It's been about a month since American Express and Mastercard decided to stop requiring signatures for EMV chip credit cards. Now Visa is joining their ranks, making signatures optional for chipped transactions in North America.
"Visa is committed to delivering secure, fast and convenient payments at the point of sale," said VIsa's Dan Sanford in a statement. "Our focus is on continually evolving the market towards dynamic authentication methods such as EMV chip, as well as investing in emerging capabilities that leverage advanced analytics and biometrics. We believe making the signature requirement optional for EMV chip-enabled merchants is the responsible next step to enhance security and convenience at the point of sale."
Source: https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/12/visa-signatures-optional-credit-cards-emv/
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @05:03AM (30 children)
My grocery store hasn't required a signature for purchases under $50 for years now, even back when they used mag-swipes.
I'd be absolutely shocked to find out that those signatures are used for anything at all in 99,999/100,000 transactions. Maybe once in a blue moon they might pull out a signature to try to convince a card holder that they actually did approve a transaction, but I've never heard of even that actually happening.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by frojack on Monday January 15 2018, @05:45AM (25 children)
What ever happened to Chip AND Pin?
Not only do they not Ask for a signature, they never even ask for a pin.
So all they know is that the card is valid.
But is it stolen?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @05:57AM (5 children)
Gas stations have never asked for signatures at the pump... I don't think it's the signature so much as the lack of human interaction that emboldens card thieves and forgers to make gas stations one of the highest fraud venues for credit cards.
Some retail, like WalMart, actually asks for photo ID to go with the card, and I think that's a good thing.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday January 15 2018, @06:27AM (2 children)
Hmm, I could have sworn that Walmart did no such thing. I don't remember signatures or photo ID being checked (for chipped credit cards). It has been a while since I went there though.
Wal-Mart exec: Credit card upgrade a 'joke' [cnn.com]
Everything about the rollout has seemed haphazard to me.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @01:45PM
I think Wal-Mart is pretty haphazard in their implementation of corporate policies.
I don't go there often, but I have been since they put in the chip readers, and at that time, at that store, they asked for drivers' license.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:31PM
Big stores check for ID in black areas.
(Score: 2) by number11 on Monday January 15 2018, @06:56PM (1 child)
Not the WalMart I was in last week. Nor a sig. But my bill might have been below the floor limit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @09:32PM
I just had the occasion to go shopping in a midwestern Walmart for a close friend using his credit card: an authorized user that no one but the cardholder knew about, over $100, no signature and no photo ID.
(Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @06:00AM (17 children)
We've only been doing chip-and-pin for 30 years in Europe, usually on terminals that accept the transaction fast, then dial home later, without the card ever leaving your sight.
The official answer from the a\banks was that chip-and-pin was too "confusing" for the Americans (really). Which is either calling them dumb, or worrying that having to remember 25 pins might be a hindrance to getting more debt than you really should...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @10:37AM
Come to Germany. Signatures requires. Yes, Germany still part of Europe.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Monday January 15 2018, @11:10AM (3 children)
sudo mod me up
(Score: 4, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday January 15 2018, @12:02PM
Not quite 30 years, but we've had fish and cushion payments here in the UK for at least a decade, and it doesn't seem to have brought about the end times.[1]
[1] We have various other things we can blame our current mess on.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Wootery on Monday January 15 2018, @12:41PM
This seems to happen constantly with patents. Is this a market failure? Are the patent-holders just setting their price-point too high, or is it instead the hassle and uncertainty that stop adoption?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @03:24PM
I'm in Denmark, and while the chip is new-ish, we've been doing magstripe and pin ever since the first credit card was introduced more than 30 years ago.
But Germany... I'm not surprised, it's actually rare to be able to pay with credit card in Germany, even when ordering online.
(Score: 4, Informative) by aclarke on Monday January 15 2018, @01:36PM (2 children)
Not "the Americas". We've used chip and PIN in Canada for a long time. I can't remember the last time I was asked to sign a credit card purchase. Going to the US and using my credit card makes me feel like I'm going a couple decades back in time.
The statements attached to this article from the credit card confuse me for this reason. Maybe they're not longer requiring signatures for chip purchases, but then again in Canada it's always chip+PIN. Plus of course contactless for amounts $100 which require neither a PIN nor a signature.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by aclarke on Monday January 15 2018, @01:39PM (1 child)
Oops, I read "too confusing for the Americans" as "too confusing for the Americas". I also think that Americans are very suspicious of and resistant to any sort of change, which leaves them stuck with antiquated ideas like magnetic stripe credit cards, health insurance for basic needs, dollar bills, etc.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @12:17AM
I'm guessing your thought process went like this:
1. Read the phrase "Too confusing for Americans"
2. Hey Canada is in America!!
3. Eh
4. Must take jab at poster for not properly referring to people in the "USA" as "USians" or "the US population".
5. Hit Submit
6. Wait a sec, I'm Canadian? Did I just logically imply I'm an American?
7. Holy shit! I wear clothing embossed with giant maple leafs when I travel overseas, and damned anyone that refers to me as "American" instead of Canadian.
8. To save face I must mentally redefine "America" as "A subset of the Americas, and not in and of itself all of North and South America"
9. Submit correction post attributed to confusion between "America" and "The Americas"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:01PM (8 children)
1. Having multiple credit cards and using them frequently doesn't mean that you actually have any debt. Just keep all those cards paid down to zero. Never use the card unless you were prepared to write a check for it as soon as you get home and pay off the card online. Get all of the huge rewards of using CC's but never get into debt. If you are going to purchase something expensive, then save up for it, like sensible people do. Then buy it on a CC and pay off the CC that same day.
2. Don't flinch at calling Americans dumb. Look who we have as president. I'm sure that remembering more than one pin is simply too confusing for most non geeks watching reality tv trailer park shows. (true, even if inciteful or informative) Please be careful about inviting the orange jackass to visit europe.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @05:08PM (3 children)
I'm not sure your 1. is compatible with your 2., which is kind of the point for credit card companies. :)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:37PM (2 children)
I have done the 1 for years. But I didn't vote for the 2. So maybe they are mutually exclusive.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @05:54PM (1 child)
There's a billions-of-dollar industry based on 2.
We the members of the 1. club are a minority.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @09:47PM
You must be disciplined to treat a CC as if it were a debit card. Sadly, that probably is a minority.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday January 15 2018, @05:40PM (3 children)
3. Clown who has never heard of a debit card presumes to lecture others on how to run their country.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:44PM (2 children)
Debit cards don't pay you for using them. Airline points. Disney dollars. Amazon dollars. Cruise ship dollars.
But be sure you use a CC as if it were a debit card.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by etherscythe on Monday January 15 2018, @08:29PM (1 child)
They also don't have the consumer protections that a credit card does. Woe to thee whose debit card number is stolen and on which big charges are piled up.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @09:45PM
I would also point out that Credit Cards have a dispute process for dealing with bad merchants or bad products. We've never had to use this, but it's nice to know it is there. The reason for this is that the CC companies DON'T WANT bad merchants in their payment network. Sometimes CCs also offer other protections.
I once used Debit Cards what seems like a lifetime ago when I was young and didn't know better. But CCs are the way to go -- as long as you NEVER borrow money with them. If you don't have the discipline to do this, then stick with debit cards. That's probably why they exist.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday January 15 2018, @04:16PM
I use a credit union in Washington state
Some the merchant doesn't have a chip reader. For those I can still swipe
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Monday January 15 2018, @05:43PM (3 children)
Here in the Third World I'm using credit (and debit) cards with chips, PIN required, for decades.
Even my first credit card was like that, and that was some 20 years ago.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @07:26PM (2 children)
US paper money is also some of the easiest in the world to counterfeit... I'm wondering if any vested interests are actively keeping it that way...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @08:51PM
Just all the signs that the US hasn't been a functioning democracy or free market capitalism in 40 years.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday January 15 2018, @10:11PM
I've heard that there are billions of dollars in US paper currency around the world, much of it representing the secret life savings of relatively poor people in countries with autocratic governments and currency restrictions. They can spend their money on black markets, but changing an entire life's savings from an old currency to a new one is dangerous. Too easy to get caught by authorities.
This makes it difficult to invalidate old forms of currency without causing harm.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @05:04AM (15 children)
Why, it's my ass!
The only reason they're removing the signature requirement is so there's less potential evidence for a card holder to be able to dispute a charge.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @05:18AM (11 children)
R u conjuring the Assteller?
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @05:33AM (10 children)
The assteller offends my sensibilities less than someone abbreviating a three-letter word.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday January 15 2018, @06:01AM (9 children)
You won't believe what you can learn on S/N: TMB is in not way different by the special snowflakes.
Not only that TMB has an ass at the bottom of his back, but he also has sensibilities!!!
Remember guys, you can learn this kinda things only on S/N! (so maybe it's a good time to pay some subscriptions).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Monday January 15 2018, @06:22AM
Almost time to start adding ⚠TRIGGER WARNINGS⚠ just for TMB.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @10:05AM (1 child)
Snowflakes can suck a dick. I've been yelling at the ones out front to get off my lawn for days now and their hippie asses are still there in the millions. The only good thing about them is they're fun to piss on.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by cmdrklarg on Monday January 15 2018, @05:54PM
I hear playing Slayer at high volume is the way to remove a hippie infestation.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:13PM (5 children)
An ass whisperer might be able to tell me how many people have a subscriber badge but keep it hidden from view. Alas, guidance on this does not seem to be forthcoming from anyone in the
shitewhite house. Single letter typos almost too easy to make are they by adjacent keys almost resulting in sharp or flat.The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday January 15 2018, @10:15PM (2 children)
Why is there a sharp key on my keyboard but no flat key? What do they have against trumpet players?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @10:23PM
That trumpets don't have MIDI interface? Or USB port?
If not that, then I don't know.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:36AM
Because it's not a sharp symbol, it's typically referred to as the pound sign or possibly the number sign.
It's mostly morons that learned C# that seem to think otherwise. Most of us old enough to know better prior to MS inventing the language wouldn't be using that as our first guess at the meaning of the symbol.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:36AM (1 child)
Badge public or hidden from view is almost irrelevant when considered from the perspective of the Funding goal [soylentnews.org]
There are 6000+ members, if all would contribute $1/year, the base goal would be exceeded.
T's not like S/N is looking to make profits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday January 16 2018, @02:31PM
If everyone would get a subscription, that would exceed $1/year.
It was in a conversation about the evils of advertising you convinced me to get a subscription. For the same reason I pay for Netflix with no ads. Hulu with no ads. HBO with no ads. I could go on and on.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @10:58AM (2 children)
Except, mister snowflake, they have cameras. So, if you are right there buying shit and then say it wasn't you, then trouble. But if vendor has no proof you were there (and especially if you report card stolen), then CC just charges them back.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 15 2018, @12:56PM
Your definition of "they" needs work. Not remotely every place you can use a credit card has cameras.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:20PM
What happened when someone a few years ago lifted the chips from stolen high limit cards and 'retrofit' them onto lower limit stolen cards?
They didn't use no steenkin' cameras!
They subpoenaed the cell phone carriers for data to locate all phones in the vicinity of each fraudulent purchase, within a few minute time range of each purchase. Then they spot which single sail phone is in common to all of the fraudulent purchases. Then pay1 them a very nice visit.
1but don't pay that visit with a credit card
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by https on Monday January 15 2018, @05:36AM (1 child)
Aiming for convenience always sacrifices security.
Offended and laughing about it.
(Score: 4, Informative) by TheRaven on Monday January 15 2018, @11:24AM
Here, the problem is that adding the inconvenience doesn't actually increase security. This was the same problem as CACert: they attempted to create a web of trust by requiring everyone to validate that they'd seen two pieces of government-issued ID from other people, until enough people had seen yours that you looked trustworthy. Only, here's the problem: none of the people inspecting the many different forms of ID from any different governments had been trained in recognising forged ones. Signatures are an incredibly bad way of performing authentication because non-forged ones vary considerably and even a trained professional can find it difficult to distinguish this variation from a poor forgery (and a good forgery will usually look more like the reference than the real thing would).
Requiring a PIN is more secure, because it can be checked by computer. You're still vulnerable to weaknesses in the EMV protocol and trojaned keypads, but it's a lot better than nothing.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday January 15 2018, @05:47AM (5 children)
In Australia, the default limit without signature is $100 (AUD)
This is configurable by the vendor, but most don't know that, or bother)
disputed transactions under the limit are likley both minimal in number and easier to refund (by the bank) than pay someone to investigate.
Few will bother stealing a card to only ise it to buy a few groceries - real (worthwhile?) fraud requires online access to accounts.
YMMV, your country's consumer protection laws may be less effective, but convenience is backed by the banks' willingness to just refund problem payments (and possibly, "deal" with the vendor, if this happens too often).
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @06:03AM (2 children)
2 to 3% transaction fees seem more than adequate to cover fraud.
I invested in Visa shortly after they went public. They're up about 700% in the last 9 years, sustained 24% annual growth isn't bad...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:34PM (1 child)
That 2 to 3% transaction fee, plus, I suppose, the outrageous interest paid by people who actually borrow money on their credit cards, is what pays for a significant chunk of my personal flights, disney dollars, amazon dollars, etc.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @07:14PM
I used to think they made their money on interest and service charges, but I wonder (not enough to actually dig into a quarterly report)... on balance, those same people who incur the interest and service charges are probably the source of most, perhaps nearly all, of their late-payment, non-payment, default, bankrupcty, fraud and other issues.
Maybe in the past it cost more than 2% to manage the basic cash flow, but I'd bet it costs less than that now.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Monday January 15 2018, @04:32PM (1 child)
That only makes sense since it is the merchant who is assuming the liability for the transaction by choosing to not require a signature. If the charge is disputed the merchant is on the hook since they did not follow the verification protocol dictated by the credit network. Most merchants just choose to accept this level of risk rather than require a signature and add the 15-20 seconds that the signature requires to the time each checkout takes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by pipedwho on Tuesday January 16 2018, @12:39AM
Not in Australia. The banks take on the risk of transactions below a certain value for 'Tap and Go' (wireless use of the card). That limit is usually $100. This is to allow people to use the wireless cards for many small transactions without the slow down of entering PINs (and getting them wrong). It's amazing how fast the checkouts are at cafes and other small shops.
From a security standpoint this may not seem like a good idea, but the banks can easily flick the threshold back to zero it was losing them too much money due to electronic fraud. Since the value is limited and small transactions are piecemeal by nature, someone electronically copying wireless card identities en-masse won't create a sudden catastrophic loss that can't be dealt with by temporarily enforcing PINs on certain cards while they sort things out.
The signature requirement has always been a joke, because most people's signatures hardly like the signature on the back of the card. It's probably always been about the banks having a way to stick it to merchants that are on the receiving end of a bad transaction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @05:59AM (1 child)
Who knew Jack chick would be right, we truly do live in the fucking end times, next up payment by any method but your cell phone forbidden
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:32PM
Jack Chick didn't know about RFID chips.
But forget RFID chips.
Imagine that you could get a nice personal PDA and payment device "tattooed" to your skin. At least it looks that way. But it is on the surface and wears off after about a month. It's handier than a phone. You can't lose1 it. It may not have all your apps, but it has more than enough to be useful.
You have to pay every month to get a new one re-applied to the skin of the back of your hand. But some people can't afford these handy dandy new universal payment devices. So, they can get one for free by agreeing to also have another one applied on their forehead. The forehead one has no function other than to be a color animated advertising banner. Millennials will compete for which cool brands appear on their forehead. Heaven2 forbid they would be seen with a Microsoft ad paying for the other device applied on their hand for the daily necessities of life.
1or as most people prefer: loose it
2or the other place
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Monday January 15 2018, @04:28PM
Yeah, right. It had nothing to do with the mandates that Visa and Mastercard placed on both merchants and cardholders who might chose to not support this yet. The liability shift that went into effect, more than anything, was the catalyst that finally got things moving.