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posted by martyb on Thursday November 30 2017, @12:53PM   Printer-friendly
from the Epic-Fail? dept.

Epic Games, the developer of Fortnite, has filed a lawsuit against a 14-year-old boy who used cheating software for Fortnite Battle Royale and uploaded a video to YouTube showing others how to use it. The boy filed a DMCA counterclaim after Epic Games tried (successfully) to take down his video, and then uploaded a second video doubling down on the cheating (here is a third intact video from the YouTuber explaining the situation, 7m16s). The original video was ultimately removed and resulted in a "strike" against the YouTuber's account. The boy's mother has filed a letter with the Eastern District Court of North Carolina blasting the lawsuit and asking for it to be dismissed. She says that Epic Games failed to bind underage users with the EULA for their free-to-play game and claims that she did not give parental consent for her son to play the game. She also points out that the software in question is easily obtainable online and that her son did not modify the game with his own code:

Epic Games, the game developer of the massively popular Fortnite survival shooter, now finds itself at the center of a heated debate around the ethics of punishing cheaters after filing a lawsuit against a 14-year-old boy. In response, the boy's mother filed a legal note tearing down Epic's lawsuit and calling for it to be thrown out. The ensuing debate has been fierce, with some praising Epic and others decrying the legal measures as excessive and heartless, suggesting this case could become a touchstone for how game developers of highly competitive online titles handle cheaters and licensing agreement violations in the future.

[...] Epic, which has banned cheaters only to see them develop more robust workarounds, has responded by suing both distributors of the software and, now it seems, at least one user of it. Suing an individual user instead of simply banning them is an unorthodox and controversial move because it echoes the misguided actions of the music recording industry in its attempt to crackdown on piracy. That parallel was only further cemented by the note submitted by the 14-year-old's mother in the Eastern District of North Carolina.

[...] "This particular lawsuit arose as a result of the defendant filing a DMCA counterclaim to a takedown notice on a YouTube video that exposed and promoted Fortnite Battle Royale cheats and exploits," Epic told The Verge in a statement. "Under these circumstances, the law requires that we file suit or drop the claim. Epic is not okay with ongoing cheating or copyright infringement from anyone at any age. As stated previously, we take cheating seriously, and we'll pursue all available options to make sure our games are fun, fair, and competitive for players."

Here's some analysis from a copyright attorney (10m53s, starts at 5m45s). He is not impressed with the mom's letter.


Original Submission

Related Stories

Fortnite's Android Version Bypasses Google Play to Avoid 30% "Store Tax" 17 comments

'Fortnite' Avoiding Google Play Store's 30% Cut on Android Version

"Fortnite" will be available on Android, but not on the Google Play Store. Players will be able to download the installer for the game via the official "Fortnite" website, with which they can then download the game onto their compatible Android device.

The confirmation comes from Epic Games just days after speculation rose over whether or not "Fortnite" would come to Google Play, due to source code in the mobile version of "Fortnite" with instructions for users including notes like "This is necessary to install any app outside of the Play Store" found by XDA Developers. This particular prompt is referring to install of "Fortnite" on Android requiring users to select an option on their phone which opens up the device to allow third-party developers to make changes—an action some are calling a security threat.

For Epic, it's a way to bring the game "directly to customers," without the aid of a middleman. In a Q&A released by Epic, the publisher stated that, "We believe gamers will benefit from competition among software sources on Android. Competition among services gives consumers lots of great choices and enables the best to succeed based on merit." Of course, Google's 30% for games released through its Play Store is also a motivator.

"Avoiding the 30% 'store tax' is a part of Epic's motivation," Epic Games' Tim Sweeney stated in a Q&A. "It's a high cost in a world where game developers' 70% must cover all the cost of developing, operating, and supporting their games. And it's disproportionate to the cost of the services these stores perform, such as payment processing, download bandwidth, and customer service. We're intimately familiar with these costs from our experience operating 'Fortnite' as a direct-to-customer service on PC and Mac."

Fortnite.

See also: Epic Games' strategy for Fortnite on Android is stupid, greedy, and dangerous

Related: Epic Games Sues 14-Year-Old after He Files a DMCA Counterclaim for a How-to-Cheat Video
Sony Faces Growing 'Fortnite' Backlash At E3


Original Submission

Epic Games Sues YouTubers Promoting Fortnite Cheating Software 20 comments

Royale-lly Screwed: Epic Sues YouTubers Promoting Fortnite Cheats

Part of Fortnite's appeal is that it offers a level playing field. People can't unlock new weapons, start a match with equipment, or augment their abilities by grinding for in-game upgrades. Everyone drops out of the Battle Bus with the same tools, a glider and a pickaxe so their skill will determine whether they catch the 'dub or take an L. So it may not come as a surprise that Epic Games is suing two YouTubers for upsetting that balance with cheats.

TorrentFreak has reported that Epic's lawsuit targets Brandon "Golden Modz" Lucas, a cheat distributor and content creator whose YouTube channel has 1.7 million followers, and Colton "Exentric" Contor, who has over 7,000 followers. The cheat in question combined an aimbot with ESP features that offered information that players would otherwise have no way of knowing. It reportedly cost $55 (30 days) or $300 (unlimited) from the Golden Godz website.

[...] The suit appeared to have a quick impact. Golden Modz's last video was published on October 12, and the Golden Godz website currently says that "No packages exist at this time," even though a dialog box claims that "Payment systems are back up and new packages have been added!" The site claims to offer various "services" for several Call of Duty games and Grand Theft Auto: Online; all of them appear to have been pulled.

Also at Polygon.

Fortnite.

Previously: Epic Games Sues 14-Year-Old after He Files a DMCA Counterclaim for a How-to-Cheat Video
U.S. Federal Judge Blocks Man From Selling GTA V Cheating Software

Related: Game About Net Neutrality Receives Grant from Epic Games
Epic Games (Developer of the Unreal Engine) Shows Off "Siren" Demo
Sony Faces Growing 'Fortnite' Backlash At E3
Fortnite's Android Version Bypasses Google Play to Avoid 30% "Store Tax"
Epic's first Fortnite Installer allowed hackers to download and install anything on your Android phone


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 5, Funny) by coolgopher on Thursday November 30 2017, @12:59PM

    by coolgopher (1157) on Thursday November 30 2017, @12:59PM (#603409)

    Epic fail.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Thursday November 30 2017, @01:23PM (26 children)

    by bradley13 (3053) on Thursday November 30 2017, @01:23PM (#603414) Homepage Journal

    On the one hand, cheaters screw up games like this for everyone else.

    On the other hand, young teens cheat, that's just life. Suing a 14yo is just begging for the Streisand Effect.

    On the gripping hand, WTF is so hard about building some actual security into your multiplayer game?

    --
    Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by rigrig on Thursday November 30 2017, @01:48PM (8 children)

      by rigrig (5129) Subscriber Badge <soylentnews@tubul.net> on Thursday November 30 2017, @01:48PM (#603419) Homepage

      WTF is so hard about building some actual security into your multiplayer game?

      The fact that computers are way better at (some aspects of) video games: Either you have to take over players' computers to stop them from using an aimbot, or you ban them for "aiming too well".

      --
      No one remembers the singer.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:09PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:09PM (#603422)

        The worst part is when you're 14 and don't cheat, but get banned because your reflexes are too good so everyone else thinks you're cheating. Aka why I don't play fps anymore (also controllers suck and the multiplayer community is on consoles).

        • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:46PM

          by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:46PM (#603442) Journal

          That happened with my brother, a hardcore gamer and a very, very good one at that. In college, he and his roommate, a hard core Quake III/Tribes/UT player who was in top tier clans, would play counterstrike and other FPS games together. Their problem? They were repeatedly banned from servers being accused of cheating. 99% of players were cannon fodder for their laser precision.

        • (Score: 2) by canopic jug on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:12PM

          by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:12PM (#603452) Journal

          The worst part is when you're 14 and don't cheat, but get banned because your reflexes are too good so everyone else thinks you're cheating. Aka why I don't play fps anymore (also controllers suck and the multiplayer community is on consoles).

          Given how much of the population now play, there must be a reasonably large number of people in the same boat.

          I used to work with a fellow who was considering turning professional. He could rarely play FPS without the people with more normal gaming reflexes getting angry and accusing him of using or even being a bot. I watched him play. He was simply that good. But that never stopped his other opponents from losing their tempers over getting beaten so badly.

          --
          Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:20PM (4 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:20PM (#603492) Journal

          I don't know if that's "the worst part" or not. How about, you get into a game, only to find that EVERYONE bots? So, you bot, just to keep up. But, you're the one who gets caught, and banned? To add insult to injury, one of the premier scripters is HIRED BY the game maker, because he apparently understood the game better than mods and administrators. So, suddenly the same person you once discussed the use of bots with, is suddenly banning everyone who bots. Talk about some crazy crap!! Meanwhile, most botting continues - the company bans a few each month, has a major sweep each year, but the most experienced botters still rank on the leaderboards.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:53PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:53PM (#603509)

            I dunno, you just don't seem like an ex-navy midwest farm boy. Probably just a ton of troll accounts around here, apropos topic to find that out in.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:52PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:52PM (#603579)

            but why play at all like that?

            yeah people cheat, kids cheat. if everyones cheating that is a different league with a handicap, that is not cheating. pick another league.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:06PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:06PM (#603709)

            The solution is to play for the fun of the game and not the need to have the highest score.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 01 2017, @02:09AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 01 2017, @02:09AM (#603763) Journal

              That IS the best solution. Stop looking at the leaderboards, but even then, there is competitiveness among smaller groups of friends. You may never make it onto the leaderboards, which is fine, but you don't want to lag behind your friends. It's best to not even get involved in an online game that sends such conflicting signals to botters. However, you don't know all of this going in.

              As the previous AC poster said - if everyone is doing it, then those are the rules. Consistent rules are what matters. Being caught with the inconsistencies will irritate anyone.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:38PM (6 children)

      by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:38PM (#603436) Journal

      Mixed? Suing a child because he used cheat codes? What is wrong with you?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @05:58PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @05:58PM (#603546)

        Oh come off it, he did more then that.

        He posted a video how to use not cheat codes, but cheating applications. Then when it was taken down he contested it. Not only that but he put up another how to video, and bragged about refusing to take them down.
        With the counter DMCA EPIC has to either give up, or sue. The kid gave them no choice. Do you expect them to leave the how to cheat videos up? If cheating is widespread in the game, the game will only have cheaters, and EPIC wont make any money. Leaving the video up is just asking to take a hit in user numbers.

        I hate people who reflexively take a side.

        Frankly I hope that somehow they both get burned. The kid is a royal brat being enabled by his mother, and epic is sleazy as all get out.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:26PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:26PM (#603600)

          He posted a video how to use not cheat codes, but cheating applications. Then when it was taken down he contested it. Not only that but he put up another how to video, and bragged about refusing to take them down.

          With the counter DMCA EPIC has to either give up, or sue.

          And which part of DMCA trumps the 1st amendment?

          Guess we now need a judge's help to find out.

        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:50PM (3 children)

          by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:50PM (#603613) Journal

          Oh come off it, he did more then that.

          After reading your post my only conclusion is you are a naive teen gamer. No other way to explain how you consider "video game" cheating to be as serious as you are making it out to be. In fact I'd say your tone implies that his actions were criminal which is laughably absurd. Turn off your PC or console, go outside and get a fucking job or at least a productive hobby.

          He posted a video how to use not cheat codes, but cheating applications.

          Does free speech mean nothing to you?

          If cheating is widespread in the game, the game will only have cheaters, and EPIC wont make any money.

          Boo hoo. Fuck epic. They have no right to censor the speech of others because "muh moneyz". Besides, the cheaters are technical issues THEY need to fix. This is just sweeping the problem under the rug.

          Frankly I hope that somehow they both get burned. The kid is a royal brat being enabled by his mother, and epic is sleazy as all get out.

          Defending your free speech against a corporate behemoth is being bratty? I say more power to him. Fuck epic.

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:55PM (2 children)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:55PM (#603646) Journal

            go outside and get a fucking job

            Fucking jobs may be illegal for underage in some jurisdictions.
            Perhaps consider other type of jobs?

            (grin)

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday December 01 2017, @01:32AM (1 child)

              by LoRdTAW (3755) on Friday December 01 2017, @01:32AM (#603756) Journal

              That's why the hobby fall through case is there.

              • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday December 01 2017, @03:48AM

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 01 2017, @03:48AM (#603788) Journal

                Still not full proof.

                Productive hobbies include the "fucking productive hobbies" as subcategory. If a "fucking job" is forbidden to underage, most of the time "fucking hobbies" are too.
                The needed correction "or get a productive hobby that does not involve computer games or fucking".

                (grin)

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by stretch611 on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:45PM (2 children)

      by stretch611 (6199) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:45PM (#603441)

      On the gripping hand, WTF is so hard about building some actual security into your multiplayer game?

      Why not ask Equifax the same question... The answer is the same.

      They all want cheap programmers over quality developers.

      --
      Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
      • (Score: 2) by arcz on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:29PM (1 child)

        by arcz (4501) on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:29PM (#604678) Journal

        Unfortunately aimbots are about as good at pretending to be human as computers are are at detecting aimbots as long as the bot doesn't act obviously.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 04 2017, @02:15PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 04 2017, @02:15PM (#605033)

          > Unfortunately aimbots are about as good at pretending to be human as computers >>are are at detecting aimbots as long as the bot doesn't act obviously.

          Bot detected!

    • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:23PM

      by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:23PM (#603497) Journal

      I've not known if modding survives commenting here.... I hope it does because you got +1 for me for the Niven and Pournelle reference.

      Maybe Epic are simply Moties, and must be sealed off from the rest of the Internet for the protection of the Empire of IT.

      --
      This sig for rent.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:17PM (4 children)

      by edIII (791) on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:17PM (#603556)

      Security is fine and all, but this is security through obscurity AND oppression. Reminds me of when the FBI picked up Dmitry Skylarov because he showed the Adobe's security was basically a wet paper napkin. A total abuse of power to defend code that could defend no one.

      I'm all for security in multiplayer games, but that will only occur in a group setting where it is possible to somehow control other players computers. Some sort of distributed trusted code arrangement. Notably, the biggest problem is that you don't want your regular computer to be subject to such invasions of privacy and eliminations of your own security. I think we need dedicated hardware that could part of a cheat-less system.

      This is bullshit. Take away the cheating aspect you have a problem with, and it's a 14 year old kid being punished because he figured out how to hack HIS SOFTWARE RUNNING ON HIS SYSTEM. Nobody has a right to involve themselves in your life after the point of sale. Epic has overreached here to a fantastic degree. They have no rights whatsoever to suppress information about the security of their software. None.

      If you take away the gaming aspect of this, and replace it with document security, it's once again a private company trying to get government to scare and oppress people. Why? The Emperor Has No Clothes

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 1, Redundant) by arcz on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:28PM (3 children)

        by arcz (4501) on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:28PM (#603720) Journal

        Problem is that his video contains copyrighted content.

        I'm not sure whether or not the video itself could be infringing, but the software he used definitely is.

        So let's recap:
        1. The kid used clearly copyright infringing software. He didn't make the software, so not infringement? (some jurisdictions consider RAM copies as copying and therefore mere use of the software restricted by copyright, but that's silly and debatable...)
        2. The kid made videos showing him cheating. Infringing? A copy but fair use. No direct infringement.
        3. Teaching other people how to cheat in the game. Induced copyright infringement. (and vocarious infringement.)

        IANAL

        • (Score: 4, Disagree) by edIII on Friday December 01 2017, @01:06AM (2 children)

          by edIII (791) on Friday December 01 2017, @01:06AM (#603750)
          1. How is a piece of software infringing upon copyright though? That's legislative security through obscurity. This doesn't seem right either, and sounds like a fair use argument. The article doesn't mention what the cheating software is. There are a couple of them out there, but they have far more in common with debugging tools than they do cheating tools. I've cheated heavily at games before simply because the game for me was hacking it. Search memory, pause the game, search memory, modify memory, verify results, etc. Are they making a tool illegal here? Does the tool somehow need to use data and algorithms only found within the game? Even then, it's completely legal for them to harvest it from my system, and still perfectly legal to transmit between parties for the purposes of "debugging" the game.
              Only way it is illegal is if the authors of the cheating program are distributing large parts of the game code to do it. In most cases this isn't true. Not for simple cheating programs.
          2. Not even remotely infringing. It shows him enjoying a product that he paid for. The legal term I think is "quiet enjoyment", which means that Epic needs to shut the fuck up and back off on videos showing people playing the customers game. That goes for Disney too trying to be bullies to people that dare love their Disney merchandise enough to share on the Internet.
          3. Again, how is copyright violated by cheating in a game? It's software you paid for, running on your computer. To be more blunt, EVERY single process, scrap of memory, and every tiny bit on a storage medium IS MINE. I am free to tell others how, show them how, get paid to do it for them, and certainly do it myself

          Some people just need to fuck right off when it comes to controlling other people's quiet and legal enjoyment of their property.

          --
          Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
          • (Score: 2) by arcz on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:27PM (1 child)

            by arcz (4501) on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:27PM (#604677) Journal

            Like I said, "induced infringement". If you teach others how to cheat in the game, then you are inducing them to cause copyright infringement, which can itself result in liability. It's a type of indirect infringement. (where you aren't infringing yourself but can be found liable anyway.)

            It's also debatable whether making a cheating video is fair use of copyrighted content. I think it might not be, but I can't say for sure.

            I'm friends with one of the lawyers at the firm that filed this suit (Parker Poe), though he's not on this particular case. They're pretty well known and I doubt they'd file a case that presents an obvious loss. While I can understand your opinion, and to some degree agree with it, I recognize that the way I think copyright should work is quite different from the way it actually does. I fully expect the kid to lose.

            IANAL

            • (Score: 1, Redundant) by arcz on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:34PM

              by arcz (4501) on Sunday December 03 2017, @03:34PM (#604679) Journal

              (I would think the better approach would be the computer fraud and abuse act, since you could say that access to the network using a cheat client is unauthorized, but that's just my opinion I guess.)

    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:22PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:22PM (#603716)

      Just because you don't like cheaters doesn't mean that anything done in the name of stopping them is alright. The ends don't justify the means. If the owners of the servers want to ban them, then so be it, but that should be the extent of it. I'm not sure what copyright claims they could possibly have, but they are nonsense regardless of what courts or lawyers say. The DMCA is similarly garbage.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Virindi on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:03PM (2 children)

    by Virindi (3484) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:03PM (#603420)

    So from what I can gather, there are two parts to this. First, a video DMCA takedown'd of him cheating. Second, a claim that he developed the cheat.

    For point one, it is pretty clear to me that the video should count as fair use or even as a new work. I love how the discussion assumes that the company that makes a game has some kind of right to absolute control over any footage of someone playing it.

    The other part of the claim, that the kid developed the cheat (and thus damaged their sales), is a different question and doesn't have much to do with the display of the video....but the two are being mixed together. This is probably because the second claim is going to be much harder to prove and seems unlikely.

    Bottom line, the publisher is using a stretched copyright claim on the video as a smokescreen to lay on a bunch of unprovable other claims. But as is typical with the little guy, the mom and kid probably can't afford a legal defense for this, so their response is just ridiculous. Too bad.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:11PM (#603619)

      But as is typical with the little guy, the mom and kid probably can't afford a legal defense for this, so their response is just ridiculous. Too bad.

      This is what the EFF is for; to keep beating corporate camels on the snout to stop them parking their ass in our tent.

    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:27PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Thursday November 30 2017, @11:27PM (#603719)

      The other part of the claim, that the kid developed the cheat (and thus damaged their sales),

      The very idea that you're entitled to (largely unknowable) potential profits and can actually sue people who developed cheating tools that people voluntarily run on their own computers merely because they have some unknown impact on sales is simply insane. Anything anyone does could impact sales, but you're not entitled to other people's money that they haven't even given you yet. This is just another example of the insanity of companies that develop non-free proprietary user-subjugating software.

      But people have a negative emotional reaction to cheaters, so therefore anything done in the name of stopping them is inherently justifiable. Maybe we should exterminate humanity to get rid of pickpockets. How very principled.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Snotnose on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:12PM (13 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:12PM (#603424)

    I remember years ago when Modern Warfare had been out for 3-4 months. I suddenly started dieing much more frequently and, watching the kill cams, it was obvious some people were using wall hacks and aimbots. Posted about it on the MW3 message board and got flamed mercilessly. "OMG quit blaming your poor play on hackers!" "MW3 is the most secure game ever developed, no way can it be hacked!" etc etc etc.

    I've been doing multiplayer from the beginning and I know how to spot cheaters. Turns out I was right too, a few months later people were constantly bitching about cheaters.

    I hate cheaters and, if I had the skillz, when I detected one I would brick their platform.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
    • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:20PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:20PM (#603425)

      Snotnose is an accurate handle. Zomg cheaters! It's a game, grow up.

      • (Score: 2) by Spamalope on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:25PM (5 children)

        by Spamalope (5233) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:25PM (#603429) Homepage

        Cheaters in competitive gameplay make the game unplayable. Adults don't have time for that. Grow up and stop cheaters.

        • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by FakeBeldin on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:37PM (4 children)

          by FakeBeldin (3360) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:37PM (#603435) Journal

          You do realise that capitalism is basically competitive play, with money to keep track of your score, right?

          • (Score: 2) by infodragon on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:53PM (3 children)

            by infodragon (3509) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:53PM (#603444)

            And people go to jail for cheating in capitalism! ZOMG STOP CHEATING!

            I understand there is corruption and back dealing and cronyism and all sorts of unsavory stuff going on... Just like in multiplayer games, however there are still quite a few that do get caught and punished. They get their ranking removed (money confiscated) and banned (go to jail). A game is just a game and punishment should be consummate with the crime. If a bank is robbed they have insurance, if the bank's security is garbage they won't get insured... If a game's security is garbage then they should suffer the consequences!

            --
            Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:15PM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:15PM (#603657) Journal

        Zomg cheaters! It's a game, grow up.

        Why do you hate capitalism? If it the interests on anything is high, there's money to be made.
        In the context, competitive games, esports [wikipedia.org], dedicated "TV" channels [wikipedia.org] and a prospect to Olympics [theguardian.com].

        That's money, lots of money that won't be denied to the young industry, you get it?

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:00PM (1 child)

      by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:00PM (#603448) Journal

      LOL! No chance one or more players were in the same room on different machines? I remember playing CS with my brother in the "computer room" where we had both of our PC's. Once killed, you were allowed to flip through the other players cameras or even free fly around the map in "ghost" mode waiting for the round to end. Playing the map: dust, and two players are left standing, my brother and a player on the opposite team. 5 minutes left in the round and the map was changing in 10 and everyones loves dust so one more round! So I'm watching the two walk around in a loop always out of each other's view. I'm cracking up because the two kept moving around looking for one another but never bumped into each other. The round is ending and he turns around and is like: "dude, where the fuck is this ass hole so I can end this damn round already." He sees where the dude is hiding on my screen, makes a b line for him and mows him down. Guy was flipping shit claiming he was wall hacking so my brother joking tells him "I heard you crouching". Everyone laughed and no one cared. Cheating? YUP! Did we do it often? Not really. But it was inevitable when we played together because all you had to do was turn your head 90 degrees to see each others screens.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @11:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @11:03AM (#603858)

        If the game provides a way to see where you got killed from, relaying that information to your team is not cheating. It's a deliberate part of the game design.

        Joining the game as a spectator, that's more of a gray area, but again, those who made the game decided you should have the option.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:00PM

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:00PM (#603476)

      Posted about it on the MW3 message board and got flamed mercilessly. "OMG quit blaming your poor play on hackers!" "MW3 is the most secure game ever developed, no way can it be hacked!" etc etc etc.

      I've been doing multiplayer from the beginning and I know how to spot cheaters. Turns out I was right too, a few months later people were constantly bitching about cheaters.

      You should have taken note of the people who flamed you, and then when they bitched about cheaters later, used the exact same argument on them with references to their own postings.

    • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:38PM (1 child)

      by crafoo (6639) on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:38PM (#603665)

      They're just playing a different game than you. Or the same game by slightly different rules. Whatever. In any case they are better at it than you. Stop complaining like a baby. Get good and play the game by the new rules or go find another game.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @05:28AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @05:28AM (#603810)

        It sure is interesting seeing further examples of how you libertarian types interact with reality. "Get good or chest" lol whatever crapoo.

  • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:26PM (10 children)

    by Fnord666 (652) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:26PM (#603430) Homepage
    Now IANAL, but it's my understanding that minors cannot enter into a legally binding contract in the US on their own. If that is true then any terms and conditions stated in the EULA should be null and void, and EPIC should have no standing to bring a case against the minor for any claims rising for violations of those terms.
    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:30PM (9 children)

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:30PM (#603433) Journal

      Watch the last link in the summary.

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:39PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:39PM (#603438)

        Is there a transcript anywhere by chance.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:07PM (5 children)

          by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:07PM (#603450) Journal

          Well that's pretty interesting. What do we think of that? I have a few problems with this. First, a 14-year-old child can in fact enter into a contract. Now, how enforceable that contract is... sure, children definitely do have different contract rights than adults. But that doesn't mean that a child can't enter into a contract and be responsible for the damage that someone causes. There are lots of cases about children entering into contracts for either equipment or machinery or vehicles and then claiming that they're not responsible for the damage that they cause, like anyone else may by negligent operation or something like that.

          So in this case, the cheating that Caleb is accused of is fairly serious in that they're saying that it helped destroy or hurt the growth of the game, and I can confirm that I stopped playing the game because of the cheating that was going on. So it's not like Epic Games doesn't have a complaint. The question is can they sue a child, and the answer is yes they can. Whether or not they released personal information... I don't think so. You're allowed to sue someone in court, and you must name who you're suing.

          Then, even in her first paragraph, she admits that he did use the cheats during a livestream on YouTube, so Epic's case is more or less made for them here. The question is, what's the damage? What's the remedy? And if there is in fact no legal remedy that is recognizable here, then the dismissal would probably be proper, but if there is a recognizable legal remedy, then the case will be allowed to proceed. I'm not sure how the court is going to treat this. It's on the docket as a "letter" but it could be seen as a request for dismissal, and Epic may want to figure out what their response should be.

          Another thing that I found here. In Delaware, there is no limit on parental responsibility for the torts of a minor. So if Mr. Caleb is found to be liable for some amount of money, the amount of money would be something that the parent is responsible for. In all honesty, I'm sure that Epic Games is going to use their good judgment on this one, but at the same time I would definitely recommend that Ms. Lauren Rogers go and find an attorney in her area that would be able to help her with this situation here. Because Caleb is going to need to answer this complaint unless Epic Games decides to drop the whole thing just because he's 14.

          I don't know. What do you think? Would you drop the case just because he's 14, or do you think that something needs to be done about the cheating situation, especially in Fortnite, which I haven't actually played it in a little bit so somebody let me know how it has been recently. When the Battle Royale mode first came out, it was absolutely terrible. It's not like there wasn't a problem. So there's something that has to be addressed here.

          I doubt that a simple letter from Mom is going to undo the whole court case, and I do recommend that Ms. Rogers do seek the advice of an attorney with regards to this particular case lest she wind up admitting things to the opposing side and end up being liable for some amount of money. Or at the very best, Epic is looking for at least injunctive relief to prevent Caleb from using these tools again or streaming their game or things like that. So there's remedies that I think are available here and I don't think that the case will be dismissed just because of Mom's letter. We'll see what happens. Maybe Epic will reach out to Ms. Lauren Rogers and we'll have some kind of dismissal of the case based on some kind of settlement or something like that. Either way, I think the message has definitely been sent that they take cheating seriously and they don't want cheaters to be playing their games.

          --
          [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 3, TouchĂ©) by ilsa on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:27PM

            by ilsa (6082) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:27PM (#603498)

            Thank you. I despise being forced to watch videos when I can read the content in 1/10th of the time.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:58PM (2 children)

            by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:58PM (#603514) Journal

            If they were smart, they would just ban him and get on with life. Alas, they already showed they're not that smart. So instead parents will learn that letting their kids play Epic games opens them to an unreasonable liability.

            Meanwhile, since the suit has nothing to do with copyright but Epic claims it arises out if a DMCA counter-claim, they have admitted by implication that their initial action was a knowing abuse of the DMCA.

            • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:02PM (1 child)

              by etherscythe (937) on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:02PM (#603650) Journal

              They did ban him, multiple times. He opened new accounts and kept on trolling.

              --
              "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Thursday November 30 2017, @10:43PM

                by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 30 2017, @10:43PM (#603693) Journal

                I haven't seen that anywhere. But nevertheless, Epic has still made it clear that the most rational parental decision is to ban all Epic games until they become less sue happy.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:19PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:19PM (#603559)

            Thank you!

      • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:12PM (1 child)

        by Fnord666 (652) on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:12PM (#603591) Homepage
        Thanks, I will.
  • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:42PM

    by isostatic (365) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:42PM (#603439) Journal

    IDDQD

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by meustrus on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:45PM (3 children)

    by meustrus (4961) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:45PM (#603440)

    It should be possible to detect cheating on the server, right? It ought to to simple enough to build cheat detection into the matchmaking system to pair cheaters and suspected cheaters together. Then they can go play a different game while the non-cheaters play the game as intended. It works even if your detection system isn't super accurate. I can imagine Amazon selling an AI product to back this.

    --
    If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
    • (Score: 2) by infodragon on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:57PM

      by infodragon (3509) on Thursday November 30 2017, @02:57PM (#603446)

      The cheaters then enter a meta-gaming game of competitive cheating rather than competitive play. In some ways that would rock, in other ways that would totally suck because competition breeds a better product and that may lead to cheats so good they are EXTREMELY difficult to detect... So the cheating pool of players would be a breeding ground for uber cheats and the cheating creators would then enter an arms race. This is the true reason SkyNet will be born!

      --
      Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:27PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:27PM (#603864)

      Most cheating is only possible because the server sends more data to the client than the client ought to know, for performance reasons. How much of this "performance reasons" are actually still needed these days, I'm not sure that's a question anyone has considered recently, it may very well just be a case of "that's how we've always done it".

      Then there are things like aim-bots, developing a piece of code that's actually better at playing than the actual player. These cannot reliably be detected, an aim-bot does not need to be perfect, for most cheaters an aim-bot that's worse than top players would still be a huge boost. And then comes the discussion about whether aim-bots are really cheating in the first place. Are self-driving cars cheating? Are those automatic gun turrets at the North/South Korean border cheating?

      It becomes a question of how you define the game in question. Is it a sport, like soccer? Or a fight to win, like a war? Something like Call of Duty, it would be hard to convince people that it's a sport, not a fighting like a war.

      In the end, the solution is probably to give up on the whole "sports" aspect of fighting against people you can't see and with no referee.

      • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Friday December 01 2017, @02:44PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Friday December 01 2017, @02:44PM (#603902)

        Game logic is not hard to process. There is no excuse for sharing concealed information with the client. Honestly, I would think it would make performance worse to send the client the locations of all opponents; without that information, nobody gets rendered right?

        But concealed information aside, a matchmaking system that's doing its job should handle aim-bots just fine. Maybe the aim-bit cheater ends up in a higher bracket than he should be based on skill alone. He's still not a great player at the higher bracket, because there's still (hopefully) room for tactics. It just might prevent you from making aiming the primary challenge of the game, which...let's face it, the ability to aim well with a controller or even with a mouse and keyboard is just not enough to carry more than a tech demo. Might as well be playing Link's Crossbow Training at that point.

        Relying on that mechanic also makes it impossible to create good AI for single player, since without simulating the hands and the input device there's no way the computer will have any kind of nuanced difference between "aimbot sniped you peeking out of cover from across the map" and "stormtrooper misses so much you'd think it was trying to let them escape".

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Oakenshield on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:01PM (8 children)

    by Oakenshield (4900) on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:01PM (#603449)

    I listened to the YouTube lawyer analysis and read many of the YouTube comments and only have this to say. What the fuck is wrong with you gamers? Seriously? It's a GAME! If you don't like cheaters, ban them, but to justify suing a kid because he shows others how to cheat is absolutely insane. I have a kid who is obsessed with his gaming to the point of it interfering with his social and academic life and I see now why I just need to cut him right the fuck off completely. It's not much better than Heroin. He plays and gets angry during the games. I ask him why he plays if it makes him so upset all the time, but he goes right back for that fix just like an addict.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:14PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:14PM (#603483)

      Haha yaaa, I've never seen people get angry in other hobbies. Pool, cycling, any sports basically. I've seen people get angry in real life when they think they're being cheated. Yup, all heroin addicts!! I will say you should make sure his gaming doesn't interfere with a normal life, but otherwise chill out.

      • (Score: 2) by Oakenshield on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:59PM (4 children)

        by Oakenshield (4900) on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:59PM (#603615)

        Haha yaaa, I've never seen people get angry in other hobbies. Pool, cycling, any sports basically. I've seen people get angry in real life when they think they're being cheated. Yup, all heroin addicts!! I will say you should make sure his gaming doesn't interfere with a normal life, but otherwise chill out.

        He doesn't just get angry now-and-then, he stays angry. And he behaves like a jerk to his family. He explodes when he is called to dinner while gaming, even when he knows what time dinner is going to be. I eventually have to take away his computer or block it at the router. He rants (and sleeps) for a couple of days, but then he becomes a good child again... until... he gets his computer back. Then he's an asshole again. THAT'S ADDICT BEHAVIOR. I had been considering just banning it altogether for some time. It sounds like it's time.

        Some people are gambling addicts. Some are alcohol addicts. Some are drug addicts. Some are gaming addicts. From the looks of how fucking out-of-touch people apparently are over this YouTube kid, it sounds like they only care about feeding their own addictions no matter what is right or reasonable.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @05:26AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @05:26AM (#603809)

          Your kid definitely has some serious issues if what you describe is true. As for commenters, I see a mix of anger about cheaters which is understandable, and irritation from others that anyone dares get mad about cheating. "Its just a prank/game bro!" Lawl. Then there are those calling out epic's lawsuit as ridiculous. I think you just have an axe to grind since your experiencing a kid with a real addiction problem.

          • (Score: 2) by Oakenshield on Friday December 01 2017, @12:57PM (1 child)

            by Oakenshield (4900) on Friday December 01 2017, @12:57PM (#603874)

            He definitely has some issues. When he is away from his games, he is watching videos on his phone of other people playing games. It's nuts. His older brother experienced the same thing for about two years until he quit gaming and moved on with his life. A member of my extended family has logged over 2,000 hours on Overwatch. He's 28 and married but only works part time because it interferes with his gaming. 2,000 hours is a full time job for an entire year. They don't have enough money to pay attention, but he has a $500 video card.

            My Alma Mater has a study area that was appropriated by gamers. It was nicknamed the Loser Lounge. The disheveled, greasy, socially dysfunctional misfits that inhabited it inspired everyone else to abandon it. They sit around there all day gaming against each other.

            Do I have an axe to grind? You betcha. Do I retract that there are a lot of addicted gamers and they are defending Epic against common sense and reason? No.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @11:48PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @11:48PM (#604099)

              He's 28 and married but only works part time because it interferes with his gaming. 2,000 hours is a full time job for an entire year.

              How horribly that he does something he likes instead of slaving away for corporations 24/7 until he hits old age. Now that is the True Way to Live.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:36PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:36PM (#603869)

          Problem with addicttion is: Some people become addicts, some do not. It's hereditary in many cases, probably genetic but could also be early parental influence. But for those that do, they can often become addicted to anything: Gaming, gambling, sugar, alcohol, drugs (even the non-addictive ones).

    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:31PM

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday November 30 2017, @06:31PM (#603565) Journal

      Never judge humanity based solely on YouTube comments. Or do, and prepare to utterly condemn humanity.

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:11PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Thursday November 30 2017, @08:11PM (#603620)

      > It's a GAME! If you don't like cheaters, ban them

      And since it's a free game, they won't even find a lawyer to sue you for taking away their right to play what they didn't pay for.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:18PM (5 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:18PM (#603456) Journal

    Imagine a new type of Triggerbot that is completely external to the OS on which the game is running. An external computer, with computer vision, looking at the gameplay. Perhaps through a webcam. When an opponent enters into view, it is automatically targeted and shot by providing correct mouse / keystroke inputs to the computer running the game.

    This would be a technical achievement. I suppose it is cheating.

    The reason I say this is that I play this one-player puzzle sometimes called Traffic Jam or Unblock Me. I became so good at it that even at the highest expert mode it became almost mechanical to solve. Except for a few puzzles. (Which I did solve after spending more time on them.) In 2010 I wrote a Java command line text only program to solve these puzzles.

    Sidetrack: Using breadth first search. When each node generates its children nodes (eg, the possible moves from that game board) it actually generates an object that implements the Iterator interface to provide the subsequent game boards from legal moves. It is this object which is placed at the end of the queue of next boards to examine. When the search pulls a game board off the queue, if that object is an iterator, it actually calls the iterator function to get the board, rather than removing the Iterator off the head of the queue. If the Iterator is empty, it removes and and looks at the next object in the queue. When examining each board, first check if the puzzle is solved. If not, check if we've ever examined this board before (if we had, we would not have performed the previous solved test.) The 'seen before' test is first based on the hashCode(), then on an actual equality test of any past board(s) with the same hashCode(). If not seen before, then get the game board's child node Iterator and push it on the tail of the queue. Next the search gets the head of the queue which is either more boards at the current search depth, or the first node at next deeper search level. When a solved board is found, that board has a list of all of the ancestor boards back to the original puzzle presentation. Thus a "solution" list of moves and boards along the solution path. And it will be the (or a) shortest solution path because we breadth first search, and if we had seen this solution state previously, then that would have been the solution path. Ensuring we don't re-process previously seen boards, avoids infinite loops of moves that lead back to a previous state. I generalized my search with a Node, a BreadthFirstSearch>, etc where T extends NodeInterface that provides basics like the child node iterator, examine function, etc.

    I put in the puzzle by modifying one special class with the initial puzzle state. Yes, ugly. But this is a simple, ugly command line tool which prints out the solution and how many milliseconds it took. It only uses one core because single threaded. And it never takes even one second to find solution to even the most difficult puzzles.

    Back on track:

    Is using this tool a cheat? I wrote it for my own personal amusement and technical enrichment. The Unblock Me puzzle android app does keep track of who is really good at the game. But I don't care about that. I'm not competing against anybody. (And I did actually put in my dues to become very very good at this puzzle.)

    Using my general approach above I could solve all sorts of puzzle games. Including simple adaptation to do Minimax with Alpha-Beta pruning to solve two-player zero sum games. I suppose that would be cheating.

    Hypothetically, what if I built an Open CV driven Lego Mindstorms robot arm that played the puzzle game on a smartphone. Place smartphone on table, robot arm starts making strokes on the screen to solve puzzle. Is that cheating, or a technical achievement worth promoting and creating more noise of YouTube "Look At Me!!!" videos?

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:25PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:25PM (#603460) Journal

      I generalized my search with a Node, a BreadthFirstSearch>, etc where T extends NodeInterface that provides basics like the child node iterator, examine function, etc.

      Let me rewrite this sentence for HTML. Ugh . . .

        I generalized my search with a Node<T>, a BreadthFirstSearch<T>, etc where T extends NodeInterface that provides basics like the child node iterator, examine function, etc.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:28PM

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday November 30 2017, @03:28PM (#603461) Journal

      There are other ways to cheat than achieving "perfection". For example I've personally seen someone use a lag switch [wikipedia.org] to degrade the Internet connection to their Xbox. And of course, there are countless instances of in-game bugs being found and exploited to a player's advantage with no need to download and run code. I'm not sure what kind of "cheats" the kid used except that he is accused of downloading his cheats and "modifying the game" (probably a stretch).

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:19PM (2 children)

      by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday November 30 2017, @04:19PM (#603490) Journal

      Is using this tool a cheat?

      That depends on if you are using the term legally or morally, and what the rules are. Legally and relating it to TFA, what EULA is present when you play the game? If that EULA said you will not attempt to use any assistance in the game, then yeah, it's a legally defined cheat. But their EULA would have to specify that you can't do that, somehow.

      Even if it is a legal cheat, to make it an actionable tort AFAIK the game makers would have to prove how they were damaged by your using it. That isn't terribly hard if they are making money or prestige by having the game out there. But it still must be proven.

      Morally, is it a cheat? If you used it in praxis, for ethical grounds I won't detail because they seem obvious, yes. You injured everyone else trying to make a high score honestly. If you simply developed it but used it in a way nobody was harmed (for your intellectual development) then no.

      In online chess play, something akin to your robot idea already exists. Many chess platforms (Internet Chess Club being the first to do so I think many many years ago) incorporate various mechanisms to make sure you're not running a chess program on the same platform that's running the interface. If they detect you're cheating that way, you're banned. BUT, the dodge now that computers are cheap is you run a second computer (or tablet, or phone, whatever) running a chess application. Your eyes and fingers but using a separate computer engine. And you're the robot. While there are still ways to investigate and detect such cheating, the primary response of the online chess community is that the vast vast majority of games run at time controls so fast (two minutes plus twelve seconds increment per move per side is common) that using an engine won't help you much. I have many high rated friends who refuse to play online because they believe they will be playing computers and not people.

      A sideline of that is in correspondence play. Most correspondence play now takes place on servers over the internet, but others (prison is most common) still utilizes postcards. Some players don't consider it a cheat to use a computer engine to "blundercheck" - just make sure that the move they will play isn't an obvious blunder. They're wrong, and it is, but the belief persists. And there's a long history of determining what is and is not cheating. Like the start, it all depends on the house rules as to what all players agree to. General consensus is that you can use books, magazines, and databases of already-played games including probabilities, you just can't use an engine to actively analyze and report your game. But again, what are the established rules... that's what determines what is and is not cheating.

      --
      This sig for rent.
      • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:18PM

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Thursday November 30 2017, @07:18PM (#603594) Journal

        > I have many high rated friends who refuse to play online because they believe they will be playing computers and not people.

        I was a professional chess player, made it to class A, but I moved on in large part because computers showed me the hopelessness of the all human approach to improving at that particular game. Also at that level, it becomes as much a game of mental stamina as mental cunning. A major way to win chess games at those levels is by being patient, trying to avoid mistakes, and waiting for your opponent screw up. To sustain the concentration for the hours necessary to pull that off gets harder as you age. If I were to take up chess again, I'd want to have computers helping me pick the moves. At the least, I'd like something to warn me against blunders. Music was the same. I was in grade school and had been subjected to piano lessons when I first heard an Apple II computer play a few ditties, note perfect every time, without practicing, and I realized a career in music based on being only a good player was a non-starter.

        Most good board games are perfect fodder for computer analysis. Chess was one of the first to fall, because it had acquired a reputation for being _the_ thinking person's game, and therefore was in the AI community's crosshairs from the beginning. If we don't have it already, I expect to see a more general board game AI that can learn any board game so well that no person can beat it.

        So a lot of this crying about "cheating", well, no. Computer chess players do not cheat, don't try to take one of your pieces off the board while your back is turned (as if you wouldn't notice that) or some such, yet they have what can only be called an unfair advantage over humans. So it is with shooters.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 01 2017, @12:39PM (#603870)

        what EULA is present when you play the game?

        That's easy, the EULA is a "contract after the fact" and thus void in any country with a sane legal system (i.e. any country with less than straight up corporatism).

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by crafoo on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:44PM

    by crafoo (6639) on Thursday November 30 2017, @09:44PM (#603670)

    There is no guarantee that any business model must be profitable. If online competitive gaming isn't profitable it doesn't become an existential crisis for our society or even our economy. If we try to force it to be so through sacrificing our freedom, then I would say we have clearly failed to do the right thing.

    We have the right to reverse engineer software. We have the right to run whatever binaries we would like on our systems and do whatever we would like with the bits in our computer's memory. Copyright restricts our ability to copy and redistribute someone else's work. That is it. Any other expansion of this restriction to our rights must be fought on every front.

(1)