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posted by Fnord666 on Monday February 05 2018, @11:39AM   Printer-friendly
from the give-me-network-choices dept.

Ars Technica is reporting on San Francisco's initial steps to create a citywide fiber-to-the-premise (FTTP) open-access network where ISPs compete for customers.

According to Ars Technica:

San Francisco is trying to find network providers to build a city-wide, gigabit fiber Internet service with mandated net neutrality and consumer privacy protections. It would be an open-access network, allowing multiple ISPs to offer service over the same lines and compete for customers.

The city yesterday issued a Request for Qualifications (RFQ) to find companies that are qualified "to design, build, finance, operate, and maintain a ubiquitous broadband FTTP [fiber-to-the-premises] network that permits retail service providers to lease capacity on the network." The project would also involve a free Wi-Fi service for city parks, city buildings, major thoroughfares, and visitor areas. Low-income residents would qualify for subsidies that make home Internet service more affordable.

ISPs offering service over the network would not be allowed to block or throttle lawful Internet traffic or engage in paid prioritization. ISPs would also need customers' opt-in consent "prior to collecting, using, disclosing, or permitting access to customer personal information or information about a customer's use of the network."

Could this be the first major US metropolitan area to create a real free market in broadband Internet? Do any Soylentils have similar municipal networks?


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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Aiwendil on Monday February 05 2018, @12:18PM (2 children)

    by Aiwendil (531) on Monday February 05 2018, @12:18PM (#633250) Journal

    Ehm, that isn't standard in the civilized world?

    Here (sweden, you should all know where I live by now [roughly the same shape and size as californa]) Open Access network are standard in pretty much any city and starts to become very common out on the countryside as well (we even have several competeting open access networks).

    Usually the municipal grid in denser cities are Open Access, and outside the dense areas there tend to be telco's or co-op's networks, which means you need to find out who operate in your area but after signing up for that and getting it installed you pick and chose internet/tv/telephone as you like from the numerous providers.

    Where I live there also is an coax-style private net offered via the television service (ComHem).

    And this in addition to that (foo)ADSL are offered across the country by multiple competitors as long as you have a telephone substation close enough.

    Oh yeah, and those open access networks. 100/10 is the normal thing to get, after that 100/100 and 10/10 are both common, and pretty much all of them offer 1000/1000 or higher (at extra charge).

    Welcome to sweden - we are the backwards country that is falling behind in the nordics :)
    And net neutrality is the law, even just exempting from traffic metering (on mobile, we don't have it in other things) to some sites will land you in court.
    (and being a UEER-subject datalogging that will be handed over to the police is required by the overlords, basically only Bahnhof fights it tooth and nail)

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @12:55PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @12:55PM (#633257)

      No, the norm in the United States is for the local government to hand an exclusive right-of-way contract to one or maybe two companies, and then for those companies to sit on the contract until a Federal Grant comes along to "improve access" and pays them to build their network, which they then abandon partway through because the money ran out and "there is no demand" anyway.

    • (Score: 5, Flamebait) by Immerman on Monday February 05 2018, @03:09PM

      by Immerman (3985) on Monday February 05 2018, @03:09PM (#633289)

      Maybe so, but this is about the US, not part of the civilized world.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @02:42PM (42 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @02:42PM (#633280) Homepage Journal

    Is it just me that doesn't trust SF to get a better result than the cities that sell exclusive access rights to one or two companies? I mean, if you're going to do something like this, shouldn't it be done by people who understand the capitalism/competition dynamic and why it's a Good Thing? Kudos to them for trying to mandate competition and all but I'll reserve judgment until I see how it's implemented and functions.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Nerdfest on Monday February 05 2018, @03:22PM (4 children)

      by Nerdfest (80) on Monday February 05 2018, @03:22PM (#633292)

      I think it'll work quite well, even with government running it. I wouldn't trust a bunch of private companies to handle my water delivery, and I'm getting to be pretty much at that point with internet as well. They don't have the interests of the public factored into their plans for the most part. Competition is fine as long as there are basic rules that must be respected. There hasn't been anywhere near enough competition or respect for rules lately.

      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @04:32PM (1 child)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @04:32PM (#633318) Homepage Journal

        I think it'll work quite well, even with government running it.

        You have way less faith in governmental ability to fuck up anything they touch than I do.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Nerdfest on Monday February 05 2018, @05:26PM

          by Nerdfest (80) on Monday February 05 2018, @05:26PM (#633340)

          In my experience, governments and medium-large corporations both fuck things up, in amazingly similar ways. One of them theoretically at least has my interests as one of their central reasons for existence. Corporations could achieve a theoretical advantage because of competition, but that's almost never the case in reality.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @04:49PM

        by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @04:49PM (#633321) Homepage Journal

        Who said anything about the government running the network?

        From TFA:

        The city says it will cover a portion of the costs for the multi-billion dollar project and provide or lease access to necessary city property and infrastructure. But San Francisco isn't planning to build the network itself, a step that hundreds of smaller cities and towns have taken.

        The winning bidder is "expected to assume the full performance risk," including "all risks related to design, construction, financing, operation, and maintenance" of the network, the RFQ says. As a result, the biggest challenge may be finding companies willing to meet all of San Francisco's demands.

        What's more, having implemented and managed large networks, I can tell you that while there certainly are challenges to the success of any large project, it's not all that difficult as long as you have buy-in and (here's where we need to suspect the corps, not the government) good-faith efforts to meet the agreed upon terms of the contract.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday February 05 2018, @08:31PM

        by frojack (1554) on Monday February 05 2018, @08:31PM (#633412) Journal

        I think it'll work quite well, even with government running it.

        Ohhh, someone didn't even read TFS, let alone TFA:

        (RFQ) to find companies that are qualified "to design, build, finance, operate, and maintain a ubiquitous broadband FTTP

        Government won't be running it!

        You might be thinking streets and water. BZZZZT Wrong, but thanks for playing.

        It will be more like trash pickup. Contracted to WastManagement, or some other big corporation, and once entrenched too big to change hands, and impossible to reduce costs.

        Further, things this big have a habit of getting half built, typically in the down town business core, and rich neighborhoods, and then run out of money. Those areas are left with a government subsidized network and decent service, and everyone else is left with the same old shit they had before.

        My county is doing this for new subdivisions on the QT (not making it well known). But the choice of upstreams is still quite limited, because some upstreams refuse to play along.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by fustakrakich on Monday February 05 2018, @03:41PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday February 05 2018, @03:41PM (#633298) Journal

      Those exclusive rights are the direct cause of all the issues we have with internet service. But don't sweat it. The entire budget for this will be used up defending against lawsuits from the industry, and city will still be blamed for the waste of money.

      I'll say it again, the people have a right use their representatives as they see fit. Using the government to compete gives those of us without all the capital a bit of clout in the capitalist system. Lawyers, guns, and money for everybody!

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @04:02PM (31 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @04:02PM (#633308) Journal

      There is this thing, I'll say it slowly, called reg-u-la-tor-y cap-ture, and this other thing called lob-by-ing (legalized bribery) that make the market solution a guaranteed nonstarter. Also read what Adams said about natural monopolies, PLEASE.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @04:30PM (27 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @04:30PM (#633317) Homepage Journal

        Darlin, you're not saying anything I don't already know. I'm a capitalist. Capitalists believe in competition. Anything that harms or prevents competition over the long term is not my friend.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @08:42PM (13 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @08:42PM (#633416) Journal

          So you're here and now disavowing a good 80% or 90% of your previously-expressed social policies? :) Nope, didn't think so. You wouldn't know a free market if it bit you in your foul feathery ass.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:11PM (12 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:11PM (#633438) Homepage Journal

            You're really reaching there. Social policies have little to nothing to do with policy regarding monopolies and competition.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:17PM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:17PM (#633446)

              Incorrect, you just lack the ability to go beyond 1 layer deep on any given topic.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:33PM (3 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:33PM (#633458) Homepage Journal

                You mean the ability through rhetorical gymnastics to say that something is what it is not? Yes, I lack that. Proudly.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:47PM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:47PM (#633468)

                  Redefinition, another favorite tactic of your ilk.

                  What next? I know you are but what am I?

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @10:13PM (1 child)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @10:13PM (#633483) Homepage Journal

                    I was going to go with "I'm rubber, you're glue..." but I do take requests.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:41PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:41PM (#633933)

                      I would like to see your rendition of "The TIde Pod Challenge!"

                      I will forever be in your debt if you do...

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @10:44PM (6 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @10:44PM (#633497) Journal

              On the contrary, Uzzard, your social policy is the level below these and from which these spring.

              You are suffering from (or, more accurately, making the rest of us suffer from...) a priority-inversion bug. Commerce is not our highest purpose. We, the human race, do not exist simply for monetary or mercantile reasons. When you get this inversion properly taken care of, your fiscal policy will change on its own.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @10:58PM (5 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @10:58PM (#633512) Homepage Journal

                You really can't handle it when we agree on something, can you? Totally fucks up your world view and makes your mind race to figure out how that can't possibly be right.

                Also, if you think material wealth is even close to my highest priority, you haven't listened to a word I've said the entire time you've been here. Here, I'll give you the Readers' Digest version: wealth < happiness < life < liberty.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:32AM (4 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:32AM (#633664) Journal

                  Again, you have that all out of order. "Happiness" shouldn't be in that list, because the other three things are your (perceived...) ranking of what *makes* you happy.

                  Which also, in the order you posted them, has the odd consequence that being dead and liberated (?) makes you happier than being alive and, er, not-liberated? Explain that one, please? You don't strike me as someone who puts any stock in the idea of your existence continuing after the death of your physical shell.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:52AM (3 children)

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:52AM (#633729) Homepage Journal

                    "Happiness" shouldn't be in that list, because the other three things are your (perceived...) ranking of what *makes* you happy.

                    No, they're not. Important is not the same as enjoyable.

                    As for the latter, you're not reading well or something. Google up Patrick Henry.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:35PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:35PM (#633768)

                      You're boring, same old crappy arguments, same old blindspots.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:54PM (1 child)

                        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:54PM (#633780) Homepage Journal

                        Weaksauce. Troll harder.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:26PM

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:26PM (#633921) Journal

                          I don't think AC was trolling, just stating the facts. Really, your entire worldview comes down to "Got mine, fuck you," with some, as you put it, "weaksauce" attempts to bolster it through saying you "earned" everything you have. Sure ya did, buddy. You popped out of the womb with a full time job and all.

                          God, you are tiresome and boring. Get some new arguments, will you? It's like watching a dog on a short chain running circles around the post and yapping to itself...

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:05PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:05PM (#633431)

          Holy crap, way to be clueless. Capitalists don't believe in competition, that is just lip service that is supposed to hand wave away all the problems. "Competition drives efficiency! Better for everyone!!"

          In general the theory holds, but it falls apart when humans get involved. Not to mention there are times when competition might hurt both parties, imagine two small grocery shops that compete and cause each other so much financial drain that one closes and the other takes a long time to recover or drastically increases prices to get back in the black.

          Or how about the Walmarts of the world? Is 10-20% price discounts worth losing your local economy? What about the local people who now earn poverty wages and increase the drain on welfare services?

          You are an arrogant fool, you skipped schooling and went straight to the trades, and your mild success makes you think you're the expert on everything. It is sad yet infuriating since it is people like you dragging this country to hell trying to fight commies/liberals/socialists/(lol)fascists. You can't even keep your terms straight.

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:17PM (1 child)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:17PM (#633447) Homepage Journal

            Holy crap, way to be clueless. Capitalists don't believe in competition...

            Exactly what I'd expect a product of our higher education system to parrot. People are actually coming of "institutions of learning" profoundly stupider than they went in nowadays. Do at least try and have a thought that violates your amalgamation of socialist/communist/fascist brainwashing once in a while. It'll only hurt for a moment, I promise.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:32PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:32PM (#633457)

              Projection 101 with Professor Buzzard.

              "Hey, where's the class?"

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:19AM (4 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:19AM (#633556) Journal

          I'm a capitalist. Capitalists believe in competition. Anything that harms or prevents competition over the long term is not my friend.

          Suuuree thing. Repeat it to reinforce your self-conditioning, you have a self-image to protect.

          More likely you're: "I love competition but I hate the competitors. Especially when they win. Because them winning means that I'm wrong, and this cannot be, because I'm always right"

          (large grin)

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:21AM (3 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:21AM (#633589) Homepage Journal

            Nah, failure is the best teacher. Which makes me wonder why we're letting people who know and understand fuck-all pass in our schools. Nevermind. Forgot for a moment that schools are about indoctrination rather than education nowadays.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:31AM (2 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:31AM (#633593) Journal

              Nah, failure is the best teacher.

              I might remind you of this one whenever you show signs of indoctrination instead of learning from your failures.

              (large grin)

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:03AM (1 child)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:03AM (#633623) Homepage Journal

                I don't need reminding but you're welcome to it. Why do you think I argue so much about things that matter to me? The smartest people I know either fail to provide a convincing argument to the contrary, in which case I'm further assured that I'm correct, or they succeed and I get to be correct instead of just thinking I am.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:19AM

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:19AM (#633628) Journal

                  I don't need reminding but you're welcome to it.

                  Thanks for the permission.
                  I realize didn't actually need it (could always rely on it as a consequence to freedom of speech), but being specifically offered is appreciated.

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:33AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:33AM (#633594)

          Darlin, you're not saying anything I don't already know. I'm a capitalist. Capitalists believe in competition. Anything that harms or prevents competition over the long term is not my friend.

          And this is why anything you post in that area isn't worth reading. You start with a mindset that a single philosophy is always correct and then go through contortions to make reality fit that philosophy.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:06AM (3 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:06AM (#633624) Homepage Journal

            A single philosophy based on individual liberty is always correct. Anything else is just making excuses for your own moral failures.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:12AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:12AM (#633658)

              Too bad capitalism is orthogonal to individual liberty.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:05AM (1 child)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:05AM (#633733) Homepage Journal

                See, this is why the Tide Pod Challenge doesn't bother me. Anyone stupid enough to eat one absolutely should.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:39PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:39PM (#633975)

                  Ah yes, those toddlers should be removed from the gene pool!! We should also put cartoon characters back into smoking commercials. Genius!! I mean what business does the government have restricting a businesses advertisements? Of course those sissies have to use men with guns to get their way, I can't stand this oppression anymore!

      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday February 05 2018, @09:00PM (2 children)

        by frojack (1554) on Monday February 05 2018, @09:00PM (#633427) Journal

        Also read what Adams said about natural monopolies,

        At best, a one-fiber-to-serve-all is an attempt to use a area wide non-natural government monopoly to tear down the previously granted monopolies. An attempt to turn broadband into something like roads.

        Most areas of the US have ONE Cable/Internet provider and MAYBE access to a poor distant second-best-solution. Whoever built the subdivision gains all the customers. Who ever first plumbed all the right of ways with a cable plant doesn't have to worry about competition, because nobody else can put in a cable plant without vastly greater costs. The last mile has no real competition.

        With a local municipality owned last mile the hope (or at least the story) is to introduce competition to that last mile.

        But with the city setting access fees, and rules, there will always be a price floor. And government regulation, spying and censorship, speed restrictions.

        Broadband does not need to be a natural monopoly. (Cellular broadband isn't).
        Its only historical cost expediencies that allowed terrestrial broadband to become monopolies.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @10:46PM (1 child)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @10:46PM (#633499) Journal

          I don't buy this, sorry. Literally every single other service of its kind--water, electricity, roads--is a natural monopoly. The analogies to water delivery, for example, are so readily obvious that we even have terms like "pipe" used to describe internet connectivity.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @11:07PM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:07PM (#633517) Homepage Journal

            Agreed. Unless private citizens start being allowed to dig under roads and across their neighbors' yards, there's not a viable option for the last mile to be anything except a monopoly. As such, it needs to be regulated in such a way as to produce the most competition rather than the least. It's best for the consumer, it's best for society, and it's even best for those competing.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by meustrus on Monday February 05 2018, @04:13PM (1 child)

      by meustrus (4961) on Monday February 05 2018, @04:13PM (#633309)

      The capitalism/competition dynamic you are speaking of is fundamentally undermined in any system that gives "exclusive access rights to one or two companies". The SF plan can't be worse than the common US plan these days for the government to mandate certain things and contract out the administration of those things to profit-seeking corporations not subject to any free market.

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @04:22PM

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @04:22PM (#633315) Homepage Journal

        The capitalism/competition dynamic you are speaking of is fundamentally undermined in any system that gives "exclusive access rights to one or two companies".

        Yes, I'm quite aware of this. That's why I mentioned it.

        The SF plan can't be worse...

        If anyone can manage to do worse than crony-capitalism it's a bunch of socialists.

        In theory, this should work a hell of a lot better than the crony-capitalism regulatory capture approach. But you know the old saying: In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gault.Drakkor on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:51AM (1 child)

      by Gault.Drakkor (1079) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:51AM (#633579)

      I'll bite.

      In this case there is a natural monopoly that exists. There are very high costs for the physical layer. So you won't get reasonably full competition.

      So for a functioning free market you need to isolate the natural monopoly into a heavily regulated company/utility. That physical layer company must be separate from the service and content providers to avoid conflicts of interest.

      So what San Fransisco is trying to do,(at least from what I read of the summary), is what is required for a free market to exist for internet services.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Monday February 05 2018, @04:16PM (43 children)

    by meustrus (4961) on Monday February 05 2018, @04:16PM (#633313)

    This has been tried before across the US. The typical response is that the state government gets involved and pre-empts local government from doing what its citizens want to do.

    Hopefully for SF that won't happen because California leans too socialist for it. It should help that the silicon valley companies (and Hollywood) hold a lot of sway in Sacramento and have a business interest in having cheap, good internet for themselves and their customers.

    --
    If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @04:53PM (12 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @04:53PM (#633324) Homepage Journal

      I think you have your terms confused. If they were acting like socialists, they'd be picking winners and losers in the state assembly and regulating the everlovin fuck out of them. They'd be showing a surprisingly capitalistic bent if they chose competition over regulatory capture.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @05:11PM (10 children)

        by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @05:11PM (#633333) Homepage Journal

        Okay. I take back what I said here [soylentnews.org], TMB.

        It seems it goes the same for you, not double. My apologies. ;)

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:26PM (9 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:26PM (#633452) Homepage Journal

          When ever single instance of an ideal being put into practice turns out exactly the same corrupt way, it is not unfair to declare that corruption to be part and parcel of the ideology. Yes, the same could be said for capitalism but at least in capitalism it's acknowledged as corrupt and fought back against. In pretty much every form of socialism ever tried, questioning authority is a good way to land yourself in an early grave.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:36PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:36PM (#633462)

            Educate yourself before you reply mmmkay? Socialism != Communism.

            Can you try saying that 100 times? Also, it is intellectually bankrupt to pretend that a small group of powerful educated people pulling one over on the public is either socialism or communism. Please stop replying, you just highlight the fact that you're brainwashed pretty badly by propaganda.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @10:14PM (1 child)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @10:14PM (#633484) Homepage Journal

              I most assuredly know the difference and stand by what I said.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:15AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:15AM (#633553)

                I most assuredly know the difference and stand by what I said.

                A position which marks you as an idiot.

          • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @09:51PM (5 children)

            by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:51PM (#633472) Homepage Journal

            I'll repost the link to the Wikipedia page:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism [wikipedia.org]

            on the off chance you'll decide to educate yourself in the actual fact that "socialism" isn't one thing or one set of practices.

            I am, as you are certainly aware Buzzard, if you've actually read the comments i've written to which you've responded, as well as many others, very much in favor of capitalism, competition and market-based solutions, except where they don't make sense.

            You and I may disagree where they do and don't make sense, but I'm certainly not a Marxist (not even a Groucho-style one -- those guys give me a headache).

            I brought up socialism not as "the" answer, but as an observation that many (including you at times, but certainly not always) use the term as a general pejorative, even when it has no bearing on the discussion -- such as this one.

            And so, I again suggest that you educate yourself a bit as to what "socialism" *actually* is. If you choose not to do so, it's no skin off my nose either way.

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @10:17PM (2 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @10:17PM (#633485) Homepage Journal

              I know precisely what it is. Ownership of the means of productivity by the workers. Which, in practice, is rarely any such thing. Even when it is though, bucking the party line is a good way to become prematurely dead.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @11:06PM (1 child)

                by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:06PM (#633516) Homepage Journal

                Yep. That's one way that socialist ideas have been implemented, but not the *only* way. There are many others, many of which are meldings of capitalist and socialist ideas.

                Should you wish to get a broader understanding of what's under the umbrella that encompasses "socialism," you're perfectly capable of doing so without my (or anyone else's) help.

                I suggested that you might like to do so, as it would likely give both your rhetorical vocabulary and your understanding of other (including capitalism) ideas more depth and breadth. Just sayin'.

                --
                No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @11:18PM (1 child)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:18PM (#633523) Homepage Journal

              Sorry but I have to double reply here. I can't stand by and let a slight on Groucho go. He was quite possibly the funniest man who ever lived, even if Harpo's "hold my leg" gag always makes me laugh the hardest.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @11:24PM

                by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:24PM (#633528) Homepage Journal

                Sorry but I have to double reply here. I can't stand by and let a slight on Groucho go. He was quite possibly the funniest man who ever lived, even if Harpo's "hold my leg" gag always makes me laugh the hardest.

                I respect your opinion, Buzzard. My disdain for those guys just means more for you. ;)

                --
                No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:08PM (#633434)

        I would hope that the 100th time your ignorance is pointed out for you that you'd actually do some reading and start using words properly.

        NO SCHOOL FTW AMIRITE??

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @05:07PM (29 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @05:07PM (#633330)

      You (and others) keep using that word.

      I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Socialism [wikipedia.org]:

      Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production,[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, collective or cooperative ownership, or to citizen ownership of equity.[12] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] though social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.

      Given that I am unaware of *any* "social ownership" or "democratic control" of the means of production *anywhere* in the US, I'm confused.

      It seems to me that a lot of folks around here use that term as a general pejorative. Unless you can give specific examples of this, I can only assume that you have no actual arguments and simply label anything you dislike as "socialist."

      Which is poor argumentation and adds nothing to this (or any) discussion. And that goes double for The Mighty Buzzard.

      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @05:08PM

        by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @05:08PM (#633331) Homepage Journal

        My apologies. I did not mean to post the above as AC.

        I, NotSanguine, authored the above.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @08:44PM (25 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @08:44PM (#633417) Journal

        "Socialism" is a "snarl word" to people like Uzzard.

        Did you ever read Catch 22? Remember that little bit about the one American GI who had a dog that would go almost rabid whenever the owner said "Commies!" and would make the dog do it on command? Every. Single. Brainwashed. Idiot. Who uses "socialism" the way Uzzard does *is* that dog.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @08:58PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @08:58PM (#633424)

          Rabid vulture of the 1% who thinks he already took the Red Pill, later he will learn he is colorblind and feel like quite a silly tart.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:31PM (7 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:31PM (#633455) Homepage Journal

            Afraid not. I can totally tell a PBR from a Red Stripe. Even at a distance.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:38PM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:38PM (#633463)

              Welp, there went the potential excuse. You sir are an idiot, a knave, and should probably apply for court jester.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 05 2018, @10:48PM (5 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday February 05 2018, @10:48PM (#633502) Journal

                Gods, no. He's not funny.

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @11:25PM (4 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:25PM (#633529) Homepage Journal

                  I made a lifelong feminist laugh her ass off at a poundMeToo joke yesterday. You just only ever see through a very narrow window into the hilarious awesomeness that is me.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:37AM (3 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:37AM (#633666) Journal

                    Where are all you middle-age white mediocrities getting this undeserved self-esteem from? I've never understood how people can have such an outsized estimation of their own skills or value.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:09AM (1 child)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:09AM (#633736) Homepage Journal

                      I know it'll be a foreign concept to you but I'll go ahead and tell you anyway: we earned [dictionary.com] it. Click the link after that word confuses you.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:24PM

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:24PM (#633920) Journal

                        Aaaaaaaaaaahahahaha--oh wait, you're serious. Hang on, let me laugh harder: AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA~!

                        --
                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 2) by chromas on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:33PM

                      by chromas (34) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:33PM (#633870) Journal

                      It's probably all their White Privileges—you know, the ones that allowed Whitey to get ahead of everyone else and colonize all their countries.

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @09:29PM (15 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @09:29PM (#633453) Homepage Journal

          Socialism should be a snarl word to anyone reading it. It invariably turns anything it touches into an authoritarian shithole. If you actually knew your history you wouldn't need to be told this.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:49PM (14 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:49PM (#633471)

            Ok fine, I'll take the bait.

            Pleas elaborate on this history you refer to. List more than 3 instances so we have a good baseline to refer to, a quick blurb on what they countries wanted to do and how it actually turned out. The point keeps being brought up as some master stroke to end an argument, so lets review that part and see what shakes out.

            • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @10:27PM (13 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @10:27PM (#633489) Homepage Journal

              Pick any three nations that have ever had "socialist" in their name or even talked about socialism as if it were a good thing. Or any three workers' unions. I'm too lazy to educate you today but it's your baby so you should have plenty of examples to hand.

              Socialism, by its very nature, is tyrannical. Even "properly practiced" it can be seen as nothing but the tyranny of the majority. There has never been and will never be an instance of socialism that was not oppressive by design. Socialists cannot deal with the idea that "He has more than me because he has earned it". In their little minds "I need it more than him" gives them some form of entitlement to things they neither created nor earned. They are thieves who have rationalized their theft, nothing else.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Monday February 05 2018, @11:21PM (11 children)

                by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:21PM (#633525) Homepage Journal

                Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands and every other country with some form of single-payer health care [wikipedia.org].

                I'm sure I left out a bunch, like Germany [cjr.org], France and others.

                Yes, I know. Western Europe [statisticstimes.com] is a third-world shithole, with each one of the above countries having failing economies on the verge of collapse, right?

                You're attempting (poorly) to put Socialism in a tiny box that serves your preconceptions. Socialism (and capitalism, for that matter) takes many forms, and the most successful societies (including the US) have elements of capitalism and socialism.

                --
                No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @11:31PM (9 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:31PM (#633532) Homepage Journal

                  You're misusing the word now to support a failed point. Socialism has a fixed and very definite meaning. Come up with a new word if you're wanting to support a word, because socialism does not encompass anything and everything that has ever been described as "social".

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by RedBear on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:09AM (5 children)

                    by RedBear (1734) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:09AM (#633604)

                    You're misusing the word now to support a failed point. Socialism has a fixed and very definite meaning. Come up with a new word if you're wanting to support a word, because socialism does not encompass anything and everything that has ever been described as "social".

                    I figured out why you're constantly arguing in endless circles with everyone. It's because you can't acknowledge that dictionary concepts like socialism, capitalism, communism and free markets don't actually exist in the real world. They're just ideas, or ideals. What exists in the real world are only imperfect, human implementations of these abstract, "perfectly" defined ideas. There are no "free markets" in the real world, there are only loose approximations full of holes that interfere with the theoretical functions of the perfect textbook free market. Here in the US, we aren't capitalists, we're capitalistIC. We aren't socialists, but we have socialistIC programs in place. We also have people who attempt to at least partially follow communistIC precepts, but we aren't communists. All in the same country, at the same time.

                    When people disagree with your view of the evils of socialism, they aren't "misusing" the word, they're just disagreeing with your assertion that the real world implementations of these abstract, tightly defined ideas are as simple as you believe. Real world implementations of these ideas inhabit a wide spectrum, many of which only loosely follow the textbook definitions. That's not misusing words, it's just reality, and reality is messy. But all you seem to care about are the textbook, black and white definitions. And so the argument never ends, and no progress is ever made in seeing another viewpoint. There is no room in your mind for the idea that an imperfect implementation of socialism might not be evil, or that an imperfect implementation of capitalism might not be good.

                    You could virtually be replaced by a bot that just endlessly repeats, "Nuh-uh! You're wrong and I'm right."

                    --
                    ¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
                    ... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ
                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:10AM (3 children)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:10AM (#633626) Homepage Journal

                      No, I'm simply being pedantic about definitions at the moment. Get with the program.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:37PM (2 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:37PM (#633770)

                        Pathetic

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:58PM (1 child)

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @12:58PM (#633785) Homepage Journal

                          You know, it's a sad thing when the quality of your trolling does not measure up to that of Ethanol-Fueled on a bad day. You should practice more over on Twitter then come back and try again.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:01PM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:01PM (#633893)

                            Since you're all pedantic about definitions try looking up "internet troll". EF and others are trolls, simply describing your performance is not.

                    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:35PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:35PM (#634147)

                      ...and some just use the words without ever actually implementing the ideas.
                      "Communist" is high on that list.
                      (Without a really tight feedback loop between The Workers and the folks making the ultimate decisions, you have a poor implementation of what Marx described.)

                      "Socialist" gets misused a whole lot too.

                      Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production by The Workers.
                      The fundamental unit of Socialism is the worker-owned cooperative--or perhaps even the worker-owner.
                      If you don't have Democracy in the workplace, you have something--but it isn't Socialism.

                      Wikipedia's page makes the classic mistake of painting with too broad a brush.
                      Taxing and redistributing is NOT a key feature of Socialism.
                      That's Liberal Democracy AKA Social Democracy AKA Christian Democracy.

                      From the Russian Revolution of October 1917[1] to 1921, [google.com] USSR had a pretty good implementation of Socialism.[2] [google.com]

                      ...and of course, after Lenin died in 1924 and Stalin took over, what USSR had was a dictatorship.
                      That's what "communist" North Korea has too.

                      [1] ...by the old calendar. Adding 11 days to get the new calendar puts it in November.

                      [2] soviet==council (workers council; town council; etc.)

                      .
                      Chavista Venezuela has about 1400 "communes" now.
                      Those have commandeered farmland|factories that are idle and have put them into production.
                      (Capitalists being able to own more real estate than they are willing|able to use rubs us Socialists the wrong way.)

                      So, while Venezuela is best described as Bolivarian (Anti-Imperialist), they have a nice little start on Socialism there.
                      N.B. Since Chavez died, Maduro isn't doing as good a job at advocating/bolstering that.

                      .
                      ...and the number of people who use "Capitalist" incorrectly is legion.
                      If your system has profit or markets or growth or ownership of stuff, it isn't necessarily Capitalist.
                      The (Socialist) Mondragon cooperative (now in 40 countries on 5 continents) has all of those.

                      Now, if you have workers who have no say in how things are being done where they work and no say in what will be done with the profits, THAT sounds like Capitalism.

                      ...and especially, Capitalism and Democracy are NOT synonymous--or even necessarily related.
                      Capitalism can and does exist under extremely repressive political regimes.
                      Capitalism is completely agnostic WRT governmental forms.
                      (Socialism is DEMOCRACY EVERYWHERE.)

                      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                  • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:57AM (2 children)

                    by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:57AM (#633620) Homepage Journal

                    I agree with RedBear's analysis [soylentnews.org].

                    Only in textbooks are things as black and white as you're making them out to be.

                    --
                    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:12AM (1 child)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:12AM (#633627) Homepage Journal

                      See above. Pick whatever word you like for "social" things that fall outside the definition of socialism but don't use "socialism". It's already taken.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:18PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:18PM (#633953)

                        You have the most fragile ego. If you weren't such a dick all the time I'd feel sorry for you.

                • (Score: 3, Funny) by turgid on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:21AM

                  by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:21AM (#633742) Journal

                  But everyone's favourite alt-wrong stupid signaller, Nigel Farage, says that all those countries are part of a Liberal Metropolitan Fascist Elite and on the verge of collapse along with the EUSSR.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:17AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:17AM (#633605)

                Figures, go suck an egg. It is your deal not mine, and obviously your subconscious knows you have no ground to stand on.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:27AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:27AM (#633591)

        I am unaware of *any* "social ownership" or "democratic control" of the means of production *anywhere* in the US

        Here's one, typical of the lot: New Era Windows, LLC [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [libcom.org]

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @04:53PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @04:53PM (#633325)

    This is being tried in Utah, covering several cities in the Utah Valley region; they call it UTOPIA. [wikipedia.org] Gives good service, decent competition among the various ISPs that are available. The big hurdle has been paying for the construction costs, as setting it up costs $2,750/house. With 160,000 residences and businesses in the covered region, that comes out to $440 million. This doesn't count the numerous legal challenges they've had to stave off from established cable providers who miss their physical monopoly on the home wiring.

    Another Utah city decided to go independent and created their own fiber network, iProvo. Construction costs got away from them, too, and they sold the whole network (and its $30 million in construction debt) to Google for $1 in 2013. [ibtimes.com]

    In general, I'm in favor of municipal broadband as a utility, and I hope the SF folks are looking at previous projects' stumbles so they know what to expect.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @06:32PM (2 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 05 2018, @06:32PM (#633370)

      This doesn't count the numerous legal challenges they've had to stave off from established cable providers who miss their physical monopoly on the home wiring.

      This should be easy to pay for: just enact some punitive taxes on those cable providers to force them to pay back those legal costs. If they try to raise rates, enact more laws to prevent this. If they pull out of the area, pass laws to seize their property and rights-of-way. While they're at it, they can get their cops to hassle company employees and give them tickets, impound their vehicles, etc.

      I really don't see why local governments aren't able to force companies like this to do their bidding more.

      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday February 05 2018, @08:41PM (1 child)

        by frojack (1554) on Monday February 05 2018, @08:41PM (#633415) Journal

        I really don't see why local governments aren't able to force companies like this to do their bidding more.

        You forgot what country you live in.
        We finally got around to abolishing slavery some time ago. How is it you missed that fact.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @09:22PM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 05 2018, @09:22PM (#633449)

          That has nothing to do with the power of local governments to enact laws affecting their territory. They absolutely do have that power. They can't easily discriminate, but if they pass a law that equally affects all cable companies, for instance (regardless of the fact that there's only one operating there at the time), they should be able to do that. The cableco could sue in state court and try to claim the local law is arbitrary and capricious, but it really shouldn't be that hard to avoid that. A big tax on cable should be fully legal; local governments levy large taxes all the time--just look at the enormous taxes many cities enact on hotel rooms. The main problem with this kind of thing is pissing off the local voters, but if the local voters are in on it (because they want to stick it to the cableco, so they can use the money to build their own municipal network, no different than cities sticking it to hotelliers so they can benefit the local economy or build a sports stadium), the local government won't be voted out.

  • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @07:00PM (4 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 05 2018, @07:00PM (#633384)

    Maybe SanFran should instead work on getting more reasonably-priced housing...

    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday February 05 2018, @07:21PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Monday February 05 2018, @07:21PM (#633392)

      Better networks will help with the deployment of the upcoming Unicorn "Uber for sleeping under porches, bridges and in nooks and sewers" ?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:00PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @09:00PM (#633426)

      Nice snarky comment, however the political reality is way more complicated. There are a LOT of very rich people in SF who do not want any more housing. There are a LOT of renters who want more housing. New development is insanely expensive, so even then housing prices will be exorbitant but it might be a 5-20 year fix if they start building now.

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 05 2018, @09:25PM (1 child)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 05 2018, @09:25PM (#633451)

        The problem with your analysis is that those renters, who you claim are "a LOT", should logically outnumber the very rich people who don't want any more housing (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am). So assuming the renters outnumber the rich bastards, they should be able to elect local government officials who will approve more construction projects. If they start building right now, at a massive scale, it should only be 2-3 years to see a huge difference due to increased supply; just look at how fast China can build a ghost city. This seems to be entirely a failure of local government, and of the majority of the voters to vote in their own interests.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @10:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @10:12PM (#633481)

          Yet, in the real world, owners nearly always have vastly more political power than renters. They have more money, so they can support campaigns better. And housing is a complicated issue, so politicians can appeal to renters without actually promising any policies that will actually result in more housing. Other complications include renters being less likely to be citizens (cities tend to have a lot of immigrants), and many of the interested parties living outside the city because they can't afford to even rent inside the city. And the ever-present problem in American politics of the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” voting for policies good for rich people, dreaming they'll someday be rich enough to benefit.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @08:13PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 05 2018, @08:13PM (#633407)

    And ponies. No, unicorns! And free (organic) beer. And and and and...

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 05 2018, @11:32PM

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 05 2018, @11:32PM (#633535) Homepage Journal

      Let me know how the unicorns thing turns out. The Roomie's little girl would kill me if they started giving them out and I didn't get her one. Yes, even if it turns out to be a goat with only one horn.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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