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posted by martyb on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:35AM   Printer-friendly
from the "this-end-up" dept.

If you had big plans this weekend, David Meade regrets to inform you that the world will be ending Saturday.

Meade, a Christian numerologist and self-described "researcher," says Sept. 23 is foretold in the Bible's Book of Revelation as the day a series of catastrophic events will begin, and as a result, "a major part of the world will not be the same," the Washington Post reports.

The Bible prophecies a woman "clothed with the sun" and a "crown of 12 stars" giving birth to a boy who will "rule all the nations" while she fights off a seven-headed dragon. The woman, Meade says, is the constellation Virgo, which on Saturday will be positioned under nine stars and three planets, per Popular Mechanics.

The baby boy will be the planet Jupiter, which will be moving out of Virgo on that night.

According to Meade, who says he studied astronomy at an unspecified university in Kentucky, the great change in our world will be the result of the arrival of Nibiru, a planet famous in conspiracy circles but which astronomers say doesn't exist.

http://wnep.com/2017/09/20/researcher-says-this-saturday-will-be-the-end-of-the-world/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/09/17/the-world-as-we-know-it-is-about-to-end-again-if-you-believe-this-biblical-doomsday-claim/ (soft paywalled)


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  • (Score: 3, Funny) by maxwell demon on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:44AM (3 children)

    by maxwell demon (1608) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:44AM (#570983) Journal

    Don't worry about Saturday. The Vogon constructor fleet is approaching today!

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:13AM (2 children)

      by BsAtHome (889) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:13AM (#570993)

      One could only wish...

      Lets go to the Pub, put a brown paper bag over our head and lie down on the ground.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:21AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:21AM (#571020)

        Sigh. This happens just one month before Apple would have announced the iThumb so we could have the Dentrassi sneak us aboard...

        Oopsie, what about New Zealand. It will still be Saturday there before anyone else. Do they vanish first?

        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:29PM

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:29PM (#571443)

          I will let you know if there are problems here in New Zealand.

          Apart from the odd earthquake and too much winter rain, we seem to be OK so far, thanks for asking.

          As it happens, election day is tomorrow, Saturday 23rd, so maybe that's what Mr. Meade is worried about.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Whoever on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:54AM (25 children)

    by Whoever (4524) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:54AM (#570984) Journal

    A video published by UNSEALED, an evangelical Christian publication,

    Evangelical Christians: the same people who brought you President Donald Trump.

    As far as I can tell, they are not Christian in any meaningful way, they are just bigoted authoritarians. They can FOAD.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:07AM (17 children)

      by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:07AM (#570991)

      My but aren't you a paragon of tolerance. Curious, were you this vehement in your denunciations of the 2012 Mayan calendar "End of the World" hype machine, including that execrable and highly forgettable Hollywierd tiein project? Or is the hate reserved for Christians because they are the only religious group that hurling abuse at won't get you talked about? So brave, insulting a religion that won't cut your filthy neck in response. Come on big boy, lets hear it about the Hidden Imam, the apocalyptic prophecies driving ISIS, or the child molesting Prophet of Islam. Show us what ya got. Pussy.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:24AM (#570999)

        That's the difference.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by Aegis on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29AM

        by Aegis (6714) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29AM (#571001)

        Curious, were you this vehement in your denunciations of the 2012 Mayan calendar "End of the World" hype machine, including that execrable and highly forgettable Hollywierd tiein project?

        YES

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by letssee on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:12AM (8 children)

        by letssee (2537) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:12AM (#571086)

        If you live in the US, the evangelicals are a *lot* scarier than the muslims. And they have a lot more power to cause you trouble.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:29PM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:29PM (#571186)

          If you live in the US, the evangelicals are a *lot* scarier than the muslims.

          Why?

          And they have a lot more power to cause you trouble.

          How?

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:43PM (5 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:43PM (#571193)

            How? Electing T; waging war on science and the environment; letting billionaires write the laws; getting us into wasteful, deadly, and region-destabilizing wars...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:34PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:34PM (#571276)

              oh yeah, it's "the christians" that did all of that. lmao

              • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:34PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:34PM (#571353)

                Yes, because they blindly follow the GOP which has made all of those its primary mission.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:54PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:54PM (#571472)

                  oh yeah, it's "the christians" that did all of that. lmao

                  Yes

                  ಠ_ಠ

            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:38PM (1 child)

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:38PM (#571278) Journal

              Ok, OTHER than waging unending war, poisoning the water you drink and the air you breathe, enriching themselves via the legislative, what have the Republicans ever done to us?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:57PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:57PM (#571475)

                If you're still whining about the republicans in 2017, as opposed to illegal/criminal/unConstitutional government, which approximately 98.390712% of all government activities are, then congratulations! You've successfully been programmed in government-run schools and are now free to mingle with the rest of genpop and show off your new bracelets. Don't forget to vote!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:23PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:23PM (#571730)

          Do what!?

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:36PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:36PM (#571225) Journal

        It's that time of month for you too, huh J-Mo? Here, have one of my Midols. Take a deep breath. It sucks, but you'll get through this.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Whoever on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:01PM (4 children)

        by Whoever (4524) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:01PM (#571291) Journal

        Ah, the classic "What About" deflection. Not going to bite. Well, maybe I'll nibble.

        Some of these groups are highly destructive to life on this planet. Because they believe that the Rapture/Armageddon is imminent, they don't care about the future. Which means they don't care about the environment.

        They are dangerous death cults. They are a danger to all of us. This applies to all groups who think that life on this planet is going end soon, due to forces outside of our control: Christians, Muslims, Druids, whatever: all of them represent a danger to society.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:46PM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:46PM (#571315) Journal

          Druids? How did they get pulled into end-of-the-world nonsense? A quick search finds no Druid apocalypse.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Whoever on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:34PM

            by Whoever (4524) on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:34PM (#571351) Journal

            Hyperbole.

            Actually, I suspect the Druids might be better stewards of the planet than most.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:25PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:25PM (#571731)

            Try doing a slow search. Quick searches usually end in nothing found.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:18PM (#571340)

          Sad that you didn't get into the thread earlier.
          You might already be at +5.

          death cults [...] are a danger to all of us

          Exactly.

          ...and in the meantime, just in case you Bible thumpers got the date wrong, "stewardship" means "don't screw up everything for subsequent generations".
          ...and "dominion over the Earth" does not mean "you get to exploit everything and leave the ruins along your path".

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by unauthorized on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:00AM (4 children)

      by unauthorized (3776) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:00AM (#571011)

      Evangelical Christians: the same people who brought you President Donald Trump.

      <sarcasm>Yeah, the reason President Donald Duck won must be because all those former Obama voters who went with him suddenly found Jesus! I'm sure it had nothing to do with the disenfranchisement of the working class and the attempts of the opposition to push two-faced corporate shill into office.</sarcasm>

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:32AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:32AM (#571062)

        Evangelical Christians: the same people who brought you President Donald Trump.

        <sarcasm>Yeah, the reason President Donald Duck won must be because all those former Obama voters who went with him suddenly found Jesus! I'm sure it had nothing to do with the disenfranchisement of the working class and the attempts of the opposition to push a less obnoxious two-faced corporate shill into office.</sarcasm>

        There. FTFY.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:03PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:03PM (#571328)

          Not that I disagree with the general premise that The Big 2 offered horrible candidates in November, but I'd like to know where you buy your micrometers.
          The resolution must be fantastic to have found a significant difference between the 2.

          N.B. The person/party that I voted for at least had an actual outline for an actual jobs program [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [ontheissues.org]
          ...which overlapped with other critical issues.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:00AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:00AM (#571477)

            I'd like to know where you buy your micrometers.
            The resolution must be fantastic to have found a significant difference between the 2.

            While we're picking at nits, I would have found a new war in Syria against Russia a mite irritating.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by meustrus on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:24PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:24PM (#571159)

        Hey, Obama was more Christian than McCain and less Mormon than Romney. That counts for something among these people. The only snag was those losers screaming about him being a secret Muslim.

        And never forget that so far the #1 accomplishment of the Trump presidency is nominating a right-winger to the Supreme Court. It's the so-called evangelicals that care about that, not the disenfranchised working class.

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:16AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:16AM (#571056)

      As far as I can tell, evangelical Christians drive the majority of US politics at all levels. It's unheard of for an elected candidate to make any progress without beating the bible a bit. Even sportspeople and beauty pagent winners go on about it.

      It's disgusting, it's started to become noticeable again in many "developed" nations, but the USA has never even attempted to pretend to be either secular or even quietly faithful rather than chest-beatingly evangelical.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:30PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:30PM (#571347)

        You have to recognize that the place was populated^W invaded by rejects from other places.

        The Pilgrims and The Puritans left England for the western hemisphere because the brand of religion there wasn't whacko enough for them.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:02AM (4 children)

    by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:02AM (#570989)

    These days we seem to get a prediction like this more than once per year. Meh, in a world gone mad these things happen because people can't cope. Ain't likely to get better anytime soon either.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:26AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:26AM (#571024) Journal

      These days we seem to get a prediction like this more than once per year. Meh, in a world gone mad these things happen because people can't cope. Ain't likely to get better anytime soon either.

      By that criteria, the "Crazy Years" probably started when humanity came up with a language good enough to describe the end of the world. Maybe 100,000 BCE or so...

    • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:33AM (1 child)

      by acid andy (1683) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:33AM (#571028) Homepage Journal

      Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day....

      --
      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 5, Funny) by acid andy on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:35AM

        by acid andy (1683) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:35AM (#571031) Homepage Journal

        ......and it seems an unclosed tag is right one word per post.....

        --
        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Virindi on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:11AM

      by Virindi (3484) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:11AM (#571084)

      These days we seem to get a prediction like this more than once per year.

      Actually, this kind of thing has been popular for a long time. By all accounts, 1844 was as big as 2012! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment)

      Google found this funny page for me: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_of_the_end_of_the_world [rationalwiki.org]

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:17AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:17AM (#570995)

    Sure that wasn't astrology?
    ...with a minor in homeopathy?

    -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:22AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:22AM (#570997)

      So there is some alignment of planets and Virgo. It happens. So, are you going to panic Agent 42?
      See y'all Monday.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:20PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:20PM (#571157) Journal

        In this passage Luke 21:5-37 [biblegateway.com], Jesus is talking about the end.

        See verse Luke 21:25 in particular:

        “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

        There in a single verse is mentioned signs in the heavens, and signs like the nations perplexed by powerful storms. It can also be observed that Luke 21:25 has the numbers 21 and 25. On Aug 21, there was a solar eclipse in the US. On Aug 25, hurricane Harvey made landfall in the US. Two highly unlikely events in a single week. A description of two such events in a single verse.

        Trump must be aware of this important information in order to make good policy decisions.

        OMG, major update: earthquakes mentioned in verse 11 of the same chapter! That must mean, um. . . oh, I know! . . . that must mean Mexico should have paid for the wall!

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:53PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:53PM (#571127)

      I think it was gastronomy or maybe cosmetology.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by engblom on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:24AM (45 children)

    by engblom (556) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:24AM (#570998)

    He is not a Christian. If he would be a Christian, he would listen to Christ. This is what Christ said:

    Mathew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

    The only thing a Bible following Christian can say is that we are getting closer to the end and by looking at the signs of the time given in the Bible, we might say it is a certain probability it will happen during our lifetime, but not even that is sure. After all it is also said in the Bible that 1000 years for us is like one day for God.

    If he would have let the Bible interpret itself, he would know what is described in this chapter, instead of doing the most strange interpretation anyone can come up with.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29AM (31 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29AM (#571002)

      The people who study Ancient Klingon are at least doing something worthwhile with their lives.

      Why do people find the Bible even remotely interesting as a guide for life? It pails in comparison to the literature of more modern times.

      • (Score: 4, Disagree) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:51AM (17 children)

        by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:51AM (#571008)

        Evolution my boy, evolution. The Bible has proven its fitness to serve as a basis for a major civilization's moral and social code. All of the proposed replacements since the later portion of the Enlightenment have crashed and burned. Badly.

        Considering the body count most of the failures have ran up, and the one our current failing attempt is likely to achieve soon as it collapses, we might want to consider the wisdom of Chesterton's Fence and attempt to understand the social technology embodied in it before the next attempt to modify our society away from the proven pattern in it. Because it is a veritable certainty that come the collapse of the current West's societies there will be a major religious revival, there is ALWAYS a major revival when things go to tits up.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:12AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:12AM (#571015)

          The Bible has proven its fitness to serve as a basis for a major civilization's moral and social code.

          Ha ha ha ah ha! I cannot wait to see what the Eth makes of this! Jmorris is a jew? And an "observant jew"? Wow, shit just got real. Bible suck, y'all. It says you cannot charge interest, because that is usury. So all capitalists are going to hell. But we knew that already, right? So where does jmorris go? Hmmm.

        • (Score: 4, Funny) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:19AM (2 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:19AM (#571019) Journal

          there is ALWAYS a major revival when things go to tits up

          Not in things that really matter, no.
          Case at point, the religious sentiment revival pales in significance when compared with the fact a certain part of my body experiences only a minor revival when seeing some tits up.

          (grin)

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:24PM (1 child)

            by MostCynical (2589) on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:24PM (#571134) Journal

            At least you are smiling during adversity.

            --
            "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:05PM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:05PM (#571150) Journal

              At least you are smiling during adversity.

              Adversity? What adversity? Without that thing I needed to take care of, I'm left with so much spare time in my hands (grin)

              Ah, it's the religious sentiment revival you were talking about. Well, I see no reason to waste my time worrying about it, posting on S/N is evidently more profitable (double grin)

              (and no, I'm not smiling. Just triple grinning - as you most probably know, cynics use to do that)

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:26AM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:26AM (#571023)

          The past participle of "to run" is "run", not "ran".

          Also, the founders of the U.S. were Deists at best, drew on the lessons of ancient governance and philosophy, and even stated that the United States is explicitly not a Christian society; on 11 April 1823, Thomas Jefferson wrote the following to John Adams:

          The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter… we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding…

          • (Score: 2, Disagree) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:42AM (8 children)

            by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:42AM (#571045)

            I think everyone is missing the point here. But lemme me take the bait a moment and respond to the false point raised since it is a very common misconception that needs killing off anyway. The Founders were not Deists. Glenn Beck agrees with NeoReaction on one point, the importance of old books. Him and David Barton take it one step farther though and don't content themselves with reading old books on Gutenberg and Google, they collect the actual old books, manuscripts, journals, proclamations, etc. LOTS of them. Enough to remove all doubt as to the actual religious beliefs and practices of the Founders. I mean what are ya gonna believe, what your professor said about the Founders or what they actually wrote in their own handwriting?

            Almost all were mainstream (for their day) Protestant, sect mostly varying by geography which makes sense considering how they were founded. Jefferson was somewhat doubtful in some writings, less so in others, he varied a lot, especially after falling under the influence of French Revolutionary thinking. But most of what you were taught about Jefferson is as wrong as the modern rewrite of all of the Founders. Try this [wallbuilders.com] as a corrective. Paine drank the French Kool-Aid and went full retard, you should read some of the other Founders flame him, in fact you can do just that [wallbuilders.com]. Oops, so much for Franklin being a Deist too.

            Now to the point you all are missing. I was being careful to speak of the Bible as social technology, not religion. It doesn't really matter if it is "True", what matters is the code it embodies "works" better than the others tried before or after. Evolution isn't about "Truth" it is about "better".

            The French Revolution unleashed rivers of blood, a near world war and France is on the 5th Republic now. We must judge it a failure.

            Then Marx tried, and again we got rivers of blood. Hitler? More rivers of blood. While our current Secular Humanist / Progressive / Socialist civilization finishes rotting into collapse, Islam seem to be making a play... not yet rivers of blood there but some serious streams already. And of course we can look elsewhere around the world to see where many others have tried variations of the 20th Century's replacement social tech and find only misery, death and horror. DOES. NOT. WORK.

            There is a reason Europe had the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution and China or India didn't. Some cultures are more compatible with reason and science than others.

            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:00AM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:00AM (#571051) Journal

              France is on the 5th Republic now. We must judge it a failure.

              LOL.**

              ---

              **I wish those people could temper their compulsion to tell others: "You must think this way. This is The Truth! It will set you free!". Not gonna happen very soon, does it?

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:46AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:46AM (#571067)

              But lemme me take the bait a moment and respond to the false point raised since it is a very common misconception that needs killing off anyway. The Founders were not Deists. Glenn Beck agrees with NeoReaction on one point, the importance of old books. Him and David Barton take it one step farther though and don't content themselves with reading old books on Gutenberg and Google, they collect the actual old books, manuscripts, journals, proclamations, etc. LOTS of them. Enough to remove all doubt as to the actual religious beliefs and practices of the Founders. I mean what are ya gonna believe, what your professor said about the Founders or what they actually wrote in their own handwriting?

              jmorris, you refute yourself at your very beginning. Barton? And you believe him when he says he has collected "actual old books"? Have you seen the movie, "National Treasure" with Jon Voight, well known Trump supporter? This may be better evidence than what you offer here. Glenn Beck: less crazy is still crazy. Or: "Glenn Beck, the Mormon Alex Jones!" Can't trust those professors! They are the ones who actually have studied the stuff, in kind of a peer reviewed way, and stuff.

              • (Score: 3, Touché) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:19PM (1 child)

                by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:19PM (#571182)

                I have read enough old books myself to know the U.S. academy is defective and an active menace to those seeking knowledge. Started with the Progressives and Woodrow Wilson's misfits when he ran Princeton. Try it sometime for yourself. There is no excuse anymore, Gutenberg and Google provide instant access to tons of old books. Read a modern biography and then read one written before the 20th Century. Do it for any of the Founders. Deconstruction is what they call it, if you know where to look they admit to what they are doing.

                So lemme get this straight. When Beck and Barton display a modern copy of a book with the collected sayings of Washington then show an old copy of the same title with additional content, your mind would prefer to believe the old book is a carefully manufactured fake. When they show the edited copies of Alexis de Tocqueville's _Democracy in America_ promoted to modern students, that admits it is cut and then points out the pattern in the edits to make it fit Prog ideas better, that is fake? The hundred plus handwritten notes, proclamations, etc. they have shown are all fake. Even when they are showing stuff they haven't managed to buy personally, that nice lady from the auction house is an actress and is part of the scam too.

                Because Beck is nuts and going broke they haven't built the permanent museum they keep planning, but have had a couple of open house events where folks can get in to see the collection of artifacts (not just books) they are collecting. Nobody has spotted a fake artifact and raised a ruckus yet.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:58AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:58AM (#571586)

                  Because Beck is nuts and going broke they haven't built the permanent museum they keep planning, but have had a couple of open house events where folks can get in to see the collection of artifacts (not just books) they are collecting. Nobody has spotted a fake artifact and raised a ruckus yet.

                  Going? Jesus! Will there be a full-scale model of the Ark in this museum? Give it up, jmorris, God has afflicted you with the pestilence of a conservative mind. You best just suffer in silence rather than encouraging mockery and derision. And maybe you can be reborn as a donkey in your next life, if you are lucky.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by letssee on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:21AM (1 child)

              by letssee (2537) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:21AM (#571089)

              Do you really *believe* this? That the enlightenment only could happen in europe because of the 'working' moral code form the bible?
              The bible has caused impressive rivers of blood in the past, and still does. I wouldn't really call it a 'working' system.

              Can I tell you a secret? It's all about the money. It always was and it always will be.

              Also, it took a chinese emperor dying at an inopportune moment to prevent europe being colonized by the chinese instead of the other way around. Lots and lots of coincidences in world history.

              • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:11PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:11PM (#571207)

                It's pretty well established that everyone who tried to invade Europe got decimated by Europe's impressive array of diseases.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:41PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:41PM (#571355)

              Glenn Beck agrees with NeoReaction on one point, the importance of old books.

              Do we need further proof that jmo is just a walking talking breathing propaganda machine? I mean Glenn Beck agrees so wowowowowowwo! Talk radio is garbage, anyone forming their opinions based on the rantings of talk radio hosts is lacking serious critical thinking skills. "All heil capitalism! May the pyramid scheme never end, and may I one day reach the higher levels. Oh, and please send me some new military boots for Jesusmas the old ones are wearing out from all the face stomping."

              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:05AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:05AM (#571480)

                Impressive set of meaningless and inflammatory jibberjabba! jmo ad hominem! I think Glenn Beck sucks! People I don't like are garbage! People who disagree with me can't think critically!

                Mmm, yes. I can tell from your post that the size of your critical thinker is incredible.

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:42AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:42AM (#571066)

          All of the proposed replacements since the later portion of the Enlightenment have crashed and burned. Badly.

          And what is wrong with a secular moral and social code? Because whether most people admit it or not, they are using it. Strange how people cherrypick verses from the bible and use the most convenient interpretations possible to suit their own beliefs; it's like the bible doesn't matter much at all and people don't really need it.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:45PM

            by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:45PM (#571196)

            Agreed. But up to the late 18th Century they were picking one closely based on the Biblical; one that was known to work. Slow change, discard the failures (by deliberate action or by failure/death), propagate the successes, in short evolution. Starting with the French Revolution and Marx it was Revolution, throw out -everything- and build an entire social order and moral code based on reason. The evidence from that experiment says that either our reason or our knowledge is not yet up to the task.

            They weren't interested in examining the old to see what worked, why it worked, what would be the non-obvious consequences of changes in area A to B, none of that. They simply ripped and replaced. But even if we did, I doubt we have the knowledge required to make massive changes and avoid hosing ourselves. Arrogance is deadly, we have been thinking about these things in a methodical way but a short time, we should admit our limitations. Our Science and Reason are nowhere near ready to provide a total philosophical system. It makes for dangerous times, we know enough to be unwilling to follow the old stable codes and are still too ignorant to replace them.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:43PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:43PM (#571230) Journal

          ...are...are you fucking serious? Compare the Bill of Rights and the Ten Commandments. Tell me why we don't have formalized chattel slavery despite everything Paul says about "obey your masters as Christ."

          J-Mo, you complete goddamn historical illiterate...you want a "Biblical" world? Go to Iran. The Koran isn't a lot different in that regard. THAT is what you're advocating when you say shit like "[t]he Bible has proven its fitness to serve as a basis for a major civilization's moral and social code." Just...lie down and shut up. I'm embarrassed *for* you that you'd say something that ignorant, since it's clear you have no shame.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:06AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:06AM (#571036)

        Why do people find the Bible even remotely interesting as a guide for life?

        Because they are highly interested in Deuter0nomy.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:57AM (3 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:57AM (#571104) Journal

        "Why do people find the Bible even remotely interesting as a guide for life?"

        The answer to that question is a lot more complex than you realize. There is a lot in the Bible that is interesting as a guide for life. Of course there would be. It's a carefully curated collection of compositions by those considered wisest for thousands of years. Some of it sounds dated to us now, but there's a whole bunch in there that connects to the common humanity we share with them. Take the advice of an Akkadian father to his son [youtube.com]. Written thousands of years ago, but still a whole lot of it is still good advice today.

        So there's a lot of wisdom and guidance for life you can get from the Bible. The "because God says so" part of it lends more authority to the advice. The "do it, or I shall smite thee" is nearly identical to what I tell my kids to get them to stop fighting and treat one another better.

        On another level, some people use the Bible as a weapon. They claim its authority for their own, and thereby God's authority, and then proceed to use it as justification for horrible things that are mostly contrary to what the book actually says, and whose actual goals are mundane, banal.

        Others use the Bible's precepts to codify and reinforce tribalism. "Our tribe does this. If you don't, then you are not of our tribe." Some tribes take that more strenuously than others. View the Orthodox Jews swaying as they read their torahs, or the snake handlers waving Bibles in Appalachia.

        However many nefarious or reductive uses all those folks put the Bible to, it doesn't change the fact there is a lot in the Bible that is a useful guide for life.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tfried on Friday September 22 2017, @09:06AM (2 children)

          by tfried (5534) on Friday September 22 2017, @09:06AM (#571595)

          Yes, the Bible is an interesting (if sort of lengthy) read for several reasons, including that it contains some bits of advice that still sound reasonable today. However that does not set it apart from the Harry Potter series, for instance. Or - a bit more seriously - from the works of Shakespeare, or - if that is looking too newfangled - the works of Seneca or Aristotele. BTW, the one you cite ("Counsels of Wisdom") is a lot older, and happens to be historically close to some parts of the Old Testament, but is not part of the Bible.

          The whole dilemma with the Bible is the huge machinery surrounding it, and especially the obnoxious notions that
          - the Bible is the best read/advice that you can get
          - the Bible is the literal word of God, and therefore
          - every single bit of it is to be taken literally, and no single bit must ever be dismissed as outdated.
          Clearly the kills any open-minded debate.

          Every other negative you mention (the Bible being misused to justify just about anything, including horrible deeds) is just a consequence of that: As the Bible is the "book you cannot argue with" makes it the ultimate book for arguments from authority.

          TL;DR: The one really unique thing about the Bible is the way it is being misused to end all debate. If you are looking for meaningful advice, look elsewhere.

          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday September 22 2017, @12:04PM (1 child)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday September 22 2017, @12:04PM (#571613) Journal

            The one really unique thing about the Bible is the way it is being misused to end all debate. If you are looking for meaningful advice, look elsewhere.

            Isn't the Constitution of the United States used in the same exact way, though, to end all debate? It's the authority, it says this, you're not doing what it says, you're wrong. Period.

            That the Bible does have meaningful advice is not negated by the ends toward which some people employ it. If I read, "Thou shalt not kill," and say, "Hey, that's good advice," doesn't that stand alone? If some other guys engraves that on a stone tablet and then uses that tablet to brain somebody else, it still doesn't change the value of the statement, "Thou shalt not kill." It merely says that guy is a retard who can't read.

            As for the Bible being the literal word of God, I think most people who profess Christian faith would probably opt for the milder, "inspired by God." There are too many contradictions and other flaws in the Bible to ascribe its sole authorship to a perfect, supreme being. As a document inspired by God the Bible would be in good company with many other cultures. The Greeks invoked divine inspiration for their compositions all the time from the Muses.

            For me, the actual provenance of the advice in the Bible is less material, but if believing "Thou shalt not kill" is divinely ordered has more success in preventing the aforementioned illiterate from disobeying it, then where's the harm?

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by tfried on Friday September 22 2017, @08:19PM

              by tfried (5534) on Friday September 22 2017, @08:19PM (#571784)

              The problem with anything used as ultimate authority is that it better be consistently good advice, not some self-contradictory mix of good and bad. Take your "Counsels of Wisdom" for contrast: It holds a bunch of very specific advice, but it also gives the reasoning behind that advice (and beyond god likes this / god dislikes this). In other words, it gives you the tools to judge whether that advice is sound, and whether it applies to whatever time, place, and context you happen to be in. The Bible ... can't really think of any section that would stand up in comparison.

              Also, yes, the same applies to the Constitution. It was clearly written by mere - if exceptional - human beings. There is ample reason not to take it lightly, and there are wise guards against modifying it on a whim, and on a flimsy majority. That doesn't mean it cannot be modified or should never clarified, modified or amended In fact, there are clear rules on how to do just that. Therefore it also isn't suited for arguments to (ultimate) authority, even if many are trying to use it that way, and many are falling for it.

              For your example of "thou shalt not kill", I will mention that:
              a) There seems to be widespread agreement that it is one of the better pieces of advice in the Bible. But how can we even judge, whether biblical advice is good or bad? Obviously we are drawing from additional sources of insight.
              b) Most other cultures have come up with a similar rule, independently.
              c) Such rules are usually backed up by formal or informal earthly consequences, not just scripture.
              d) Christians and non-Christians alike have been all too good at finding exceptions to that simple rule.

      • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:21PM (4 children)

        by SomeGuy (5632) on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:21PM (#571114)

        Probably because one can't even teach science in schools these days: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2017/09/18/dropping-science [penny-arcade.com]

        And even a mistaken hint that Glorious Magic Sky Fairy doesn't really exist must be purged so as not to offend Glorious Magic Sky Fairy http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/277845187-story [fox5atlanta.com]

        • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Friday September 22 2017, @04:58AM (3 children)

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Friday September 22 2017, @04:58AM (#571568) Journal

          Of course the Penny Arcade comic got science wrong. The whole point of science is that you don't need to believe it since you can test it. As soon as you start to blindly believe, it's no longer science, it's a religion whose dogmas happen to coincide with scientific facts.

          Religion asks you to believe. Science tries to convince you. Very different things.

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
          • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Friday September 22 2017, @02:36PM (2 children)

            by SomeGuy (5632) on Friday September 22 2017, @02:36PM (#571649)

            Of course only people here could completely miss the point - that educational systems are increasingly making concessions for religious nutjobs.

            The whole point of science is that you don't need to believe it since you can test it.

            Which doesn't do a lot of good when a large chunk arbitrarily dismiss the results of such tests because some 2000 year old book of ball gargling conflicts with the results.

            • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Friday September 22 2017, @02:57PM (1 child)

              by maxwell demon (1608) on Friday September 22 2017, @02:57PM (#571656) Journal

              If you make the point wrongly, you are not actually making it. That is, if you present science as something you are supposed to believe, then one can rightfully ask why you should believe that, and not something else. The fact that science is not about believing is exactly the point of it. And the claim that science is just another believe system is exactly what the religious anti-science groups claim in order to . So despite obviously not intending to do so, that comic actually helps the religious anti-science groups by reinforcing their main (wrong) argument.

              --
              The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
              • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Friday September 22 2017, @05:02PM

                by SomeGuy (5632) on Friday September 22 2017, @05:02PM (#571704)

                Unfortunately, I have personally seen religious idiots eat up scientific uncertainty in such a way to as to continue justifying their own beliefs. So in other words - and yes, I did learn this a long time ago - there is no way to reason with religious nutjobs.

                So, it is sort of a necessary evil, if you will, to present scientific theories as more or less fact with the hope that those learning it will eventually also understand the core principals of science. It would be nice if that understanding came first, but it isn't always going to happen.

                If you make the point wrongly, you are not actually making it.

                This is incorrect. Using humor to punctuate a point is a common way to get a point across. The vast majority of people on this planet - even the nutjobs - can parse and understand it even if the exact wording is "wrong", or even if they don't ultimately agree with the said point.

                This is a common cop out for people who don't want to listen to something. It is always possible to pick apart a statement or view it from an unintended perspective to find something pedantically "wrong". That does not necessarily invalidate the original point.

                Quite frankly, I could get more intelligent commentary from my neighbor's parrots! Oh, dear, were you unable to understand my point because I overstated it? LOOOOOLLLLL! So cute.

                If you really can't understand it, you need to go back to kindergarten and learn how to communicate. That is, assuming you don't already have your diploma from "Troll U"! :)

      • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:50PM

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:50PM (#571143) Journal

        It pails in comparison to the literature of more modern times.

        You know, I just can't handle this. This isn't just water under the bridge; I'm putting something on my bucket list right now. I'm not going to carry water for these kinds of things, no sir. Okay, that's enough. I'll bail now.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:43PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:43PM (#571358)

        I think the word you're looking for is pales. [google.com]

        ...unless you have a trick with a bucket that I don't know about.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:08AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:08AM (#571482)

          ...unless you have a trick with a bucket that I don't know about.

          He does.

          Don't ask.

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (7 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (#571040) Homepage
      You would have a convincing argument were the bible not to contradict itself all over the place.

      Come back to me when something more like the Jefferson Bible is the universally accepted christianbible.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:01PM (6 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday September 21 2017, @12:01PM (#571107) Journal

        What philosophy does not contain contradictions or flaws? I don't know of one. Human life is a mass of contradictions. It's the well-spring of our sorrow. But on the bright side, it's the source of all our dramatic tension.

        Think how boring we'd be if we were perfect.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:54PM (5 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:54PM (#571145) Journal

          What philosophy does not contain contradictions or flaws?

          Philosophy is the undertaking people fall into when they find they cannot deal with the rigor required by science. Or, pre-science, were doing the best they could (which wasn't very well.)

          Philosophy is a flag for "bullshit." That's my philosophy. No, wait... :)

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:16PM (3 children)

            by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:16PM (#571181) Homepage Journal

            Philosophy is what people do when they're trying to figure out what the right concepts are for areas of thinking they don't know how to do yet.

            As such, it's difficult to get definitive answers.

            Especially because, when they finally do manage to figure out the right concepts and methods for as area, it spawns off and becomes a discipline all its own. This is how science originated historically,

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:08PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:08PM (#571334)

              Science subsumes that roles of philosophy, and does it better; Science is the formalization of figuring out what those concepts and methods should be, and therefore avoids a lot of the fumbling around.

              With Mathematical Logic and the Scientific method, there's no room for philosophy unless one explicitly wishes to avoid rigor; philosophy is science without rigor.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday September 22 2017, @07:06AM (1 child)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Friday September 22 2017, @07:06AM (#571587) Journal

                Science subsumes that roles of philosophy, and does it better;

                But philosophers can spell better, and construct grammatical sentences, often in more than one language! I would hope that science is as claimed, but too often scientists are not aware of the conceptual world they inhabit, or even of the history of their discipline. So there is a certain amount of hubris and conceit, in some but not all scientists, and claims to have "replaced" philosophy are part of that. Rigor combined with ignorance is not really science at all. But it does not know that. Dunning-Kroeger, on the highest levels.

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 22 2017, @04:50PM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @04:50PM (#571700) Journal

                  YOU STOP THAT THIS INSTANT!!

                  You've kept me pissed off for weeks now, and all of a sudden, you post something that I can't possibly disagree with?

                  JUST STOP IT!!

                  Post some more stupid shit so that I can moderate you into oblivion!! You can't curry favor that easily!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:41PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:41PM (#571356)

            Oh please. Philosophy is the undertaking people use to construct and solidify the rigor required by science. Philosophy is the foundation of scientific thought, it is neither obsolete nor irrelevant.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:36PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @02:36PM (#571164) Journal

      He is not a Christian. If he would be a Christian, he would listen to Christ. This is what Christ said:

      Mathew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

      Yes. That. Every time someone claiming to be Christian sets a date for the end of the world, I think to myself that I can be fairly sure that THAT date is NOT the end of the world.

      Now, one could think, that if a group of people would simply start setting end of the world dates for every single day in the future, then they could prevent the end of the world. I don't think so. The point is that it will take everyone by surprise.

      And then there is this. If you believe in "the rapture of the church followed by seven years of tribulation", then the end of the world cannot possibly be a surprise to anyone. The surprise would be the date of the rapture, not the end of the world. The unbelievers left behind would no doubt be happy to see the Christians disappear. The end of the world would be seven years later. It is specified multiple times in the bible. Halfway through the tribulation would be (a) times, time and half a time, (b) 1260 days, or (c) 42 months. [note 42 months, of 30 day months = 1260 days using either a Christian or non Christian calculator]

      But back to the point. The date setting is never to be believed. By believers or non believers. How many past date setters have been wrong?

      Now, it could be on that date. But you just cannot know for sure. And that leads to the point: be ready all the time and be watching.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:02PM (2 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:02PM (#571248) Journal

      Careful with that one. That verse single-handedly destroys most if not all Trinitarian theologies...

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 1) by sveldkamp on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:43PM (1 child)

        by sveldkamp (6064) on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:43PM (#571357)

        Jesus was both almighty God (equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit) and limited man, in two distinct natures. Athanasius was persecuted for this belief before the church repented and codified it in the Athanasian Creed about 1500 years ago.

        And the Bible can only be well-understood in this way. In Hebrews 1:8 we have Jesus called God: "But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'" Or from Jesus' perspective in Psalm 2: "I will declare the decree: YHWH has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'"
        But later in Hebrews the author talks of Jesus as growing and learning: "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.", 2:10, and "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.", Hebrews 5:8. [NKJV used with liberty taken to include specific name YHWH.]

        The truth of the Son's two distinct natures helps explain the fascinating story in John 18:4-6, where Jesus knows that He is the I AM, can cause men to fall down before Him, and still willingly give Himself up: "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, 'Whom are you seeking?' 5 They answered Him, 'Jesus of Nazareth.' Jesus said to them, 'I am [He].' And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, 'I am [He],' they drew back and fell to the ground."

        That's pretty far from destroying Trinitarian theology. But we have the advantage of learning from those who paid the price to study it out. Further study: https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures [carm.org]

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:29PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:29PM (#571385) Journal

          Do you realize how much question-begging you're doing here? I don't even know where to start with this...

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 3, Funny) by turgid on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:10PM

      by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:10PM (#571372) Journal

      Hmmm.... Three score years and ten (70) times 365.25 (approx) multiplied by 1000 years is about 25.6 million years God should have lived for given that He made us in His image (ugly old goat that he was) and we get 70 years or there abouts. Now we know that the Solar System is at least 4.7 billion years old so God should have extinguished us some time during His lifetime, which as we can see is far shorter than the age of the Solar System. He must precede the Solar System since He created it (allegedly) therefore we conclude that God does not exist and has never existed or else we would have been dead by now.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:44AM (2 children)

    by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:44AM (#571006) Journal

    "a major part of the world will not be the same"

    That's a good bet considering ongoing wars, hurricanes, typhoons, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, tsunamis, gas leaks, terrorist attacks, etc. --- it is probably possible to find any one of such disasters on every single day. As for the "major" modifier, that's totally subjective.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:00AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:00AM (#571012)

      "a major part of the world will not be the same"

      Right prediction, wrong date. 11/9/2016 [blogspot.com]

    • (Score: 2) by sbgen on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:15PM

      by sbgen (1302) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:15PM (#571299)

      You left out elections

      --
      Warning: Not a computer expert, but got to use it. Yes, my kind does exist.
  • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:02AM (77 children)

    by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:02AM (#571013) Journal

    Alright, I may be mod banned and what not, but seriously? Eds choose this over my very real and plausible "end of the world in neo-nazi holocaust" submissions? Once again, I am disappointed in SoylentNews. If not for the DNs, I probably wouldn't even read this site, anymore.

    • (Score: 3, Troll) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:24AM (41 children)

      by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:24AM (#571021) Journal

      Wow, spam right off the bat! OK, admins! I will not email you, but I assume you read your own site. This is an uncalled for spam mod. I am not selling anything except free speech, and if some are tired of hearing that, they are not justified in throwing a spam mod. I expect this to be rescinded in the next 24 hours. If not, there will be consequences! And probably not the consequences you expect. I want to know who modded this spam. I want a user name. I want accountability, and I want punishment. Is there justice on SoylentNews? Or is this just an echo chamber for the uneducated millennial loser?

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:30AM (7 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:30AM (#571027) Journal

        Is there justice on SoylentNews? Or is this just an echo chamber for the uneducated millennial loser?

        False dichotomy, magister.
        As a penance, look at yourself into a mirror, then go and sin no more.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 2, Troll) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:44AM (6 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:44AM (#571076) Journal

          cannot reply lameness filter lame.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:58AM (5 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:58AM (#571080) Journal

            Domine, parce mihi, quia peccavi.

            • (Score: 2, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:04AM (4 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:04AM (#571082) Journal

              Mea Culpa, Mea culpa! Domine, parce mihi, quia peccavi.

              So, I can post in Latin, but not in Greek! Bleeding bloody Papists, I say! TMB, fix your lameness filter, the regex'es have gone beyond the artful.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:45AM (1 child)

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @11:45AM (#571101) Journal

                TMB, fix your lameness filter, the regex'es have gone beyond the artful.

                Inevitable so.
                One cannot fight natural language with regexes without causing collateral damage, no matter how much The Never-Wrong Miny Buzzguard you are.

                The wise reaction would have been to not react in any way beyond the existing modding guidelines***

                The way it is now, I'm highly tempted to step in the shoes of DN only to defeat the regexes - the UNICODE is big... nay... yuuuge in what can offer. I bet a "professional" written regex (causing minimal collateral damage) would reach tens of kilobytes easily - that is, absolutely unmaintainable.

                ---
                *** you know, TMB? it's not too late to cut the crap and drop the entire idea of lameness filter all together... I never had problem with via-gra and p3nis enlargmnt here. Be rational, what good that lameness filter is for?

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:35PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @03:35PM (#571189)

                  But but but his work of art!!!

                  "No, No" saythe the lame buzzbrained and he is never wrong.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:48PM (1 child)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:48PM (#571236) Journal

                Oh for fuck's sake, his stupid fucking regex filters block Greek now?!

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:07PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:07PM (#571294)

                  That's right - no fudge packing on Soylent!

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:41AM (24 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:41AM (#571032) Journal
        I see the effort to leave [soylentnews.org] SN is in full swing. I recognize this dysfunction as I've seen it over and over. Don't you ever get tired of trying to get yourself banned from yet another forum? We won't respect you more for being a public nuisance.
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:49AM (23 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:49AM (#571033) Journal

          I love you too, khallow, and I treasure of somewhat intellectual debates, but I have to admit, I have never been banned from any forum prior to this. And I do not intend to be banned from SoylentNews. On the other hand, the SoylentNews may collapse of the contradiction of its own principles. Remains to be seen.

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (20 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (#571039) Journal

            and I treasure of somewhat intellectual debates

            Too bad the feeling isn't mutual. You've been an anti-intellectual nuisance for a long time. Socrates had a point behind his prodding and nettling. When will you have a point behind yours?

            but I have to admit, I have never been banned from any forum prior to this

            Needless to say, I don't believe it.

            On the other hand, the SoylentNews may collapse of the contradiction of its own principles.

            Reminds me of how certain critics don't care in the least about the hypocrisy of the blatantly immoral, but get bent out of shape over slight imperfections of those who try to be moral. We can work with the slight imperfections of SN rather merely accept the blatant hypocrisies of major media and community forum sites. But no, certain people like you have to fuck up a good thing.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:01AM (19 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:01AM (#571052) Journal

              Needless to say, I don't believe it.

              The things you do not believe, my rather naive khallow, encompass the whole of your ignorance. You ought to investigate this. I recommend René Descartes [wikipedia.org], he wrote rather nice bit titled Meditations on First Philosophy [uconn.edu]. I do believe that I have never met anyone who would benefit more from a bit of philosophy than yourself, khallow.

                Best regards, aristarchus.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:28AM (18 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:28AM (#571061) Journal
                Perhaps you should follow your own advice then? As you say, you've never met someone more in need.
                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:39AM (17 children)

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:39AM (#571065) Journal

                  Are you seriously suggesting that I have not read Monsieur Descartes? Oh, khallow, you are capable of much greater insults than this, and more believable ones! Strive for greatness! As Kant said, "Sapere aude!", although of course it pre-dates him. Education, khallow, a broad and liberal education, it makes the person.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:28PM (16 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:28PM (#571220) Journal

                    Are you seriously suggesting that I have not read Monsieur Descartes?

                    Reading is not understanding. It is merely a precondition. I would also suggest basic material on rhetoric. You shouldn't be so reliant on fallacy-driven argument.

                    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:51PM (15 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:51PM (#571240) Journal

                      And that is a little like the Grand Wizard of the Klan telling people not to be so racist. He's kicking your dumb ass up and down the room like a stoner with a hacky-sack, and he's *laughing as he does it.* Gawwwwd damn, dude, just stop. This is embarrassing to watch.

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:12PM (14 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:12PM (#571337) Journal

                        And that is a little like the Grand Wizard of the Klan telling people not to be so racist.

                        Aristarchus has played [soylentnews.org] these game for a while. Argument from ignorance fallacy is a standard tool in his box.

                        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:52PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:52PM (#571365)

                          So what do you claim? Ignorance is argument?

                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:25PM (12 children)

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:25PM (#571382) Journal

                          How is that post an argument from ignorance?

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:50PM (11 children)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:50PM (#571394) Journal

                            The things you do not believe, my rather naive khallow, encompass the whole of your ignorance. You ought to investigate this. I recommend René Descartes [wikipedia.org], he wrote rather nice bit titled Meditations on First Philosophy [uconn.edu]. I do believe that I have never met anyone who would benefit more from a bit of philosophy than yourself, khallow.

                            I suppose it is an ad hominem as well. Let us recall, as usual, there had been nothing to trigger this supposed need for philosophical knowledge except aristarchus posting snippy remarks again.

                            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 22 2017, @03:53AM (10 children)

                              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday September 22 2017, @03:53AM (#571550) Journal

                              Oh, I disagree. The problem with a lot of hardcore STEM types is a sort of scientism, although not even anything that sophisticated; many of you never spend much time considering meta-cognition, or the accumulation of biases and habits over time. Most of you don't ask yourselves WHY you believe things, or how likely you are to be wrong, outside of "safe" things like your own code, etc.

                              Philosophy is massively important because it forces people to get to the very base of how their minds work. Some of it is like trying to look at the back of your own skull by rolling your eyes back in your head, it's true, but it's a good thing to examine your basic axioms and how you form beliefs.

                              --
                              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday September 22 2017, @09:32AM (8 children)

                                by aristarchus (2645) on Friday September 22 2017, @09:32AM (#571599) Journal

                                Descartes' "method" in the Meditations is one of radical doubt. He says that it behooves everyone, at some point in their life, to sit down and sort out what they actually know is true, and separate it from what they only think is true. When he is done with this himself, not much is left, just some "Cogito, ergo sum". So the suggestion was serious, khallow. Sit down and question what you think you know, examine your assumptions, and, as Oliver Cromwell put it so eloquently, [usf.edu] "... by the bowels of Christ ... bethink you that you may be mistaken."

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 22 2017, @08:53PM (7 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @08:53PM (#571805) Journal

                                  Descartes' "method" in the Meditations is one of radical doubt.

                                  Fine. Do it then. Show us how it's done rather than this pointless blather.

                                  For me, I don't consider radical doubt useful because it's too easy to veer so far off that even the most basic axioms are in doubt (that includes "I think therefore I am/act" empirical basics). For example, what's the point of considering that the things I hold more or less correct are due solely to an evil deity (who is so clever that we can't observe it much less infer its motives) warping the universe to give a false impression? It's not remotely viable to consider even if it were true.

                                  Instead, a superior approach is to consider the consequences of the assumptions from within the system of belief itself. What contradictions or absurd conclusions are reached? If I reach an untenable place from inside the reasoning itself, that's far more damning than some "in this absurdly contrived situation which we couldn't ever observe, it would be wrong". Self-inconsistency is something we can infer and hence, something that philosophy can help us with our reasoning.

                                  So here's my take on the situation. A key goal of such philosophical doubt is to help determine inconsistencies in a system of beliefs. I believe these can be divided into three categories: intrinsic inconsistencies, extrinsic empirical inconsistencies, and extrinsic non-empirical inconsistencies. I've already discussed intrinsic inconsistencies and extrinsic non-empirical inconsistencies above. But to be more clear, an intrinsic inconsistency is a contradiction or untenable, absurd situation that comes about due to the logic of the belief system. An extrinsic inconsistency comes about due to conflict with something outside of the belief system. Extrinsic non-empirical inconsistencies are things like an evil deity warping your thought processes so that you think a statement is well-founded when it's actually not. The scenarios can get ridiculously elaborate, and there's no way to perfectly rule them out.

                                  Then we come to extrinsic empirical inconsistencies which can happen any time your beliefs rub against the real world. If I assert that the Moon is made purely of green cheese, then an observation that the Moon is not green, would be an inconsistency. I can, of course, modify the assertion. Maybe the Moon is made of gray cheese, or maybe it has a gray-colored rind. Direct observation of Moon rocks would provide further inconsistency with the statement.

                                  Thus, observation can generate inconsistencies. And depending on the degree of inconsistency (for example, it might be a manifestation of an intrinsic inconsistency as the belief system is applied to the real world or it might be due to a too simple model that doesn't adequately cover complexity in the real world case as commonly happens with economic models), that might or might not threaten the viability of the theory rather than merely require modification.

                                  In particular, aristarchus saying that I'm wrong or that I need to read a certain treatise (merely to imply that I'm ignorant, if I don't), is not an inconsistency and hence, not a challenge to my beliefs.

                                  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday September 22 2017, @10:19PM (6 children)

                                    by aristarchus (2645) on Friday September 22 2017, @10:19PM (#571855) Journal

                                    Snowflake alert! I only regret, khallow, that you cannot default mod my posts any lower than you can. Unfortunately, you may end up reading some of what I write. Oh, you do not know what "empirical" means, in an epistemological sense.

                                    For example, what's the point of considering that the things I hold more or less correct are due solely to an evil deity (who is so clever that we can't observe it much less infer its motives) warping the universe to give a false impression? It's not remotely viable to consider even if it were true.

                                    Except, my dear and fluffy khallow, some do know it is true, and the evil genie that has gotten ahold of your thinkings is the Vienna Circle. There really is only one question, khallow, "What is the Matrix?" Empirical, you say? Interesting.

                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:09AM (5 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:09AM (#571909) Journal

                                      Oh, you do not know what "empirical" means, in an epistemological sense.

                                      And one of your other well-used fallacies, argument by assertion. Your reasoning is and always has been deeply broken. Hence, my earlier call for a study of basic rhetoric.

                                      Except, my dear and fluffy khallow, some do know it is true, and the evil genie that has gotten ahold of your thinkings is the Vienna Circle. There really is only one question, khallow, "What is the Matrix?" Empirical, you say? Interesting.

                                      The obvious rebuttal is that you don't know what you can't know.

                                      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:21AM (4 children)

                                        by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:21AM (#571912) Journal

                                        I know you are, but what am I?

                                        Your reasoning is and always has been deeply broken. Hence, my earlier call for a study of basic rhetoric.

                                        Ad hominem is all you got? khallow, I am deeply disappointed in you. And basic rhetoric? You do know I am Greek? We invented rhetoric, rhetoric is a Greek word, in fact. You are failing to convince even yourself here.

                                        The obvious rebuttal is that you don't know what you can't know.

                                        Oh, great, now people will have to start drinking. Does the use of your signature phrase mean you have been triggered? Well the obvious rejoinder is that just because you don't know something, that does not entail that you cannot know it. A little effort, eh. Like this concept of "property" and the notion of "desert", where do these come from? But, I can see you are tired, and a bit miffed. So take a break, khallow. You do not have to answer every post that points out your ideological intentional ignorance.

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:33AM (3 children)

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:33AM (#571931) Journal

                                          Well the obvious rejoinder is that just because you don't know something, that does not entail that you cannot know it.

                                          That's a case of the straw man fallacy. I didn't make such a claim. Recall that you asserted people "know" things without having a basis for that knowledge. I am of the opinion that such a basis can only be obtained from either internal reasoning or external observation of reality.

                                          Like this concept of "property" and the notion of "desert", where do these come from?

                                          Our attempts to make sense of the world. This is knowledge you can know, because you can observe both the usage of the terms and the situations that the terms are employed in. And in the real world, that's how children learn the use of these terms. Further, this is an example of the red herring fallacy since these concepts are irrelevant to my post about evil deities faking reality, a scenario which is not made more or less likely, for example, by our use of the term, "desert" or the eating traditions that "desert" labels.

                                          You do not have to answer every post that points out your ideological intentional ignorance.

                                          Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Accusing someone without a shred of evidence is weaker than "pointing out". A Perl script which happens to post accusations of "ideological intentional ignorance" of random people on SN would have just as much information content as your posts do and be as useful.

                                          This is also an example of fallacy of presupposition since as noted above, you haven't bothered, ever, to establish a basis for the accusation. Notice the pattern here - three fallacies in a small post.

                                          Oh, great, now people will have to start drinking.

                                          I use this term to indicate that someone has ignored something obvious. Hence, the "obvious rebuttal" which you should have seen coming. A real philosopher would anticipate it rather than come up with yet more logical and rhetorical fallacies after the fact. Sure, the term is insulting, but it is deserved in this case.

                                          I am continually reminded of the tragedy/farce here. Someone who went through the effort of choosing a name of a philosopher they apparently admired, yet they can't do rudimentary philosophical debate. It has to be one of the larger anti-climaxes of SN.

                                          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 23 2017, @08:55AM (2 children)

                                            by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 23 2017, @08:55AM (#572045) Journal

                                            C'mon, khallow! Thou dost protest too much!

                                            I use this term to indicate that someone has ignored something obvious. Hence, the "obvious rebuttal" which you should have seen coming. A real philosopher would anticipate it rather than come up with yet more logical and rhetorical fallacies after the fact. Sure, the term is insulting, but it is deserved in this case.

                                            I am bothered that you doubt my claim to be the actual aristarchus of Samos, with no evidence at all. Your claim of empiricism fails you. And the "obvious rebuttal" has become a meme here on SoylentNews precisely because it is khallow bringing up something that is by no means obvious. Do you think we would all be playing drinking games based on your intellectual tics, if we thought they were at all well founded?

                                            But here is where it truly hurts:

                                            I am continually reminded of the tragedy/farce here. Someone who went through the effort of choosing a name of a philosopher they apparently admired, yet they can't do rudimentary philosophical debate.

                                            Continually, eh? Then you should be able to cite the locus originalis of this saying! Ah, it was a famous philosopher, German, and you accuse me of being a fake? I am sorry, khallow, but the more you carry on these discussions, the more you expose yourself as an intellectual fraud. You do not know what you are talking about, and it has become more than apparent to everyone but yourself that you have no idea what I am talking about. But, you know, I am willing to continue the dialogue. I will call you names, but only deserved ones.
                                            And, it does not matter what you say about me, because it really is simply obvious to everyone that you are not familiar with the pertinent documents of western, or any, civilization. So, Descartes, Mediations,

                                            1. Animadverti jam ante aliquot annos quàm multa, ineunte aetate, falsa pro veris admiserim, & quàm dubia sint quaecunque istis postea superextruxi, ac proinde funditus omnia semel in vitâ esse evertenda, atque a primis fundamentis denuo inchoandum, si quid aliquando firmum & mansurum cupiam in scientiis stabilire; sed ingens opus esse videbatur, eamque aetatem expectabam, quae foret tam matura, ut capessendis disciplinis aptior nulla sequeretur. Quare tamdiu cunctatus sum ut deinceps essem in culpâ, si quod temporis superest ad agendum, deliberando consumerem. Opportune igitur hodie mentem curis omnibus exsolvi, securum mihi otium procuravi, solus secedo, seriò tandem & libere generali huic mearum opinionum eversioni vacabo.

                                            That is just the beginning. Meditate upon it, if you have the time or the ability.

                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:53PM (1 child)

                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @12:53PM (#572087) Journal
                                              Ok, so much for that. Let's change subject. What's your opinion on my classification of inconsistency?
                                              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday September 25 2017, @09:09AM

                                                by aristarchus (2645) on Monday September 25 2017, @09:09AM (#572596) Journal

                                                Let's not, and instead mediate on the nature of property rights. Are they features of the nature world that we can perceive and verify empirically? Or are the fictions of law, where we have to go to court to find out where they lie? And in either case, are they part of what it means to be a sovereign individual self-consciousness, or are they only allocated to serve the greater good? Really, when Marx has a commodity spin about on its head claiming it possesses intrinsic worth, well, that is not far from saying property rights are god, or nature, given. But of course, there is no such thing as property, there is only tax liability.

                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 22 2017, @05:40PM

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @05:40PM (#571715) Journal

                                Oh, I disagree. The problem with a lot of hardcore STEM types is a sort of scientism, although not even anything that sophisticated; many of you never spend much time considering meta-cognition, or the accumulation of biases and habits over time. Most of you don't ask yourselves WHY you believe things, or how likely you are to be wrong, outside of "safe" things like your own code, etc.

                                I have. I find it remarkable how people think platitudes should change peoples' opinions. As I noted to other repliers, if I haven't thought much about such things and am merely stubborn, this isn't going to do much to make me budge. It doesn't make me self-examine anything. But if I have thought deeply about such things, then what's a few empty words going to do? Rationality doesn't mean changing one's mind every five minutes just because someone posted.

                                Same goes for jmorris. He didn't stumble into his beliefs last weekend. I don't expect any of us to fundamentally change them over years, much less with a few words in a throwaway post.

                                As to scientism, I'm a hardcore empiricist. If your philosophy is correct, it will be reflected in reality.

                                Philosophy is massively important because it forces people to get to the very base of how their minds work. Some of it is like trying to look at the back of your own skull by rolling your eyes back in your head, it's true, but it's a good thing to examine your basic axioms and how you form beliefs. And of course, the reason you bring this is up doesn't have anything to do with the fact that my beliefs disagree with yours, right? I notice that aristarchus's pep talks about philosophical reflection only come when aristarchus disagrees with, or perhaps merely wishes to insult, someone as I discussed in a previous link. It's just ad hominem/argument from ignorance fallacies dressed up with no useful substance.

                                Further, axioms and then beliefs aren't really how people do this. They generally try to derive axioms that consistently generate the beliefs they want. Note in the "Meditations on First Philosophy", Descartes went to considerable effort to rationalize what he was going to believe anyway. He decided to believe in God even though he had gone nowhere on that particular front with his "Meditations" (except perhaps to rule out a certain class of evil Gods). Of philosophy, the best we can ask for is that the beliefs are self-consistent up to a fair effort of testing (perfect self-consistency is impossible to prove for a sufficiently complex axiom system). Past that, it's futile. One set of self-consistent axioms is the same as another, philosophically.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:17PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:17PM (#571300)

            That's right, I joined in the partisan sniping, and awarded Aristarchus four troll mods in a row. More are warranted, but being mod banned kinda sucks . . .

            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday September 23 2017, @08:59AM

              by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 23 2017, @08:59AM (#572046) Journal

              Beware, when you fight monsters, lest you become one yourself. aristarchus will welcome you to the realm of the mod-banned! And remember, while we are on Nietzsche, "when you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you." HI! AC! Did I scare you?

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:13AM (6 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:13AM (#571087) Homepage Journal

        Who you calling a millennial?

        It's been dealt with and you're not getting a user name of the moderator. Encouraging petty vendettas is not our business round these parts. Moderations are going to remain anonymous unless the moderator chooses to discuss them publicly.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:26AM (2 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @10:26AM (#571090) Journal

          Could you at least let me know the geographical area of the ip address? I would hate to nuke the wrong area by mistake! Or maybe some hint about where the modder ranks on the "people who downmod most" , as you have done for me? Or more pertinently for this Fine Article: Was it a Christian? Or a Pagan? Or a Muslin? Or, god forbid, a Pastifarian? Be in any case, dude, lighten up, or rather tighten up, on the regex. You have lameness filtered me from posting in my own language, and that is just, well, racist.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:12PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:12PM (#571295)

            It's somewhere in North Korea - but don't tell anyone that I told you!!

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday September 22 2017, @01:05AM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday September 22 2017, @01:05AM (#571505) Homepage Journal

            No. I don't know the IP address myself. We hide it from ourselves with a one-way hash. Yeah, I could probably rainbow table it up but I'm not going to.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:44PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:44PM (#571313)

          As an outsider to this whole debate, I personally think the spam mod should in no way be anonymous. It is far too powerful to allow its use in secret. By all means, keep the other mods secret, but give the usrenames of anyone who uses the spam mod.

          If a post is truly spam the user who mods it as such has absolutely nothing to worry about by having their name attached to it. Oh, look, DN posted his nonsense again and Runaway1956 got to it first with a spam mod. Hey, look, affiliate links, and this time it was khallow that saw it first. See? Nobody cares. If it wasn't anonymous it would be far less likely to be abused.

          Only those who abuse the spam mod would want it to stay secret, and you seem hell-bent on making sure it stays that way. Kinda makes one wonder...

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:55PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:55PM (#571396) Journal
            I disagree. Look at the abuse aristarchus is heaping on administrators for just running SN. He'll be sure to do the same to anyone else that he can get information for.

            If a post is truly spam the user who mods it as such has absolutely nothing to worry about by having their name attached to it. Oh, look, DN posted his nonsense again and Runaway1956 got to it first with a spam mod. Hey, look, affiliate links, and this time it was khallow that saw it first. See? Nobody cares. If it wasn't anonymous it would be far less likely to be abused.

            Except getting harassed by the sociopaths of the internet.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:59PM

            by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:59PM (#571400) Journal

            ^^ This! This is the kind of post that I most sincerely regret not having the ability to mod up! Spam mods should be public, a badge of honor that other Soylentils would praise and respect, and even envy! And this would preclude their being used for "disagree". That is what anonymous "troll" mods are for.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:13PM (#571296)

        Funny? If you think Aristarchus whining is funny, you should ask your doctor for some hemorrhoids.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:28AM (28 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:28AM (#571025) Journal

      Ahoy. Spam mod is undeserved in this context, according to the rules [soylentnews.org]
      Call him a whinger, mod it Disagree, Flamebait, Troll if you so consider, but it is not spam.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (27 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:15AM (#571038) Journal

        Wow, again, spam mod rescinded? But still, who threw it, and are they, like yours truly, subject to a month in the desert, banned from modding at all? Could we see a Hall of Fame of Nig**** Spam Modders? Maybe with recension rates, number and duration of mod bans, number of IP bans, number of regex attempted bans? Well, no harm done, as in we are no worse off right now. But the irritable spam mod syndrome is still a danger to the site. We should ask our doctor about this.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:26AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:26AM (#571041) Journal

          number of IP bans

          IP bans won't work. At least not without dropping the onion from the bacon [soylentnews.org] (never tested it, actually. I hope it's still an option).

          Which means whatever person tries to demonstrate there is a mean to spam S/N without being punish wastes her/his time: we already know that.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 3, Touché) by FatPhil on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:45AM (25 children)

          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:45AM (#571046) Homepage
          I love how after complaining about an unfair spam mod you're also capable of complaining when that moderation is rectified. Is there anything you won't complain about.
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:54AM (24 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @07:54AM (#571047) Journal

            I really wish Phil was more svelte, and maybe even a little buff. But that is just me. So, no reveal on who threw the mod? No judgment on their punishment? No transparency and no free speech? Some things, my slightly fluffy Phil, are worth complaining about. I only have the well being of this site at heart, though I fear it is too late. Ferking Nazis.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:21AM (23 children)

              by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:21AM (#571058) Homepage
              The perp will get a slap. It might be a small slap, it might be a bigger slap, depending on whether this is seen as an aberration, or a deliberate abuse. This is the system working as it should. And whilst it works as it should, the gritty details do not need to be exposed. There's no more need for egregious spam moders to have their pseudo-identities made public, shame is not the punishment for such offences, and anonymity of moderators will be preserved. You may have been a *temporary* victim of this offence, but you have no skin in the game otherwise, that wrong has been righted, it's now a matter between the gods and the sinner. And quit your wining - you ended up with a free "underrated" mod that you no longer need.

              Oh, where does your claim of "no free speech" come from? We permit you to post an endless stream of whinging and whining here.
              --
              Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:34AM (22 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:34AM (#571063) Journal

                Six times in a fortnight is hardly temporary, FatPhil. I detect a rather vast right-wing conspiracy, as some would say, to spam mod me. Justice is all I ask for! I ask the same for khallow, though he is less deserving.

                • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:32PM (19 children)

                  by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday September 21 2017, @01:32PM (#571138) Journal

                  It must be because Halloween is coming up. Or everybody is PMS'ing at the same time. Trolling has mounted lately. Is it a JTRIG assault? Are we Soylentils getting too close to the truth? Have they determined we must be silenced? Is it too much of a threat that jmorris, aristarchus, khallow, Azuma, frojack, Runaway, Thexalon spar with each other peacably in some sort of unholy communion? Are they afraid that we challenge the incipient civil war they have so carefully designed?

                  Everybody take a deep breath. Soylent is a fractious and weird community, but it will hold together.

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:58PM (18 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @04:58PM (#571247) Journal

                    What fucking civil war? I fight for no one but me. I see bullshit, I cut it down. And for the record, we have J-Mo constantly spewing alt-reich talking points and no one goddammit calls him out on it but me, it seems. This place has a serious RWNJ problem, not helped by the fact that one of the editorial/managerial staff is a fellow-traveler with that sort.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29PM (6 children)

                      by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday September 21 2017, @05:29PM (#571273) Journal

                      I was referring to the civil war between the red team and the blue team that the lizard people have been preparing for quite some time, not a civil war on SN.

                      It's good you cut down bullshit. Everyone should, no matter the source. Reflexive talking points are especially deserving of challenge. None of us should use them, because it reduces meaningful discourse to idiocy in an ever tightening feedback loop.

                      You're not the only one challenging Soylentils from a different part of the ideological spectrum. You have compatriots. I will say I admire your ability to agree with those same people when they say things you can agree with. That's always tough to do, but these days especially so. What you do keeps the door for productive conversation and collective reconciliation open. FWIW, I root for you whether you're challenging a point or agreeing on one.

                      --
                      Washington DC delenda est.
                      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:14PM (5 children)

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:14PM (#571297) Journal

                        Thanks...that helps so much to hear, you have no idea. I've always, always been alone, fighting by myself, so it helps to know it's not just me versus the void...

                        --
                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:38PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:38PM (#571389)

                          I'm in the mix too! But I like forcing TMB to use his shady tactics to unmask me, make him face his true nature. Pretty sure I push back against jmo/jlo/jmoustache (I think I like the last one, mild overtones of Hitler worship there) more than you Azuma :)

                          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 22 2017, @03:50AM

                            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday September 22 2017, @03:50AM (#571549) Journal

                            But who are you? Posting as AC means you could be anyone or several anyones, and the only way to know for sure would be to be an admin who can see the IPs. And even then, an IP doesn't necessarily correlate to a single person.

                            --
                            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:06PM

                          by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:06PM (#571404) Journal

                          The world is in a very strange place just now. History is rhyming with some very unpleasant periods from the past. Part of the Alt-Wrong's modus operandi is to DoS us with constant and seemingly unstoppable stream of misinformation, hatred, intolerance, stupidity, willful ignorance, history and science denial, you name it.

                        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 22 2017, @08:38AM (1 child)

                          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday September 22 2017, @08:38AM (#571593) Homepage
                          I disagree with you a fair bunch of the time and agree with you a fair bunch of the time - this makes you much more interesting than the people I either almost always disagree or agree with, it's a sign that you do have a genuinely interesting point of view either founded on different precepts than my own, but often heading towards similar conclusions, or founded on the same precepts as my own, but often heading towards different conclusions. Or both.

                          You'll be dismayed to hear that you're sharing a tent with Buzz...
                          --
                          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
                          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 22 2017, @05:34PM

                            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday September 22 2017, @05:34PM (#571711) Journal

                            Hell no I'm not sharing a tent with him. Incidentally anything he might say about snakes, scorpions, or similar wee beasties in his sleeping bag has naught to do with me :)

                            --
                            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:33PM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:33PM (#571424) Journal

                      we have J-Mo constantly spewing alt-reich talking points and no one goddammit calls him out on it but me, it seems.

                      He gets dogpiled all the time. But like everyone else here, he isn't always wrong. And part of the point of a place like this is learning how to deal with people with different viewpoints.

                    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 22 2017, @02:10AM (9 children)

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @02:10AM (#571526) Journal

                      From the perspective of a LWNJ, damned near everyone is a RWNJ.

                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 22 2017, @03:48AM (5 children)

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday September 22 2017, @03:48AM (#571547) Journal

                        Well, yes, but how many unreconstructed Marxists have you ever run into? I've never met one. On the other hand, from the perspective of a sane, normal, decent person, pretty much everyone who thinks like you is a RWNJ.

                        (Translation: "no u" doesn't work. Especially when it's a false equivalents. Step up your game, you pathetic whinging cuck.)

                        --
                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 22 2017, @02:18PM (4 children)

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @02:18PM (#571644) Journal

                          Step up my game? Alright, you're getting boring, so I no longer want to adopt you. I'm going to let the grandkids keep their ugly four legged critters that they call "horses" in there instead.

                          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 22 2017, @05:32PM (2 children)

                            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday September 22 2017, @05:32PM (#571710) Journal

                            I said step up, not down. Maybe you're not cut out for this...

                            --
                            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:09AM (1 child)

                              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:09AM (#571922) Journal

                              Now you're sounding like my mother. She always expected me to "be nice to the kids who aren't so bright". I just didn't have time to hang with the little retards.

                              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday September 24 2017, @09:21PM

                                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday September 24 2017, @09:21PM (#572456) Journal

                                That may be the single most revealing comment you've ever made about yourself :) Thanks for doing my work for me, Runaway. Now everyone can see you're the complete, self-centered asshole I've been ranting that you were for years.

                                --
                                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @09:02AM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @09:02AM (#572048)

                            so I no longer want to adopt you.

                            You know, Runaway, this does nothing to stop the rest of us from wanting to euthanize you. Just because you ought to know.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @07:17AM (2 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @07:17AM (#571588)

                        From the perspective of a LWNJ,

                        Alright, let me guess: "Longshoreman's Wharf in New Jersey"?

                        "Leatherneck Wombat Niederschticker Jaeger"?

                        "Long-time World Noodling Jock"?

                        "Lone Wolf Rightwing Terrorist"? (yes, the letters don't match, but that's to throw of the FBI!)

                        Or:
                        "Lameass Wise-ass Never-went-to-college Jackass"?

                        I like that last one best.

                        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 22 2017, @02:15PM (1 child)

                          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @02:15PM (#571642) Journal

                          You can't really be serious, but LWNJ is Left Wing Nut Job, and RWNJ is, naturally enough, Right Wing Nut Job. Of course, LWNJ is used very commonly. You're far more likely to hear "batfuck crazy".

                          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @09:06AM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @09:06AM (#572049)

                            Oh, but an AC can always be serious. You, on the other hand, in your full-on right-wing nut-job Faux News Hillbilly of Ignorance mode, seriously, you cannot be serious? No one can be that stupid, right? Hello? Runaway? Can you hear reality? . . . . .. . . Blurp.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:14AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:14AM (#571484)

                  Six times in a fortnight is hardly temporary, FatPhil. I detect a rather vast right-wing conspiracy, as some would say, to spam mod me.

                  Have you considered as the culprit bots?

                  (beep, boop)

                  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday September 22 2017, @12:18AM

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Friday September 22 2017, @12:18AM (#571486) Journal

                    No. Bots, being machines, are a collective, and so communisitic. Besides, all the bots seem to be after fustakrakreich.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:19PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @06:19PM (#571302)

      And, Aristarchus still bitching. Some things never change.

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:02PM

        by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 21 2017, @09:02PM (#571401) Journal

        I am getting sick and tired of all these people whining about my complaining! Just cut it out, already, and stay on topic!

        Isn't Meade a major purveyor of astronomical instruments? Any chance this wacko numerologist is related?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:31PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:31PM (#571386)

      What are DNs?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:34PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 21 2017, @08:34PM (#571387)

        Never mind. I realized that it refers to the "dick n*****s" troll.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @02:20AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @02:20AM (#571530)

      Staff, can we get a "-3 whiny bitch" moderation? You could fix it so that the whiny bitch get's a crying emoticon beside his name.

      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:09AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:09AM (#571576)

        No, AC, you cannot. Now shut the fuck up and get back in your cage. It applies the lotion, or it gets the hose again! You do not want the hose again, do you AC?

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