The UK says that a Soviet-developed Novichok nerve agent was used against Sergei Skripal, his daughter, and bystanders, and has given Russia "until midnight tonight" to explain how it came to be used:
British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Tuesday that Russia has "until midnight tonight" to explain how a lethal Novichok nerve agent that was developed in Russia came to be used on U.K. soil. Johnson said Britain is preparing to take "commensurate but robust" action.
Reiterating British Prime Minister Theresa May's statement that it was "highly likely" Russia was to blame for the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, Johnson said, "the use of this nerve agent would represent the first use of nerve agents on the continent of Europe since the Second World War."
Meanwhile, police are probing the death of a Russian exile living in London:
Nikolai Glushkov, a Russian exile who was a close friend of a noted critic of President Vladimir Putin, has died from an "unexplained" cause in London, police say. The Metropolitan Police says that its counter-terrorism unit is handling the case "because of associations that the man is believed to have had."
Glushkov, 68, was a close friend of former Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky, a prominent critic of the Kremlin who was found dead in 2013. At the time, an inquiry found he had hanged himself — but Glushkov publicly disputed the idea that his friend and former business ally would have killed himself.
As British media began reporting Glushkov's death, the police issued a statement saying, "An investigation is underway following the death of a man in his 60s in Kingston borough."
Previously: Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England
Use of Nerve Agent Confirmed in Skripal Assassination Attempt
Related Stories
A retired Russian military intelligence officer has fallen ill in England after exposure to an unknown substance. Does that sound familiar?
A man identified by local news reports as a retired Russian military intelligence officer who once spied for Britain is critically ill at a British hospital, and the authorities were investigating his "exposure to an unknown substance."
According to several reports, the man, found unconscious on a bench in the city of Salisbury, is Sergei V. Skripal, 66. He was once jailed by Moscow, then settled in Britain after an exchange of spies between the United States and Russia in 2010.
The British police have not publicly identified the man in the hospital or a 33-year-old woman who fell sick with him at a shopping mall called the Maltings.
The authorities have, however, released enough detail about what they called a "major incident" to draw some comparisons, however premature, to the case of Alexander V. Litvinenko, a former Russian spy who was poisoned in London in 2006.
Police Say Nerve Agent Was Used in Attempt to Kill Sergei Skripal
Police say that they have identified a specific nerve agent as being used in an attempt to kill a Russian who once spied for the UK. They have not named the nerve agent that was used. Officers who responded to the scene have also been hospitalized:
A nerve agent was used to try to murder a former Russian spy and his daughter, police have said. Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found unconscious in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon and remain critically ill. A police officer who was the first to attend the scene is now in a serious condition in hospital, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.
[...] Mr Rowley, head of Counter Terrorism Policing, said government scientists had identified the agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage. "This is being treated as a major incident involving attempted murder, by administration of a nerve agent," he said. "Having established that a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms... I can also confirm that we believe that the two people who became unwell were targeted specifically."
[...] Two other police officers who attended the scene were treated in hospital for minor symptoms, before they were given the all clear. It is understood their symptoms included itchy eyes and wheezing.
A woman who lived a short distance from where Sergei and Yulia Skripal were poisoned with the Novichok nerve agent has died. Prime Minister Theresa May is "appalled and shocked" by the death:
Police have launched a murder inquiry after a woman exposed to nerve agent Novichok in Wiltshire died. Dawn Sturgess, 44, died in hospital on Sunday evening after falling critically ill on 30 June. Charlie Rowley, 45, who was also exposed to the nerve agent in Amesbury, remains critically ill in hospital.
[...] Officers are still trying to work out how Ms Sturgess and Mr Rowley were exposed to the nerve agent although tests have confirmed they touched a contaminated item with their hands.
[...] Mrs May sent her "thoughts and condolences" and said officials are "working urgently to establish the facts". She said: "The government is committed to providing full support to the local community as it deals with this tragedy." British diplomat Julian King, the European Commissioner responsible for the EU's security union, said: "Those behind this are murderers."
[...] The working hypothesis is that the pair became contaminated after touching a poison container left over from the March attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal. The death of Dawn Sturgess, a British citizen on British soil, now changes the investigation to a murder inquiry, with all the diplomatic and security ramifications that carries. Britain has been blaming Moscow for the original attack in March, saying there is no plausible alternative to the Kremlin having ordered the assassination attempt. Russia has denied any involvement, suggesting instead this was the action of a weak British government looking to undermine the success of the current World Cup being hosted by Russia.
Here's something from the other side.
Previously: Former Russian Spy Exposed to "Unknown Substance" in Salisbury, England
Use of Nerve Agent Confirmed in Skripal Assassination Attempt
UK Gives Russia Until Midnight to Explain Use of Novichok Nerve Agent
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:02PM
Or...they say fuck it and go on about some tabloid nonsense? What is their end game here?
And Britain seems to be a crappy place for Russian defectors to live.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:06PM (9 children)
Russia will not respond to UK's midnight ultimatum 'until it is given nerve agent samples' [independent.co.uk]
Russian spy: Russia demands nerve agent sample from UK [bbc.com]
As Putin’s Opponents Flocked to London, His Spies Followed [nytimes.com]
Russian spy latest: Sergei Skripal is a 'traitor', says swapped agent Anna Chapman [independent.co.uk]
Russian spy: State TV anchor warns 'traitors' [bbc.com]
Russian state TV accuses UK of plotting spy attack [theguardian.com]
Russian broadcaster RT could be forced off UK airwaves [theguardian.com]
BBC Today programme cuts off Russian MP interview after he compares UK to Hitler [independent.co.uk]
Spy poisoning: why Putin may have engineered gruesome calling card [theguardian.com]
Sergei Skripal and the long history of assassination attempts abroad [theconversation.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @01:10AM (7 children)
Meanwhile:
1. White House won’t blame Russia for attack on former spy, but Rex Tillerson will [vice.com]...
2. .. except that Rex Tilleson and his aide Steve Goldstein are no more in US politics [apnews.com], being just fired.
Possible UK actions [vice.com]:
My bet? UK will punish Russia using harsh language! ("Aliens" reference).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:21AM
If you figured out that #2 happened because of #1, you're a lot smarter than Low I.Q. Dopey Rex. #2 happens. But I thank him!
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:38AM (1 child)
25% punitive tax on borscht imports is my bet, "that'll show 'em we're serious".
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:54AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:07AM (2 children)
> Possible UK actions [vice.com]:
> retreat from FIFA world cup in Russia - boo-bloody-hooo
This raises the distinct possibility that Italians killed that spy so that UK gets out the FIFA cup and Italy team gets a wildcard.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @10:59AM (1 child)
What? Italy didn't qualify?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by r1348 on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:32PM
Yeah, and totally had it coming.
An Italian.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:11PM
retreat from FIFA world cup in Russia - boo-bloody-hooo
Uhh....can we have their spot? We're so fine with Russia half our executive administration is willing to lie under oath about them for some totally benign reason.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @01:11PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-spy-poisoning-britain-s-theresa-may-plans-retaliation-n856471 [nbcnews.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:12PM (3 children)
Seriously... you need to stop redefining "breaking"
the present UK time is 23:11. This article was posted 20:57. The deadline is is now in 49min...
This "deadline" was given over TWENTYFOUR hours ago! this is NOT breaking, this is now olde news (yes old with an "e").
This is nether the 1st time this has happened and probably won't be the last.
if you cannot post quick enough dont put "breaking" because everyone and their news outlet would have already reported it
(Score: 2, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:46AM (2 children)
It's still light here in sunny California. Thanks to Daylight Saving Time. Whoever thought of that one was very smart!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @05:13AM (1 child)
FUCK DST
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @04:14PM
ALSO FUCK DJT
(Score: 3, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:18PM (39 children)
The UK USED to be a world power. Now it is just a little island with a government which seems to believe that the book "1984" was an instruction manual. It sure looks like a miserable place to live to me, what with the gang violence and the shitty weather and the government which has outlawed ownership of handguns so the average person is virtually unable to defend himself against violent criminals ( and make no mistake, the criminals are aware of this ).
The former Soviet Union could wipe the UK off the face of the earth if it wanted to. The UK threatening Russia is hilarious. It's like a little Pomeranian dog threatening a Belgian sheperd, which with a single bit could snap the neck of the Pomeranian and not even be phased in so doing.
Before you start accusing me of being a Soviet agent, I will tell you I am an American and the UK and its police state policies sicken me. Personally I view the UK as more of an enemy than a friend, and that is my perspective having observed UK government behavior since the late 1950s.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:27PM (9 children)
Change UK to US and it reads just as well!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Funny) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:33PM (3 children)
Why doesn't Mrs. May just ask that nice Mr. Trump why Mr. Putin has started murdering his political opponents in the UK again?
I'm sure Mr. Trump could just ask the next time Mr. Putin phones Washington to give him his instructions for the week.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:02AM (2 children)
Trump is president and there is nothing you can do about it but whine. Of course you are never going to accomplish anything meaningful in your entire life anyway, so whining is probably the best you can hope for.
(Score: 2, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:39AM
Rich Lowry in the New York Post called me "the most fabulous whiner in the world." I think he's probably right. I am the most fabulous whiner. I do whine because I want to win. And I'm not happy if I'm not winning. And I am a whiner and I keep whining and whining until I win! And I won for the country and I'm making the country great again!
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday March 15 2018, @08:05PM
Well, there's always the fact that I can't do anything about it because I'm not American.
Republicans have a long history of voting total fuckwits as president though, which has worked out great hasn't it?
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday March 15 2018, @01:41PM (4 children)
Where in the US are there security cameras on every corner, armed police officers literally *always* in sight, and loudspeakers constantly blaring instructions 24 hours a day? Because that was my experience last time I visited London, and I've never seen anything like it anywhere in the states. It very literally felt like walking into the stereotypical dystopian apocalypse film.
I mean the US has a similar level of constant surveillance, sure, but it's far less unnerving when it's not a constant visible intrusion on your daily life. The UK reads 1984 as a direct instruction manual; the US reads it as a warning...a warning about the crappy implementation Orwell came up with ;)
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday March 15 2018, @06:48PM (3 children)
So it's better to have them spy on you in secret than openly?
Reeeeeally!
I say it's quite buggerd any way you look at it.
You say "buggery", I say "your arse is fucked": either way, your arse is fucked.
1984 is alive and doing well in the US: you just can't see it as well.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday March 15 2018, @07:24PM (2 children)
Yes. It's better to live in a world where *they can't admit to doing that crap*.
Nobody gives a damn about surveillance cameras on every corner in London. If you point them out to people on the street, most people don't even realize they're there. When the surveillance is constantly in your face, you get used to it. If you don't know it's happening, you don't get acclimated, so when it finally gets revealed people actually still give enough of a shit to try to do something about it. Not always effectively, of course, but at least it's something. It's not good that it's happening in secret; but it's a good sign when the people doing it still feel like they need to hide it.
If black vans full of troops come and drag you out of your bed in the middle of the night, it can't possibly be good. But when those same vans are yanking people off of busy streets in broad daylight with impunity, that's a whole different kind of scary.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday March 15 2018, @08:13PM (1 child)
"If black vans full of troops come and drag you out of your bed in the middle of the night, it can't possibly be good. But when those same vans are yanking people off of busy streets in broad daylight with impunity, that's a whole different kind of scary."
Except it's a mixed idea:
Pulling people in off the street in both the UK and the US will raise alarms.
Pulling people in out of their beds in the UK and the US will raise alarms.
You think that the US gov can't track people like you if they want to? You got a cell phone? (I don't)
I'd be paranoid no matter what because that is the world you live in.
If you're not worried, you're not informed: which is most people in the UK AND US.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday March 15 2018, @09:13PM
How does "the US has a similar level of constant surveillance" make you think I believe the US is not capable of tracking people? Yes, both countries have similar surveillance, that's what I've been saying this entire time, but the way they engage in that surveillance says a lot about the mindset of the citizens being watched and the government watching them.
Yeah, that's you'd call a metaphor.
Consider the following PURELY HYPOTHETICAL scenario: Suppose the US government wants to make someone disappear. They *could* grab that person at work or off the street...but there would be witnesses, there would be pictures, and when the person couldn't be found there would be protests and lawsuits. So, instead they would do it in the middle of the night, driving an unmarked car and wearing black masks so nobody knows what happened and there's no evidence of their wrongdoing. Now, consider North Korea. You think the NK military is afraid to grab or even execute someone right on the street? You think they're worried about mass protests or legal action? Is that *better* just because they're doing it out in the open? My point is not that making people disappear in secret would be better; my point is that a government which isn't able to kill or disappear someone right out in the open is clearly better.
Of course, with surveillance the US wins this one...with actually killing people, the UK probably wins, as the cops over here have *no problem* shooting someone in the back with multiple cameras and witnesses...and they have no problem with that because they know they'll get away with it because they never get convicted. If they didn't expect to always get away with it, it probably wouldn't happen as much.
(Score: 3, Funny) by bob_super on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:27PM (1 child)
The UK could deploy all its computer assets to sway the presidential election, causing Putin to only win with 95% of the vote.
Which would be a blow to Putin, who decided he would win with 95.1% of the vote.
Where's the archduke, when the situation is ripe, and you need someone to shoot?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by KiloByte on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:33AM
And what, pray tell, is the relation between votes cast and votes counted? Maybe in some, perhaps even most, western countries — but certainly not Russia.
Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:56AM (13 children)
The UK still has a substantial nuclear force, its military is well-equipped, and they have about 150,000 active troops. Experts regularly put the Brits in the top 10 most powerful militaries. They couldn't beat Russia all on their own, but they could do quite a bit of damage if they had to, and could probably get help from their allies in NATO, the EU, and the Commonwealth.
As for the quality of life, the UK is ranked among the top 20 happiest nations, and significantly above the average for Europe as a whole. Crime rates are substantially lower than the USA. Not quite as nice as, say, Norway, but in general the Brits are pretty comfortable with their lives. Obviously you want to be able to carry a gun and are mad that you can't in the UK, but that's not the same as having a police state.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday March 14 2018, @01:01AM (7 children)
Can Russia actually "beat" the UK considering the UK has 100+ submarine-launched nuclear missiles? What happened to M.A.D.?
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Touché) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:49AM (6 children)
Hey, ho! Really?
UK has exactly 4 ballistic missile submarines, each one can carry up to 16 Trident II D5 Missiles [wikipedia.org] - 4 x 16 = 64 missiles
As of Dec 2016, those submarines are still running on Windows XP [mspoweruser.com] - i.e. the security of the control software depends on those who serve on board of those submarines: how loyal they are and how well they are paid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Funny) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:02PM (3 children)
> the security of the control software
C'mon, that's not just air gapped, that's a fricking km of water gapped
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:07PM (2 children)
From an internal Eve? I doubt it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @04:22PM (1 child)
I don't see how a better OS would hinder someone who's fine with their country getting nuked from, say, cutting the wires.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @04:29PM
Right, I forgot about the generalized $5-wrench attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 14 2018, @03:43PM
If they had said "100+ warheads" they would've been accurate. MIRVs don'tchaknow.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 15 2018, @04:18AM
Those four subs work on rotation so not all are active at same time
(Score: 2) by jimtheowl on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:01AM
That does not mean much anymore. Rex Tillerson was just fired, most likely for standing up to Russia on the topic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:44AM
Russia still has a substantial nuclear force, its military is well-equipped, and they have about 1,013,000 active troops and 2,500,000 in reserve.
Still have 10 ballistic missile submarines vs 4 for Royal Navy [wikipedia.org]
As for territorial invasion to topple the regime - not gonna happen. Both Napoleon and Hitler tried.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:50AM (2 children)
Where do you get your weird fantasies from. Almost noone in the uK wants to be able to carry a gun in the UK. Out of the thousands of Brits that I've known, the only one I've ever know who isn't perfectly happy with things as that are is a gun instructor (and inspector, he decides who gets the licenses in his county, and I can assure he'd not pass the vast majority of US gun owners for psychological reasons) who now has to jump through absurd hoops to get his guns from the gun club to the competition range, but even he doesn't want to be able to carry a gun on a everyday thing.
You need to face facts - the US is the only country in the world that thinks they're living in the wild west. Stop projecting your anachronistic worldview on others.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:18PM (1 child)
I was responding to this statement:
And also the description of the UK as a "police state".
AC clearly doesn't see things the way the Brits do.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:17PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:21AM (11 children)
That they could. But don't get too big a hard on for the Russians there, Ivan. That course of action wouldn't do the former USSR (or any of us) much good. The UK could lay waste [wikipedia.org] to every Russian city [wikipedia.org] of 150,000 or larger.
Given that you're so worried about the UK being an enemy, perhaps you should update your bomb shelter, as they could do the same to the US as well. Maybe you can get some bulk pricing on MREs?
Oh, not concerned about nuclear exchanges? Well, guess what? In a conventional conflict, the North Atlantic Treaty [wikipedia.org] (you knoe, the one that created NATO) requites that the US (and Canada and pretty much all of western Europe) come to the UK's aid.
Is Russia's 'Belgian shephard' big enough to stand up to that pack of dogs?
The ignorance of my fellow Americans never ceases (although I'm not sure why at this point) to amaze me.
HEY! EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD! NOT EVERY AMERICAN IS AS IGNORANT AND PROVINCIAL AS THE AC TO WHOM I'M REPLYING! SORRY ABOUT THAT!
tl;dr: Size is relative when you have ICBMs and a dozen or so of the most advanced military forces on the planet behind you, genius.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:08AM (10 children)
Dude, have you looked at the Russia's territory? NATO has 3,673,000 active military force [wikipedia.org]. Only Siberia has 13.1 million km2 - that makes 1 NATO military for every 3-something square kilometers.
Guess what? Russian have industrial cities in Siberia, shorter supply lines to there and, while not your ski vacation type of fun, they are better accustomed to those conditions. Napoleon and Hitler learned this the hard way.
At its peak, US had 100,000 people in Afghanistan with air and mechanized support and satellite intelligence, fighting against guerilla type of troops - small arms and IED. And you know the results.
Guess what will happen against a well prepared 1M+ army (with 2.5M in reserve), well adapted to the terrain, with military industrial level of support.
On top of that: they do have oil and gas reserves on their own and the EU states (the majority of NATO) don't - they still depend on... guess who? ... for their energy supply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:47AM (9 children)
Who exactly was advocating the invasion of Russia? It wasn't me. My point (which I thought was pretty obvious, but I guess not -- how many beers have you had so far today mate?) was that GP said:
Which is absurd on its face, for exactly the reasons I mention. GP clearly has little understanding of the UK's (and is apparently unaware of NATO, which just boggles my mind) military capabilities (not including their sizable nuclear arsenal).
Even more, no one would be interested in *occupying* Russia. In a major conflict, they'd just get thousands of bombs, cruise missiles and other long range munitions to bloody them pretty well. And western Europe, the US and Canada (as NATO members) would get their share too.
Central and eastern Europe would really take the pounding with ground troops. You're almost certainly too young to remember WWI, but crack a history book sometime. Nobody wants all that again. Especially once someone starts losing badly -- then they'll break out the tactical nukes and, well, I'll let you finish that story for yourself.
And the UK has plenty of resources to draw on that would make Russia think three or four times before *considering* starting a shooting war with Britain, and once they started considering it, they'd reject it out of hand. Because it would be just as big a disaster for Russia as for everyone else.
Given that the UK is a democracy, it's unlikely in the extreme that it would go to war over this (or any provocation short of a military attack on it or a NATO ally). What's most likely to happen is that a bunch of Russian diplomats will be expelled and the UK will make lots of noise and heavily scrutinize any visas coming out of Russia or its neighbors.
I suppose that some could consider the idea of a major war destroying Europe and killing millions to be an exciting prospect. To those folks, I suggest you get a hobby. Maybe needlepoint? Fishing? Frisbee Golf?
Given that you're usually pretty level-headed colo, I'm going to assume that you just haven't thought this through, or I'm sure you'd agree.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:00AM
s/WWI/WWII/
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:15AM (7 children)
How do exactly beat Russia without invading it? If you start using nukes, everybody is beaten, I hope that's not what you or the OP suggested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:49AM (3 children)
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @10:01AM
That's just crazy talk Raven. You stop that right now! No one would ever do something so stupid!
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @10:58AM (1 child)
I remember that a SAM is less expensive than a carrier and Russians are quite capable of downing such flying objects even from mobile stations (see MH17).
On the medium term, I think the attacker (with a corporatist MIC to feed) will get to pay more than the attacked, with little effect on the later.
Besides, the same resources were available in Afghanistan, didn't make much of a difference.
Other things to add to the borscht - remember Sakharov? - the EPFCG [wikipedia.org] are his invention - imagine how one of those 100MJ/256MA will play with a densely wired population area so dependent on electronics and communications. Even better if that population remain alive, an extra pressure on the number of mouths to feed with communications and health care system down (if NHS was stopped by a virus, imagine how it would work when all computers are smouldering). Perhaps is an advantage to be a second class economy and have a high geo dispersion in such times as a war?
Mother Of All Bombs? Meet the Father Of All Bombs [wikipedia.org] - lighter than MOAB, twice the punch punch.
Seems like US abandoned the development of anti-satellite laser weapons, but Russian may already have them [news.com.au]. Ooops.
My point? It is dangerous to play the "my father beats your father" games with Russia as one of the fathers, even in conventional wars.
This even assuming the Chinese don't get pissed off (by tariffs and annoyances in South China Sea) enough to join the brawl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday March 15 2018, @07:13PM
Yeah, it's maybe difficult to see where China would stand: neutral if possible? Join with Russia?
May be with who starts it all.
If Russia starts it, do they stay off? Join the 'allies' of NATO/EU?
NATO starts it, they join Russia?
Could be interesting...but scary as feck!
Computer says 'no'!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @10:12AM (2 children)
That statement assumes that the UK has an interest in
1. Changing the Russian government through violent means;
2. Occupying Russia and forcibly suppressing the government and population, or
3. inflicting enough damage on Russia that it collapses.
But I rather think the UK wants the Russian government to stop sending folks over to the UK to murder its immigrant residents. Which is, of course, a completely unreasonable demand.
While I'm sure that 1, 2 or 3 above would likely achieve that, I have a sneaking suspicion that *slightly* less destructive means might be both effective and much less disruptive for us all.
I know. I know. I'm living in a fantasy land. The only way to get anyone to do anything, EVER is to threaten their existence and if they don't come around, completely destroy them. No one has *ever* done something else, so why should we start now?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:18AM
Me too.
However the rhetoric emanating from the Brexiters doesn't sound conducive to a minimum disruption solution. Fortunately, Putin seems like a cold calculated bastard - scale the lesson to preserving Russia's (or his) interest and not a bit further**.
** CIA agitated the underground for a Ukraine joining NATO (in spite of Reagan promising a no NATO expansion back when he and Gorby were friends)? Russia made sure it still get the exit to Black Sea and (implicitly) into the Mediterranean and made sure there's a buffer between Russia and NATO (Moldova and Belarus - puppets of Russia - since the '90, East Ukraine more recently - not under their formal control, but good enough for a buffer zone).
All of this in a cold, efficient and ruthless manner, without banging the shoe on a table or with grandiose gestures a la Trump/May
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Wednesday March 14 2018, @04:29PM
Yes, actually it is.
Before you make such a demand you need to be able to prove they did it, for starters. So far it seems to be simply an assumption.
Second, you'd need clean hands. That's a deeply problematic road for the UK to try and tread.
What they really want is for Russia to return to the docil, submissive stance that she abandoned after Libya. Which Russia has quite firmly decided will not happen.
"While I'm sure that 1, 2 or 3 above would likely achieve that, I have a sneaking suspicion that *slightly* less destructive means might be both effective and much less disruptive for us all."
What do you think is going to happen, a few cruise missiles, a few air strikes, Russia surrenders? Putin agrees to step down and appoint your pick in his place? The Duma and the Russian people in general just shrug and accept that?
"I know. I know. I'm living in a fantasy land. "
That's what it sounds like to me.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by r1348 on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:35PM
We really had no doubts you were an American, with all that pulling out gun control, which, I remind you, it's not even considered a political issue in Europe.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:29PM (27 children)
Never threaten what you can't follow through with.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:44PM (11 children)
Translation = they'll fight back using harsh language
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Funny) by bob_super on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:49PM (9 children)
The Rack, and the Comfy Chair !
Fear, Surprise, Rutheless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to WW2 victories.
Nobody expects the English Retaliation!
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:56AM (8 children)
Don't forget the nice cup of tea!
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:07AM (7 children)
Ooh, and biscuits?
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:40AM (6 children)
Yes, too early for crumpets.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:13AM (5 children)
Never too late for fresh scones with cream and jam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Wednesday March 14 2018, @07:42AM (3 children)
Which is on top, jam or cream?
(That's how we identify foreign agents.)
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:16AM (2 children)
Or immigrants.
I prefer cream on top, the jam is thicker and stick better to the scone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:50AM (1 child)
Sounds like you're a native of Cornwall [thespruce.com].
I'm a heathen that dislikes cream, and prefers just the jam.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:47PM
I'm a native in one of the former communist east european countries.
Currently having Vegemite on toast for breakfast and lamb chops on barbie at 40C at Christmas.
I actually see little reason to eat scones when I can have a rump stake for the same price of two scones and a tea. And little reason to have tea when I can have the cheap(ish) fortified piss they call Victoria Bitter 'round here.
But dreaming as I was to my future V8 ute to load with slabs of beer and let the dog scramble on top [buzzfeed.com] (just for the fun of it [wordpress.com]), I forgot to add the </sarcasm> tag to my "Never too late for fresh scones with cream and jam." - sorry for that, maàit'!
(grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:50PM
That's all we are: yesterday's jam!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:21AM
OMG boys, duck! They've revived Maggie Thatcher and she will give Mr Putin a tongue lashing the likes of which he has not experienced since 3rd grade under Ms Lomichenkova.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:45PM (6 children)
You can do better than that. Never threaten. Notice the period - there is never a good time to make threats. If your child needs his fingers slapped, just slap those fingers. If someone needs to die, just kill him. If Russia needs to be nuked, just nuke Russia. Never, ever threaten anyone, at any time, for any reason. Threats are just bluster. That bluster gives the enemy warning to prepare for your attack.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:54PM (2 children)
I tough that Trump threat to north Korea were pragmatic, as a Canadian I hate the Trump man but I think that you read him well in your post about pragmatism. Yet you says never threaten period....
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:49AM (1 child)
The pragmatism post was posted because I thought it was interesting, not so much because I entirely agree with it.
As for threatening: Have you ever watched a fight between two boys or young men develop? He insults, he responds with a threat, a stronger threat is made, more and more bluster, until finally, one or the other of the fools involved feels compelled to take a swing, or a kick, or whatever. Spectators and participants to the fight all know that neither party REALLY wants a fight, they are both scared. The bluster helps to build up courage. The participants are trying to cover up their fear of each other.
For my part, if I know that action is required, I prefer to take a shortcut, and act. There's no point in talking about it, until everyone is tired of talk. Just "git 'er done", and it's finished, then you can move on to more interesting things.
I suppose that perspective is related to the fact that I am far less of a social animal than most people.
Want a sea story to go with that? As a young man, fresh aboard ship, I was promoted to third class. Another, slightly older sailor, who was a Viet Vet resented the fact that I had won a promotion, and tried to make my life miserable. So, Bill is harassing me just a couple weeks after my "crow" was "tacked on"* and I decided that Bill was going to have to be dealt with, one way or another. We exchanged a single round of insults - and I nailed him. Didn't manage to "deck" him, bastard was tougher than he looked, and I also just missed his nose. Within about 45 seconds, onlookers had grabbed both of us, and stopped the fight.
Bill came to me later, and apologized. His entire problem centered around the fact that he was a Viet veteran, and I was not - he thought I was a candy ass, or a pussy. Apparently, he decided that if I were ready and willing to attack a war veteran, then maybe I wasn't a pussy after all.
TBH, I never thought I could beat Bill, and I wasn't sure that I could make a decent showing against him in a fight. The whole thing, from my point of view, was that if I was going to get my ass beat, I might as well just get it over. No point in trying to avoid a fight that was going to happen anyway. Where do you hide aboard a little destroyer, anyway?
* The Navy has a tradition, where your peers "tack on" your new insignia with a punch. The "crow" is hammered into your upper arm repeatedly the first couple days you wear it. The first few punches don't amount to much, but the next fifty tend to make the bruises last for quite awhile. Alas - the tradition seems to have died off. In fact, from what I hear, the Navy is doing away with rank and rating insignia.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:10AM
The USAF was still tacking on insignia in the mid to late 2000s, but seemed to be declining. My last promotion was in 2007, and I was hit a lot less than my promotion in 2006. I was only an E-5, so folks higher on the chain than me were in good supply. I got out in 2010, so I can't say whether or not they are doing it at all anymore. A lot can happen in 8 years. I'm not big on traditions and rituals, so I could care less either way. What drove me out was the BS and a lack of focus on training. I'll spare the details, as this is off topic as it is.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:38AM (1 child)
My kids just needed the count: "That's one!"
It rarely got past that and never past two, lol.
"Mr. Putin, that's ONE!"
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Arik on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:05AM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @06:47AM
I don't know... I think I trust better the wisdom of speak softly and carry a big stick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Interesting) by zocalo on Tuesday March 13 2018, @11:48PM (6 children)
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Gaaark on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:44AM (4 children)
Yeah, you gotta hope they've really thought this through before Boris started talking.
Wonder if Putin has food tasters.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @03:01AM (3 children)
I remember watching a series about important chefs. One episode was about the French boss working in the Kremlin kitchens. There were tasters and extra security, specially for Putin's table. Part of the staff and furniture was "modern", but others were clearly from Cold War era.
Found the exact one http://www.programme.tv/chef-des-chefs-34765087/ [programme.tv] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNDCFlc0Ses [youtube.com] Around 11:00 to see Ludmilla at work. Around 20:00 for carts being packed to go to a secret room.
The poison would need to be of the very slow kind.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:08AM
Like dimethylmercury. [wikipedia.org]
Unfortunately, no-one knows how it tastes like (the odour is described as 'sweet but deadly at the concentration that one can smell').
In any case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:21AM (1 child)
There are slow kinds. But maybe someone would be clever enough make a "binary poison" e.g. one where you need to take two different compounds within X hours to be affected.
But anyway why are they so sure the Russians did it? Even the CIA might do it just to make the Russians look bad.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:53PM
Watching the hysterics in the media over it, I'm tempted to believe Russia.
The whole thing reeks of bullshit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @03:26AM
Or maybe the best way to get in on those trade deals is to do something to bloody Russia's nose.
It would fit the Narrative we're being fed about omg Russia, and wouldn't it make Americans feel important to be the white knight riding in to protect an ally?
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:23PM
Russia was unlikely to back down. So we expect that UK has a plan. Let's hope it isn't WWIII; and US staff changes aren't indicative of US backing out of some agreement.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:28AM (16 children)
Have the UK government absolutely ruled out other players? Skirpal was a known associate of Christopher Steele who has ties to Fusion GPS, an allegedly Soros funded organization [dailycaller.com] with a history of trying to frame Russia.
(Score: 4, Funny) by stretch611 on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:36AM (2 children)
You are absolutely right... Hillary Clinton is to blame. She killed/attempted to kill these former Russian spies so that they would not reveal her ties to the Russian government. /s
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:46AM
Nah dude, Hillary is too busy. [pinimg.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:23AM
And it all ties in to "57" and the Heinz Tomato Sauce Plot to rule the world. ;)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @12:55AM (10 children)
You're holding the razor wrong. You might even cut yourself.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @01:03AM (9 children)
Well fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice...
At what point do we stop believing a single thing our politicians say?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:20AM (4 children)
In 1972 (was it '72?) when Nixon said "I am not a crook." So, 45+ years ago.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @03:37AM (3 children)
"I am not a crook." [youtube.com] Says November 17, 1973.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:06AM (2 children)
5 Alien Races in Contact with Earth Right Now [youtube.com]
Couldn't you have at least used something more reputable, like The Onion? Geez Louise!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @11:59AM (1 child)
The Trumpists, the Putinists, the Ergodanists … who are the other two? :-)
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @04:30PM
> The Trumpists, the Putinists, the Ergodanists … who are the other two? :-)
The Clintonians, and the Cardassi-- I mean, the Kardashians.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @02:46AM
Besides, the co-inventor of the stuff is in the US (working at Rutgers in NJ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vil_Mirzayanov [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday March 14 2018, @05:56AM (2 children)
Or stop believing any single thing an anonymous coward posts.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts"- --Daniel Patrick Moynihan--
(Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:45AM (1 child)
This is also true.
Christopher Steele wasn't just an associate, [zerohedge.com] he reportedly led the investigation [independent.co.uk] into the incident which occurred near Porton Down. [wikipedia.org]
Occams Razor [wikipedia.org] means not making outlandish assumptions. One should not assume foul play by a foreign power when motive and method exist closer to home.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @10:16AM
Occam's Razor tells me that ikf it comes from Zerohedge, it's likely a steaming pile of bullshit.
You might as well quote InfoWars or Rush "pill me baby!" Limbaugh. Hell, pull out some old Dilbert cartoons, they'd probably be more accurate..
Sigh.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by janrinok on Wednesday March 14 2018, @09:10AM (1 child)
And how many of these other players have access to Novichok? And, if they do, where did they get if from? It is a chemical nerve agent manufactured only in Russia. It is still not licensed to others because the Russians believe it is capable of defeating some of the west's chemical defences. They have, until now, protected it well. The reason they want to see how the UK has identified it is to learn just how much the UK knows about it, because that might indicate how our chemical defences are being upgraded.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 14 2018, @08:01PM
I've read it's a family of Soviet era nerve agents that can be manufactured using off the shelf phosphates. I read elsewhere this week that Syrian forces discovered a stockpile of chemical weapons after capturing a militant base. [cnbc.com]