from the Don't-Read^W-Breathe-Between-the-Lines dept.
An Anonymous Coward writes:
The German government has denounced experiments funded by German carmakers in which humans and monkeys reportedly inhaled diesel exhaust fumes.
On Thursday The New York Times reported that the EUGT research was designed to counter a 2012 decision by the World Health Organization to classify diesel exhaust as a carcinogen.
It said that in 2014, EUGT had exposed 10 monkeys to fumes - in an air-tight chamber - from several cars, including a diesel VW Beetle. The testing took place at a lab in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Then at the weekend Germany's Stuttgarter Zeitung and SWR radio reported that 19 men and six women had inhaled diesel fumes in another EUGT experiment.
During a month of tests at a lab in Aachen, west Germany, they were exposed to various concentrations of diesel fumes, which contain toxic nitrogen oxides (NOx). The BBC has not seen the study itself, but German media say it was published in 2016.
At the time the carmakers were arguing that modern technology had cut pollution from diesel engines to safe levels. But VW was later found to have fitted "cheat" devices that rigged the emissions data.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42858668
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:13PM
Praise Adolt Hilter.
(Score: 3, Touché) by crafoo on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:13PM (2 children)
Well if you would just let sales and marketing say whatever they like, they wouldn't have to asphyxiate test subjects in the pursuit of a study with the proper outcome. People, it's a simple either-or situation.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:17PM
"How dare you! Rape is an important tool in a man's toolbox, and you have the sheer audacity to complain when a man utilizes it on you! You should be thanking him for bringing out such a valuable tool for a worthless sow such as yourself! Are you asking to be raped yet again!? Get out of here, you whore!"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @10:11PM
TFS makes it sound like large numbers were randomly exposed, without their knowledge, to unknown quantities.
That's not how it's done.
I did instrument support for a pulmonary research group in the 1970s.
The medical group had contracts for studies from EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute) for oxides of sulfur (coal-fired power plants) and from General Motors for oxides of nitrogen (diesel exhaust).
Individual sheep, tagged with identifying numbers, were administered a specific (low) concentration for a few minutes and their response was carefully monitored, recorded, and analyzed.
The animals were very valuable for repeated exposures/data over time and were given excellent care.
After the animal studies were completed, human subjects were paid to be exposed to those aerosol concentrations.
Again, changes to their physiology was carefully monitored, recorded, and analyzed.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:21PM (3 children)
Either the BBC could/would not find the study, which means they lack basic competence expected of journalists, or it doesn't exist to begin with. Either way we should probably ignore this story.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:19PM
Pay walled!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:14PM
It's a variation of the Trump Derangement syndrome. Print any negative story you can find about somebody you don't like. Who the hell cares if it's true? The desired effect will be achieved regardless. That's all that matters. Well, that and ad rates. But this is the shit that draws the flies to the advertisers. So, let's just roll with it. That's how you avoid getting an ulcer.
(Score: 2) by EETech1 on Wednesday January 31 2018, @05:37AM
From what I've read, VW pressed them for publication, and even withheld payment (publishing was a prerequisite for payment) repeatedly pushing them to publish. After details of Dieselgate came out, the researchers declared it a flawed study due to a conflict of interest.
VW even sent someone to make sure the Beatle was running in defeat mode, and the researchers stated they were conned and lied to.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:25PM (3 children)
The kicker (besides the gas chamber perspective) is that the aim of the study was to prove that their new engines are healthier than their old engines.
They failed miserably.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:39PM
Yeah, it's also unfortunate that Germans have again decided to expose millions of people to poison gas.
As Mark Twain said: History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:41PM
Failure is okay. Ask Elon Musk. A failure is more data and more learning about what not to do.
So go back and try again. (if at first you don't succeed, use a shorter bungee)
Hint: next time, your air-tight chamber should be either US Congress or Parliament, and various other chambers for continuing experiments until you can prove that humans aren't harmed from engine exhaust fumes. Maybe only legislators that promote air pollution should be tested -- to confirm their own beliefs and prove to their constituents that what they believe is really true! Hey, maybe similar testing for the combustion products of "Clean Coal"! And toxic waste dumped into water supplies.
Young people won't believe you if you say you used to get Netflix by US Postal Mail.
(Score: 2) by Zinho on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:00PM
Ah, I was wondering why they didn't just refer to previous research. [wikipedia.org] <sarcasm>It makes sense that they'd need a new study if the gaswagen's engine had been modified since the original trial.</sarcasm>
Off topic: kudos to the devs for including the <sarc> tag, that'll save me a bunch of time on typing out < etc.
:)
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:56PM
Is there bleach in that exhaust, cause I've discovered that there are a few stupid parents of kids with autism that'll probably volunteer them.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @02:59PM (1 child)
Dr. Mengele called.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:43PM
I hope he didn't reverse the charges on that call!
Young people won't believe you if you say you used to get Netflix by US Postal Mail.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:06PM (6 children)
if they test with the biggest banks' executives. it's totally unrelated if they happen to be jew
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @06:53PM (5 children)
Do you imagine you're welcome here? Or you just enjoy trying to rile people up? Y'know there is a whole site designed for that
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday January 30 2018, @08:21PM (3 children)
6 millionth troll fed...
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday January 31 2018, @06:23AM (2 children)
Given that is was only the 630 384th comment on this site, I fail to see how it could have been the six millionth troll.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2018, @07:45AM
He is probably counting the jewish way...
0
271301
6000000
Done.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Thursday February 01 2018, @08:27AM
I suppose it could be that the number is exaggerated.
One fed troll is one too much though.
No more feeding trolls ever.
Never reply to comments that... oh wait
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2018, @07:38AM
Who welcomed you here?
Do you have a personally-written letter from an owner of this forum inviting you to join us and add insightful commentary on the issues of the day?
Filthy jew rat!!!
Get back into the diesel exhaust gas chamber you filthy sub-human jewish rat!
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:21PM
riots at VW affiliates in South Africa [cnn.com]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 30 2018, @03:56PM (6 children)
Interesting how they outsourced the study to an underdeveloped country full of desperately poor people instead of doing it at home. US pharma companies do drug trials in a similar fashion.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:35PM
outsourced the study to an underdeveloped country
They forgot to take that left turn in Albuquerque.
"Herr meets Hare"
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:40PM (3 children)
Funny, but they did the human study in Germany. In the US they used monkeys.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:21PM (1 child)
Oh, I must have misread that then. I thought they did the human study in New Mexico.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @06:03PM
No, that was Wash D.C.
(Score: 2) by EETech1 on Wednesday January 31 2018, @05:45AM
The human testing also used purified NOx from a gas bottle, they were not exposed to actual vehicle exhaust.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:59PM
I don't remember that the monkeys in Albuquerque were that desperately poor when I lived there.
Some of the humans were, but the monkeys were doing fairy well by world standards.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:19PM (2 children)
I just can't get past the fact that car companies were pumping the fear of global warming to help Diesel sales. From the NYT article:
Angela Merkel was the German environment minister from 1994 to 1998. I would rather take election advice from Vladimir Putin than environmental advice from a European politician.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2018, @10:39AM (1 child)
How life in Blackandwhiteville? Real life is complex.
in option A variables 1,7,34 improve but variables 2,3,16 degrade. In option B variables 6,8,33 improve but variables 4,5 degrade. Which one is better?
Then again thanks for admitting you're but a Putin troll. Back to your cave trogdolyte.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2018, @04:10PM
And you can go back to drinking the green Kool Aid, I mean breathing the Diesel fumes.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @04:23PM (6 children)
Don't come here with your bleedin' heart crying about the poor little monkeys and tar babies. If you don't like it, don't buy a German car. That's how the system works! Trust in your free markets. It's like when you're flying in the clouds. You have to trust your instruments, or you will die. It's too damn simple, people!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:12PM (4 children)
Better to just pretend there's no problem and experiment on a few hundred million people instead, right? This is a typical propaganda attack that we've seen over and over again. A business looks into a health or environmental concern of their products. The mere existence of this research is used against the business in propaganda attacks. But that's not the only angle of attack:
So they're saying the research would have been ethical, if it was sponsored by someone else.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:20PM (1 child)
Your argument might have more weight if VW hadn't deliberately cheated on emissions tests.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:44PM
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:36PM (1 child)
"Ethics" in business is lipstick on a pig. The problem is as old as the hills. People will never outgrow doing what that can get away with. It doesn't matter whether it's stealing paperclips or poisoning millions. The idea is wired in. There are no "ethics" in the boardroom. There is only the singular focus... When you think like them, you will understand them. Then you can use their own tools against them. You gotta play their game their way, or you will always lose.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:55PM
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:17PM
"Flamebait"? Why? What is wrong with the above post? When TMB says it, it goes +5 immediately. Is it all about "presentation" or "style"? That's what is seems. I relayed exactly the same message as any great capitalist does every day as part of his routine. And yet, you don't want to hear about it. You people have serious psychological problems.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by leftover on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:20PM
Particulates in diesel exhaust have been tested and known to be carcinogenic for over 30 years. Can't cite the source because it was pre-Web. Maybe someone in NHTSA could resurrect and re-publish the information. There was, of course, heavy pushback from the Oil Barons because Profit! is more important than environment and people combined.
Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 30 2018, @05:42PM (1 child)
If you haven't seen the HBO/BBC movie Conspiracy [wikipedia.org], I highly recommend watching it. The movie is based on notes from the actual Wannsee Conference, the subject of which was the implementation of the "Final Solution". The movie also delves into the psychology of various conference participants and is a good portrayal of how people manipulate each other in bureaucracies.
The Adolf Eichmann character talks about "gas van" experiments in which the exhaust was piped into the backs of trucks filled with Jews. His amused observation: "They turn pink."
Even if these experiments turn out to have caused no harm to the subjects, the optics are terrible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2018, @07:13AM
Adolf Eichmann also talked about fountains of blood springing from the ground because there had been a jew slaughter house nearby.
He also talked about getting a Russian diesel submarine engine to a farmer's shed in order to gas jews with diesel exhaust fumes.
1/3 of the Holocaust Hoax: Perjured Trial Testimony I [youtube.com]