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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:39PM   Printer-friendly
from the new-1984-models dept.

Now that automobile manufacturers are almost more about software than hardware, your car company may know more about you than your spouse based on all the sensors in your car. The incentive to collect driver and passenger data is great. Every piece of data is used to increase revenue, especially if sold onward to third-parties.

Dunn may consider his everyday driving habits mundane, but auto and privacy experts suspect that big automakers like Honda see them as anything but. By monitoring his everyday movements, an automaker can vacuum up a massive amount of personal information about someone like Dunn, everything from how fast he drives and how hard he brakes to how much fuel his car uses and the entertainment he prefers. The company can determine where he shops, the weather on his street, how often he wears his seat belt, what he was doing moments before a wreck — even where he likes to eat and how much he weighs.

Though drivers may not realize it, tens of millions of American cars are being monitored like Dunn's, experts say, and the number increases with nearly every new vehicle that is leased or sold.

The result is that carmakers have turned on a powerful spigot of precious personal data, often without owners' knowledge, transforming the automobile from a machine that helps us travel to a sophisticated computer on wheels that offers even more access to our personal habits and behaviors than smartphones do.


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  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:48PM (24 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:48PM (#623578)

    I've removed the spy box from my car, so far it is not required to be there for the car to work.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:39PM (12 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:39PM (#623591) Journal

      You must have something to hide!

      Even without the spy box in your car, a mobile phone can provide location information. Location information can be correlated to identify how many mistresses someone has.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:43PM (11 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:43PM (#623593)

        That assumes you take your mobile phone to your mistresses.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:59PM (9 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:59PM (#623630) Journal

          Or that he/she brings his/hers. Or that you don't take the batteries out first.

          But why can't you just stay connected in case of emergencies without your mobile network provider, or google trying keep track of everywhere you've been?

          Oh, and Facebook realizing that two people who have no other obvious connection seem to frequently be together at the same time and place. And then Facebook lets the world know that you might know this other person. Has Facebook no idea about privacy? That people might prefer to keep their associations secret -- especially if they are colluding with foreign powers to influence the election process and perhaps even the national security of the united states?

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by Nuke on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:48PM (1 child)

            by Nuke (3162) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:48PM (#623646)

            DannyB wrote :-

            Has Facebook no idea about privacy?

            No. Have you been under a rock for the last few years?

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:15PM

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:15PM (#623660) Journal

              People would say Yes I have been under a rock, since I've never had, and never will have any FaceTwit.

              But my perspective is different as I watch all the FaceTwit users with their face glued constantly to their phones.

              written while I engage in the immensely valuable activity of posting on SN

              --
              People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
          • (Score: 4, Informative) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:40PM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:40PM (#623673)

            Has Facebook no idea about privacy? That people might prefer to keep their associations secret

            Yes, Facebook does know about privacy. They simply don't agree with it. They've publicly stated in the past that people shouldn't expect privacy. Quite simply: they don't believe in personal privacy, and if you trust your private information to them, you're a fool.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday January 17 2018, @06:49PM (4 children)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @06:49PM (#623715) Journal

            With many phones, the batteries aren't removable. But you can put it in an insulated box. Box is really the wrong term, what I mean is you can sandwich a fine metal wire screen between two pieces of cloth, shape it into a close-able pocket, and stick the phone in there. Of course, a solid metal box would be better in some ways, but less convenient. OTOH, perhaps those plastic envelopes that they transport ICs in would work. I'm not sure their lining wouldn't block radio signals.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 4, Informative) by Virindi on Wednesday January 17 2018, @11:05PM

              by Virindi (3484) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @11:05PM (#623890)

              OTOH, perhaps those plastic envelopes that they transport ICs in would work.

              I have a bunch of those so I decided to give this a try. I inserted my phone into a metalized plastic bag ("SCS Static Shielding Bag 1000", from Digikey), without changing the phone orientation or position. After insertion, I folded over the edge of the bag to ensure the opening was well closed, and sealed the zip top. Signal strength dropped from "4 bars" to "2 bars". I made a test call and it was successful.

            • (Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday January 18 2018, @11:05AM (2 children)

              by anubi (2828) on Thursday January 18 2018, @11:05AM (#624090) Journal

              How about those tins chocolates and cookies show up in?

              They are pretty little tins... and I like them to keep my stuff that I am trying to shield from an EMP in. I have a bunch of big red ones chocolates came in... just the size for putting in a file cabinet. Here's hoping that should we have a big EMP, the silicon I am using to build my arduino-compatibles and a couple of laptops ( that run on 12VDC ) will survive.

              I gotta keep my parts somewhere. So, I file all my silicon, transistors, whatever, in these. Another favorite container is metal ammo boxes. So stackable, and uniform in size, so I don't have to worry about having them collapse or fall apart on me.

              Yeh, go ahead and call me a worry-wort, considering we have an EMP, but I really didn't pay a dime for the "insurance"... I just rescued the stuff from going to the landfill. I figured it made more sense to keep this kind of stuff in a sturdy box rather than flimsy plastic drawers.

              To me, its more like carrying a spare engine belt, coolant, tools, and fuel in my van, especially if I am going into the desert.

              --
              "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
              • (Score: 2) by Virindi on Thursday January 18 2018, @05:47PM

                by Virindi (3484) on Thursday January 18 2018, @05:47PM (#624245)

                How about those tins chocolates and cookies show up in?

                They are pretty little tins... and I like them to keep my stuff that I am trying to shield from an EMP in.

                Aren't those made of sheet steel? A steel box may not provide sufficient shielding for a large EMP, you need aluminum.

              • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 18 2018, @05:48PM

                by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 18 2018, @05:48PM (#624246) Journal

                Try it. Put your phone in the box and call it. Not guaranteed as a test, but reasonably good unless it was specifically designed to fake this out.

                --
                Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 2) by el_oscuro on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:18AM

            by el_oscuro (1711) on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:18AM (#624003)

            pi-holed: *.facebook.com

            --
            SoylentNews is Bacon! [nueskes.com]
        • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:46PM

          by Nuke (3162) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:46PM (#623645)

          Don't you and your mistress turn your phones off while you are at it? Nothing is more deflating than the phone ringing in the middle of things, especially if it is your wife calling. Anyway, they don't need your location - just who calls who.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by stretch611 on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:17PM (5 children)

      by stretch611 (6199) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:17PM (#623610)

      I believe that Onstar can usually be completely disabled by pulling its fuse. (which used to be separate.)

      Even if you do not subscribe to Onstar it has the ability to spy on you and does if you do not physically disable it.

      Glad my car does not have it at all.

      --
      Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:30PM (4 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:30PM (#623614)

        OnStar is one good reason not to buy a GM car.

        There's many others, of course.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:58PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:58PM (#623628)

          With the upcoming spy^H^H^Hassistance box mandate in Europe, expect all cars to be fitted with them soon.

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:46PM (2 children)

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:46PM (#623679)

            Europe isn't going to mandate OnStar; I don't believe that for a second. OnStar is a product of American carmaker GM, though they've sold it to some others (I think one of the Japanese makes maybe). If Europe mandates anything, it'll be something created by a EU company like Bosch, not something from GM.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:18PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:18PM (#623731)

              Instead they're mandating eCall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall [wikipedia.org]

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:05AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:05AM (#623961)

              Too bad it can't be designed and built by Lucas.

    • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:32PM (1 child)

      by etherscythe (937) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:32PM (#623741) Journal

      Try THAT with your Tesla! One of the few, but very significant, criticisms I have of those products; I suspect the car's functionality is inextricably entwined with this capability, whether it is used by the manufacturer or not.

      --
      "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @01:39AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @01:39AM (#623956)

        Wired in right along with the essential operation of the EV .. is all the spy capability. How else would Tesla magically "grant" extra battery power to its users fleeing the hurricane last year? Over the air update to cars reporting from a specific zone. You can't pull the spybox or take out its fuse - the entire car stops.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:47PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @07:47PM (#623748)

      What? where is this spy box?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:12PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:12PM (#623767)

        The service manual for your car will tell you. In my case it was behind the radio, connected to the GPS and data antennas.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:51PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:51PM (#623793)

      Google has a lot of Very Bad Sites when one looks for howtos for this operation.

      Did you DIY without references? Or did you use some kind of guide? If the latter, could you share?

      Interested parties are interested!

  • (Score: 3, Touché) by jdavidb on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:54PM (7 children)

    by jdavidb (5690) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:54PM (#623581) Homepage Journal
    from the you-have-no-idea-how-old-my-truck-is-do-you dept.
    --
    ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
    • (Score: 5, Touché) by takyon on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:57PM (1 child)

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday January 17 2018, @01:57PM (#623583) Journal

      Cash for Clunkers 2.0! We gotta get this man IoT'd!

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 2) by el_oscuro on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:22AM

        by el_oscuro (1711) on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:22AM (#624006)

        Can you IOT a 1992 car? Or even pwn it with OBC2?

        --
        SoylentNews is Bacon! [nueskes.com]
    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:35PM (4 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:35PM (#623618)

      My car is a 2015 model and doesn't have this problem either. The key is to not buy a car with OnStar, or that has a built-in cellular modem to communicate with the automaker.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Justin Case on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:44PM (3 children)

        by Justin Case (4239) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:44PM (#623622) Journal

        So what about when you take your car in for service, and they spend a half hour with a Windows XP laptop connected to the "diagnostic port" of your vehicle? How many GPS coordinates do you suppose they can fetch in a half hour?

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:43PM (1 child)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:43PM (#623675)

          I don't take my car in for service. It's trivially simple to change the oil myself, in fact it's the easiest car I've ever changed oil on, thanks to the oil filter being located right next to the drain bolt and mounted with the opening pointed up so it doesn't spill all over the place when removed.

          Taking your car to a dealership for service is generally a stupid thing to do. You can get everything done cheaper at an independent mechanic, and the independent mechanics are generally older and more experienced too.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:11AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:11AM (#623962)

            Sometimes it takes another set of eyes to find that GPS tracker on your car.

        • (Score: 2) by el_oscuro on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:20AM

          by el_oscuro (1711) on Thursday January 18 2018, @04:20AM (#624005)

          And that Windows XP box gets pwned and every car that goes through there gets malware installed?

          --
          SoylentNews is Bacon! [nueskes.com]
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Rivenaleem on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:53PM (10 children)

    by Rivenaleem (3400) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @02:53PM (#623597)

    Is it common in the US for drivers to have such an unhealthy relationship with their vehicles? Or is this the reason behind such high divorce rates there? Do you not interact more often with your spouse than your car? Do you not have a broader range of interests than your driving habits? Does your car know you leave your socks on the bedroom floor? Does your car know your favourite movie/food/music (well maybe music).

    "everything from how fast he drives and how hard he brakes to how much fuel his car uses and the entertainment he prefers. The company can determine where he shops, the weather on his street, how often he wears his seat belt, what he was doing moments before a wreck — even where he likes to eat and how much he weighs."

    My spouse know ALL these things and more about me. Except the bit about the wreck, thankfully I've not been in one.

    While I like a clickbait, incendiary, headline as much as the next guy, are we not going a bit over the top on "just how much your car knows about you"?

    I'm guessing the headline "Cars with sensors know all the things you'd expect a car with sensors to know about you" wasn't interesting enough...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:40PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:40PM (#623620)

      You would make a lousy advertising exec. Don't be such a party pooper!

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by canopic jug on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:17PM (1 child)

      by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:17PM (#623637) Journal

      Well, it is alleged that the average commute is about 30 minutes [wtop.com], one direction. So that's 1 hour total round trip. No details are given there about whether parking time is included and the geographical distribution of the drivers. Obviously there are going to be more drivers in congested areas, so it may actually be much higher [cheatsheet.com].

      However, that is just the commute. On top of that there are errands, free-time activities, and shuttling the kids around from place to place. So it is quite probable that people in the US waste between 2 and 3 hours per day inside their cars. Those in an urban area might be spending up to 6 hours per day in the car. If it is assumed 8 hours for sleep, that leaves 16 which minus 6 for driving and 9 for work leaves just one hour for hygiene and social interaction, including with the spouse.

      It is unhealthy for the individual and society, on both the physical and mental levels.

      --
      Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:20PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:20PM (#623663) Journal

        Think of the productive time that can be reclaimed once self driving cars rule the rhodes.

        the average commute is about 30 minutes, one direction. So that's 1 hour total round trip.

        Frightening!

        Compared to my grueling 10 minute commute with 5 traffic lights.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:36PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:36PM (#623642)

      Does your car know you leave your socks on the bedroom floor? Does your car know your favourite movie/food/music (well maybe music).

      Yes it probably does and your finances, your sexual preferences and your medical conditions.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:27PM (2 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:27PM (#623665) Journal

        Does your car share this information with Google, Alexa, Cortana, Siri, Roku, Samsung, your hospital, doctor, insurance company, employer, and others?

        Maybe there needs to be a new industry organization: Personal Information Gathering Association.

        Or just: PIGA

        Or maybe Personal Information Sharing Service.

        Sort of like the movie GATTACA except with personal information instead of genes.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
        • (Score: 1) by ewk on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:14PM (1 child)

          by ewk (5923) on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:14PM (#624132)

          LMFTFY: With personal information AND genes.

          You do shed skin cells don't you?
          Only a matter of time before that nifty new sensor upgrade package performs some on-the-fly dna-analysis.

          --
          I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:33PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 18 2018, @02:33PM (#624139) Journal

            That sounds really paranoid. Crazy actually.

            But then came Snowden. And I realized that my most fantastical paranoid ideas were already reality and had been for a long time.

            --
            People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:52PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @04:52PM (#623649) Journal

      My car forgives me for farting, leaving my laundry in the corner, for spilling drinks on the upholstery, and much much more. And, the car simply doesn't give a damn why I'm seeing some woman - doesn't even care how old she is, or whether she's prettier than my wife. It just doesn't care about any of the things that are likely to piss the wife off. Yes, of course my care is easier to live with than the wife is. Cheaper too! Don't make me choose between the two, or I'll just give the wife to you!

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday January 17 2018, @06:00PM (1 child)

      by bzipitidoo (4388) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @06:00PM (#623686) Journal

      > Is it common in the US for drivers to have such an unhealthy relationship with their vehicles?

      Yes. In America, men love their cars more than their women. For some men, the car is an extension of their manhood, and the primary way to show off (or fake) wealth, power, and status. There was a brief fad with solid gold rims for the wheels, but the fad faded quickly after several owners were murdered for their rims.

      The whole nation is oriented around the car, just the way Ford, GM, and Chrysler wanted. The only exception is the airplane for fast, long distance travel. If you don't have a car in America, you will quickly discover how hard it is to get places. So many bridges have zero room for pedestrians, and anyway, walking is only for the lowest of the low class. Public transport is very patchy and slow.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:44PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @08:44PM (#623791)

        My car is cheaper than any woman. (And it is a semi-luxury model.)
        My car rarely complains.
        My car is dependable.
        My car is not terribly pretty, but she's got it where it counts.
        My car goes on almost every journey with me.
        But my car does not mind when go off on my own with an airplane.
        My car would never cheat on me.

        I do realize that not all cars can fit these terms. I advice people to get out of those relationships and find one they can love.

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:06PM (3 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 17 2018, @05:06PM (#623652) Journal

    My vehicle isn't really terribly old. It has Onstar, and other modern gadgetry. But, it's old enough that a lot of enthusiasts work on their own vehicles. Enthusiasts generally congregate on the internet, on forums. They discuss things like disabling those stupid daytime running lights, disabling Onstar, modifying headlights to get "all on", lifting a vehicle, lowering a vehicle, or whatever else you might desire to do with your vehicle. Camaro, Mustang, Nissan - - - - waita minute - - - - I've never seen a Mopar forum. Hmmmmmmm - has anyone dragged a Mopar mutt out of his garage, to inform him that there is an internet? Strange . . . . . no, I'm not researching this phenomenon.

    Anyway - drive older vehicles so that your warranty won't be voided when you do cool shit to your vehicle. That way, you can find and rip out every antenna the vehicle might be equipped with, even if you're not brave enough to short out pins on the computer and similar stuff. Yeah, that's one way to defeat those stupid DRL's. One short little jumper wire between two pins kills them - at least on my vehicle.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Wednesday January 17 2018, @09:48PM (2 children)

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @09:48PM (#623830) Journal

      Of course the only reason your warranty is not voided with the older vehicle is that you don't have one. If you don't mind not having one, why care about voiding it?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 2) by Virindi on Wednesday January 17 2018, @11:39PM (1 child)

        by Virindi (3484) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @11:39PM (#623906)

        When a warranty is transferable, it means you are not decreasing the resale value by voiding it.

        • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday January 18 2018, @06:58AM

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Thursday January 18 2018, @06:58AM (#624045) Journal

          Don't you already affect the resale value if you modify the car? I certainly would prefer to buy a car that has not been meddled with by some random person I don't know. That person may know their shit and made the car much better, but as far as I know, that person might also be a total moron that made a stupid mistake which makes the car break one year in the future.

          So I certainly would not pay the same for a car where the owner has done "cool shit" as I would for a car where this didn't happen.

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 2) by Lester on Thursday January 18 2018, @11:03AM

    by Lester (6231) on Thursday January 18 2018, @11:03AM (#624088) Journal

    It's not a problem of lack of information.

    Everybody knows that gmail scan mails, when you connect, what you say, what are your relations, where you connect from, and every single bit of information. In spite of knowing that, most people prefer using that free (and very good, let's be honest) email service than paying what they spend during a weekend in beer for a mail service that doesn't spy them.

    Why is it going to be different for cars, TV etc etc?

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