Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by janrinok on Sunday March 11 2018, @01:42AM   Printer-friendly
from the life-goes-on dept.

The renamed TPP, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership has been signed by 11 countries. https://globalnews.ca/news/4069924/tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-signing-canada/

Thankfully, Trump's withdrawal from the TPP allowed the Canadian people to persuade their government to push for removal of most of the contentious IP obligations that the US demanded, http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2017/11/rethinking-ip-in-the-tpp/. America is considering rejoining, https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/us/politics/mnuchin-tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-trump.html

The Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) will reduce tariffs in countries that together amount to more than 13 per cent of the global economy – a total of $10 trillion. With the United States, it would have represented 40 per cent.

Even without the United States, the deal will span a market of nearly 500 million people, making it one of the globe's three largest trade agreements, according to Chilean and Canadian trade statistics.

[...] Trump has also threatened to dump the North American Free Trade Agreement unless the other two members of the pact, Canada and Mexico, agree to provisions that Trump says would boost U.S. manufacturing and employment. He argues that the 1994 accord has caused the migration of jobs and factories southward to lower-cost Mexico.

[...] The 11 member countries are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam.


Original Submission

Related Stories

President Trump Proposes Rejoining the Trans-Pacific Partnership 74 comments

Trump Proposes Rejoining Trans-Pacific Partnership

President Trump, in a surprising reversal, told a gathering of farm state lawmakers and governors on Thursday morning that he was directing his advisers to look into rejoining the multicountry trade deal known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a deal he pulled out of within days of assuming the presidency.

Rejoining the 11-country pact could be a sharp reversal of fortune for many American industries that stood to benefit from the trade agreement's favorable terms and Republican lawmakers who supported the pact. The deal, which was initiated by the Obama administration, was largely viewed as a tool to prod China into making the type of economic reforms that the United States and others have long wanted.

Both Democrats and Republicans attacked the deal during the president campaign, but many business leaders were disappointed when Mr. Trump withdrew from agreement, arguing that the United States would end up with less favorable terms attempting to broker an array of individual trade pacts and that scrapping the deal would empower China.

Republicans in Congress have also been skeptical of Mr. Trump's tendencies on trade, and 25 Republican senators sent a letter to Mr. Trump urging him to re-engage with the pact "so that the American people can prosper from the tremendous opportunities that these trading partners bring."

Previously: Donald Trump to Withdraw US from Trans-Pacific Partnership
Renamed TPP Signed, Without the IP Rules, Without the USA

Related: "Legal Scrub" of TPP Makes Massive Change to Penalties for Copyright Infringement
US Government's Own Report Shows Toxic TPP "Not Worth Passing"
Australia Leads Charge to Revive TPP While Canada Abstains


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @01:48AM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @01:48AM (#650730)

    1. Canada gains trade advantages while 'Merica doesn't.
    2. Draconian copyright provisions are gone because 'Merica was isolationist.
    3. Canada can just negotiate a one on one trade deal with 'Merica because that is the Trump way.

    • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @01:58AM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @01:58AM (#650732)

      The man was sweating. The man was smiling. The woman was in pain. The woman was screaming. But what lies behind the screams? The man wanted to know. And so, he slammed. Slam! Slam! Slam! Slam! Slam! Slam! The fists endlessly collided with the woman's flesh until nothing remained, not even pain. The answer. He had found it. Silence. The answer was silence. Sweet, sweet silence.

      • (Score: 1, Disagree) by cocaine overdose on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:24AM (6 children)

        Your art is underappreciated. Just know, I enjoy reading your original stories. The macabre is new and fresh.
        • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:13AM (5 children)

          by captain normal (2205) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:13AM (#650789)

          Are you E.F.'s brother, or offspring? Or are just another E.F.bot?

          --
          When life isn't going right, go left.
          • (Score: 1) by cocaine overdose on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:27AM (4 children)

            Who is E.F
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:46AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:46AM (#650804)
              • (Score: 1) by cocaine overdose on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:35AM (1 child)

                I see the resemblance. Albeit, I'd like to think my jew-hating, gun-loving, U S A, U S A, U S A is a bit more nuanced than "Kickin' ass, taking names, and textually stomping whining Liberals and statist bootlickers."

                What does a man gain from having two accounts anyway? Unless I'm E.F and I'm raising a sockpuppet army to spread the Good Word TM of the right party. Maybe it's all one big ruse to convert followers via memetic warfare. Join the hivemind or perish, commie scum. Et al.

                Maybe that one rambling "philosopher" slipped his semen into my mouth when I was sleeping, and now I have syphilis encephalitis. My brain's so swollen I can't even remember that I used to post under a different handle. But then how would you explain the recent post by EF? Perhaps I've also split personalities. What would happen if the two maniacs got a hold of the other? Would it be me just replying to myself for hours on end? Or would I get no reply at all, because the other personality isn't there to reply. Would I die? I'm sure it would be extremely painful.
                • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:30AM

                  by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:30AM (#650841) Homepage

                  Your posts are good, and definitely in the spirit. I can certainly see the need for your emergence. But talking a big game up front, the crowd is expecting you to succeed where I failed. Bang out some Magnum Opera or be just another Good Discussion Poster™.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:51PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:51PM (#650926)

              That is exactly what a bot would say!

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:26PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:26PM (#650968)

      Likely outcome. More jobs move to china and mexico. NAFTA promised almost the exact same outcome as TPP. How did that work out for you?

      Those countries are playing you. Trump said 'hey maybe I want some tariffs'. Which brought every in to negotiate. It is called price anchoring. You open with a ludicrous high bid. You then negotiate to the middle. If you open with your middle ground you often end up with less. This is the way people negotiate. Trump is just being open with it. The media is just being ludicrous with it.

      Draconian copyright provisions are gone becauseCanada can just negotiate a one on one trade deal
      Ah good ol inflexibility. Because one size fits all huh?

      That thing was designed to screw you over and make you think you got a good deal. Trump called it for what it was. A bad deal. I voted for him just so he would kill that deal. I got what I wanted. Everything else is gravy. Watching the media turn into a pool of drooling morons who change their story every other day has been most amusing and something I wanted to see for a long time and an added bonus.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Entropy on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:51AM (16 children)

    by Entropy (4228) on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:51AM (#650742)

    13%? A whole 13%..

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Sulla on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:07AM (9 children)

      by Sulla (5173) on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:07AM (#650746) Journal

      Always felt like the too-secret-to-read TTP would have been greatly beneficial to the people who are already wealthy and probably have made our defecit worse in the meantime. Why would the Chinese sign a deal that helps us when they are already doing a good job and having us send them money.

      --
      Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:33AM (3 children)

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:33AM (#650799) Homepage Journal

        The TPP is an Obama number. And it's a horrible deal. The ISDS, the investor-state dispute settlement, very smart lawyering. That one would have been great for our hedge funds, for our private equity, for so much of our financial industry. But overall the TPP is a disaster. A very bad deal to punish the United States, a rape of our country. It's ridiculous. I reversed it. It's a deal that was designed for China to come in, as they always do, through the back door and totally take advantage of everyone. If you look at the way China and India and almost everybody takes advantage of the United States -- China in particular, because they're so good. It's the number 1 abuser of this country. And if you look at the way they take advantage, it's through currency manipulation. It's not even discussed in the almost 6,000-page agreement. Incredible!

        As I said in Davos, I would do TPP if we were able to make a substantially better deal. The deal was terrible, the way it was structured was terrible. If we did a substantially better deal, I would be open to TPP. I like bilateral, because if you have a problem, you terminate. You don't have that same option with TPP.

        We’re going to stop the ridiculous trade deals that have taken everybody out of our country and taken companies out of our country, and it’s going to be reversed. I think you’re going to have a lot of companies come back to our country.

        A couple of people in the Republican party say Trump is against trade. I'm not against trade. I just want to make better deals. I think it's great. I think having trade is great. I want to make better deals.

        I'm always so amazed when I see somebody else talking about my viewpoints. My viewpoints are very simple: I want great deals for this country. Somebody said, "are you a free trader?" The answer is yes. But to have free trade we have to have smart people. We don't have smart people representing us. Or we have people who are controlled by the lobbyists, who are controlled by the special interests, by the global special interests. But, yes, I'm a free trader.

        But they say, "how do you define your stance on trade?" One of the reporters asked me this question and I said here's my stance on trading: I want to make great deals for the United States. Call it fair trade, call it free trade, there's 10 different names they can give it. I want to make great deals for the people of the United States. I want to bring jobs back. I don't want companies leaving because we don't know what we're doing.

        Why are people upset that with free trade, that I like, that I want to make better deals? I said I want to make better deals with Mexico. I want to make better deals with China. They say, "Oh, Trump is messing with free trade." No, I'm messing with bad deals that we can make good. I can make good deals. Why would somebody fight that?

        I mean, the U.S. Chamber fights. They say, "Oh, Trump wants to stop free trade." I don't want to stop free trade. I love free trade. But I want to make great deals. I want to take a deal that's faulty -- where we're losing hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars a year -- and make it good. Isn't that a positive thing? Okay? I'm fixing them. And if we can't fix them, there are consequences. We won't trade. And you know how long that will last? About 24 hours, before they come to the table. But you have to be able to walk. Every time you want to make a good deal you have to be able to walk. Or you don't have a country. Make America Great Again!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:01PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:01PM (#650930)

          As usual the US is whining , after decades of screwing everyone , rejecting your own signature and pulling out of international treaties you come whining about the trade deals ? You got some balls . We just enjoy your whining as of late and laugh at you. Laugh cause you're getting screwed by Trump and beg for more. Well you elected him , deserve the worst that can happen to you for it. Tradewise , i hope you get left out of all the deals cause your signature carries no weight anymore. NONE .. You became the enemy of everyone , you want to have trade wars with everyone , well ok have them , noone cares about having the US as a partner. You guys screwed over everyone and think we're going to have any sympathy ? LOL ROFL
           

          • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:44PM

            by Sulla (5173) on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:44PM (#650935) Journal

            A world where China is the superpower is going to be an interesting world. Better hope you are an authorized and recognized ethnicity or you might end up sterile. US control of the world hasn't been great, but when China is done with you there will be a whole lot of crow eating going on.

            --
            Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
        • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:39PM

          by Hyperturtle (2824) on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:39PM (#650952)

          You are very much out of character in regards to your writing style with this reply, but I wanted you to know that. Modding your post can't express that appropriately.

          You often nail it, but in this case you let the facts get in the way! Next time step away before submitting and review it again with your internal Trump narrative voice; it may be a good idea also to write it first in an offline document and judge the writing style when in different fonts, to better leap out at you what the differences are since the presentation may be much different.

          This way you can help catch the tone/narration and detect a presentation dissonance compared to other times, without focusing too much on the facts. Changing the font or layout in a seperate document will cause just enough difference to get your mind a little off-guard with how it looks different, rather than allowing you to focus too much on the technical accuracy of what you've written. I don't know if you can get 2nd opinions on what's written before its posted, but sometimes a small delay to make sure you're properly in character may be all that you'd need to catch stylization inconsistencies!

          Consistency isn't key, because as a leader you need to keep people guessing to some extent. If they figure you out, then you're a follower because you'd be predictable, following yourself if not other leaders. But familiarity/expectation setting is important, to keep it feeling like we're still talking to the same man, even if what the same man has said differs over time.

          That, or don't stay up so late, because it changes your personality too much! (and yeah bring the jobs back!)

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:26AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:26AM (#650862)

        too-secret-to-read TTP

        Are you just trolling or too stupid to google?

        https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/trade/free-trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements-concluded-but-not-in-force/cptpp/comprehensive-and-progressive-agreement-for-trans-pacific-partnership-text/ [mfat.govt.nz]

        Why would the Chinese sign a deal that helps us when they are already doing a good job and having us send them money.

        Purpose was to have a trade deal with all economies in the region *EXCLUDING* China to put some economic pressure on China and reduce their leverage in the region. The deal was to leverage US economic impact in the region. Unfortunately, the current US administration and many of the people (like yourself, it seems) in America are too stupid to see this very basic reason. Nevertheless, it's now signed. And if new parties want to come in, they will have no negotiating power anymore.

        probably have made our defecit worse in the meantime

        Which deficit? Because Trump surely made your current account deficit worse. As for trade deficit, I agree, it needs to come down because now America is getting a FREE RIDE. USD is almost like the Bitcoin pyramid scheme - print dollars, get stuff for nothing. So yes, US trade deficit will come down along with your standard of living as you embrace isolationist tendencies. But like with any of these things, the chickens will come home to roost later and then you can blame Obama for starting a trade war (because you know, alternate reality rules in America these days)

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:56PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:56PM (#650987)

          Are you just trolling or too stupid to google?

          The text was actually secret for a long time. Are you trolling or too stupid to remember that?

          Purpose was to have a trade deal with all economies in the region *EXCLUDING* China to put some economic pressure on China and reduce their leverage in the region.

          The purpose was corporate supremacy, which is why it included draconian copyright and patent provisions, as well as international corporate tribunals which would threaten the sovereignty of governments. I suspect you are indeed trolling. If our goal was simply to reduce their leverage, then we could do that without draconian copyright and patent rules, and without corporate tribunals. But the US government is too corrupt for that, so good riddance to the TPP in the US.

          • (Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:18PM

            by Fluffeh (954) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:18PM (#651080) Journal

            without draconian copyright and patent rules

            I found it rather amusing that the moment the US pulled out of the TPP, it's like those whole volume in the TPP dedicated to copyright and patents was simply thrown out. It's amazing how much the other nations were willing to offer up to be in the agreement. Clearly the cost to the nations of faffing about with all the copyright stuff was worth the price of the expanded free markets. Guess it also goes to show how far the US has fallen when their leaving the TPP no longer causes it to implode.

            If I were a foreign nation that wanted to see the US taken off its perch at the top of the world, I would want it done in such a way where most of the people in the US didn't even realise that anything had changed. So basically, just like Trump is doing. I really didn't think that it was possible to basically be destroying a country on the global scene while all the time chanting MAGA, but apparently I was wrong on that account.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:33PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:33PM (#650951)

        The problem with these trade deals is that they're designed to help the richest. And not only are they not designed with the poor in mind, typically, but they often target the poorest by removing a country's ability to protect their workers against unreasonable conduct. The WTO in particular was a bad idea as environmental and workplace safety regulations could be seen as illegal trade barriers.

        What's more, these trade deals are pretty much always better for countries behind the curve than those ahead as it makes it easier to offshore jobs to where labor is cheaper than what domestic workers can afford to work for.

      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:24PM

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:24PM (#651047)

        The 11 member countries are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam.

        It's in the summary. China is not in the TPP.

        Of course the TPP is for the benefit of the wealthy, apparently they're going to use their huge wealth to create jobs or something.

        My country has wound up gaining bugger-all because we export food, and our "trading" partners love to use their taxpayer's money to prop up farmers.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:25AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:25AM (#650765)

      10 trillion dollars? A whole 10 trillion dollars..

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:07AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:07AM (#650788)

        Yeah, almost as much as the US debt. Talk about small change.

        • (Score: 1) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:11AM (1 child)

          by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:11AM (#650812) Homepage Journal

          Our debt is out of control. It's coming up to $21 trillion. It's not there, it's getting there. Because Bush & Obama left me with a mess. $7 trillion for wars in the Middle East, $29 trillion to bail out our insurance, our banks -- pretty soon it adds up to real money, as the other politicians like to say. They like to say it, they don't do anything about it. I'm the first and only one to do something. We need to get our trade in balance, we can't keep running trade deficits, so I canceled the TPP. Our taxes were much too high, they were killing our economy. So I did the biggest Tax Cut in history -- it's not just a Tax Cut, we had to call it the Tax Cuts & Jobs Act, because we found out there were so many jobs that come with that. Our economy has grown tremendously since I was elected.

          But to have a strong economy, we need strong infrastructure. My administration is working every day to deliver the world-class infrastructure that our people deserve and, frankly, that our country deserves. That’s why I signed an executive order to dramatically reform the nation’s badly broken infrastructure permitting process.

          It took 11 months to build the Empire State Building. But today, it can take as long as a decade and much more than that -- many, many stories where it takes 20 and 25 years just to get approvals to start construction of a fairly routine highway. Highway builders must get up to 16 different approvals involving nine different federal agencies governed by 29 different statutes. One agency alone can stall a project for many, many years, and even decades.

          Not only does this cost our economy billions of dollars, but it also denies our citizens the safe and modern infrastructure they deserve. This over-regulated permitting process is a massive self-inflicted wound on our country -- it’s disgraceful -- denying our people much-needed investments in their community.

          So that can go out to 20 years, that can go out to about 20 years to get something approved. This is for a highway. I’ve seen a highway recently in a certain state -- I won’t mention its name -- 17 years. I could have built it for four or five million dollars without the permitting process. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it took 17 years to get it approved and many, many, many, many pages of environmental impact studies.

          Obama really did a number on our infrastructure planning. Because he put in a rule that said you have to plan for climate change, for global warming, for rising sea level. You have to plan for flooding. For things that will probably never happen. Big waste of time, big waste of money. Big hoax by the Chinese and the global special interests. So I repealed that rule.

          With what I signed, it's going to be less than two years for a highway. So it’s going to be quick, it’s going to be a very streamlined process. And, by the way, if it doesn’t meet environmental safeguards, we’re not going to approve it. Very simple. We’re not going to approve it. I've gotten so many awards for environmental -- people don't know this -- I'm very environmental. I don't need some study to tell me if a project is bad for the environment, I know. And when it's bad I tell them "no."

          So my executive order also requires agencies to work together efficiently by requiring one lead agency for each major infrastructure project. It also holds agencies accountable if they fail to streamline their review process. So each agency is accountable. We’re going to get infrastructure built quickly, inexpensively -- relatively speaking -- and the permitting process will go very, very quickly.

          No longer will we tolerate one job-killing delay after another. No longer will we accept a broken system that benefits consultants and lobbyists at the expense of hardworking Americans.

          Now, I knew the process very well -- probably better than anybody. I had to get permits for this building and many of the buildings I built -- all of the buildings I built in Manhattan and many other places. And I will tell you that the consultants are rich people. They go around making it very difficult. They lobby Congress, they lobby state governments, city governments to make it very difficult so that you have to hire consultants, and that you have to take years and pay them a fortune. So we’re streamlining the process, and we won’t be having so much of that anymore.

          No longer will we allow the infrastructure of our magnificent country to crumble and decay. While protecting the environment, we will build gleaming new roads, bridges, railways, waterways, tunnels, and highways. We will rebuild our country with American workers, American iron, American aluminum, American steel. We're doing tariffs on the aluminum, on the steel. On solar panels. We will create millions of new jobs and make millions of American dreams come true.

          Our infrastructure will again be the best in the world. We used to have the greatest infrastructure anywhere in the world, and today we’re like a third-world country. We are literally like a third-world country. Our infrastructure will again be the best, and we will restore the pride in our communities, our nation, and all over the United States we’ll be proud again.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:50PM (#650958)

            And yet you decided to increase it by over a trillion dollars to fund tax cuts for the wealthiest.

            If our debt is so out of control, perhaps the first place to go looking for funding is the people who have it. In most cases you can't balance a budget on cuts alone at some point you have to increase your top line so that there's more to be had at the bottom line.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:49PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:49PM (#650957)

          I'll take it! Spare change? Can you spare some change?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 12 2018, @11:42AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 12 2018, @11:42AM (#651297)

      Well, the TPP by design left out China, India, Russia, Brazil, and South Africa. It was never intended to be a majority of countries; merely a treaty to boost trade OTHER than where it already is flourishing and covered by other agreements.

      America leaving just made it a LOT smaller.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:38AM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @03:38AM (#650754)

    An impetus for TPP was to isolate and encircle China, an initiative accompanying America's so-called Asia-pivot. Would be funny if China joined TPP.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:27AM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:27AM (#650768)

      Trump was right: The U.S. would be better off if the Presidents of yore had just gone to the beach instead.

      The U.S. government has spent trillions of dollars of resources (those are world-wide resources, when considering they were allocated through Uncle Sam's borrowing and counterfeiting), and it wasted those resources on nothing of value; there's nothing to show for it. NOTHING.

      Governmentalism is founded on the idea that a government is going to be a pretty damn good steward of society's resources, and that government brains will be pretty damn good investors. Well, once again, for the thousandth time, history has shown that this assumption just ain't true.

      America's "Asia pivot" now? Whose cockamamie idea is that? The same organization who invaded Vietnam based on the worthless Domino Theory?

      Decades later, and Vietnam's communists have been subdued by the joys of capitalistic trade. The lesson is clear: Get the fuck out of the way, governments, and let The People go about their peaceful, voluntary, mutually profitable business.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:00AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:00AM (#650775)

        Somalia is a paradise.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:22AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:22AM (#650778)

          Somalia was controlled by a single-party government operating under the philosophy of "scientific communism".

          That Somalia failed under this State is no surprised. What is even less surprising is that Somalia's culture of authoritarianism gave rise to government in the form of warlords.

          Nevertheless, with the overreaching centralized State out of the way, Somalians reverted to ancient, slightly capitalistic ideas about trade, and the result has been an enormous improvement in the quality of their lives; in fact, Somalians have experienced gains that in many ways far outstrip the results of the surrounding societies that exist under more "stable" governments.

          So, the failure of Somalia has nothing to do with capitalism or libertarianism, and indeed capitalism and a kind of libertarianism is what has saved them.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:37PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:37PM (#650920)

            Isn't Somalia controlled by muslim pirates?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:23AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:23AM (#650779)

          Somalia is functionally identical to the USA, plus or minus a few decades. What, you don't think the warlords consider themselves the ruling class? Hint: they are.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:43PM (#650979)

          Somalia was controlled by a single-party government operating under the philosophy of "scientific communism".

          That Somalia failed under this State is no surprised. What is even less surprising is that Somalia's culture of authoritarianism gave rise to government in the form of warlords.

          Nevertheless, with the overreaching centralized State out of the way, Somalians reverted to ancient, slightly capitalistic ideas about trade, and the result has been an enormous improvement in the quality of their lives; in fact, Somalians have experienced gains that in many ways far outstrip the results of the surrounding societies that exist under more "stable" governments.

          So, the failure of Somalia has nothing to do with capitalism or libertarianism, and indeed capitalism and a kind of libertarianism is what has saved them.

      • (Score: 1) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:27AM

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:27AM (#650816) Homepage Journal

        My predecessors left me one thing I'm very thankful for. My nuclear arsenal. It was one of the greatest, maybe the greatest ever. Until President Reagan did a number on it. Believe me, he weakened it tremendously. It's still one of the strongest, it's nothing like it was. Nothing like what we need. The Bushes and Clinton did nothing to make it strong again, to make it great again. Obama, terrible as he was, he did a little. He said, let's spend $1 trillion to modernize our nuclear. But he wanted to spend it over 30 years. It's not enough, folks. We need to invest much more in our nuclear.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by SubiculumHammer on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:25AM (7 children)

      by SubiculumHammer (5191) on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:25AM (#650781)

      geopolitically it made sense, but the problem was that we'd give up too much that makes us American by signing it.

      • (Score: 3, Disagree) by ilPapa on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:32AM (6 children)

        by ilPapa (2366) on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:32AM (#650783) Journal

        we'd give up too much that makes us American

        Of all the cockamamie ways that humans find to separate themselves from one another - language, religion, sports teams, race - none may be as completely idiotic as "national identity".

        There is no place on Earth that nationalism cannot make worse.

        --
        You are still welcome on my lawn.
        • (Score: 1, Disagree) by captain normal on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:27AM (5 children)

          by captain normal (2205) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:27AM (#650796)

          Yep...borders only exist in the minds of people straining to preserve their personal fiefdoms. If you look at satellite photos of the planet, you see no borders (except for a few heavily armed places). Borders and walls are not to keep people out, but to keep enslaved people in.

          --
          When life isn't going right, go left.
          • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:47AM

            by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Sunday March 11 2018, @07:47AM (#650825) Homepage Journal

            China, that's a great example. Don't you love what they've done in China? The Great Wall of China, built 2,000 years ago, is 13,000 miles long, folks. They say you can see it from space, right? You can't see it from space. Maybe if you have tremendous eyesight. But you can see it with satellite, you absolutely can. Let me tell you, it's so beautiful on the satellite. Like a long, winding river. But stone. And @FLOTUS [twitter.com] visited it, she looked absolutely stunning. As she always does, right? Her job is to look amazing and she does an amazing job at that.

            They didn't have tractors, they didn't have cranes, they didn't have excavation equipment. We need 1,000 miles and we have all the materials, we can do that so beautiful. This will be a wall with a big, very beautiful door because we want the legals to come back into the country. Not too many, we have too many legals right now. We want people of talent. We have a lot of good people, they’ve been here and they’ve done a good job. It’s a tough situation and in some cases they haven’t been good people, and there have been some problems. The good ones we’ll expedite.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @12:49PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @12:49PM (#650902)

            Borders and walls are not to keep people out, but to keep enslaved people in.

            No, borders are to keep people out. It's starts with people who violate your personal space, extends to your private space (home, small holding) and from their to bigger boundaries such as national borders. Only dysfunctional authoritarian (typically socialist) states employ borders need to "keep enslaved people in".

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:54PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @04:54PM (#650959)

            Borders exist because trying to govern an entire planet of people with differing cultures, problems and viewpoints has yet to become practical. We'll probably get their some day when it's practical to travel between any two places on the planet in a couple hours, but we're not there yet.

            Just look at how much trouble there is in most of the world with corruption and with local officials doing things that directly contradict what the national leaders are trying to accomplish. Or in places like the US and China where the main security threats are domestic terrorists rather than some foreign state.

            Not to mention how hard it's been in the US to pass even moderate gun control regulations like universal background checks even with the overwhelming support of the voters. And yet all the other developed countries have far more regulation on firearms than we do.

          • (Score: 2) by tibman on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:18PM (1 child)

            by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:18PM (#650994)

            hah! Yup, can't see the borders from space. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uLuecz--GXg/Va147uuAISI/AAAAAAAAeSE/Rz0ahAQ1Hd8/s640/korea%2Bnight%2Bno%2Blights.jpg [blogspot.com]
            There is a country between the two blobs of lights.

            And if you think the southern blob of lights has a northern border to enslave it's own people then you are delusional.

            --
            SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
            • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Monday March 12 2018, @11:21AM

              by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Monday March 12 2018, @11:21AM (#651293) Homepage Journal

              South Korea, they built the beautiful Concrete Wall on their Border. And it keeps the North Koreans out very well. They're at war, but it's a lot like peace. Because of the wall. And maybe they won't need the Concrete Wall much longer. Because of me!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:57AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @08:57AM (#650854)

      > Would be funny if China joined TPP.
      It is an effective counter move, so it's not improbable.

      I looked at the news about this partnership. Not much in official news. Therefore bad news for us...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:39PM (#650922)

        They would be sued into the ground using the ISDS backdoor.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:40PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:40PM (#650975)

      Trump was right: The U.S. would be better off if the Presidents of yore had just gone to the beach instead.

      The U.S. government has spent trillions of dollars of resources (those are world-wide resources, when considering they were allocated through Uncle Sam's borrowing and counterfeiting), and it wasted those resources on nothing of value; there's nothing to show for it. NOTHING.

      Governmentalism is founded on the idea that a government is going to be a pretty damn good steward of society's resources, and that government brains will be pretty damn good investors. Well, once again, for the thousandth time, history has shown that this assumption just ain't true.

      America's "Asia pivot" now? Whose cockamamie idea is that? The same organization who invaded Vietnam based on the worthless Domino Theory?

      Decades later, and Vietnam's communists have been subdued by the joys of capitalistic trade. The lesson is clear: Get the fuck out of the way, governments, and let The People go about their peaceful, voluntary, mutually profitable business.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by jb on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:28AM (6 children)

    by jb (338) on Sunday March 11 2018, @05:28AM (#650782)

    "Without the IP Rules" is a gross oversimplification.

    First up, although almost all the copyright provisions (including those on TPMs & ISP enforcement) have been "suspended", most of the patent provisions still remain in the IP Chapter.

    But more importantly nothing has actually been removed from TPP. The "suspended" provisions only stay suspended "until the Partes agree to end suspension of one or more of these provisions" (CPTPP Art. 2) ... which is a very thinly veiled code for "until the USA decides to rejoin".

    The whole "suspension" thing is one big con -- I'm quite surprised at how many in the media have fallen for it.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by RamiK on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:16AM (5 children)

      by RamiK (1813) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:16AM (#650791)

      In order to approve the provisions, the US state department will need to put together 13 different teams to individually negotiate with each nation on each provision. The guys sitting on the opposite side of the table:

      1. Are not the same guys as before since those teams were broken apart when the treaty was signed.
      2. Will demand a price for every provision but won't have to give up on anything since the treaty was already signed so the US can't negotiate terms elsewhere in the treaty.
      3. Will talk it over with the other members to cartel the US to paying up more.

      Considering all these awful prerequisites to renegotiate provisions, the reporters chose to follow the assessment of the Japanese team that the provisions aren't going to happen and that at best, the US will just have to take the loss and sign the treaty while hoping to push the IP provisions in another pact or in individual treaties later.

      Regardless, bad day for the (American) corporations that supported the provisions.

      --
      compiling...
      • (Score: 2) by jb on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:39AM (2 children)

        by jb (338) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:39AM (#650802)

        You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the the AU, CA & JP governments didn't support those provisions. Remember attribution notes in the negotiating draft of the IP Chapter that was leaked a few years ago? They made it pretty clear that US was not the only Party pushing those provisions.

        If AU, CA & JP genuinely didn't want those provisions to make it in, after the US withdrawal they'd have dispensed with them altogether in CPTPP (and the other 8 Parties would not have been likely to object).

        "Suspending" those provisions instead is an obvious & transparent ploy -- designed to make CPTPP easier to sell to the people at home up front, which in turn makes it easier to use a subsequent US return as a convenient excuse to "unsuspend" them again.

        In order to approve the provisions, the US state department will need to put together 13 different teams to individually negotiate with each nation on each provision

        Unfortunately it wouldn't be the US State Department, it'd be the USTR. That's right, the US lets its industry do much of its trade negotiation ... whereas here in AU (and in the other 10 Parties) industry is expected to sit in the dark like mushrooms and pretend that it's somehow possible to our government to represent our views on a deal we don't even get to see until negotiations have already concluded...

        2. Will demand a price for every provision but won't have to give up on anything since the treaty was already signed so the US can't negotiate terms elsewhere in the treaty.

        They could try, but they'd fail. The "price" the US offers is bringing with it a market that's far larger than any other TPP Party -- and that's the stick that USTR always wields: won't be any different on accession than it was during the original negotiations.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:38AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:38AM (#650867)

          The "price" the US offers is bringing with it a market that's far larger than any other TPP Party -- and that's the stick that USTR always wields: won't be any different on accession than it was during the original negotiations.

          The PURPOSE of TPP was to put pressure on China economically while increasing importance of US. So, talk about cutting one's nose off to spite the face. Thanks to Trump, US is becoming less and less relevant in Asia.

          • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:03PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:03PM (#650992)

            The purpose of the TPP was corporate supremacy under the guise of free trade. You have foolishly bought into the lies.

      • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:47AM (1 child)

        by captain normal (2205) on Sunday March 11 2018, @06:47AM (#650806)

        "... US state department will need to put together 13 different teams to individually negotiate with each nation on each provision."
        Right?...and where is this team supposed to come from? In a executive branch that can't seem to pull together a functioning staff of any kind?
         

        --
        When life isn't going right, go left.
        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:29AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @09:29AM (#650865)

          > ...and where is this team supposed to come from? In a executive branch that can't seem to pull together a functioning staff of any kind?

          My reading of "until the USA decides to rejoin" was "until the next administration", so that may be irrelevant.

          It appears that most other countries are waiting/hoping for a somewhat-competent adult that can be reasoned with to replace Trump. For the time being, they're trying to get some minor advantages by manipulating the Kindergartener-in-Chief -- with admittedly very limited success, since he's so far out their diplomatic experience is almost useless.

          When dealing with the US, diplomats should be replaced with people that have the requisite experience to deal with the current administration -- preschool teachers. Even better if they're good-looking young women with a high tolerance for sexual harassment. That could result in a few very beneficial treaties...

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:48PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 11 2018, @02:48PM (#650925)

    How many lawsuits will it take to prove this to be a bad deal

(1)