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posted by mrpg on Monday October 30 2017, @01:45PM   Printer-friendly
from the cool-story-bro dept.

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1

Waymo is the name of the autonomous vehicle program being developed under Alphabet, the parent company of Google.

Waymo announced on Thursday that it is bringing its Chrysler Pacifica minivans to the Detroit area to test how the company's technology performs in the region's harsh winters.

"Our ultimate goal is for our fully self-driving cars to operate safely and smoothly in all kinds of environments," Waymo CEO John Krafcik writes.

Krafcik says that Waymo has been doing cold-weather tests since 2012. But so far Waymo has done most of its testing in sunny places like Mountain View, California; Phoenix, Arizona; and Austin, Texas. where snow is rare. Waymo believes it has largely mastered driving in sunny climates and is preparing to launch a commercial service in the sun-drenched Phoenix area.

[...] "This type of testing will give us the opportunity to assess the way our sensors perform in wet, cold conditions," Krafick writes. "And it will also build on the advanced driving skills we've developed over the last eight years by teaching our cars how to handle things like skidding on icy, unplowed roads."

Source: Waymo starts testing in Michigan to master snow and ice


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  • (Score: 2) by LVDOVICVS on Monday October 30 2017, @02:14PM (14 children)

    by LVDOVICVS (6131) on Monday October 30 2017, @02:14PM (#589437)

    I look forward to Waymo's system learning to navigate the intricacies of our winter weather and carjackings. Bon chance!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:42PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:42PM (#589450)

      Not to mention the unique "Michigan Left" intersection topology, including odd (to me, from out of state) stop light positioning.

      > teaching our cars how to handle things like skidding on icy, unplowed roads

      What happens when the auto-drive system tries to correct a skid...and the ESC (electronic stability control) built into the car also tries to correct the skid? Interaction between the two systems seems likely...too bad these stories are likely to be confidential, they could be pretty funny.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:56PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:56PM (#589456)

        What happens when the auto-drive system tries to correct a skid...and the ESC (electronic stability control) built into the car also tries to correct the skid?

        It probably does the correct thing any Michigan driver knows to do by the time they're 17.

        However, it will probably take an additional measure that many in Michigan do not care to utilize: driving at a safe speed for conditions, so you don't skid in the first place! (Usually by the time there's two cars skidded off the freeway per mile, most people do figure out that 80-90 mph is not a safe speed for blizzard conditions. I always think it's extra hilarious because of how many of those vehicles that flew off the freeway were Ford F-Teen Fifties!)

        • (Score: 2) by Snow on Monday October 30 2017, @03:48PM (2 children)

          by Snow (1601) on Monday October 30 2017, @03:48PM (#589481) Journal

          I love seeing SUVs and pickup trucks in the ditch. Many people buy those vehicles because they are supposedly good for winter driving, but they are not. They have a high center of gravity and lots of mass. The sway this causes makes them more likely to spin out. Plus, the 4wd many have do not allow for slip in the center differential causing instability during higher speed turns.

          Add to all that the increased confidence that having a SUV/Truck gives you, and you end up with a lot of those types of vehicles in the ditch.

      • (Score: 2) by t-3 on Monday October 30 2017, @06:05PM

        by t-3 (4907) on Monday October 30 2017, @06:05PM (#589564)

        They've done testing in Phoenix, so they should have some experience with Michigan-style lefts, albeit the watered down Arizona half-lane bs. I would love to see one of these hit black ice on the freeway and start spinning, will it be able to correct, or smash headlong into the median? How will it deal with incredibly aggressive Michigan drivers? If they take it into Detroit, will it remember to stop or slow at every intersection in the neighborhoods, regardless of signs, or will it be t-boned by someone fleeing the scene of a crime?

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday October 30 2017, @02:46PM (1 child)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday October 30 2017, @02:46PM (#589453) Journal

      Mmmm. How about potholes [e-detroitinsurance.com], do you have [cbslocal.com] many of them [independent.co.uk]? 'Cause I hear self-driving cars in California will direly need the pot-trained AI [cbslocal.com].

      Seriously guys, if you aren't going to fix them, at least you can make them much better, Siberian style [metro.co.uk]!!!

      I look forward to Waymo's system learning to navigate the intricacies of our winter weather and carjackings. Bon chance!

      Well, good luck to you too. Even if knowing were those cars are (and you should not be) is way better.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday October 30 2017, @04:44PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Monday October 30 2017, @04:44PM (#589517)

        Beat me to it: Have they taught the autonomous cars to change a pothole-ripped wheel (or two) by -20 ?

    • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Monday October 30 2017, @02:55PM (4 children)

      by LoRdTAW (3755) on Monday October 30 2017, @02:55PM (#589455) Journal

      How do you carjack an autonomous vehicle?

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:58PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 30 2017, @02:58PM (#589459)

        That's easy. Locate the NSA backdoor and make use of it.

        • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Monday October 30 2017, @03:24PM (1 child)

          by LoRdTAW (3755) on Monday October 30 2017, @03:24PM (#589469) Journal

          I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by Gaaark on Monday October 30 2017, @04:16PM

            by Gaaark (41) on Monday October 30 2017, @04:16PM (#589499) Journal

            Nah, Dave's not here, man!

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday October 30 2017, @09:01PM

        by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Monday October 30 2017, @09:01PM (#589680) Journal

        Get one guy to stand in front of the car, arms and legs stretched out, and another guy to break into it.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 1) by doc_doofus on Monday October 30 2017, @04:58PM

      by doc_doofus (6746) on Monday October 30 2017, @04:58PM (#589528) Homepage

      Maybe if it graduates this winter down in flatland, they can send it north where it will have to contend with us 'Billy's and our hills.
      THAT will be a true test!

      --
      "Just because you're real, doesn't necessarily mean that you're intelligent." - Inspirobot
  • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday October 30 2017, @03:03PM (2 children)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday October 30 2017, @03:03PM (#589461) Homepage Journal

    ... kill 50 Newfoundlanders every year

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 4, Funny) by bob_super on Monday October 30 2017, @04:42PM (1 child)

      by bob_super (1357) on Monday October 30 2017, @04:42PM (#589515)

      That's a fair retribution. How many moose are killed by Newfoundlanders every year?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 31 2017, @03:36AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 31 2017, @03:36AM (#589847)

        A Møøse once bit my sister...

  • (Score: 2) by richtopia on Monday October 30 2017, @03:13PM

    by richtopia (3160) on Monday October 30 2017, @03:13PM (#589464) Homepage Journal

    The article states their fleet is Chrysler Pacificas. You don't build a fleet of custom vehicles without working closely with the OEM. From Waymo's announcement, here is the most informative paragraph as to their Michigan infrastructure:

    Michigan is a natural choice for Waymo’s winter testing. In May 2016, we opened our 53,000 sq ft. self-driving technology development center in Novi so we could more easily collaborate with our Michigan partners. Since then, Waymo’s local engineers have been working on many different parts of our technology, including outfitting our fleet of Chrysler Pacifica hybrid minivans with our Waymo-designed and built suite of sensors. With a facility close by and roots planted in Michigan, we’ll be able to easily test our self-driving cars in the Greater Detroit area to further improve our technology.

  • (Score: 2) by jdccdevel on Monday October 30 2017, @08:48PM (1 child)

    by jdccdevel (1329) on Monday October 30 2017, @08:48PM (#589668) Journal

    I live in Alberta, Canada. I'm very, very familiar with driving in the snow and ice. (More than 20 winters without a single accident.)

    Driving in the winter is a whole different skill set than just regular driving. It's about a lot more than just "taking your time" and "leaving space" (although that's important too!). Sometimes driving too slowly is just as likely to get you stuck or in an accident (rear ended) as driving too fast. It's more about understanding how to react when conditions change, listening to your vehicle and what the road is telling you, and anticipating issues before they start (planning ahead for emergencies.)

    Sometimes that means a controlled loss of traction to understand road and tire conditions (Accelerating/turning on ice). Other times, it means you have to spin your tires (loose snow). Many times the only way to tell you're driving on ice is the sound of the tires changing. Sometimes, it means turning around and going home, because you're not going to make it.

    Often driving safely in adverse conditions means disabling electronic traction control. Additionally, you should never drive in the winter with cruise control on. (You're oo slow to react, and the power needed to maintain speed up a hill can cause unexpected loss of traction.) I would hope they can at least get those right before trying a fully self driving car.

    I can't recall how many times I've had to pull over just to wash my headlights with snow, or peer through the tiny clear spot on the windshield because the heater can't keep up with the freezing rain. How's that going to work with the sensors? What about the deluge of dirty, sandy snow from the semi truck in the other lane?

    Here's just a sampling of situations I've personally encountered that I wouldn't expect a self driving car to be able to handle well at all, if ever.

    1) Ice under hard packed snow. Electronic traction control almost got me in an accident because of this. I was making a left-hand turn with plenty of space, the traction control detected some tire slip and killed the engine power trying to regain traction, which is exactly the opposite of what it should have done. Just barely made the turn without being broadsided. Sometimes you just need to let the wheels spin.
    2) Snow conditions where ice is forming under the tires. Following in the tracks of the car in front of you means almost no traction, but making your own tracks you have lots.
    3) Black ice. Once ice has been driven over enough, it gets polished in such a way that you can't see it.
    3a) Sometimes the traction conditions vary hugely within 30cm (12in) to the left or right on the road. (From almost bare and dry to OMFG I can't even walk on this.) That'll be a challenge for the computer!
    4) Windblown snow completely obscuring the road. Sure, GPS can help keep the car on the road, but how will the car react when all identifying features of the road are gone, and all there is to see is a flat expanse of blowing snow in the headlights?
    5) Snow/ice/sand/salt accumulation on sensors. This is probably the easiest to fix, but I've driven in conditions where the back of my vehicle has been caked with 10cm (4in) of snow, and come out of fog banks with 2cm of solid ice on my grill. Sometimes Sand and Salt from other vehicles covers everything! What if you run out of washer fluid? Will the car be able to pull over safely so you can throw snowballs at the windshield? How will the Lidar/Radar and other computer vision systems react to being partially blinded?
    6) Snow-Drifted in the middle / edges of the lane, and Grader ridges. Hard packed snow can accumulate where the traffic's tires have pushed it out of the way, or a grader has, making it difficult or impossible to change lanes. Also, Grader ridges are much, much, harder than tire ruts. Knowing the difference by sight is the difference between a slightly tricky maneuver (crossing a tire rut) and the airbags deploying because you hit a grader ridge.

    So, as I said, good luck to them. I'd predict they're going to run into the 80/20 rule soon. (i.e. The last 20% of the functionality takes 80% of the work!)

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 31 2017, @12:40AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 31 2017, @12:40AM (#589792)

      Nice summary, saved me the trouble of writing down all these corner cases! Been driving in Buffalo NY winters since my father taught me (off the road) at a tender age -- nearly 60 years of similar experiences.

      One you missed is being blown off the side of an icy road, when there is a big open field next to a road that is otherwise lined with houses and trees. In my case there are summer sports fields alongside a major road. The trick was to start way over to the upwind side of the lane and hope you got past the gusty area before the wind forced you too far sideways. Since everyone takes a slightly different path through, the areas that have a little extra grip are randomly arranged, and mostly invisible with blowing snow over the ice.

  • (Score: 2) by jdccdevel on Monday October 30 2017, @09:15PM

    by jdccdevel (1329) on Monday October 30 2017, @09:15PM (#589692) Journal

    What it would take for me to trust a AI to drive me around in the snow?

    Autonomous vehicle rally & side by side auto-cross would be a good start.

    I want to see autonomous vehicle racing. The cars would compete in two different kinds of races. Use the same chassis as the regular rally cars, just to keep things exciting, but all sensors would have to be the same as the production autonomous vehicles, and no vehicle to vehicle data communication. (To simulate a mixed environment with autonomous and regular vehicles.)

    1) Autonomous Rally racing
    - Mixed terrain. (gravel, mud, dirt, pavement, snow and ice)
    - Racing against the clock, same as regular rally racing.

    2) Side-By-Side Auto-cross
    - 4 cars on the course at the same time
    - Mixed terrain
    - Penalties for inter-vehicle contact.

    If the autonomous vehicle AI and Sensors can handle that sort of environment, and deal with the punishment and abuse of that sort of racing, I might be able to trust them with the safety of myself and my family.

    Plus, it would be a good selling point for the manufacturer. (i.e. Our AI won the 2027 World Autonomous Rally championship! The most capable AI on the road today!)

    Until then, I'll keep my hands on the wheel and my eyes on the road.

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