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posted by martyb on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:28AM   Printer-friendly
from the what-about-the-ones-you-did-NOT-catch? dept.

Chinese authorities have detained a software developer for selling computer services that allow internet users to evade China's "Great Firewall," which blocks access to thousands of websites, from Facebook to Twitter to some news outlets, a media report said Monday.

The software developer, who is from the coastal province of Jiangsu, near Shanghai, was arrested in late August and held for three days for building a small business to sell virtual private networks, the Global Times newspaper reported, citing the official Xinhua news agency. VPNs create encrypted links between computers and allow Chinese web users to see blocked sites by hiding the address from government filters.

Subscribers paid 10 yuan, or about $1.50, for one month of the developer's service. Authorities also seized the developer's earnings, which totaled 1,080 yuan, or about $165.

Some internet businessmen have faced far harsher punishments: Earlier this year, a 26-year-old entrepreneur who sold VPN services in Dongguan, near Hong Kong, was sentenced to nine months in prison.

How far away from having this happen in the West are we, really?


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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @12:29PM (22 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @12:29PM (#570153)

    How far away from having this happen in the West are we, really?

    blocks access to thousands of websites, from Facebook to Twitter to some news outlets,

    And others. The problem here is two fold.

        1. China being wrong for blocking entire services
        2. China being right to recognize mob mentality as being largest threat to social cohesion

    China has allowed its nationals to access the internet, more or less. To engage on its own terms between members of its community. But China also recognizes that the Internet is not the "farting rainbow la-la land" that some ideologists want us to believe. So China cracks down on dissent, and more important, on unauthorized sources of information.

    In "the west" we seem to began to realize the failings of the Internet. The less educated crowd is easily swayed by fake news and propaganda aimed at simply destabilizing the society. All you need is to polarize the society to fuck with it and make it ineffective on the world stage. The US is prime example here. A nation that has been a superpower diplomatically (both through financial and military backing) has been reduced to level of a demented idiot. And I mean this on the world stage - no one is taking US seriously at the moment. There is no more "deals", everything has been paused to say the least, waiting.

    The bottom line is, many ideologues view censorship as emphatically evil. But it is not so - it is simply a tool. Without such a tool, we would still believe that earth is flat, it is 6000 years old and there is no such thing as evolution or man induced climate change and other realities. And before you say "that's bullshit", think what is education. Education is filtered ideas and knowledge. It is censored knowledge based on scientific tests.

    So what is China's censorship goals? They are very simple - to avoid social unrest. They want to avoid insurrections and revolutions (like in Syria) brought by polarization of society...

    In any society, for members of that society to make valid decisions, they need to be informed. And in today's world, it is too easy to get overwhelmed with bullshit "news" - where ratings are more important than the content and accuracy of information they deliver. So no, don't point your finger at China for trying to maintain order. Point the finger straight at "the west" in allowing "ratings" to skew narrative towards strife and sensationalism (see the amplification of terrorism via media, mob mentality (like Arab Spring), resurgence of extremism, increased radicalism and racism, etc.).

    China has problems, like pollution and corruption. Blocking jitter and friendface is *not* it.

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by fustakrakich on Tuesday September 19 2017, @02:22PM (4 children)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @02:22PM (#570186) Journal

      Nah, for mob mentality, I still blame the mob. You are welcome to use the temporary insanity defense. But turning people into the state's bots is not cool. Censorship is still evil. And your propaganda sounds suspicious

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:18PM (#570210)

        I think its long past time we stopped thinking SN is too small for shills to bother with.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:25PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:25PM (#570215)

        To paraphrase you, fustakrakich, "what is the state made of, if not people? [soylentnews.org]" Didn't you say that the Chinese people have the government they deserve?

        How can you possibly object to an evil done by a government against its people when just prior you memed support for an evil done by a government against its people? Do you have any solid principles to operate from beyond just trying to spout short text snippets you think will be popular within the confines of a single article, hoping that while you willingly attach your name to each increasingly contradictory comment, that no one will notice how schizophrenic your writings as a whole are?

        Beep, boop.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:12PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:12PM (#570309)

          Quiet! You clattering contraption!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:49PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:49PM (#570322)

            Quiet! You clattering contraption!

            Are you unaware about what is said about doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results? It's insanity. Are you insane?

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by jmorris on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:11PM (13 children)

      by jmorris (4844) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:11PM (#570233)

      As an AC post it is unimportant babbling. It is the mods who should be embarrassed unto the point of self immolation. Or worse, they really DO agree and this IS what Progs believe. Not sure which is more terrifying, Stupidity on this scale or Elemental Evil this unafraid of showing itself.

      So much here to work with, where to start....

      The less educated crowd is easily swayed by fake news and propaganda aimed at simply destabilizing the society.

      Yea, because it is SO much better when the #FakeNews is fed in a steady stream from the organs of the State. Ever actually LOOKED at what Chinese State run media push out to the masses? Or to shiv ya closer to the bone, do you even read the New York Times? Ok, those to not "destabilize" the State, but they destroy civil society by eliminating the possibility of an informed citizenry and thus make self governance a joke. But then most Progs agree that the State is the prime mover and the masses are sheep to be lead, slaughtered, etc. to serve the needs of the rulers.

      Not saying the Internet has lived up to its potential, but it has certainly done more in the two decades where it has been widespread enough to matter to make it possible to be informed. It just ain't easy yet. Two words: Matt Drudge.

      But it is not so - it is simply a tool. Without such a tool, we would still believe that earth is flat, it is 6000 years old and there is no such thing as evolution or man induced climate change and other realities.

      No. That is not how Science works. At all. The allies of Galileo didn't lock up the Pope and his Cardinals, ban them from publishing, etc. until they agreed to accept the Heliocentric view. He won the argument because once the telescope existed it was impossible to maintain the opposing position. The 6000 year old Earth theory likewise had problems standing up to reality. If you have to censor the opposition you can be fairly certain that you are in a POLITICAL disagreement, not a Scientific one. You f*cking morons can't really tell the difference anymore, everything is political.

      There can be no censorship in Science for many reasons. But the biggest is this: There is no Science Pope decreeing what the official and Holy position of Science is this year. No Al Gore is not the Science Pope. Neil DeGrasse Tyson is not the Science Pope. Bill Nye is not the Science Pope. There is no Science Pope.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:18PM (4 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:18PM (#570238) Journal

        Fucked up world we live in where I end up agreeing with you on just about anything. Oh well...

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:41PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:41PM (#570251)

          Naw it is just that China is the great evil and we must use that caricature to promote "the land of the free". I still agree with most of the statements, I just doubt their authenticity. At the very least the statements are profoundly naive and quite hypocritical given his statements in the past. As long as the Great Evils are coming from private corporations it is OK because it is a "choice" to use whatever Great Evil you need. He just sidesteps the fact that these giants are able to purchase their power and are intertwined with the gov. But of course the blame only goes to the gov, unless its an evil west coast tech company. #hypocrisy #grudgingapproval

          If he is a real person he needs to broaden his perspective so he can step outside the partisan divide. Corrupted power is non-partisan as the DNC and GOP have made painfully clear.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:04PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:04PM (#570422) Journal

            I still agree with most of the statements, I just doubt their authenticity.

            That sounds just as authentic a criticism as an American Chinese meal.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:58PM (1 child)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:58PM (#570284) Journal

          The only one I hear advocating internet censorship is our Republican President, not exactly a Progressive.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:29PM

            by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:29PM (#570342) Homepage Journal

            Loser terrorists must be dealt with in a much tougher manner. The internet is their main recruitment tool which we must cut off and use better! We're losing a lot of people because of the internet and we have to do something. We have to go see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them, maybe in certain areas closing that internet up in some way. Somebody will say, "oh, freedom of speech, freedom of speech." These are foolish people. We've got to maybe do something with the internet because they are recruiting by the thousands, they are leaving our country and then when they come back, we take them back. We've got to close our borders to people who have gone on the internet and become terrorists. Who go on the internet, become terrorists, leave, and come back with bad electronics. Bringing bad electronics on a plane, very big danger. I warned Sergey. Warned the Russian foreign minister about it. But I never mentioned the word or the name Israel. Never mentioned Israel in that conversation. They’re all saying I did, that's fake news. Another story wrong. Never mentioned the word Israel. 🇺🇸

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:55PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:55PM (#570254)

        There can be no censorship in Science for many reasons.

        You are missing the point of what I ever meant by *censorship*. Censorship is also weeding out the crap from the real. Any filtering is CENSORSHIP, be that self-censorship or otherwise. People like Germany censor NAZI messages - is it so bad?

        Science censors "alternative views" through scientific consensus.

        What is amazing to me is people being indoctrinated into "censorship == evil" with same same zeal as "communism == evil" and then labelling anything and everything into the appropriate category. Socialized healthcare? COMMUNISM! EVIL!

        The entire point of what I tried to make is

        1. censorship is not evil, just like a knife is not evil
        2. we are already censoring all over the place, but we call it "manners" and "editing"
        3. are we really going to compare NYT to InfoWars? People want credible source of information. That's why there are JOBS like journalist.

        As for China, I already wrote what China views as main problem - strife and public unrest.

        But then most Progs agree that the State is the prime mover and the masses are sheep to be lead, slaughtered, etc. to serve the needs of the rulers.

        Really? So one way you argue "science" and then you argue that only "progs" .... right ... so I'm certain it is the "progs" that want creationism to be taught as "alternative view" ??? You know, because "they" are the sheep after all.

        Maybe get off your high-horse and look at the world objectively for once. Because you are also one of the "progs" being led straight to the slaughter. Except your "prime mover" is Breitbart hole-see. I mean you are already in the hole - you've already decreed that only "progs" are capable of being led to slaughter, while you are already being led by your nose ring and don't even know it.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:09PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:09PM (#570261)

          People like Germany censor NAZI messages - is it so bad?

          Yes. Although it is futile to explain this to an authoritarian cretin of the highest order, government censorship is, in fact, wrong. I'm not sure why anyone would ever trust the government to decide what should and should not be censored after considering the countless ways all governments violated people's rights in the past and in the present, but I guess I answered my own question in that last sentence.

          What is amazing to me is people being indoctrinated into "censorship == evil"

          Supporting free speech is natural for anyone who cares about freedom.

          2. we are already censoring all over the place, but we call it "manners" and "editing"

          Now you're going to argue that self-censorship is similar to government censorship? They have totally different implications. Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this equivocation.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:21PM

          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:21PM (#570333) Homepage
          > Any filtering is CENSORSHIP [...]

          Bollocks. Filtering is *only* censorship if you are *in control of the medium*. Noone controls the media within which academic journals operate - if you don't like the filtering that reviewers and editors perform in your field of study you are free to find or found an alternative journal.

          Note that I'm not saying science is a bed of roses,far from it, it's rife with corruption because there's too much money dependence, but groupthink is not censorship; if anything, it's an opportunity to have a voice that really stands out from the crowd, at least if you're demonstrably more right (i.e. less wrong) than the others.
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by khallow on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:01AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:01AM (#570440) Journal

          You are missing the point of what I ever meant by *censorship*. Censorship is also weeding out the crap from the real. Any filtering is CENSORSHIP, be that self-censorship or otherwise. People like Germany censor NAZI messages - is it so bad?

          That is wrong. Words have meaning. From a dictionary [oxforddictionaries.com]:

          The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

          In particular, it doesn't mean editing, it doesn't mean people filtering out crap from real, or peer review, etc.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:30PM (2 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:30PM (#570268) Journal

        But then most Progs agree that the State is the prime mover and the masses are sheep to be lead, slaughtered, etc. to serve the needs of the rulers.

        The tragedy of it is that the State does not achieve the progressive goals progressives want, and yet they cling to the State and ask themselves 'what can be done?' And as long as they're not the ones being personally affected by its dysfunction, they make expressions of guilt and remorse and throw their hands up to the heavens, asking, "Why, God, why," but accept it. It never occurs to them that the State is a human construct, and can be re-constructed or deconstructed if it does not work.

        This is true even of the deepest blue places where Republican opposition is non-existent. New York City is such a place. There are a mere handful of Republican candidates for anything, and they never have a snowball's chance in Hell of beating the Democrat. The city's education system is totally fucked, totally racist, totally segregated. And in the city's most progressive neighborhoods, the bluest of the bluest of the blue, they play along with the fucked, racist, segregated system as long as their own children aren't personally affected. As long as their children are excused, they don't give an actual damn, and do nothing about it beyond limp protestation about how unfair the world is. The people in charge of that system, who could absolutely change it, throw their hands up in the air and say, "What can we do," knowing full well that changing anything is riskier to their careers than the status quo.

        That is why the State as an entity is no solution to mankind's ills, until such time as we have further perfected humanity itself. The State, any state, has to be regarded as a temporary convention to order collective action, but it cannot be reified the way it has or evil ensues. We're living through that evil now.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:55PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:55PM (#570281) Journal

        they really DO agree and this IS what Progs believe.

        "Loser terrorists must be dealt with in a much tougher manner," he wrote. "The internet is their main recruitment tool which we must cut off & use better!" - Donald J Trump four days ago

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:34PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:34PM (#570250)

      The Chinese government approves this message.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:28PM (#570315)

      fuck you, you authoritarian piece of shit.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:57PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:57PM (#570418) Journal

      1. China being wrong for blocking entire services
      2. China being right to recognize mob mentality as being largest threat to social cohesion

      No, the Chinese government is the largest threat to social cohesion. I grant it's relatively competent now and adequately filling in for the roles that governments traditional hold sway over. But get an incompetent but determined government combined with their contempt for their citizens and you have a recipe for eventual civil war. That can kill a lot more people than mob mentality can.

  • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:04PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:04PM (#570169)

    The (l)users are fucked... but is that any news? Have you ever seen a regular Joe setting up a chain of retransmitters he built himself out of discarded/stolen electronics, to access the net at 5 kilobytes per minute, in order to *CENSORED* some enemy *CENSORED* (ehehe) and to escape the attribution? I mean, these... user things that infest modern networks... i suppose you could call them people, they are so easily stopped by most trivial filtering...

    There are ways to resist, and ways to evade. But don't expect anyone to tell you how. If you do not dedicate your useless life to study of communication protocols and exploits, why should you have same freedom from punishment as someone who does?

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:15PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:15PM (#570171)

      ... is this someone from the Chinese govt. defending their policy?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:58PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:58PM (#570181)

        i wish i was employed. Also not defending anyone.

        It is wrong of Chinese government to do such things, but since they are a vile, hierarchical and oppressive organisation, as any government is, they will continue with their bullshit.

        It is probably lack of coffee, that made me express my thoughts on the subject so badly. For that, i apologize. My overall point was that relying on third party to magically grant you access through enemy firewall is not a good solution for you.

        In my opinion, the best solution is to find some flaw in enemy systems, and use it quietly, in a way that is not attributable to your IRL personality. Otherwise you are placing trust in someone whom you cannot verify, and that is unacceptable.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @02:33PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @02:33PM (#570190)

          i wish i was employed.

          Well then you're in luck! SoylentNews always has work for untalented losers. Can you code a regex?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:29PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:29PM (#570431)

            Until the other site (from which the original codebase was derived) starts doing Unicode[1], has an I-already-read-that feature, does everything without JavaScript, and Degrades Gracefully, I suggest that you STFU.

            [1] 18 years and still nothing; S/N had Unicode support within 6 months.

            -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:58AM (1 child)

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:58AM (#570462) Journal

              I'd also add that the guys managing the SN codebase regularly publish what they're working on, which they do for free. They also take community feedback seriously. The slashdot guys get paid, don't give a fuck what their community thinks, and try to force-feed them what nobody wants.

              Take a moment and thank the people of SN who keeps the lights running, the coders and the editors.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @03:13AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @03:13AM (#570514)

                You forgot to say "And Fuck Beta"

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:45PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @01:45PM (#570177)

      mean, these... user things that infest modern networks... i suppose you could call them people, they are so easily stopped by most trivial filtering...

      A trivial filter a day keeps the Dick Niggers away. Oh wait. No it doesn't. They just dig their dicks deeper into your pussy.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:21PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:21PM (#570213)

        lol how does this pass through that filter? You don't even need regex to match one single phrase used repeatedly. Also, pretty sure a filter is censorship. Care to weigh in ANYONE from SN leadership? No not editors, people who actually have a say in how SN is run.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:20PM (2 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:20PM (#570240) Journal

          The poster might be using some kind of code injection or similar attack for this, or might be using unicode codepoints instead of plain ascii. There's always the possibility it's actually one of the staff, but that's a little tinfoil even for me.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:54PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:54PM (#570253)

            I wouldn't put it past TMB as a massive troll of the more liberal users here. The text is eventually processed to be displayed, and it is currently pure text on the page so it is still trivial to search for a specific phrase and no regex is needed. Since he has access to the codebase it should not be difficult for him to apply the filter after the post has been regularly processed.

            Personally I think it may be time to work on decentralized models. I just took a look at the slashcode github repo and the last commit was from April, where is TMBs filter code? This site is running in "benevolent dictator" mode and I for one do not trust it. The anonymity protections are trivial and TMB even said it was possible for him to dig through the database and unmask IPs.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:49PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:49PM (#570277)

            The usual. Unicode lookalike letters, HTML encoded characters. Buzzard will save us from bad posting by dumping untested regex into the lameness filter and breaking comment posting for everyone. As a staff member, Buzzard should know better.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:16PM (4 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:16PM (#570208)

    Honestly, what did this guy expect? I could have told him right away that this was a stupid business plan. China obviously put the Great Firewall in place for a reason, and has banned VPNs for getting around it. Selling VPN service isn't anywhere near lucrative enough to justify the risks; he made out with a pathetic $165 (108 subscriber-months of service) for his trouble, and could very well spend time in prison like that other guy in TFS. And to my knowledge, VPN traffic is pretty hard to hide; it's hard to crack because of the encryption, so it keeps your actual data private, but it doesn't hide the fact that you're using it, so it's pretty easy for whoever's running the firewall to look for that traffic.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:25PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:25PM (#570216)

      That makes me wonder: Are there any steganographic internet protocols? For example, you apparently just do an unencrypted video chat (video because it causes huge amounts of data where you could hide something), but covertly there's a TCP/IP tunnel hidden in the video streams?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:55PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @07:55PM (#570326)

      maybe everyone is not a complete skank like you? maybe he did it to fight his evil government despite being surrounded by ungrateful suck ass whores like you?

      insightful? you people are retarded.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @02:58PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @02:58PM (#570629)

      And what makes you think that reason was to stop every VPN connection? If it was, they would all be stopped. Like you said it's almost trivial to detect.

      It's almost like they want to restrict access but not stop it completely. So why not sell a product if it's so obviously allowed/tolerated? Hundreds of other people do it. Literally millions of people use them.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:22PM (24 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:22PM (#570214)

    How far away from having this happen in the West are we, really?

    Very, very far (at least in the US). What kind of question is this? For better or worse, freedom of speech is enshrined in the US Constitution, and even over in the EU, data privacy laws are very strong (much, much stronger than in the US actually, but without the "free speech" angle). Moreover, VPNs are used extensively in the west by corporations and governments for security reasons. IANAL, but I'm quite sure banning VPN use would require some very fundamental changes to our laws. However, the government could try passing laws making it easy for the government to eavesdrop on VPN communications with a warrant, like requiring a back door or similar, but they've tried that kind of thing before and it's gone over like a lead balloon, plus VPNs are implemented with FOSS software, so there's no central company to go to to force into implementing a back-door, so even if they passed a law, enforcing it would be pretty impossible.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:44PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @03:44PM (#570225)

      Very, very far (at least in the US). What kind of question is this? For better or worse, freedom of speech is enshrined in the US Constitution

      I'm inclined to agree with you in general. However, US internet is controlled almost exclusively by large corporations who are incestuously involved with US government. Is it really that far-fetched for yet another Executive Order in the wake of some inevitable crisis which demands that certain content on the Internet be blocked or filtered from equipment they control? Similar things have already occurred: Cogent Networks blocked access to The Pirate Bay earlier this year. [torrentfreak.com]

      Yes, it is expected that there would be a large civilian outcry from the US government deciding to censor the Internet. That sort of outcry has already happened in the past and it's hard to see what came of it: during the bankster bailouts a few years ago, USians demanded that their elected representatives NOT bail the bankrupt bankers out by 300 to one. The "representatives" gave the banksters a blank check anyway, and while a bunch of self-proclaimed "Tea Party politicians" later got elected, they were all corrupt and nothing significant changed.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:03PM (3 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:03PM (#570230)

        Is it really that far-fetched for yet another Executive Order in the wake of some inevitable crisis which demands that certain content on the Internet be blocked or filtered from equipment they control? Similar things have already occurred: Cogent Networks blocked access to The Pirate Bay earlier this year.

        Blocking TPB can be justified by claiming that the site only exists to support illegal activities (even though that isn't completely true, some torrents are perfectly legal like Linux ISOs). You can't really claim that about VPN use. And Executive Orders aren't sovereign; they can be challenged legally. The big thing to remember is that MANY large corporations rely on VPNs for their security; it's how employees away from corporate facilities do business-related work. One thing that US government simply *cannot* get away with is anything that all the corporations would be completely against.

        USians demanded that their elected representatives NOT bail the bankrupt bankers out by 300 to one. The "representatives" gave the banksters a blank check anyway, and while a bunch of self-proclaimed "Tea Party politicians" later got elected, they were all corrupt and nothing significant changed.

        Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. But what the voters wanted isn't really relevant; what did the *corporations* want? Well, they wanted blank checks, so that's what happened. What do the corporations want in regard to VPNs? They certainly don't want VPNs banned; that isn't going to help them in any way, and will actively hurt them.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:14PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:14PM (#570264)

          Blocking TPB can be justified by claiming that the site only exists to support illegal activities

          I don't think it can be justified at all, regardless of the arguments one uses. Where is the free speech in censorship?

          Also, the US has free speech zones, obscenity laws, FCC censorship, NSLs, and several other forms of government censorship that are all unconstitutional (no matter of what the courts say). Better than other countries? I would say so. But good? Not at all.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:58PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:58PM (#570439)

          Really starkly revealing that you're one of the 'nothing to fear, nothing to hide' crowd. I'm quite surprised to see that viewpoint promulgated here, given everything we know as fact about the .gov - not to mention large corporate players (or have I repeated myself?) - surveilling literally everything you do online.

          You absolutely can, should, and must assert that VPN use is not synonymous with illegal activity. It is synonymous with a desire for privacy, nothing more. That could represent piracy, or it could represent a desire not to be tracked. Or someone in witness protection. Perhaps a security researcher. The list goes on.

          Literally everyone should be using a VPN today, routinely. Just like literally everyone should be using Signal messaging, and HTTPS, routinely.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:30AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:30AM (#570479)

            HTTPS as traditionally implemented is completely broken. Rogue Certificate Authorities that issue wildcard certs to enable you to be transparently man-in-the-middled are commonplace, and even if you take the trouble to nuke all Chinese CAs, etc., you still have to deal with US National Security Letters. Firefox devs are also fouling their product by soon breaking their own browser by not allowing it to use HTTP anymore.

            The only real solution is a new technical one, and some details on work being done on it can be found at youbroketheinternet.org [youbroketheinternet.org].

      • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:47PM (3 children)

        by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:47PM (#570414) Homepage Journal

        during the bankster bailouts a few years ago, USians demanded that their elected representatives NOT bail the bankrupt bankers out by 300 to one. The "representatives" gave the banksters a blank check anyway

        What was immediately necessary was preventing the money supply from collapsing. Making sure the banks had the cash to back peoples' deposits was the key mechanism for it. It was loaned to them, or provided in exchange for equity in the banks. To a substantial extent, much of this was repaid later and I keep hearing reports of the government actually making a profit on the deal, longterm.

        When this was not done in the 1929 crash, it led directly to the depression.

        The sad thing wasn't the bailout; it was that the criminal behaviour of the banks was never prosecuted.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:50PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:50PM (#570435) Journal

          What was immediately necessary was preventing the money supply from collapsing. Making sure the banks had the cash to back peoples' deposits was the key mechanism for it. It was loaned to them, or provided in exchange for equity in the banks. To a substantial extent, much of this was repaid later and I keep hearing reports of the government actually making a profit on the deal, longterm.

          While I grant there is some truth to your first part, let's keep in mind the background to that alleged profit. It is alleged [washingtonpost.com] that the federal government made $15 billion on TARP by 2015. But it spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 trillion over the span of time between 2009 and 2015 inclusive. In addition, the Federal Reserve ran a multi-trillion dollar money printing operation. There was plenty of opportunity to run a shell game, particularly given the federal government's legendary shoddy accounting.

          My take is that the federal government turned a profit on TARP by loaning the banks and other businesses in question money at cheap rates to pay off the TARP loans. It's book cooking at its finest.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:15AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:15AM (#570446)

          was immediately necessary

          This would be a good point to mention that the reason the banks were in hot water was that that what the banksters were doing was CRIMINAL.

          When this happened years before with the Savings & Loans, the feds moved in and took over the S&Ls.
          S&L executives were sent to prison.

          ...and Iceland didn't bail out their banksters.
          Again, the crooks were sent to prison (26 by my last count).
          Iceland had to tighten their belts for a bit, but they're doing OK now.

          What USA.gov did WRT banksters was Neoliberalism/Crony Capitalism.
          The crooks and their enablers should all be in prison.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:43AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @12:43AM (#570460)

            What USA.gov did WRT banksters was Neoliberalism/Crony Capitalism.
            The crooks and their enablers should all be in prison.

            I don't want to pay those scumbags' room and board.

            I might be willing to cough up a couple of bucks for a bullet for each of them, tho.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by lentilla on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:05PM (11 children)

      by lentilla (1770) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:05PM (#570231)

      I'm less optimistic than you. I think there is a very real possibility that we will see this happen in "the West" within the next few decades.

      At least China is honest about being a totalitarian regime. It won't happen the same way in the West but the results will be similar. We just need to set the stage. Globalisation has brought the third world's problems onto the first world's doorstep: it's no longer a case of sending some crates of food, a handful of doctors, and regretful and easily forgotten Sunday prayers - the refugees now arrive in planes. Globalisation and technology have additionally resulted in increasing under-employment in the first world.

      As the first poster in this thread opines: "The less educated crowd is easily swayed by fake news and propaganda aimed at simply destabilising the society." All it will take is another "9/11"-style event, coupled with unsustainable under-employment and wealth disparity - and the mob will rise. They will clamour for their governments to "do something". And do something they will. They will tighten the screws.

      Don't think that business use of VPNs and availability of open source cryptography will stem the tide. Our lords and masters will demand the keys. Yes, their past efforts have (mostly) failed, but remember by this time the populace will have been convinced it is in their best interests.

      Mine is a pretty bleak vision of the future. On the bright side, history tells us that whatever dark age humanity might face in the medium term will be replaced with another renaissance in the longer term. That; or total annihilation; in which case life goes on, just perhaps not with humans.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:52PM (10 children)

        by jmorris (4844) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @04:52PM (#570252)

        Nah, we see how censorship will come. It is already happening, haven't you been watching the whole Dailystormer fiasco? Obama gave ICANN to the U.N., which has no concept of free speech since it is a Parliament of Tyrants. So that solved the problem on that end. Dailystormer was suddenly banned from DNS and zero registrars would allow them to move their domain... assuming Google can eventually be sued hard enough to release it. They have found temporary refuge by somehow scamming a domain from Iceland, their laws require an act of Parliament nuke a domain and it promptly collapsed (for unrelated tawdry reasons) so the Powers that Be shot and missed em by a hair. For now. But properly registered domainname or no, the name doesn't resolve everywhere because Cisco explicitly refuses to resolve the name. More such "exceptions" will follow.

        And for 90% of people, the threat of being banned from Twitter and Facebook are more than enough to assure compliance. And they are already way beyond that. Remember, they aren't banning people for posts ON those services anymore, they are declaring individual People "unpersons" and removing them entirely from the normal Internet. Social media, Paypal, dating sites, the word goes out from somewhere and suddenly you don't have an account anywhere. Then they piously declare that "these are simply private companies, no 1st Amendment problems here."

        ISPs already deeply meddle with traffic wherever they are able. I had to reprogram to an outside DNS resolver to get around SuddenLink tampering. All they would need to do is block or redirect any outside DNS. Then they will make VPN access a "premium" Business Class service. Then require a business license to sign up for that level. Work from home? Well for a small fee they can allow you to access a single registered endpoint at your employer, do you have a note from your boss on company letterhead? Just keep turning the screws. Banning corporate VPNs on the backbone would be madness, they would have people shot because it is a matter of life and death to big business. But they can fairly easily make it so 90% of ordinary people have to go through the ISP monitor proxy. And they are government granted monopolies, think they are going to refuse the Intel services having a peek? There have already been ISPs pushing wildcard certs in "installation kits" so they can deep packet inspect https traffic and insert local ads, although that got slowed down by the device revolution.

        See the pattern? No heavy handed government censorship. After all, Trump can still win an election, so can't trust that much power to the overt State yet, best keep it safely and closely held down in the Deep State where The Party lives and writes the Narrative.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:03PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:03PM (#570257)

          Ha!!

          Perhaps I was too hasty in my previous judgments. It loos like perhaps you are finally seeing the "private business" model as the sham it is. It isn't the glorious individualist liberty loving fantasy we're sold, it is simply compartmentalized government. I think we need some major amendments to the constitution and bill of rights to cover these violations of citizen's freedoms. Common carrier status for ISPs, digital rights act, decentralized DNS, and severe restrictions upon EULAs that require private entities to respect the laws of the land.

          Corporations != people. Private business != above the law.

          Yes this opens up the internet for use by shitty fucking people but the alternative is dystopia. Repressing humanity has always resulted in violent blowback, and every liberal minded person I know is against censorship. Some can be temporarily blinded by their emotions, but a quick conversation usually restores sanity with little fuss. Conservatives? I'm not as sure, they seem to be more strongly ruled by emotional attachment to their beliefs. But hey, jmo is decrying private businesses so fuckit anything is possible!

          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday September 19 2017, @06:11PM (8 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @06:11PM (#570289) Journal

            Don't hold your breath. J-Mo is a master of compartmentalization; he typed the above screed while completely oblivious to the fact that it undermines his free-market-uber-alles shibboleths elsewhere.

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:23PM (7 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:23PM (#570336)

              Sorry, corporations are entities CREATED by governments, and as such, are not products of the Free Market. This is illustrated quite clearly with large corporations who screw up, such as Equifax having given away all their records on millions of people via a wildly insecure server while their CSO at the time was a music major.

              In the Free Market, you personally experience the consequences of your choices, both good and pad. No golden parachutes and "fines" in lieu of criminal prosecution.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:34PM (6 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:34PM (#570347) Journal

                This free market thing sounds awesome. How do we make it? And how do we prevent corporations-in-all-but-government-charter from appearing? Or is it okay so long as they're just using their own private mercenary forces rather than Eeeeeebil Gubbamint Lawmen (TM) to force their ways on people?

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:52PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @08:52PM (#570354)

                  And a lot of versions of me on different timelines had the same problem. So a few thousand versions of me had the [yells] INGENIOUS IDEA OF BANDING TOGETHER like a herd of cattle or a school of fish, or... those people who answer questions on Yahoo! Answers.

                  So apparently the AC must have found the one link in Yahoo! Answers that brought them here :D

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:21PM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 19 2017, @10:21PM (#570400)

                  You're afraid of the possibility of an effectively unaccountable police force - so you're advocating to keep the effectively unaccountable police force to protect you from the possibility of another effectively unaccountable police force.

                  We don't prevent anything. Unaccountable corporations only exist because GOVERNMENT has deemed them to be "people", special "people" who cannot be arrested, tried, imprisoned, and/or executed. In a free market there are only people, as in regular everyday people with no legally-protected "corporate veil" to hide behind.

                  • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:45AM (1 child)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:45AM (#570484) Journal

                    You are a big fool. Humans naturally form hierarchies, and these reinforce themselves in the manner of a positive feedback: power to power, money to money, privilege to privilege, in an ever-escalating spiral. Removing any sort of check against this would only accelerate it.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @04:16AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 20 2017, @04:16AM (#570524)

                      Well, then you've got nothing to worry about. Hard to think up a more powerful combination that a mercantilist world-empire with "private" corporations pulling the strings of a massive federal government. Which is of course exactly what you have now. Enjoy that "positive" feedback!

                • (Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:47AM (1 child)

                  by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 20 2017, @01:47AM (#570486)

                  We could start by declaring every corporation that is "Too big to fail" to also be too big to exist and break them up. The Joint Stock Corporation does have certain advantages in raising large sums for really large projects so outright banning them is probably a cure worse than the disease but the current model where every doctor and accountant registers an LLC is too far in the other direction.

                  We always need to be on the lookout for "socialize the losses, but the gains are private" cronyism calling itself Capitalism. And what else is a Corporation? Investors can never be liable for more than the money spent on the stock, the officers generally have to eat a baby or something to be held personally liable, yet everybody has unlimited upside. Could we agree that publicly traded corporations should be limited to a low fixed number, forbidden from owning stock in or sharing officers with another and have a 99 year maximum lifetime? Perhaps an exception and some special rules for utilities, stable dividend paying entities with little change and little competition since they are already in bed with the government.

                  Private, closely held corporations are much more similar to partnerships and a few changes in the law could enhance that, making the principle shareholders and officers more liable for misconduct.

                  Monopolies almost always have one of two properties, a temporary accident soon corrected or a government connection creating and maintaining the monopoly. All anti-trust law is not evil either. Dangerous, but like government itself needed for certain purposes for which it is uniquely suited.

                  • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday September 20 2017, @06:29AM

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday September 20 2017, @06:29AM (#570543) Journal

                    Who are you and what have you done with the real J-Mo? Please, please, please tell me you threw him into an active volcano or something...

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by isostatic on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:27PM (2 children)

      by isostatic (365) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @05:27PM (#570267) Journal

      VPNs will still be allowed, as long as they have a government backdoor.

      The Austrialian PM is trying to: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-end-end-encryption-ban-says-laws-mathematics-dont-apply-down [eff.org]
      The UK PM (at the time) is trying to: https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/29/encryption-rhetoric-untangled/ [techcrunch.com]
      The (current) UK home secretary still wants to have backdoors, and hasn't got a clue: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-amber-rudd-doesnt-understand-10518930 [mirror.co.uk]
      The UK passed a law mandating backdoors: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/30/investigatory_powers_act_backdoors/ [theregister.co.uk]
      The US wants it https://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/16/calls-grow-for-government-back-doors-to-encryption.html [cnbc.com]

      And American and European governments are constantly pushing at this door: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/nov/18/us-europe-reignite-debate-back-door-encryption-paris-attacks [theguardian.com]

      • (Score: 2) by zeigerpuppy on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:57PM (1 child)

        by zeigerpuppy (1298) on Tuesday September 19 2017, @11:57PM (#570438)

        As an Australian; I deeply apologise for our Prime Minister's ignorance and stupidity. He has caused so much damage to internet infrastructure in Australia (by carving up the NBN for his mates to make more profit). Ignore everything he says, it's all slime.

        • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Wednesday September 20 2017, @06:24PM

          by isostatic (365) on Wednesday September 20 2017, @06:24PM (#570758) Journal

          All is forgiven. Look elsewhere in the anglosphere. We have Boris Johnson, and the Americans? Well, say no more.

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