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posted by martyb on Wednesday January 24 2018, @05:26PM   Printer-friendly
from the musk-sells-solar-cells-by-the-solar-shore dept.

Trump administration imposes tariffs on imported solar cells and modules at 30% and certain washing machines up to 50%:

This new determination sets tariffs on imported solar cells and modules at 30 percent with a gradual decrease of that tariff over the subsequent four years. In years two, three, and four, the tariff will be imposed at 25 percent, 20 percent, and 15 percent, respectively, of the value of the import. The first 2.5 gigawatts of imported solar cells imported are exempt from the tariff (but it seems that a similar provision was not made for solar modules). Though the executive branch has broad authority to impose whatever tariff it wants after the ITC finds that an industry has been harmed by imports, this tariff decision closely matches the middle-ground recommendation made by two of the four-person ITC's commissioners. Those commissioners recommended a 30-percent tariff on modules and a 30-percent tariff on imported solar cells in excess of 1GW, with declining rates after the first year.

Whirlpool shares rise after Trump tariff on washing machine imports

The new tax is expected to hit Trump's desk on Tuesday. The administration is imposing 20% tariffs on the first 1.2 million machines imported each year, and 50% on those after that. There will also be a 50% tariff on washing machine parts.

Naturally South Korea and China are upset and plan to argue their case at the WTO. From the articles I read this morning there should be a boost to US manufacturing but the gains may all be offset by the losses with people not wanting to pay more for solar. I think regardless of price people will do solar for solar's sake, but there is sure to be some impact on sales and installation jobs.

Guess I should have bought that 30% off washing machine at the Sears going out of business sale.


Original Submission

Related Stories

U.S. Steel and Aluminum Imports to Face New Tariffs 69 comments

US steel and aluminium imports face big tariffs, Trump says

President Donald Trump has said he will sign off on steep tariffs on steel and aluminium imports next week, hitting producers like Canada and China.

Flanked by US metals executives at the White House, he said a 25% tariff would be slapped on steel products, and a 10% tariff would be imposed on aluminium.

Mr Trump tweeted that the US was suffering from "unfair trade".

The US imports four times more steel than it exports, and is reliant on steel from more than 100 nations.

Related: U.S. Quintuples Taxes on Chinese Cold-Rolled Flat Steel
China to Cut Steel and Coal Production
Trump Administration Finalizes 300% Import Tariff on Bombardier Jets From Canada
US Government Puts Tariffs on Imported Solar Cells, Solar Modules, and Washing Machines


Original Submission

Trump Administration Plans to Impose $50-60 Billion of Tariffs on Chinese Goods 77 comments

President Trump has signed a presidential memorandum directing the U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer to draw up a list of Chinese products on which tariffs could be imposed. The list will be made public in 15 days, and tariffs will take effect after a 60-day comment period:

The US plans to impose tariffs on up to $60bn (£42.5bn) in Chinese goods and limit the country's investment in the US in retaliation for years of alleged intellectual property theft.

The White House said the actions were necessary to counter unfair competition from China's state-led economy. It said years of talks had failed to produce change. China said it was ready to retaliate with "necessary measures". Beijing also said it would "fight to the end" in any trade war with the US.

US stock markets closed lower on Thursday, as investors responded to the announcement. [...] The White House said it has a list of more than 1,000 products that could be targeted by tariffs of 25%. Businesses will have the opportunity to comment before the final list goes into effect.

Reuters portrays the action as "far removed from threats that could have ignited a global trade war". Bloomberg notes that many industry trade groups and companies are opposing the tariffs.

Also at NPR and The Hill.

Related: US Government Puts Tariffs on Imported Solar Cells, Solar Modules, and Washing Machines
Major US Solar Company Blames Job Cuts On Trump's Solar Import Tariff
U.S. Steel and Aluminum Imports to Face New Tariffs


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday January 24 2018, @05:35PM (13 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday January 24 2018, @05:35PM (#627242) Homepage Journal

    I think regardless of price some people will do solar for solar's sake...

    FTFY. The majority of the American people do not have the kind of disposable income necessary to be all "la la la" about thousands of dollars.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday January 24 2018, @05:47PM (4 children)

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday January 24 2018, @05:47PM (#627248) Journal

      Whatever happened to the solar financing model where you get the panels for free or cheap and get utility savings sucked away for X years?

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by archfeld on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:01PM (1 child)

        by archfeld (4650) <treboreel@live.com> on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:01PM (#627257) Journal

        Still in place and still getting a Federal and State kickback. Thank-you very kindly. My power bill went to down to an average $38 a month. The break even point is not a short term thing but the timing worked out very well for me. I'm in a new house with leased owner maintained solar cells on the roof. My house and pool are ALMOST totally solar powered and I plan to be in this house long/terminal time. This system does NOT have a battery storage capability currently which is significantly more expensive.

        --
        For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:07PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:07PM (#627374) Journal

          Offtopic:
          Your list of NSA words should include Biological, Chemical and Weapons.

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:23PM

        by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:23PM (#627268)

        I haven't seen that in my area. But the local power company is trying something similar. You "rent" a solar panel that they install in their solar farm. They charge you for the initial install and a monthly maintenance fee and you get a credit for the solar panel output. https://lge-ku.com/solar-share/residential [lge-ku.com]

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      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by frojack on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:51PM

        by frojack (1554) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:51PM (#627286) Journal

        Some of these were state programs. And who knows the status of the federal tax write off after the last tax reform bill. Is that still available?

        The country does have stake in increasing solar, so these tax breaks for consumer installations are not totally out of line.

        Having the benefit thereof flow directly over seas always seemed sort of counter productive. I think the US probably gets beat up by the WTO, but may prevail simply on the basis that consumer solar was partially government funded, and the tariff simply offsetting the subsidy.

        The best solution for the US Long-Term would be to have a robust domestic manufacturing base in this technology that could compete with China and Korea, with a built in market. One look at google maps satellite view shows that this country has enough roof tops, homes as well as commercial, that we should be able handle almost all daytime electrical needs even without storage.

        Maybe instead of an import tax they should have restricted the government tax breaks to US manufactured solar panels. That keeps it out of WTO jurisdiction.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:40PM

      by Sulla (5173) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:40PM (#627281) Journal

      I actually thought I put "some" in there when I did the submission. I probably just thought I went back and corrected that

      --
      Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:23PM (6 children)

      by insanumingenium (4824) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:23PM (#627314) Journal

      The fact that solar leases are popular and result in a net lower electric bill speaks to the fact that they are/were cost effective. If there was room for SolarCity et al to take a margin and still provide savings before the tax, there is probably still room for people with the capital to have a net benefit from solar. What this could wipe out is the ability to provide that benefit to the masses, the leases won't be profitable, which was responsible for not only a burgeoning industry, but the ability of those without the free capital to benefit from solar. Having a 30% federal incentive, and a 30% federal tax is quite amusing, give with one hand take with the other. If this tariff could result in price competitive domestic production is not a question I think anyone has an answer to.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:25AM (5 children)

        by frojack (1554) on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:25AM (#627512) Journal

        Having a 30% federal incentive, and a 30% federal tax is quite amusing, give with one hand take with the other.

        No, its not amusing at all, it allows for a resurgence of the domestic solar panel market. (Or forces foreign manufacturers to set up a plants here in the US.)

        Coupled with the US corporate tax cut there is now a HUGE incentive for this industry to grow domestically. A foreign firm already manufacturing panels for the US market could keep their customers by simply opening a plant in the US.

        Nothing amusing about it. Its friking ingenious.

        --
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        • (Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday January 25 2018, @04:29AM (1 child)

          by frojack (1554) on Thursday January 25 2018, @04:29AM (#627547) Journal

          Then there's this part
          http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/24/us-offers-3-million-prize-to-boost-solar-manufacturing.html [foxnews.com]

          The US is apparently serious about bringing the solar industry back on shore.

          --
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          • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Thursday January 25 2018, @07:18PM

            by insanumingenium (4824) on Thursday January 25 2018, @07:18PM (#627816) Journal
            I didn't bother reading you linked article, but just the link itself is a good joke.

            Three million dollars to boost domestic manufacturing, lol. That first 2.5 GW that comes in tariff free is, at ~1$/W which isn't an uncommon price for photovoltaic panels from what I can tell, is on the order of 2,500 Million dollars.
        • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Thursday January 25 2018, @06:06PM (2 children)

          by insanumingenium (4824) on Thursday January 25 2018, @06:06PM (#627778) Journal
          To quote Heinlein "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh".

          Setting an incentive in place that is exactly as much as the tariff seems like a really silly shell game to me, but it supports bigger government and more bureaucracy I guess, so I am sure some Americans will see a benefit. Wouldn't it have been easier to only provide those incentives for American made solar products? Oh wait, that would require involving the legislature instead of using one of those excessive executive orders we hear so much about.

          We will see how it turns out, it isn't impossible that you will be right, but I wouldn't put odds on it personally, especially when the tariffs will be falling significantly before large scale domestic production is likely to be possible.

          Using tariffs to try and effect trade balances is a tale as old as time, I would hardly call it ingenious.
          • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Thursday January 25 2018, @11:22PM (1 child)

            by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Thursday January 25 2018, @11:22PM (#627945)

            But they are not the same.
            the government is taxing imports, to grow domestic manufacturing.
            But putting even more money into incentive the purchase of panels, to grow the demand.

            These are not incongruous actions, they are complimentary.

            • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday January 26 2018, @12:41AM

              by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday January 26 2018, @12:41AM (#627999) Journal

              A 30 percent tax penalty followed by a 30 percent tax credit on the exact same commodity isn't complementary, they are literally opposites. Never-mind that historically tariffs haven't been a great way of encouraging local manufacture, see the comments below about the chicken tax, and that is a tariff that wasn't going to decay away rapidly discouraging long term investment.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:12PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:12PM (#627262)

    These are more preparations for World War 3 in addition to the internet being locked down.

    That this will be good for the American working class has yet to be seen. Trickle-down theory was classic gaslighting. Without question, it will be good for the international elites in Davos this week.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @08:19AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @08:19AM (#627595)

      This is free trade, USA style.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:27PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:27PM (#627654)

      "Trickle-down theory was classic gaslighting"
      What does supply side economics have to do with trying to make someone think they are crazy?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:53PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:53PM (#627656)

        INCONCEIVABLE

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:20PM (18 children)

    by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:20PM (#627266) Journal

    Adding 20-50% to a washing machine impacts the lower incomes much more that the upper incomes. More tax scam out of the Trump administration.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:59PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:59PM (#627290)

      whether anyone agrees with what the trump admin wants to do is one thing but it's interesting to see a president who is actually interested and trying to do the things he said he was going to do. the last time someone tried that bush senior had him shot in the head.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:03PM (2 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:03PM (#627292) Journal

        I don't recall the speech or tweet where he promised to raise people's taxes.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:43PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:43PM (#627328)

          Those aren't the taxes people meant by "taxes." Public discourse exists only within the reality of the moon matrix.

          We're going to cut taxes, by which we mean a simulacrum for some idea $x which is non-real. We're going to bring back jobs, by which we mean a simulacrum for some idea $y which is non-real. That $x is really directly enriching the global elites and $y does nothing real to help the American working class is fine, because public discourse no longer exists in reality.

          If the goal were to help the American working class, the money from these tariffs would be put into social programs. While I'm not sure if this is air I'm breathing, I'm certain that this money will go into the military-industrial complex as it gears up for World War 3 instead of into social programs that might de-escalate the real reasons why we are given simulacra and simulations for why World War 3 was fought.

          I think that by non-real I may mean the same thing that some people mean when they say "feelz." Except that the idea of "feelz" is a simulation of the idea of non-reality. Kiri-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics may be helpful here.

          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:33PM

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:33PM (#627397) Journal

            This idea was expressed rather more succinctly during the reign of Chimpy McBushface as "reality-based community" versus "actor-based community."

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:06PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:06PM (#627296)

        Yet he is going to give a speech tomorrow at Davos arguing that his policies are not protectionist and that he is all for free trade! He flip-flops so many times I can't remember what he said he was going to do.

        He said (among many many things) that middle class taxes would see the biggest cuts, that you'd be able to do your taxes on a 3x5 card, that they were only going to focus deportation efforts on the "bad hombres", that the "Dreamers" had nothing to worry about and that he'd take care of them, that not only would everyone not lose health coverage, that it would be much better and cheaper, that we weren't going to be "nation building", etc., etc., etc.

        Riddle me this Batman: why is he so hell-bent on wasting billions of dollars on an ineffectual wall? He said he was going to build one, sure, but pretty much everything else he said he has not only not done, but in many cases has done the opposite.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @11:31PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @11:31PM (#627449)

          Riddle me this Batman: why is he so hell-bent on wasting billions of dollars on an ineffectual wall?

          For two reasons: he wants to put his name on it, and he wants a structure that he will claim can be seen from the moon.

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday January 25 2018, @04:15AM (1 child)

            by TheGratefulNet (659) on Thursday January 25 2018, @04:15AM (#627542)

            its for his base.

            the racists love that shit.

            that's the only people that like it. that, and the construction crew.

            yeah, total fucking waste of time and money, but we don't have a rational person in the WH, we have the worst of the worst.

            truly a 'bad hombre' is running things now.

            --
            "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
            • (Score: 2) by tonyPick on Thursday January 25 2018, @08:20AM

              by tonyPick (1237) on Thursday January 25 2018, @08:20AM (#627596) Homepage Journal

              "On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
                  H.L. Mencken, The Evening Sun, July 26, 1920.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:55PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:55PM (#627339)

        And who would that have been?

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by frojack on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:05PM (7 children)

      by frojack (1554) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:05PM (#627294) Journal

      You remember what happened in years past when these tariffs were imposed on imported automobiles?

      Yup, that's right. Toyota, Honda, et al moved their manufacturing to US plants. Not just for assembly.
      (And those domestically made "foreign" models are still eating Detroit's lunch.)
      And the workers those companies employed weren't coming from the millionaires club. Just Joe Sixpack getting a good paying job with medical benefits and a retirement account.

      http://www.geappliances.com/ge/usa/ [geappliances.com]
      https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/05/best-american-made-appliances/index.htm [consumerreports.org]

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      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:18PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:18PM (#627306)

        Those factories weren't set up in the US because of tariffs. They were set up for a range of economic reasons, primarily because of the market size of the US, the relative strength of the dollar at the time, and the incentives the "Sun Belt" states provided to the companies (particularly the non-unionized workforce). Before all of that, Detroit would whine about all the unfair advantages those other companies had and how the numbers of foreign cars needed to be limited, but once those cars were being built domestically, Detroit had no other option but to start making better cars.

        • (Score: 2) by richtopia on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:49AM (1 child)

          by richtopia (3160) on Thursday January 25 2018, @12:49AM (#627487) Homepage Journal

          I have to disagree, the Chicken Tax is one of the biggest examples of tariffs in the USA since WWII. With a 25% tariff on light trucks, foreign (and domestic) automakers have done a lot of odd things to circumvent the tax beyond manufacturing domestically. For example: Ford manufactured the Transit Connect overseas and imported it to the USA. To get around the tax, they only imported the passenger version, and ripped out the interior upon arrival.

          • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Thursday January 25 2018, @07:09PM

            by insanumingenium (4824) on Thursday January 25 2018, @07:09PM (#627813) Journal

            It is almost as if light trucks and generalized automobile production are beasts of a totally different color...

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:34PM (2 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:34PM (#627320) Journal

        You remember what happened in years past when these tariffs were imposed on imported automobiles?

        No, I don't. Probably since it never happened. [wikipedia.org]

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:51PM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:51PM (#627335)

          Maybe he's thinking of that time the US slapped a 100% tariff on Japanese-made VCRs. But that didn't cause them to move their factories here, it just caused everyone to spend double on VCRs because none were made in America.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by insanumingenium on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:53PM

          by insanumingenium (4824) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:53PM (#627364) Journal
          The link is nice, but lets save him the trouble of searching out the part he is looking for.

          American industry and labor prospered after World War II, but hard times set in after 1970. For the first time there was stiff competition from low-cost producers around the globe. Many rust belt industries faded or collapsed, especially the manufacture of steel, TV sets, shoes, toys, textiles and clothing. Toyota and Nissan threatened the giant domestic auto industry. In the late 1970s Detroit and the auto workers union combined to fight for protection. They obtained not high tariffs, but a voluntary restriction of imports from the Japanese government. Quotas were two-country diplomatic agreements that had the same protective effect as high tariffs, but did not invite retaliation from third countries. By limiting the number of Japanese automobiles that could be imported, quotas inadvertently helped Japanese companies push into larger, and more expensive market segments. The Japanese producers, limited by the number of cars they could export to America, opted to increase the value of their exports to maintain revenue growth. This action threatened the American producers' historical hold on the mid- and large-size car markets.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:17PM (#627671)

        "You remember what happened in years past when these tariffs were imposed on imported automobiles?"
        Pepperidge Farm remembers...

    • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Thursday January 25 2018, @11:25PM

      by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Thursday January 25 2018, @11:25PM (#627949)

      Sure. And Adding 20-50% to a solar panel impacts the higher incomes much more than the lower incomes.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by fyngyrz on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:56PM (16 children)

    by fyngyrz (6567) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @06:56PM (#627287) Journal

    You can put a small 12 VDC solar system in place quite inexpensively; small enough that the 30% isn't a huge hit.

    You need one (or more, but one is actually a fun start) solar panels.

    You need a charge controller.

    You need cables.

    You need a decent 12 VDC battery - a car battery will do. The charge controllers know how to deal with them.

    Then you just need to start adding 12 VDC "things" to your household, and wires, and sockets for things like light bulbs.

    I have several small systems running that are built just like that. 12 VDC LED lighting is inexpensive now, and you can get all manner of other stuff, including inverters, quite easily and without breaking the bank.

    IMHO, it's worth doing just to learn the ins and outs of the tech. You're looking at about $200 to start counting the battery (handwaving) and from there, you can add up to about three more panels and quite a few batteries if you want to expand. About every 4 panels, you typically will need another charge controller, at least, if we're talking about the inexpensive, small charge controllers.

    Here is a starter including everything but the battery [ebay.com] for about $100.00 US. Add a battery, you're probably looking at $200 to get it all running. Then small additional costs as you add 12 VDC devices. Light bulbs [amazon.com] are a fun way to start.

    And yeah, batteries: totally a fan of batteries, because one of the main functions of these things — for me — is that when the mains go out, my lights, radios, fish tanks and furnace don't.

    Solar is fun. Don't let the administration's tariff activities turn you away from it if you've been wondering what it's all about. If you can spare a couple hundred bucks, just dive right in. :)

    Also: If you're a ham or a fan of AM/SW radio, watch out for RFI. It definitely requires some more effort to keep these things RF-silent. Be prepared to invest in a nice assortment of wire-through ferrite cores.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:17PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:17PM (#627303)

      thanks for this post.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Adamsjas on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:18PM (6 children)

      by Adamsjas (4507) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:18PM (#627307)

      Great for an enthusiast with a modicum of electrical knowledge.
      Not so easy for the guy off the street. And keeping it up to code for insurance purposes as well as safety is important too.

      • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:41PM

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:41PM (#627324) Journal

        Actually it's about at the ridiculously easy level right now. LEGO-easy. And there's plenty of help online.

        The rest... varies with your location and what you're trying to do.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:45PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:45PM (#627332)

        I'm not so sure that 12 volts is covered by code. Is it? I thought you could pretty much do what you wanted with low voltage wiring.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:14PM (2 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @09:14PM (#627381) Journal

          I thought you could pretty much do what you wanted with low voltage wiring.

          While 12V is safe from electrocution, the chances of fires due to insufficiently thick wires and/or improper connection leading to shorts are higher.

          Because 12V will require higher currents - a 10W@12V led bulb replacement will suck almost 1A (vs 0.1A on a 120V main with an incorporated down voltage adapter). The 10W LED itself is mounted on a radiator, it gets quite hot; also keep in mind the LEDs are quite prone to thermal runaways [wikipedia.org].

          --
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          • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:18AM

            by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:18AM (#627496) Journal

            While 12V is safe from electrocution, the chances of fires due to insufficiently thick wires and/or improper connection leading to shorts are higher.

            Just to follow up on that a bit, these all-in-one small systems do come with the appropriate cables for panel to controller and controller to battery.

            After that, you're on your own. And sure, like any electrical system, you can do it wrong.

            Buuuut... again, there's tons of help on the Internet, and cable advice features prominently.

          • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:23AM

            by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:23AM (#627499) Journal

            Also... just like the mains... proper fusing and loading is very easy to set up. If you're running a charge controller (and if you don't, you're nuts), they usually have a properly current-limited output you can use, too. Which also provides usage monitoring and the like.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:25PM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:25PM (#627357) Journal

        And keeping it up to code for insurance purposes as well as safety is important too.

        True dat.

        Remember Ohms law? Watt-for-Watt, the lower the voltage, the higher the current must be.
        With 200W worth of solar panels @12v - which means something like this [ebay.com.au] at 1.5mx0.7m - the safe connection cables have the same thickness as one able to safely power a 2000W appliance on an 120V main (a decent-powered blender, I think. Definitely a good cooking hotplate. Almost 3HP). They'll need to be capable to carry 10A without breaking a sweat.

        If you want to know what may happen if you fail to use appropriate cabling thickness, do the following experiment:
        - take 4x1.5V new alkaline AA cells
        - put them in a 4-series battery holder
        - put on your protection goggles**
        - take a 20cm jump wire [wikipedia.org] (if my memory serves, they are 22AWG, 0.6mm in diameter) and short the 6V battery group.
        - observe how fast that plastic insulation starts to smoke and melt

        After that, think how good you'd feel towards the nature when you get to live day-and-night in close contact with it; this for the case your (still under mortgage) home burns down due to your feel-green-without-proper-care fooling around with 12V.
        Especially if you are tempted to think on the line of "Yeah, man, it's only 12V. Not like I'm gonna die electrocuted if I'm not insulating those connections to perfection".

        ---

        ** the batteries will get how too. The protection glasses are just in case the batteries lose the race with the jump wire, start to boil and explode in your eyes before the shorting wire melts down.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:22PM (6 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:22PM (#627313) Journal

      If you are going with lead-acid batteries, stay away from the car batteries - they are optimized for power density (heaps of amps for short time to start that damn'd SVU tractor) and don't take deep discharges very well.

      Search for "marine battery" or "deep cycle battery" - will maybe add you some $100 in cost over a car battery but you won't mourn the death of it after 6 months of use. Prefer large Ah capacities, you'll get to discharge them less and this has huge impact on the lifetime of the battery.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:38PM (3 children)

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:38PM (#627323) Journal

        Search for "marine battery" or "deep cycle battery" - will maybe add you some $100 in cost over a car battery but you won't mourn the death of it after 6 months of use.

        That's good advice (+Informative for you), though my vanilla-ish (~100 AH) car batteries have been in service for almost three years now... OTOH I have not ever discharged them all the way, so there's that.

        Still, to start, I'd just go with a cheap battery until you have more serious plans. But whatever floats your boat and doesn't sink your wallet.

        I have one system that is all ultracaps - that's eventually going to be the way to go, because they simply don't wear out in any practical sense but the space required at the present time is pretty horrible compared to a battery. Plus they need their own special electronics for charge / discharge. Sigh. They aren't quite there yet for most practical systems. But it was fun to build. Lots of challenges.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:32PM (2 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:32PM (#627358) Journal

          I have one system that is all ultracaps - that's eventually going to be the way to go, because they simply don't wear out in any practical sense but the space required at the present time is pretty horrible compared to a battery.

          Price-wise too.

          My latest foray into "back for your buck" in electrical energy storage (how much Wh for $1), still shows something like:
          - lead-acid (deep cycle) - best Wh/$
          - NiMH
          - LiPo
          - ultracaps - worst Wh/$
          At least when considering consumer prices.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:12AM (1 child)

            by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:12AM (#627494) Journal

            ultracaps - worst Wh/$

            Sort of. But the ultracaps probably won't need to be replaced in my lifetime. Batteries, at least with available battery tech thus far, just don't last. And batteries waste a lot of energy when charging.

            At least when considering consumer prices.

            No doubt! I bought all mine surplus off of EBay. A generation or two back tends to be very inexpensive compared to new. And the tech is still improving, so there's hope yet.

            Hey, and you can probably will your ultracaps to your kids / grandkids because they'll probably still be working when you go nipples north. Batteries suck. :)

            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday January 25 2018, @03:09AM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 25 2018, @03:09AM (#627520) Journal

              Sort of. But the ultracaps probably won't need to be replaced in my lifetime.

              That is, if everything you can account for getting outside the spec-ed range is enough and really taken care off and durable for the duration of you life.

              And batteries waste a lot of energy when charging.

              Depends on you charging current/cell.

              Hey, and you can probably will your ultracaps to your kids / grandkids because they'll probably still be working when you go nipples north. Batteries suck. :)

              Neither ultracaps are that immortal.
              Only considering that the outer layer is still plastic (most probable, LDPE) - won't degrade for centuries while protected by the tons of garbage on top inside the dump, but letting you down after some years due to temperature variation, some ion-rich air, good forbids to keep them in the Sun's light, etc.

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:42PM (1 child)

        by captain normal (2205) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:42PM (#627361)
        --
        When life isn't going right, go left.
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:51PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 24 2018, @08:51PM (#627363) Journal

          Depends on where you live - 'tis why I didn't provide a link.
          I know I'm not gonna pay S&H for a ton of lead with "fragile/dangerous goods" classification from US to Australia, I suspect won't make sense for European soylenters too.

          ---
          ** that acid, even if as a gel? certainly dangerous it the enclosure breaks.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:35PM (#627676)

      i am looking for a 12V timer: lights on at 7 pm and off again at 6 am.

      once i find this, i can stop worrying about emptying ( and breaking) the battery.
      the rest should be easy.
      watch for insulation and cable thickness, less voltage means more amps which require thicker cables.
      everything car is 12V so can be used too... including the fuses.

      another way is to go 48VDC ( 12VDC x 4 serial) and then using that on a invert to get 220-230 Volt AC ... and you're back >:D

  • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:53PM (5 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @07:53PM (#627337)

    So Trump wants us to buy shitty Mexican-made Whirlpool washers now? There's only one company in America that makes washers, and that's Whirlpool/Maytag/Frigidaire/whoever-else-they've-merged-with, and I'm pretty sure most of their production is in Mexico now. The good washers are all made in Korea or Germany now.

    • (Score: 2) by arslan on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:00PM (1 child)

      by arslan (3462) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:00PM (#627409)

      Maybe that's how he'll get the Mexicans to pay for the wall. I give you business, you fund - to some extent, the wall building... given his background, there must have been lots of backroom business deals happening. Whirlpool, in the meantime creates some local jobs (maybe not manufacturing, but sales, logistics, admin, etc) for the increase in market share and perhaps repatriate their offshore taxes. Win win for Americans.

      That's one way to look at it - whether it works is another matter, of course the other view is Trump is evil, stupid/idiotic and lining his pockets, the average Americans will be the suckers losing out.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:55AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:55AM (#627517)

        A wall built with dead Whirlpool washers manufactured in Mexico.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:20PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:20PM (#627422)

      I just wish it wasn't so difficult to find a washer that's top-loading and has an actual agitator in it. You know, the kind that actually gets the clothes clean.

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 24 2018, @11:07PM (1 child)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 24 2018, @11:07PM (#627442)

        Front loaders get clothes clean just fine. without tearing them apart the way agitators do. That's why they've been using them exclusively in Europe for decades; it's only stupid Americans who want top loaders with agitators.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:34AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @02:34AM (#627513)

          Not so sure about that...stuff I've washed in Euro machines took a long time and didn't seem all that clean, when compared to my ~25 year old Kenmore (made by Whirlpool).

          When my Kenmore water pump failed (leaking) it was a $15 part from Sears Parts. With help from a YouTube video I replaced it in half an hour.

          When the huge bearings that support the overhung drum in my mother's front loader (10 years old) failed, the service quote was so expensive we bought a new machine. These are nearly the same size as old-style automotive front wheel bearings (rear drive cars). They require a special puller to remove after the seal fails and they start to rust (and might be rusted in so well that removal damages the bore permanently). I didn't have time to turn up the puller parts on my lathe, although I did consider this option...

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:46PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 24 2018, @10:46PM (#627437)

    Manufacturing can come back, but manufacturing jobs, a la 60s-70s, CANNOT.

    Any new/returning manufacturing will be heavily automated, employing far fewer people. It will likely spur domestic robotics industries, but they will have to compete with the industrial robotics industries of Germany, Japan, and S. Korea.

    We need to rebuild our manufacturing base, but that's no solution for our employment problem.

    • (Score: 2, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday January 25 2018, @09:06AM

      by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday January 25 2018, @09:06AM (#627607) Homepage Journal

      Let me tell you, our factories are HOT right now. 🔥 Turning out a TREMENDOUS amount of stuff! More than when Obama was in office. But the jobs with HIGH PAY for NO SKILL, a lot of those are gone. Because we live in the age of Computer. The age of Robots. If we tell our companies, "don't use Computer, don't use Robots, use Workers" it's like we're telling them not to make as much money. Unless we tell our Workers, "your wages are too high, take a cut to your wages." We're not doing that yet. Not in my first term. We're bringing back the tariffs, like when America was great. So the American people will buy American stuff. We did it with the softwood lumber and it was beautiful, it was perfect. Now the washing machines and the solar.

      Believe me, solar has been killing our economy. Because it's very bad for our electric. The Sun comes up, the solar starts working. The Sun goes down, the solar stops working. You can't count on it. The coal, the nuclear, you can count on. They're always going. 3 in the morning, you have your coal. You have your nuclear. Or you have no lights. They're very reliable. But we've been losing our coal & nuclear, right & left. So many shutting down, it's very bad for our electric. I want a SUBSIDY for our coal & nuclear. Secretary Rick went to my FERC, he went to the five. And he asked for the subsidy. For any place that can store 3 months of fuel. Which they can do with coal. They can do with nuclear. And which a lot of people are saying we might need. If there's a hurricane, remember Hurricane Maria? Secretary Rick asked very nicely, but they told him "no"! Four of these guys, I hired. And one said he loved the subsidy. But they shut it down, they all voted "no." Ignoring the will of the American people, it's very sad. So we don't have the subsidy we need so badly. But we can do a TARIFF. I don't have to ask anybody about that, there's no vote for that one. Very easy, even Obama could do a tariff on the solar.

      Republicans have always been the party of American industry and the American worker. We must embrace that heritage, rebuilding this country with American goods and American labor. Not Robots. Not solar. And not washing machines from Korea. They put a very unfair SUBSIDY on their washing machines, our guys couldn't compete. Korea, for too long, has been absolutely killing our economy. But I'm working very hard on it. I work every single day to make America great again.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:23PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 25 2018, @01:23PM (#627672)

    the import tax should be waived if the buyer can proof that the imports are used to make solarpanels .. or washing machines.

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