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posted by janrinok on Friday March 09 2018, @03:09AM   Printer-friendly

Police Say Nerve Agent Was Used in Attempt to Kill Sergei Skripal

Police say that they have identified a specific nerve agent as being used in an attempt to kill a Russian who once spied for the UK. They have not named the nerve agent that was used. Officers who responded to the scene have also been hospitalized:

A nerve agent was used to try to murder a former Russian spy and his daughter, police have said. Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found unconscious in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon and remain critically ill. A police officer who was the first to attend the scene is now in a serious condition in hospital, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

[...] Mr Rowley, head of Counter Terrorism Policing, said government scientists had identified the agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage. "This is being treated as a major incident involving attempted murder, by administration of a nerve agent," he said. "Having established that a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms... I can also confirm that we believe that the two people who became unwell were targeted specifically."

[...] Two other police officers who attended the scene were treated in hospital for minor symptoms, before they were given the all clear. It is understood their symptoms included itchy eyes and wheezing.

After 15th Alleged Russian Hit in the UK, Counter Terrorism Command takes over Investigation

Mr Skripal, 66, who was imprisoned in Russia for working for British intelligence and later came to the UK as part of a spy swap, is currently in critical condition, along with his 33-year-old daughter who was also taken ill. Authorities say they are trying to determine if he was poisoned.

Russia has denied any involvement, but the case has put renewed scrutiny on a string of deaths in the UK in the past two decades. The chair of the home affairs select committee, Yvette Cooper MP, wrote to Home Secretary Amber Rudd on Tuesday calling for a review of 14 other cases.

... British police say they have found no evidence of Russian involvement in any of the cases barring Litvinenko's.

"British police are under no sort of political pressure whatsoever," Tony Brenton, the British ambassador to Moscow at the time of Litvinenko's death, told the BBC. "If they had found evidence of Russian involvement in those cases, we would have followed it up."

But the UK government has faced criticism over a perceived lack of action. In the wake of Litvinenko's death, the UK tried and failed to extradite two Russian agents alleged to have carried out the hit. Instead, several Russian diplomats were expelled, provoking a tit for tat response from Russia.
...
In Salisbury, counter-terror police have taken over the investigation. The park bench where Mr Skripal collapsed has been cordoned off and a restaurant where he ate lunch has been temporarily closed.

At BBC World.

Previously: Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England


Original Submission #1Original Submission #2

Related Stories

Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England 27 comments

A retired Russian military intelligence officer has fallen ill in England after exposure to an unknown substance. Does that sound familiar?

A man identified by local news reports as a retired Russian military intelligence officer who once spied for Britain is critically ill at a British hospital, and the authorities were investigating his "exposure to an unknown substance."

According to several reports, the man, found unconscious on a bench in the city of Salisbury, is Sergei V. Skripal, 66. He was once jailed by Moscow, then settled in Britain after an exchange of spies between the United States and Russia in 2010.

The British police have not publicly identified the man in the hospital or a 33-year-old woman who fell sick with him at a shopping mall called the Maltings.

The authorities have, however, released enough detail about what they called a "major incident" to draw some comparisons, however premature, to the case of Alexander V. Litvinenko, a former Russian spy who was poisoned in London in 2006.

Also at BBC and Reuters.


Original Submission

Breaking News: UK Gives Russia Until Midnight to Explain Use of Novichok Nerve Agent 103 comments

The UK says that a Soviet-developed Novichok nerve agent was used against Sergei Skripal, his daughter, and bystanders, and has given Russia "until midnight tonight" to explain how it came to be used:

British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Tuesday that Russia has "until midnight tonight" to explain how a lethal Novichok nerve agent that was developed in Russia came to be used on U.K. soil. Johnson said Britain is preparing to take "commensurate but robust" action.

Reiterating British Prime Minister Theresa May's statement that it was "highly likely" Russia was to blame for the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, Johnson said, "the use of this nerve agent would represent the first use of nerve agents on the continent of Europe since the Second World War."

Meanwhile, police are probing the death of a Russian exile living in London:

Nikolai Glushkov, a Russian exile who was a close friend of a noted critic of President Vladimir Putin, has died from an "unexplained" cause in London, police say. The Metropolitan Police says that its counter-terrorism unit is handling the case "because of associations that the man is believed to have had."

Glushkov, 68, was a close friend of former Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky, a prominent critic of the Kremlin who was found dead in 2013. At the time, an inquiry found he had hanged himself — but Glushkov publicly disputed the idea that his friend and former business ally would have killed himself.

As British media began reporting Glushkov's death, the police issued a statement saying, "An investigation is underway following the death of a man in his 60s in Kingston borough."

Previously: Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England
Use of Nerve Agent Confirmed in Skripal Assassination Attempt


Original Submission

British Woman Dies From Apparent Exposure to Novichok Nerve Agent 64 comments

A woman who lived a short distance from where Sergei and Yulia Skripal were poisoned with the Novichok nerve agent has died. Prime Minister Theresa May is "appalled and shocked" by the death:

Police have launched a murder inquiry after a woman exposed to nerve agent Novichok in Wiltshire died. Dawn Sturgess, 44, died in hospital on Sunday evening after falling critically ill on 30 June. Charlie Rowley, 45, who was also exposed to the nerve agent in Amesbury, remains critically ill in hospital.

[...] Officers are still trying to work out how Ms Sturgess and Mr Rowley were exposed to the nerve agent although tests have confirmed they touched a contaminated item with their hands.

[...] Mrs May sent her "thoughts and condolences" and said officials are "working urgently to establish the facts". She said: "The government is committed to providing full support to the local community as it deals with this tragedy." British diplomat Julian King, the European Commissioner responsible for the EU's security union, said: "Those behind this are murderers."

[...] The working hypothesis is that the pair became contaminated after touching a poison container left over from the March attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal. The death of Dawn Sturgess, a British citizen on British soil, now changes the investigation to a murder inquiry, with all the diplomatic and security ramifications that carries. Britain has been blaming Moscow for the original attack in March, saying there is no plausible alternative to the Kremlin having ordered the assassination attempt. Russia has denied any involvement, suggesting instead this was the action of a weak British government looking to undermine the success of the current World Cup being hosted by Russia.

Here's something from the other side.

Previously: Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England
Use of Nerve Agent Confirmed in Skripal Assassination Attempt
UK Gives Russia Until Midnight to Explain Use of Novichok Nerve Agent


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:18AM (33 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:18AM (#649830)

    Nerve agents including Sarin and VX are manufactured by the British Government in Porton Down, just 8 miles from where Sergei Skripal was attacked.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-elephant-in-the-room/ [craigmurray.org.uk]

    Skripal is no Litvinenko

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/skripal-no-litvinenko/ [craigmurray.org.uk]

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday March 09 2018, @03:39AM (13 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday March 09 2018, @03:39AM (#649839) Homepage

      That is true, Litvinenko was murdered through radioactive isotopes.

      The signature of using nerve agents invokes North Korea but the murder of foreign spies with respect to Russia was taking advantage of all this. Now, if you compare these British murders with any taking place in North America, we have a lot of unanswered questions with the FBI and their fall-guy regarding Anthrax during the original 9/11.

      The deep state are stepping up their game. From Anthrax, to Fentanyl, to mysterious disappearances of CDC personnel. Those who fight against libertarians are out to kill them and bury the truth. Whether or not it's you in Oregon who knows the whole truth, or you in Toledo who stumbled upon it accidentally. The deep state are out to kill. Will you survive?

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:01AM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:01AM (#649849)

        You are one paranoid son of a bitch.

        Get some help.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday March 09 2018, @04:05AM (5 children)

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday March 09 2018, @04:05AM (#649852) Homepage

          Suck me off, bitch. The United States of America will never fall!

          • (Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:37AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:37AM (#649857)

            The sanctity of the US was never under discussion.

            You're obviously seriously mentally disturbed.

            I intend to refer your comments to the US authorities, who may find your behavior interesting enough to warrant further investigation.

            • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday March 09 2018, @05:08AM

              by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday March 09 2018, @05:08AM (#649860) Homepage

              Tell them to suck me off.

              The United States of America will never falll!

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:46AM (2 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:46AM (#650357) Journal

              You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you? EF's comments are right here, on Soylent, in a nice digital format, which is easy to store, easy to transport, and easy to intercept. The NSA already has all of our comments. EF's comments have probably triggered some filter or another many times. For you to "refer" his comments to the authorities amounts to nothing more than a waste of time. The authorities already know all about each and every one of us. Including all of you AC's.

              What - you're still so gullible as to believe that the NSA doesn't know which AC is which?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 10 2018, @05:05AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 10 2018, @05:05AM (#650398)

                You should be more careful who you insult.

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:54PM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:54PM (#650516) Journal

                  You're right. I should only insult people who are man (or woman) enough to do something about an insult. The random anonymous pussy on the interwebs isn't worthy of a good insult. Thanks for the reminder, and have a shitty day now.

      • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday March 09 2018, @06:19AM (5 children)

        by Whoever (4524) on Friday March 09 2018, @06:19AM (#649873) Journal

        You think that Libertarians work at the CDC? Surely the CDC is the opposite of what Libertarians stand for.

        • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday March 09 2018, @05:22PM (4 children)

          by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday March 09 2018, @05:22PM (#650082) Journal

          Studying, treating, and helping prevent the spread of diseases is against liberty? If you think the only or even primary thing the CDC does is manage quarantines you are quite mistaken. Even in that case a proper quarantine is a canonical example of a just restriction of individual liberties, I would hope people who respect liberties are exactly who is managing it.

          • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday March 09 2018, @08:20PM (1 child)

            by Whoever (4524) on Friday March 09 2018, @08:20PM (#650206) Journal

            Studying, treating, and helping prevent the spread of diseases is against liberty?

            You misunderstand. Probably deliberately.

            It's not the action that is anti-Libertarian: it's who pays for it. Government paying for the study and treatment of disease is not part of Libertarian ethos.

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Saturday March 10 2018, @01:59AM (1 child)

            by dry (223) on Saturday March 10 2018, @01:59AM (#650335) Journal

            A true Libertarian would be in favour of diseases having the liberty to spread.

            Better add something to avoid Poe's law like /s

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @04:31AM (15 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @04:31AM (#649856) Journal

      Nerve agents including Sarin and VX are manufactured by the British Government in Porton Down, just 8 miles from where Sergei Skripal was attacked.

      Transporting nerve agent from anywhere on the planet is no harder than getting it out of a secure UK facility.

      This is just a classic case of whataboutism without even bothering to support the claim with evidence. The problem with this narrative is that Russia has killed Russian defectors before. Meanwhile UK hasn't.

      The second link is completely without support. Sergei Skripal is portrayed as a "traitor who sold the identities of Russian agents abroad to the UK, in exchange for hard cash". So what? It's all justified by:

      But I moved long ago past a world view where my country are the “goodies” and Russians are the “baddies”, and instead I reached an understanding that those in power oppress the people, universally.

      In other words, everyone is bad so it doesn't really matter who does what.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @05:58AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @05:58AM (#649867)

        I feel strangely dirty for modding up a foe, but for once the commentary is worthy.

        • (Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Friday March 09 2018, @05:48PM

          by Osamabobama (5842) on Friday March 09 2018, @05:48PM (#650120)

          ...modding up a foe...

          I don't see Anonymous Coward on the list below...

          CRCulver (4390)
          danaris (3853)
          Gravis (4596)
          hoochiecoochieman (4158)
          https (5248)
          Nollij (4559)
          rts008 (3001)
          wantkitteh (3362)
          Whoever (4524)

          --
          Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday March 09 2018, @07:02PM

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday March 09 2018, @07:02PM (#650163) Journal

          Don't. It's in humanity's best interest to give these folks that dopamine hit when they say stuff that's actually true.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:50AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 10 2018, @02:50AM (#650358) Journal

          I feel strangely dirty

          Well, yes, you are strange . . .

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Pav on Friday March 09 2018, @01:52PM (8 children)

        by Pav (114) on Friday March 09 2018, @01:52PM (#649949)

        Whataboutism? So you're suggesting people should evaluate a narrative in isolation ignoring context? Basically "shut up and swallow the blue pill". Yes, Putin and his hangers on should be suspect, but I also suspect any of the US three letter agencies - gotta love that sweet Russia Russia narrative.

        Frankly ANY happening that is too convenent should be suspect in this day and age. Perhaps the UK secret services are squeemish about attempting such a thing, but their US counterparts certainly aren't. There are too many known false flags to pick from, and plenty of verified lies to the public. There were even suspect chemical attacks in Syria quite recently, supposedly by Assad, with videos appearing before the actual attack etc... and, WHY would Assad use such weapons when he was actually winning the war? It never made sense. Additonally it's interesting that the US has given up on looking for a legitimate excuse to enter the theatre, and have just gone ahead regardless by setting up bases in northern Syria. This has displeased previous US ally Turkey which has gone as far as to threaten to attack these bases. Turkish media has even published detailed maps of these bases with the fondest hope that someone else will attack them first.

        What is it I hear you say? The US wouldn't do something this drastic (ie. a nerve agent attack) on such a good allies turf? Just browse the old declassified stuff - they were planning on a false flag goddamned terrorist campaign on **US soil** just so they could attribute it to Castro. I'm sure they don't value British citizens too differently.

        Note : I'm not saying I have strong suspicions one way or the other. My point is I suspect Putin. I suspect the CIA. I'm sure there are half a dozen other groups and agencies I'm not knowledgable enough to suspect also.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @02:21PM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @02:21PM (#649956) Journal

          So you're suggesting people should evaluate a narrative in isolation ignoring context?

          The exact opposite actually. As part of that context you are ignoring, the UK and US traded a number of spies caught in the US for him (and several other spies). So they went through considerable effort to free him in the first place.

          Frankly ANY happening that is too convenent should be suspect in this day and age.

          Then they're going to stage his attempted murder for what? What is so "convenient" about it?

          Let us recall as part of that context you are ignoring, that Russia does have a history of assassination and that other members of his family have died [bbc.com] in the past few years.

          What is it I hear you say? The US wouldn't do something this drastic (ie. a nerve agent attack) on such a good allies turf? Just browse the old declassified stuff - they were planning on a false flag goddamned terrorist campaign on **US soil** just so they could attribute it to Castro. I'm sure they don't value British citizens too differently.

          So bottom line is that didn't happen [wikipedia.org] and it was in 1962 which is a long time ago without such false flag operations from then to now.

          Evidence is the only context I'm interested in and you don't have that. Get that or GTFO.

          • (Score: 2) by Pav on Friday March 09 2018, @02:40PM (1 child)

            by Pav (114) on Friday March 09 2018, @02:40PM (#649969)

            A long time ago, yes... often a prerequisite for declassification. Kennedy personally rejected the plan. I wonder why the US doesn't have leaders like him anymore?

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @03:05PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @03:05PM (#649989) Journal

              I wonder why the US doesn't have leaders like him anymore?

              First, there aren't many leaders who could survive the gantlet that it would take to get to the US presidency. Second, Kennedy died before the ugly parts could get out.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday March 09 2018, @03:37PM (1 child)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday March 09 2018, @03:37PM (#650021) Homepage
            > they went through considerable effort to free him

            Exactly, so they've now paid for him, and can do with him what they want. If that includes being renta-victim, so be it. Successful false flag operations can be valuable, it's just a trade, that's all. What else would they do with him.

            I'm not saying it is a false flag operation, just that you can't dismiss that idea as quickly as you seem wont to do.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @04:01PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @04:01PM (#650038) Journal

              Exactly, so they've now paid for him, and can do with him what they want.

              Doesn't work that way. Even merely being sloppy with his security will have negative effects on the recruitment of would-be spies and defectors. If it is seen that the US or UK deliberately tried to kill someone under their protection, the blowback would be immense, including loss of a significant portion of the current spy network.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @03:26PM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @03:26PM (#650013) Journal

          Just browse the old declassified stuff - they were planning on a false flag goddamned terrorist campaign on **US soil** just so they could attribute it to Castro.

          As an aside, look into the murder of Adolph Dubs [wikipedia.org]. Dubs was the ambassador to Afghanistan during the Soviet takeover of Afghanistan in 1979. He was kidnapped and then died at some point prior to a big shootout with Afghan police acting in conjunction with Soviet officers. For example [archive.org]:

          US relations with successive communist regimes in Af- ghanistan had been volatile since the April 1978 communist coup, the “Saur Revolution.” The accessible KGB record remains garbled on a key event in the downward spiral of the US-Afghan relationship prior to the Soviet invasion of 1979: the still-mysterious February 1979 abduction and subsequent killing of US Ambassador Adolph Dubs. The materials, provided to CWIHP by defected KGB archivist Vasiliy Mitrokhin (published as “The KGB in Afghanistan,” CWIHP Working Paper No. 40 , available at http://cwihp.si.edu [si.edu] [here [wilsoncenter.org] is the link to the actual PDF]), suggest that the Amin regime, against the advice of the US embassy in Kabul, had authorized the storming of the hotel where the ambassador was held by three terrorists associated with a radical Islamic group. It remains unclear why the KGB recommended the execution of the only terrorist who survived the hotel storming of the hotel before US embassy personnel could interrogate him. Dubs had in fact advocated a wait- and-see policy toward Kabul and had favored the resumption of Afghan officer training in the United States, which had been suspended after the communist takeover in 1978, eager as other State Department officials to avoid forcing Kabul to rely solely on the USSR.

          From "The KGB in Afghanistan":

          The mystery around [the events concerning] Dubs’ death has not yet been solved. This is what [we know] happened. On 14 Fe bruary 1979 some unknown people seized Dubs on the street and took him to the Hotel Kabul. The terrorists demanded that Bahruddin Bals and Faizani of the Setame Melli group should be released in return fo r the release of the ambassador (both Bals and Faizani had been s hot immediately after the April Coup). On the advice of the KGB, Amin ordered an assault group to storm the hotel room and kill the terrorists. The assault team, dressed in protective Soviet vests and armed with Kalashnikovs, showered the room where the te rrorists and hostage were with bullets. Dubs was fatally wounded and died. He had at least two bullet wounds. Two of the terrorists were killed, one was taken prisoner, and the other managed to escape. It became clear that the four terrorists had had only three pistols.

          At the time of the assault, [present] in the hotel were S. G. Bakhturin (code name ‘Volgin’), the security assi stant to the ambassador and Fi rst Secretary; Yu. I. Kutepov ('Krabs'), Second Secretary; and A. S. Klus hnikov, an adviser on crime prevention with the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the DRA. During the operation they had suggested that they stall for time, not inform correspondents, not en ter into negotiations w ith the terrorists but liquidate them instead and keep prying eyes away from the hotel. They did not allow the Americans, who had come to the hotel, to take any of the used bullet shells. In case the room was to be examined by experts, a gun of unknown origin similar to a Kalashnikov was planted in the room and registered as taken from the terrorists.

          On the following day Osadchy and Yuly visited Amin on instructions from the Center to agree on how to justify the affair to the Americans. They agreed to express their condolences to the Americans, to lower flags on government buildings and to print photographs of the four terrorists in the newspapers. In or der to frustrate requests from the Americans to question the detained terrorist and hunt down the one who escaped, it was decided to shoot the one who ha d been detained and to shoot another prisoner pretending The KGB in Afghanistan that he was the fourth terrorist. The story that all four kidnappers had been killed during the assault would be fed to the newspapers. During the night both the doomed men were executed. If the Americans were to ask for an explanation for the involvement of Soviet advisers in the operation to capture the terrorist s, Amin, Sarwari and Tarun were to say that the Afghan side had independently and without consultation decided to take radical action to deal with the terrorists and that there ha d been no Soviet advisers present at all. As soon as the Cheka got rid of Amin, the disinformation service planted a new version of the death of Ambassador Dubs in the foreign press.

          “During investigations into the crimes of the CIA agent Amin, it has become known that the four ‘terrorists’ were members of an Islamic Shiite organization and that they were reacting to Amin’s unjustified mass repression. By eliminating Muslims, Amin was acting as an imperialist agent and the terrorists were therefore prepared to take extreme measures in order to make the Americans acknowledge this. They had planned to kidnap the American ambassador and to force him under the threat of death to reveal his cards and acknowledge the ties between the embassy of the USA in Kabul and Amin. When Dubs was in the hands of the terrorists in the Kabul Hotel, Amin gave orders for the otherwise needless assault and ordered that no mercy should be shown. During the shooting Ambassador Dubs was fatally wounded, one terrorist killed and another wounded. Two were captured but they were killed on the following day. They were liquidated by Tarun at Amin’s orders. Tarun himself was killed in unexplained circumstances on 14 September 1979.

          By kidnapping Dubs, the group of extremists, who were members of an Islamic organization, intended to force the American ambassador to speak about Amin’s co-operation with the Americans and to expose him as a CIA agent. Amin took measures to eliminate all the members of the group and to save himself from exposure. The conduct of the Carter administration was s hocking. It found it easy to sacrifice the life of the American ambassador in order to keep secret Amin’s connections with the CIA.”

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @03:48PM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @03:48PM (#650029) Journal
            Sorry, I didn't complete the whataboutism above. You mentioned a "plan" by the US for false flag terrorist attacks, ignoring that it was far from being something serious. Meanwhile, we have an likely false flag terrorist attack, the kidnapping of a US ambassador, with heavy Soviet involvement in 1979 (as part of more than a century of known bad behavior by Russian intelligence stretching back to the time of the Czars). It would have been similarly convenient for Russia to stage an assassination attempt, but make it look like a US false flag operation to frame the Russians.

            Hell, half a dozen intelligence agencies could have done that, amirite? I didn't mean to present this as a serious argument, but instead to remind people that a) Russian intelligence has a long history of nasty schemes, and b) insinuation is not evidence.

            At some point, you have to go with actual evidence, not "it could have happened" arguments backed by a really weak military plan (the US military plans everything including wars with our allies and fighting off alien invasions) from back in 1962. After all, I can point to a seedy murder of an ambassador in 1979. That's more recent!
            • (Score: 2) by Pav on Friday March 09 2018, @11:55PM

              by Pav (114) on Friday March 09 2018, @11:55PM (#650309)

              Context is important. Someone in Russia would say the US security establishment has a history of bad behavior up to and including the assassination of a president (which is of course why I mentioned Kennedy). Someone in the US might point to the many (well earned) suspicions around the KGB and its successors, say the whole Kennedy thing is a conspiracy theory, mention Russia is literally ruled by an ex KGB guy, and say the FBI/NSA/CIA Wikileaks stuff is just a Russian psyop. Others on both sides might eye both their own and other security establishments with roughly equal suspicion, especially in instances where a "happening" might advance an official agenda.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @07:30PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @07:30PM (#650176)

        Concerning "In other words, everyone is bad so it doesn't really matter who does what."

        Since there are so many bad actors on all sides, it matters more than ever "who does what".

        One should not be artificially blind to bad actors just because they feign being on "your side".

      • (Score: 2) by quietus on Sunday March 11 2018, @12:27PM

        by quietus (6328) on Sunday March 11 2018, @12:27PM (#650899) Journal

        The problem with this narrative is that Russia has killed Russian defectors before.

        Skripal was not a defector. He didn't flee to the West, but was unmasked as an MI6 spy by Russian counter-intelligence (a hugely efficient one, as he blew the cover of about 300 Russian operatives in the west). Only in 2010 Skripal came to the UK, as part of a spy swap with the United States.

        The point now is that there's an unwritten rule that spies exchanged in such a swap have nothing to fear: which explains why he didn't have any body guards, and his dining out in a pizzeria.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by kazzie on Friday March 09 2018, @10:07AM (1 child)

      by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @10:07AM (#649898)

      Skripal is no Litvinenko

      Aside from the differences in the two men's moral character, I also see a difference in the plausible deniability of the two situations.

      Because Litvinenko was the only victim in the 2006 event, there were a number of possible explanations for his sudden illness (at the time). It was some weeks before a radioactive culprit was suspected, and in the meantime the whole thing could be written off as mysterious happen-stance.

      The fact that both Skripal and his daughter fell ill at the same time, with the same unexplained symptoms, means that spidey-senses were tingling immediately. Given the media and public's awareness of the Litvinenko case, it's natural that suspicion should fall on Russian agents. But suspicion is no substitute for evidence.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by kazzie on Friday March 09 2018, @10:10AM

        by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @10:10AM (#649901)

        A corollary:

        If Skripal's daughter had not fallen ill, there would be far more uncertainty and doubt about what happened to him. He may even have been left on the park bench long enough to die. As such, it could be thought unfortunate for the perpetrators that more than one person was infected (or whatever the appropriate term is).

    • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday March 09 2018, @04:18PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday March 09 2018, @04:18PM (#650041) Journal

      Skripal is no Litvinenko

      No, but he is a possible Steel dossier source. [telegraph.co.uk]

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:32AM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:32AM (#649832)

    The toxicity of nerve agents is such that a person involved in delivery of the agent incurs extreme risk merely by being in proximity to the agent.

    Because of this, I am curious about how the agent was delivered, and whether it was airborne,
    or whether actual skin contact was used as in the case of the Korean half-brother's assassination.

    We may never know, but it's an interesting question nonetheless.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:18AM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @04:18AM (#649853)

      they are small molecules, so any form of exposure will work. However, they do degrade quite fast.

      Without wanting to speculate, it is not hard imagining coating a surface commonly touched by either party.

      Vanishingly small quantities are needed, and the very fact they managed to get treatment suggests the received dose was low.

      • (Score: 2) by EETech1 on Friday March 09 2018, @06:10AM

        by EETech1 (957) on Friday March 09 2018, @06:10AM (#649869)

        Seems like something you could build into a jacket.
        Just have a pressurized capsule, and a nozzle hidden in the back, trigger it with your hand in your pocket as you walk by them on the bench.
        Proceed to your hotel room for decontamination.

        You must be stealthy, remember that park bench likely had a camera mounted on it.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @06:11AM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @06:11AM (#649870)

        Russia is using exotic weapons (polonium, nerve agent, etc.) because this sends a message. Everybody knows that Putin can kill defectors with impunity. He doesn't have to succeed every time.

        The goal here is to make all defectors afraid of being killed. It isn't important to kill a specific person.

        If the attempt were serious, a Russian agent would convince a Muslim immigrant to stab the defector with a knife. Ideally this would be done without pay, for example by having the Russian agent claim that the defector had been insulting Mohammed. Nobody would ever trace this back to Russia, and the police would quickly brush the "Asian" crime under the rug. Most likely, Russia and other countries have done this numerous times.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 09 2018, @07:26AM (1 child)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @07:26AM (#649881) Journal

          If the attempt were serious

          They'd just shoot/stab the target and make it look like a robbery. No need to leave a patsy behind who might screw up the whole operation.

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @10:09AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @10:09AM (#649899)

            Nah, that's the American M.O. Simple and effective.

            The Russians are death tech geeks.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @07:28AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @07:28AM (#649882)

          The goal here is to make all defectors afraid of being killed. It isn't important to kill a specific person.

          Funnily enough there are at least 13 very recent cases [businessinsider.com] where Russia might very much like the people involved to keep their mouths shut, and maybe highlight the dangerous consequences of defection to them as well. Possibly. Perhaps it's just one of those "astounding coincidences".

          • (Score: 2) by vux984 on Friday March 09 2018, @07:55AM

            by vux984 (5045) on Friday March 09 2018, @07:55AM (#649884)

            Maybe. Maybe not. The 3 ring circus going on serves their ends just fine.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @08:00AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @08:00AM (#649886)

            Russia has a few people buy a piddly amount of advertising, amounting to 0.005% of the amount spent in the election, using it to generate a bit of strife such as that New York protest with Michael Moore... and what does it matter? This does not embarrass Putin at home in Russia.

            If you are ex-KGB and want to suffer horribly, repeat the allegations that Putin was shipped off to an undesirable post due to molesting boys. You'll end up consuming something like einsteinium, or a purified plutonium isotope, or rosary pea toxin, or cisplatin, or...

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Friday March 09 2018, @12:51PM

            by PiMuNu (3823) on Friday March 09 2018, @12:51PM (#649930)

            One can make a statistical determination of the probability that the instances were random. For example, consider the set of all people involved in "X". What is the likelihood that person A would die by chance? What is the likelihood that person A + person B would die, based on e.g. lifestyle factors, age, etc. The challenge is to not introduce a selection bias when choosing the set of all people involved in "X". What happens if we change the selection criteria? One can estimate the systematic bias by changing the selection criteria.

            Presumably CIA/MI5/MI6 have some people who do this sort of statistical analysis.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday March 09 2018, @06:47PM

          by bob_super (1357) on Friday March 09 2018, @06:47PM (#650154)

          > If the attempt were serious

          Almost killing three people with a nerve agent can be, a bit like an ACME gun with a BANG! flag, considered "not serious". TMYK!

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Whoever on Friday March 09 2018, @06:27AM (7 children)

      by Whoever (4524) on Friday March 09 2018, @06:27AM (#649874) Journal

      In fact a police officer who merely helped Skripal is also very ill in hospital.

      • (Score: 2) by zocalo on Friday March 09 2018, @07:37AM (5 children)

        by zocalo (302) on Friday March 09 2018, @07:37AM (#649883)
        Some news sources are reporting that over 20 people have been treated for ill effects relating to the incident. *If* that's true (lots of rumours still) and those ill effects are a result of the nerve agent used then a contaminated surface contact seem like the most likely delivery method as that would allow for some targetting of the intended victim(s) but allows for a larger number of collateral victims with less serious effects, including the police officer who arrived on the scene after the fact, presumably suffering ill effects as a result of skin contact with the comatose Skripals. Aerosol might work too though, e.g. if enough residue were to be left on the skin of the victims to be a hazard for the police officer, so I don't think it's possible to draw and firm conclusions from the public data yet.

        Either way though, the use of nerve agent does tend to point to a state actor and there's really only one obvious state that would seem to have both motive and a track record in this area. Given the method seems to have entailed an extremely high risk of innocent collateral victims I suspect there's going to be a lot of pressure from the more hawkish members of government to be seen to be taking a hard line on those thought (or known) to be responsible. Expelling diplomats alone probably isn't going to cut it, so we can probably expect to see a whole bunch of trade and travel sanctions getting slapped on various parties in fairly short order followed by some tit-for-tat responses which, on top of a likely tradewar instigated by the US' introduction of new import tariffs, is just what the world economy needs at this point.
        --
        UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Friday March 09 2018, @12:53PM (4 children)

          by PiMuNu (3823) on Friday March 09 2018, @12:53PM (#649931)

          The UK government is taking the line "prove who is guilty then respond" - a responsible line I think. Maybe just a quiet way of flapping/procrastinating/burying, but I can't imagine US government responding in the same way.

          What was the diplomatic outcome following Litvinenko?

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by zocalo on Friday March 09 2018, @01:40PM (1 child)

            by zocalo (302) on Friday March 09 2018, @01:40PM (#649945)
            I agree with the getting the facts straight part - the UK is generally pretty methodical and thorough in situations like this - but don't think the hawks or media will let them get away with just burying it, even if that were the intent. Members of the British public were harmed, including a police officer no less, right in the heart of prime Conservative-voting, Brexit-supporting, rural England so The Daily Mail et. al are going to be all over it and highly unlikely to to let it drop until Justice Is Done. Or something even better comes along, of course.

            The outcome after Litvinenko is in TFS; the UK tried (and failed) to expel the likely perpetrators, expelled a few Russian diplomats instead, and the Russians then responded in kind. Typically in these cases the "diplomats" being expelled are those connected with the security services and has the secondary effect of disrupting communications with local informants and agents, but with the corollary that you might not catch all the replacements, so it's a bit more serious than it might at first appear. Assuming the UK can single out one country, or perhaps a group of individuals, then I'm fully expecting a similar response here too, and if that country happens to be Russia (who has to be the prime suspect given they have the means, the motive, *and* past history) then there will probably be an escalation for the repeat offence, which probably means some additional trade sanctions that will probably also be reciprocated. There's also been talk of some form of political boycott of the World Cup, although that was mostly Boris Johnson so might not actually have any grounds in reality.
            --
            UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
            • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Friday March 09 2018, @02:43PM

              by PiMuNu (3823) on Friday March 09 2018, @02:43PM (#649974)

              > The outcome after Litvinenko is in TFS

              I guess I didn't even read TFS, let alone TFA. Mod me down :)

              > There's also been talk of some form of political boycott of the World Cup, although that was mostly Boris Johnson so might not actually have any grounds in reality.

              I note that Russia has been allowed back into the Bolympics. I wonder if that will lead to some boycotts by nations who don't condone cheating => break up of the bolympics (not a bad thing IMHO, it's just a big advertising hack/scam)

          • (Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Monday March 12 2018, @12:58AM (1 child)

            by Fluffeh (954) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 12 2018, @12:58AM (#651146) Journal

            but I can't imagine US government responding in the same way.

            What on earth are you talking about? They are about the only country in the world still not convinced that the Russians helped get Trump elected as President....

            • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday March 12 2018, @09:44AM

              by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday March 12 2018, @09:44AM (#651269)

              > What on earth are you talking about?

              The US media theatre tends to push for a "shoot from the hip" mentality in government. But I agree, the Trump vs Russia thing is a point.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by choose another one on Friday March 09 2018, @09:02AM

        by choose another one (515) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 09 2018, @09:02AM (#649892)

        Where "merely helped" is apparently "gave CPR to". Significant exposure is not really surprising if that is the case.

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