Study Suggests Women Less Likely to Get CPR From Bystanders
Women are less likely than men to get CPR from a bystander and more likely to die, a new study suggests, and researchers think reluctance to touch a woman's chest might be one reason.
Only 39 percent of women suffering cardiac arrest in a public place were given CPR versus 45 percent of men, and men were 23 percent more likely to survive, the study found. It involved nearly 20,000 cases around the country and is the first to examine gender differences in receiving heart help from the public versus professional responders.
"It can be kind of daunting thinking about pushing hard and fast on the center of a woman's chest" and some people may fear they are hurting her, said Audrey Blewer, a University of Pennsylvania researcher who led the study. Rescuers also may worry about moving a woman's clothing to get better access, or touching breasts to do CPR, but doing it properly "shouldn't entail that," said another study leader, U Penn's Dr. Benjamin Abella. "You put your hands on the sternum, which is the middle of the chest. In theory, you're touching in between the breasts."
The study was discussed Sunday at an American Heart Association conference in Anaheim.
Get touchy and save women's lives.
Also at Penn Medicine and the American Heart Association. Journal of the American College of Cardiology.
Other study mentioned in the AP article: Sexual Activity as a Trigger for Sudden Cardiac Arrest (DOI: 10.1016/j.jacc.2017.09.025) (DX)
Related study: Sex-Based Disparities in Incidence, Treatment, and Outcomes of Cardiac Arrest in the United States, 2003-2012. (DOI: 10.1161/JAHA.116.003704) (DX)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Entropy on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:00PM (35 children)
Guys are scared of some sort of sexual assault claim by women.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:03PM (8 children)
So much this. When everyone is so sensitive that the smallest touch or gesture is sexual harassment combined with the fact that just an accusation of sexual harassment (not even proof) having the chance of ruining your career it's no wonder people would be afraid to help.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:28PM (7 children)
its why i refused to even entertain becoming a teacher. you need only be accused by someone (with or without reason) to have your career end. it seems only those with significant academic tenure (or fund raising capabilities) get any form of legal assistance.
rotten guys deserve to rot, but the brush used to paint is incredibly broad
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @10:17PM (6 children)
^
I subbed for a bit and once had a female student try and ignore me completely while walking away. I specifically made sure tug on her backpack to get her attention and she twisted around yelling "don't touch me like that!" Glad I gave teaching a pass, I have zero desire to deal with that level of fucked up shit and have my reputation tarnished by a stupid kid on a power trip.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:19AM (3 children)
you are not allowed to tug on anyone's backpack.
if a student ignores you, give them a bad grade and/or put that information in any recommendation letters you may write. but don't force them to interact with you in any way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:06PM (2 children)
Kids used to be spanked. In school. By teachers. With paddles or switches. Then that generation went on to defeat the world's most insidious, powerful military force.
But now it's more important that kids feel super safe and keep their feelings intact.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday November 15 2017, @05:35PM
Um, i was paddled and i'm a millennial (right on the edge). Paddles pretty much died in my childhood. I also fought in Iraq. I think the children of those who defeated "the world's most insidious, powerful military force" are the ones that went into parent helicopter mode and ended paddles.
>But now it's more important that kids feel super safe and keep their feelings intact.
Kids don't care about safety. It's the parents that push all that. How does that make you feel?
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Wednesday November 15 2017, @10:22PM
Why can't I just hit adults when I don't agree with their behavior? All that matters is outcome, so clearly violence is justified even if it's not used in self-defense.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:38AM
Also, by law, touching people like that is considered assault. No, not sexual assault, just assault. Of course, it's not really something that would get you in lots of trouble either, but just keep in mind that in general, grabbing any other person or their property is one definition of assault. Nothing to do with teaching or brats at school either of either sex ;)
But yes, at certain age you can get really assholes in school and it takes certain amount of "not giving a fuck" to actually remain sane. The good teachers not only "not give a fuck" but also manage to respect their students somehow too - basically they "don't give a fuck" about the brats, but respect ones that respect them. I'm not even a teacher, just remember days when I was in school!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @06:04PM
why do you think you have a right to touch someone else's kids property to assert your imagined authority? was class over and she didn't want to listen to your bullshit? tough shit motherfucker. if she is acting bad during class? give her a bad conduct grade. beyond that you have no authority or power. the pigs need to learn this lesson too. your stupid laws and rules are a bullshit psy op used to subjugate people, just like your slave indoctrination center you like to think is for education.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:09PM (21 children)
>Guys are scared of some sort of sexual assault claim by women.
Whether legal, social, or otherwise - this is true.
Also, that statement about pressing on the sternum should not entail touching breasts - depends entirely upon the breasts in question (and remember, we're talking about heart attack cases), the sternum is definitely "in the neighborhood."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Entropy on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:33PM (20 children)
I can't find a reference, but some guy was accused of kidnapping(and charged!) for trying to help a lost crying child in a department store. He was thankfully let go after being pressured to take a plea deal but with the current "males are the devil", and especially "white males are the devil" feelings of a lot of society looking out for the welfare of others is just not going to happen if you're in one of those discriminated-against classes for things like this.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:51PM
The correct thing to do is to flag somebody else down and ask them to accompany you while you locate a Mall cop. Even if people ignore you, you'll have multiple witnesses that heard you start "excuse me, this young child is lost".
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:34PM
Try to always have another adult present as a witness, and best is to be sure you're on video. I guess everyone will have to wear body cameras from now on.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:35PM (8 children)
A plea deal is not "being let go." A plea deal, should, involve lawyers court time and lots of stress while waiting for the outcome, at least several weeks of this guy's life were screwed up by this.
Being let go is walking away from the scene and never hearing about it again.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Snow on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:23PM (5 children)
A plea deal means he had to plead guilty.
Hardly getting off scott-free...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:31AM (4 children)
Once you're "in the system" pleading guilty can be the smart and self-serving thing to do.
We knew a family practice lawyer who got hit with a hear-say case about inappropriate sexual conduct with a minor. He could have fought it, with the number of "witnesses" they had (two or three with circumstantial evidence that might back up the "victim"'s story, plus the minor who had already recorded 3 conflicting accounts of the alleged misconduct, and several others with even less credible testimony to give) it would have drug on for years with an uncertain outcome. Instead, he plead guilty and got a 2 year sentence in a nice prison. Even if he fought and "won," the 2 years in prison is a far preferable way to spend your life compared to daily stress in court facing people who are stretching the truth, outright lying, springing surprises, and generally screwing with your life for something you didn't do.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by mhajicek on Wednesday November 15 2017, @03:45AM (3 children)
Plea deals are a travesyof justice. Either you can proove your accusation or not. The vast majority of cases are never tried, because the threat of trial is enough to make a guilty plea the wise choice in each individual case regardless of actual guilt, therefore an accusation is all that's needed to convict.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:00AM
>Plea deals are a travesyof justice
They absolutely are, and they are the pragmatic reality of our justice system, ergo: our justice system is a travesty.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:23AM
I'm a lawyer. There is an undefinable element of pure chance in every trial. People like to wax about how our system seeks truth and justice or say if you are innocent you should fight -- that's all bullshit when there is every likelihood that you will be convicted based on how someone misinterprets things or what their prejudices are. And god forbid you don't behave like a Hallmark card sterotype -- innocent or not you're fucked.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday November 15 2017, @09:40PM
And, because they aren't spending any time trying to actually prove someone guilty in court, they get to spend that time out on the street fucking up someone else's life too!
If more people actually took their cases to court the courts would be so backed up they'd have to drop prosecution on all the petty bullshit for lack of funding/staff.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Wednesday November 15 2017, @09:16AM (1 child)
I was unclear. They tried to get him to plead guilty(plea deal) to some other bs offense, likely in exchange for probation. He stuck to his guns, and they backed down--They did not take it to court. I can't imagine the level of stress this guy had, and it took real guts to not take the "easy" way out. He had to face potentially years in prison(and people that scare the crap out of other people for a living) to stick with his principals and that he didn't do anything wrong--even though he was male. We all know if a female was in that situation she never would have gotten charged. (Though to me fair a transexual should probably just run away immediately.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:00PM
Better, but still Wrong.
Our kids have autism, and we have had to "abduct" them from public places many times - it's remarkable how few people ever get remotely involved - it happens, and it has always turned out low stress and good for us, but it's really rare.
(Score: 3, Informative) by edIII on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:52PM (8 children)
This is true. I was in a public space in a situation in which I wanted, and needed, to help a child. My first thought was being afraid that other adults would think I was some creepy pervy child molester. Thankfully, I found a woman close by that was able to help the child with me.
If I were all alone in a park, you bet I would be nervous as hell about helping a child in need. For guys, you always need to find other people and witnesses to help you help others. It's too easy to be labeled something that doesn't go away that easily.
I've not had to give CPR to a woman, but I did give the Heimlich once. I'll admit I was fairly uncomfortable touching her breasts during it, and I'm sure I didn't do it exactly right as I had no previous training at all. I was sincerely afraid that I was hurting her too. Thank God we cleared out whatever was stopping her from breathing.
Probably the best thing for men to do in these situations is to pull out their smartphone and just start recording, even if only audio.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Sulla on Tuesday November 14 2017, @10:49PM (2 children)
I was in the store the other day and one of my twins decided it was the right time to lose his shit. Naturally being in public and not wanting to be a total asshole I decided to take my screaming kid back to the truck. I just walked with conviction with the kid over my shoulder and hoped nobody called me on it. If I were to ever be called on this I would have nothing on me that I could use to prove that it was my kid. I suppose if you could calm the kid down they might be convinced to call you dad or whatever, but I kind of doubt if a kid is losing it for some reason in a store you will be able to calm it down enough when dealing with that level of bullshit.
I just don't go out anymore.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Snow on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:27PM
Hmm, this sounds like a problem public/private key cryptography and tatoos could solve.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:23AM
I've had to do this several times. at least my son looks exactly like me, so it's extremely unlikely I'd need to convince someone I'm the father.
luckily they do gradually calm down after they reach 3...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by isostatic on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:49PM (4 children)
I did give the Heimlich once. I'll admit I was fairly uncomfortable touching her breasts during it,
right...
I'm sure I didn't do it exactly right
No shit, you were 6" too high.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:09AM (2 children)
Depends on how old she was. He could have been 6" low.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:43AM (1 child)
Thank you!
Best chuckle today... Now I can't get rid of that mental picture of horrible, wrinkly, dangling wobbling sacs of.....ewwwwww....
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 19 2017, @04:43AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQwaxGwUC2k [youtube.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by edIII on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:39AM
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by frojack on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:36PM (1 child)
Came to post the same thing, but thought I'd hold off.
The study dated from a few years worth of data, before the current Hysteria.
But the current climate will do nothing to help the situation.
Not all tendrils of the Clinton machine have been severed yet.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:50PM
I'm curious why you think this is the result of the Clinton machine. Start with explaining why the person that was taken down first was a major Clinton supporter.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Wednesday November 15 2017, @02:57AM (1 child)
Wow. SJW-tardism has now driven things to a point where it may end up having a death toll associated with it...
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:36PM
This is nothing new... social mores have driven irrational and sub-optimal behavior in edge cases since their inception, even in the animal kingdom animals are doing socially driven stuff which leads to early death and detriment to the species.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:14PM (15 children)
This is the reason why. So, if you're trained or just know how to do it, help out, save the life, keep your mouth shut, and leave before anyone starts asking names.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:36PM (14 children)
I'm trained but I wouldn't perform CPR on a woman unless i knew her well. People are too litigious. You're as likely to be sued for bruising from the procedure "my god he was so rough! I'm traumatized for liiiife!" As you are for touching her chest.
If i was a paramedic or EMT who is indemnified by a hospital even when off-duty, i still don't know that i would intervene to resuscitate a woman i don't know. These days you don't even have to be investigated to lose your job. A mere accusation is enough.
It sucks for the women who suffer cardiac arrest or blocked airways, but it's a by-product of several generations of feminism demonizing men. On balance it's probably a small price to pay for the power to destroy on a whim the careers and lives of men who are in their way.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:04PM
Actually, if I recall, this is illegal. You are required to perform CPR if you are currently registeredI went to look this up, and it seems I was wrong, only one state will fine you for not performing CPR and then it is only $100.
(Score: 4, Touché) by krishnoid on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:15PM
Maybe we should have tattoos on our sternums, "Do Resuscitate" or "Do Not Resuscitate" or "You must be at least this cute -> to resuscitate me."
(Score: 3, Interesting) by frojack on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:41PM
In many, maybe most states there are Good Samaritan laws that protect Joe public, but Joe ceases to be part of the random public once trained. Joe should have known better!!
You are better off reading about it than taking any formal training.
An EMT certificate would make you a professional.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 5, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:45PM (4 children)
Physician friend of ours saved a fellow restaurant patron (stranger) once by performing an emergency tracheotomy with a disassembled ballpoint pen - others' correct attempts at Heimlich had failed and the person was already unconscious from lack of air at the time.
Of course he was sued for it. Vowed that he will just stand back and watch them die next time.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @02:37AM
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:17PM (1 child)
That is truly insane. Did the judge throw the case out? How much were they seeking in damages?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:32PM
It went further in the process than it should have, being a licensed MD he had malpractice insurance, and being professional corporate lawyers handling the malpractice case they engaged based on minimum cost to the insurance company rather than principles - I believe they postured back and forth for over a year and the insurance company finally settled for some amount that paid the plaintiffs lawyers for their efforts, but not much more. Of course, throughout this process the MD has to give multiple depositions and make appearances and listen to all of the utter twaddle that is our adversarial representation system.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday November 15 2017, @11:56PM
This is fucked up, but probably for a different reason than you think. After the emergency tracheotomy, the person would have needed hospital treatment and further surgery to fix things up. In order to get their HMO to cover it, they would have had to sue the guy who performed the tracheotomy, not to damage the guy but to get the HMO to pay out. This is also why e.g. children hurt in the home may have to sue their parents to get it covered by the HMO.
So the problem is probably because of the fucked-up medical "care" system in the US, not because the person whose life was saved was an asshole.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:24AM (5 children)
I would. Proper CPR will do more than bruise someone. It can break ribs and has a high likelihood of dislocating someone's sternum. But it can save a life. I would suggest here educating yourself on how you can protect yourself from litigation so you can continue to save lives. Having witnesses and following proper procedure are key. But in the end, ask yourself why you're comfortable with letting someone die because of some nebulous risk of litigation. That kind of fear goes well beyond first aid. For example, it is not very different from fear that keeps us from resisting tyranny.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:42AM (3 children)
Should I carry around a release and get it signed by the victim's party and some witnesses before beginning?
Now, if I saw someone dying in any other part of the world I would not hesitate to act. But not in America. America has slipped past the event horizon of madness.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday November 15 2017, @02:27AM
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:39PM (1 child)
No, you should be aware of the difference between informed consent and implied consent, something which is taught in a modern CPR class.
If a patient is able to respond to you and affirmatively declares you can do it, you have express consent. Informed consent is similar, but it implicates that you shared risks and advantages of what you were going to do. If the patient refuses you do NOTHING, even if it means the person's death.
If a patient needs CPR, they are unconscious. Without a signed legal Do Not Resuscitate order in public or POLST orders in a hospital, an unconscious person automatically gives implied consent. That is, you can assume the patient wants whatever life saving treatments you are trained and qualified to offer.
For a licensed professional, we are aware that without a legally signed DNR order it doesn't matter what anyone else says - once you initiate treatment you must carry through to completion or being relieved by a higher authority of the responsibility (which includes calling a hospital and getting a scene pronouncement if necessary or transport). ("He never wanted CPR" from a spouse isn't good enough.) This includes someone who refused right up until loss of consciousness - which can happen with heart attack deniers.
And I'd be a LOT more circumspect going anyplace in the world. I'd rather be sued than jailed (or worse!) for unlawfully touching a woman - which can happen in MANY countries. Most countries do NOT have Good Samaritan laws. You might get sued, but you have an implied defense so long as you were behaving reasonably.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday November 30 2017, @10:16PM
Oops [gizmodo.com].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:28AM
medical students/doctors in training are sometimes asked to do CPR on old people in emergency rooms (after the doctors have already been doing it for 20 mins or something, and they lose hope).
a medical student told me that they are afraid to do this, because they do break ribs (especially easy with old people), and if the family asks for an autopsy a scandal may ensue.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:34PM (4 children)
Time to amend Good Samaritan laws to explicitly specify that CPR isn't groping, and publicize that.
Also, not a bad time top remind those women getting atrocious giant silicon softballs, that those get actually are in the way when trying to save their life.
Did they study the occurrence of CPR depending on boob size and body type? That would make for a fun comments section.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:54PM (3 children)
I have a feeling the case would disolve into "yeah but this time it really was" and back to square one.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:58PM (2 children)
If groping and CPR can be confused, when performed on a random woman, you're either:
- Doing CPR very wrong
- Doing groping very wrong
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:34PM
It doesn't matter. People only hear the accusation. The problem is that people believe everything they hear. You shouldn't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:50PM
Granted, the Bill Cosby approach is very wrong, but with a little overdose on the Ketamine (or whatever he used), CPR might become necessary...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @08:58PM
Fuck happy-path lawmaking, check your fucking mallocs or use a different language.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Bot on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:08PM (1 child)
Now, I actually don't mind provocatively dressed meatbags, but you can't have both ways. You cannot attract the males you are interested in and repel the others. You cannot be able to cry rape with the guy having to prove otherwise and then having guy eager to handle you for CPR as you were a man. Of course you can control how you dress, you cannot control how the powers that be decided to pit fem meatbags against male ones (and the other way round).
Strange that a study does not list the fear of legal troubles in the abstract while the comments instantly do. Well I don't read TFA so I can't really tell.
Account abandoned.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @10:57PM
The fuck does any of what you said have to do with this?
Jesus you sound like a mouth breather rapist.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by turgid on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:08PM (12 children)
Here in the UK there was a public health campaign about CPR fairly recently to try to inform people what to do and not to be scared to do it. We don't have the same litigious culture as in the USA since our medical care is paid for by general taxation and free at the point of use (you don't need to sue someone to be able to afford medical bills). Someone on BBC Radio 4 said words to the effect that you can't make the situation any worse by performing CPR since technically the person's already dead, but you might just save their life. If I saw someone who I thought needed CPR, I'd have a go whether I thought I'd be sued or not. Is it really worth letting someone die unnecessarily?
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:18PM (2 children)
You know the funny thing, we in the US aren't litigious either [theguardian.com].
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:33PM
But you are so brave, you do everything to avoid a possible lawsuit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Wednesday November 15 2017, @05:58AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 5, Interesting) by frojack on Tuesday November 14 2017, @09:46PM (7 children)
90% of people needing and getting CPR die anyway.
This was reported in this study, which I found rather odd.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:30AM
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Arik on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:18AM (2 children)
Compared to 100% who don't get it, so that's still not bad.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by lx on Wednesday November 15 2017, @03:31PM (1 child)
I'm not so sure. Quality of life is a factor as well. You could be giving the gift of months or even years of suffering.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:36PM
then we should have laws that let people decide to pull their own plug rather than paint them as victims of their own success because Religion or something.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @05:03AM
Indeed, the vast majority of the time, CPR benefits the person administering the CPR more than it benefits the person receiving it (since that person usually dies).
But the survivor at least knows they tried something, even if it turned out to be for naught.
Much better if there is an AED around, which increases the survival rates immensely.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 15 2017, @02:03PM
It depends a lot on why their heart stopped in the first place.
For instance, survival rates are much higher if the heart stopped due to a lightning strike than if the heart had been deteriorating for a while before giving out.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:39PM
It is a very true fact - CPR delivers a scary-small percentage of normal blood flow to the brain, 5% I believe. Open chest direct cardiac massage is "twice as good" at 10% of normal bloodflow. Both of which, while infinitely better than 0, are not that great.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Gaaark on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:55AM
Yeah, that's like here in Canada: I'd have no fear here, but in the states, man.....
Here (as well), healthcare is free.
In the states, if a bone(s) are broken, someone has a bill to pay, so sue!!!!!
If you have little money/no healthcare, you are almost forced to sue.
Man, except for recent douche politicians, I love Canada. (I also love the fact that our winters are getting warmer: Thanks!, Global Warming Man!)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @10:31PM (11 children)
(directed at all commenter's who seemingly advocate for guessing what CPR is from films and doing that to a real person, while potentially obstructing someone who could actually help and therefore pretty-much killing the person yourself)
I wouldn't trust my intuition for physiology or statistics, which I know barely anything about, with my life. Hell, I don't even know if physiology is the right word for questions of the how-much-force-does-it-take-to-break-a-rib and how-do-I-not-puncture-a-lung nature.
I generally avoid any small-but-catastrophic risk without calm and relaxed consideration establishing with high enough confidence that it is reasonable to believe its a small enough risk to offset the catastrophic effect. The required standard of confidence is far higher than you may expect because I have to account for the odds I get my crude stats (which I know fuck all about) wrong.
So yes, it is worth it unless one has high enough confidence in one's estimate of the risk.
Here are some unknowns which worry me enough to stay my hand and watch a person die:
I can't perform CPR, therefore I would be mimicking the same TV shows which tell me defibrillators start hearts and gunshots knock people off their feet (which I don't watch, and so have an even less accurate view of their probably-already-inaccurate depiction).
I can't remember ever seeing a CPR scene in my life, though presumably I did since I think it's something about compressing the heart manually and I must have gotten that idea somewhere.
I haven't got a clue what proportion of CPR patients who have ribs broken and try to sue is.
I don't know how likely I am to break a persons ribs for a given force* (having never been trained for CPR, or broken a rib with my hands).
I don't know how likely slamming both clasped hands into someone's chest from above and behind my head is to do more harm than good, nor if this is overkill for CPR (though since average women can presumably do it (and maybe they can't or have different techniques, no idea) it may be overkill, or it may simply be more effective. If the ribcage can take those huge fat people from documentaries sleeping on it, pumping the heart manually probably takes a whole fuckton of force to sufficiently deform the ribcage until it forces the heart flatter and I haven't a clue how easily ribcages can be deformed to be more flat, but since its bone it I expect it would be quite difficult, unless the ribs are linked to the spine by something flexible and I'm just causing massive damage).
I don't know whether to continue CPR if they start screaming in agony.
I don't know whether to continue CPR if I break a rib.
I don't know fucking anything, and would probably do WAY more harm than a jury would overlook.
I've served on a jury in the UK and my prior unconsidered-but-it-probably-works-ok attitude to the legal system evaporated and I now have zero trust in our courts.
Therefore yes, I'd let them die in most cases because it's a huge mudball of catastrophic and unknown risk which may well end in my slowly, painfully, unnecessarily, and most importantly maybe-in-a-way-entailing-liability-for-their-death** killing someone.
The choice isn't CPR or no CPR, the choice is CPR or mimicking half-remembered television scenes from childhood which I may have entirely imagined anyway.
tl;dr: My utter ignorance of physiology may well kill the person, and I won't risk the legal, social, and mental consequences of slowly and painfully killing someone because of half-remembered advice that most people don't push anywhere near hard enough which I may have in fact imagined since I don't recall the source. It would be wholly irresponsible for me to even attempt CPR with so sketchy an idea of what it even it.
* Except the lower bound I can put on it from sleeping atop my ribcage, but hey, maybe the sternum doesn't take that force and it's something else.
** I am utterly ignorant of the laws regarding this.
/panic
(Score: 4, Interesting) by inertnet on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:06PM (3 children)
That's a long story and you don't have time to go over it when the time comes. It comes down to this: watch someone die for sure, or try to save them instead. Now think about how you would reflect on that choice afterwards. Personally I couldn't just watch people die and do nothing, because I would be regretting that choice for the rest of my life. But I admit that I would wait a few seconds to see if someone more knowledgeable than me steps forward first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:19PM (2 children)
Faced with a mudball of catastrophic risk I don't even know how to begin assessing, I step aside and shall almost every time.
If it comes to it, I will watch strangers die and risk killing/disabling/torturing my close friends and family.
>Now think about how you would reflect on that choice afterwards.
I find my imagined decision the correct one. I'm willing to risk torturing/killing/disabling a stranger (on the assumption (from the general tone of which CPR is spoken of in) that in circumstances requiring it they are likely to die anyway), but I'm not willing to take the legal and social risks of being known to have done so, or the mental risk of it going wrong, which would weigh VASTLY heavier on me than standing aside.
>I would be regretting that choice for the rest of my life
This is the preferred outcome in terms of expected value, since the alternative is living with torturing/disabling/killing the person multiplied by the incredibly-vauge-and-overestimated odds of it happening, which would be far worse than living with inaction.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday November 15 2017, @12:32AM (1 child)
That's why CPR training is so important. While I don't expect everyone to train for CPR, you should at least be familiar with first aid so that you can do something other than step aside when someone's life is at stake.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:13AM
isostatic changed my position on what I'd do in this scenario BTW, by pointing out what CPR is and that it isn't very risky. It turns out my ignorance of what it was led to quite a distorted view informed pretty much exclusively by one or two vaguly-remembered-but-maybe-imagined scenes from film/tv/something where people were hugely over-dramatic.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:44PM (3 children)
I can't perform CPR, therefore I would be mimicking the same TV shows which tell me defibrillators start hearts and gunshots knock people off their feet (which I don't watch, and so have an even less accurate view of their probably-already-inaccurate depiction).
I can't remember ever seeing a CPR scene in my life, though presumably I did since I think it's something about compressing the heart manually and I must have gotten that idea somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD2qTmDsiHk [youtube.com]
I haven't got a clue what proportion of CPR patients who have ribs broken and try to sue is.
Zero.
I don't know how likely I am to break a persons ribs for a given force* (having never been trained for CPR, or broken a rib with my hands).
Very unlikely, unless it's a child and you are drunk. You're far more likely to be tickling them. If they aren't screaming in agony and you're breaking their ribs then it's almost certain they need CPR to live. What good is a pair of non-broken ribs if you are dead. If someone needs CPR, THEY ARE DEAD. The worst you can do is kill yourself as well.
I don't know how likely slamming both clasped hands into someone's chest from above and behind my head is to do more harm than good
Yes it is. Well it won't do anything. perform CPR, not kung fu or whatever that is
I don't know whether to continue CPR if they start screaming in agony.
Then they are conscious and they don't need CPR
I don't know whether to continue CPR if I break a rib.
If they aren't breathing, and nobody else is better qualified, yes.
I don't know fucking anything, and would probably do WAY more harm than a jury would overlook.
No you wouldn't. You're far more likely to do nothing and let someone die. Best bet is to take a 2 hour first aid course though, you never know when you'll need it.
Unless your idea of CPR is using a sledgehammer to smash their brains in, you are protected in pretty much any country you can think of.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:43AM (2 children)
Thanks for the information.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD2qTmDsiH
My prior image of CPR was exerting the absolute most force I was capable of on their sternum with my hands (lift clasped fists up above head, slam down as hard as I can over as long an arc as I can to maximize the time they accelerate) at a normal heartbeat pace between impacts, this is now clearly incredibly wrong and probably would do massive damage if I'd ever done it to somebody (which I almost never would have for the above-stated reasons). I HUGELY overestimated the rigidity of the ribcage if just pushing hard suffices. Though my intentional overestimation of risk prevented that from being a harmful mistake.
That's a good video, and while I'll rethink performing CPR this experience has only reinforced my position of caution in other matters given that if I had attempted CPR prior to this without gaining further knowledge then I would probably have done a hell of a lot of damage to the person via something which isn't very close to CPR and more resembles me attempting to cave their chest in with every ounce of strength I have in my arms (on the, now falsified, assumption that extensive bending of bones was required (or perhaps the false assumption is that ribs are hard to bend in this direction)).
>re legal risk
Would the the aforementioned (now known to just be a) violent beating not attract legal issues because I performed it in good faith? Would a jury even accept that it was in good faith? Are you willing to bet your life on it? Neither was I. As such I would have made the correct decision by deciding not to, in good faith, violently beat their chest in as hard as I could (obviously hugely scaling back the force if it did snap enough ribs to crush inwards). This only makes me more wary of legal risk in other similar situations, since it has made more intuitive the extent of my ignorance of the limits of the body.
While my estimation of the legal risk of CPR is now FAR lower than before, that's largely just because there's far less force involved and less potential for harm if it's just forceful pushing (though perhaps I overestimate the difference in force imparted by a hard push vs a fast moving fist).
>Very unlikely, unless it's a child and you are drunk.
This is only true if one knows roughly how to perform CPR. Given my previous guess at what it was then it probably would have broken ribs if mere pushing suffices to deform them as much as I guess-without-any-good-reason is required.
>perform CPR, not kung fu or whatever that is
The entire point of the post is that guessing what CPR is and doing that is dangerous and irresponsible and that in ignorance the preferred course is often no action (which turned out to be correct since my guess at what CPR was was very, very inaccurate and probably rather harmful).
>No you wouldn't [do more harm]
Given my prior image of CPR, and the fact that apparently the ribcage can be sufficiently compressed (to an extent I have no good reason for believing it is) by just pushing on it rather than hitting it, I rather expect I would have previously done a hell of a lot of harm if I for some reason decided to ignore my caution about guessing how to perform medical procedures and then performing them on nonconsenting strangers.
>You're far more likely to do nothing and let someone die
Sorry, it was intended to be read as:
>I don't know fucking anything, and would probably do WAY more harm than a jury would overlook [if I did ignore my caution and perform my best guess as to what CPR was at the time of writing].
tl;dr: Thanks for the information, there's now a decent chance I'll perform CPR since it looks like it isn't too dangerous compared to my previous image of it. I do not however concede that it's better to guess how to do it if one's as ignorant as I was (unless the chance of death when it's required is really high, which it may be, but a person ignorant of what CPR looks like would also be ignorant of that stat), the only reason my would-be behavior changed is because you provided sufficient information that I wouldn't be guessing anywhere near so much, and the guesses I would make would be regarding a far smaller amount of force than before.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday November 15 2017, @06:11AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @07:30AM
>AC
DW, getting corrected on the stupid shit I say without a public black mark is the whole reason I'm AC. I'm very glad my teenage self largely did that, and I assume by the time I'm thirty I'll be similarly relieved my 2- self did the same.
>why the heck did you think that deformation of the ribcage was difficult if the simple act of taking a breath can do it
I'd never considered it before today, but I suppose I assumed it moved incidentally to breathing but didn't deform.
>How can you be so ignorant of your own body?
I literally can't remember the last time I exerted or injured myself beyond a short bike ride or a small cut. I've never broken a bone or even seen (IRL) someone do so, and can't imagine I will any time soon. I discount media representations of injury, on the grounds that Hollywood seems to think head injuries are just cheap sleeping pills, and so can't judge by what I see online and in the media. Literature isn't a suitable source either, for the same reasons. I would guess I properly exerted myself when I last moved house, but with the aid of another I was unable to judge my flesh's work from their's. I do not know what I can lift and what I can't, because I never need to lift anything heavier than a single wooden chair alone. I do not know the relative force of a punch vs a push because I never punch anything, nor push beyond a somewhat stubborn door.
I was shocked at the extent of my ignorance here too for what it's worth.
tl;dr: In the year 5555
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday November 15 2017, @05:23PM (2 children)
Here some answers for you. I am licensed, though not an absolute expert. I have performed CPR.
It is best if you get training. It's not horribly horribly expensive.
FIRST, activate the EMS system. Call 911 (or 999). With that done, you're trying things while waiting for the experts.
If you ever call 911 (which I know is 999 across the pond), the 911 center may try to talk you through doing it if you're willing, because without it the person WILL die. But being trained is much easier.
DO NOT FOLLOW THESE DIRECTIONS. But the operator will tell you: Your hands go center chest between the nipples horizontally and vertically, and lock your elbows so you're pushing straight and full force. (The movies ALWAYS do this wrong because they're really NOT compressing the chest, of course). PUSH HARD, PUSH FAST. 2 compressions per second. You WILL feel the ribcage "give" as the cartilage pops - it will crunch. That's OK. If you're doing it right, it is INCREDIBLY draining, very quickly.
Yes. You are pushing on the sternum hard enough to compress the heart so that blood continues to circulate to the tissues. Flow to the brain is most important, followed by other organs like the liver which need a constant oxygen supply. Rescue breathing is not necessary - if you're not trained it ain't easy to do and survival rates in public are higher without it.
GET AN AED if you possibly can. Turn it on and follow its directions - a 4th grader can use one.
I don't know. That's an interesting question. First, the ribs are actually connected to the spinal column and the sternum bones by cartilage. It is possible that the bones themselves break, but it is far more likely that the cartilage flexes (think a plastic tube that bends rather than breaks.) It sounds and feels like a break even if it's not. It is possible through incorrect hand placement to break the Xiphoid Process (the little tip at the bottom edge of the sternum - you can feel it on yourself.)
Either way, the defense is that it is better to have broken ribs than let a person die.
Ribs break with about 8 lbs. (PSI) of force applied directly. Which ain't much. But again above, you're usually really popping cartilage. If your patient survives, either way, these injuries will heal. Which is better than dead.
You don't slam. You keep contact with the body throughout the stroke, and you let the body recoil (push back) from each compression stroke. And again, cartilage connects them, which IS deisgned to give rather than break a bone, generally.
You stop. For a civilian, ANY sign that shows return of spontaneous circulation (ROSC) is grounds to stop. If the patient starts a regular breathing pattern, STOP. ("STOP" is an EMS mnemonic - Starts breathing, Transfer care, Out of strength (as in exhausted and cannot physically continue due to muscular failure, not "I'm tired," or Physicians order are the four circumstances we stop CPR in.)
No, you KEEP GOING. They will still die if you don't.
The US standard is this: Did you do what a reasonable person would do in the same circumstances? Did you listen for breathing (5-10 seconds) and try to feel for a pulse (even if you don't know how, really.) If you start, did you do everything you knew to try? Did you know that, if you do nothing, the person is dead anyway?
I have zero trust as well. Sooner or later I'll probably be sued. Doesn't change the fact that I have seen someone die in front of me because I didn't know what to do, and I NEVER want to feel that way again. YMMV.
Yep. You have a third option. Think well enough about others to GET TRAINED.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday November 15 2017, @05:33PM (1 child)
Two other things I forgot to mention above. And again, THESE AREN'T INSTRUCTIONS FOR YOU TO DO. I'm not trained in how to give those. But, you are aiming for about 2 inches of compression on an adult - and that's a LOT and takes a LOT of force. And, do it with the patient's back on a SOLID SURFACE. Do NOT compress on a bed or mat - you need hard underneath to resist your compressions and not give. CPR on a bed is useless.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 16 2017, @05:55AM
I intend to find out more because of this thread, and between you and isostatic I've changed my mind and would now attempt to help.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:04PM (3 children)
The article also talks about sex, and women can perform CPR (chest compression) on a man during sex. For a man to perform CPR on a woman during sex seems awkward.
(Score: 3, Funny) by inertnet on Tuesday November 14 2017, @11:08PM
No need to, he's already giving her new life.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Wednesday November 15 2017, @01:26PM (1 child)
yeah, they _can_, but they don't tend to when he has a heart attack:
http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/31/youre-more-likely-to-die-if-you-have-a-heart-attack-during-sex-6893065/ [metro.co.uk]
That's the flip side of the gender imbalance here - men are more likely to get CPR if it happens in public, less likely in private.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @04:38PM
yeah i find in private, with women, i end up giving what i call the 'reverse teabag manuever'. i don't provide such services to men...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 15 2017, @02:36AM (1 child)
What kind of company do women keep? Is it safe to say, "Other Women"?
What kind of company do men keep? Is it safe to say other men?
When I think of a man in trouble surrounded by other guys, I generally see a question of _which_ of the other men is going to assist. A few might not, but _most_ will try, and maybe fail, before letting someone go unaided. Additionally, I see it happening more in a work setting, possibly more often when someone trained is available to assist.
When I think of a woman drowning, I think of other women generally not _wanting_ to involve themselves in the situation, being scared, or feeling like they don't know what to do or that they're too weak to accomplish the task, resulting in the patient receiving no help.
I do see a gender difference, and I see it in the mentality difference. Some women will jump in and help. Women, as a whole, in my experience, are far less likely to jump forward and take the chance in a critical situation than men. This statistic seems to back that up. When combine with the scare that women present for false accusations should a man attempt to help -- see above for a long thread with nearly unanimous agreement -- I'm surprised the difference is not much greater. I suppose there are enough men that someone always jumps in.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Sulla on Wednesday November 15 2017, @03:57AM
This is a good point. I think there is a problem with a lot of people where they just shut down when in a situation of extreme stress. I was in a situation where my vehicle lost control on an icy road as I was lightly breaking for a stop. Rather than freaking out I had one of those super calm moments where I was able to analyze the situation and react. When fishtailing if you have the space you can accelerate out of the situation (if front wheel drive), you can also just let it happen and allow the spin to lose some of the force. Was red light so no option there and if I allow the spin to happen I would have flipped when I hit the curb. So I fishtailed it away from the curb, toward, then away, getting to the center of the road, and then I just allowed it to happen.
My wife was paralized and unable to react, I think there are a lot of people who can't react in that kind of situation.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Wednesday November 15 2017, @06:24AM (1 child)
A while ago the british heart foundation did the best public announcement video ever for CPR [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Wednesday November 15 2017, @06:31AM
And one reload later I see that isostatic already posted a link to it, oh well, it is worth watching several times.