from the probably-should-have-researched-this-better dept.
The World Socialist Web Site reports
[...] a former student of Anglia Ruskin University [...] is suing the UK institution for breach of contract and fraudulent misrepresentation.
[...] Graduate Pok Wong is claiming £60,000 compensation--her estimated cost of her university education--on the basis that her degree did not offer the "quality education and prospect of employment after graduation" claimed by the university.
This suit demonstrates the corrosive consequences of students being encouraged to view themselves as consumers entering into contracts with universities for economic advantage. The collective endeavour of learning is replaced by a purely financial and adversarial relationship between two parties, in which each is incentivised to push the other for maximum "cost efficiency".
In comments to the Sunday Telegraph, Wong explained her hopes that the case would "set a precedent so that students can get value for money, and if they don't they get compensated".
Her comments accept the principles of marketised education and attempt to leverage them for individual students' self-interest.
[...] Wong refers in her legal papers to Anglia Ruskin's claim to carry out "world-leading research". In fact, the university is ranked in the 301st-350th bracket for quality of research by Times Higher Education. A number of other institutions have promoted themselves with similar lies or distortions.
Last November, the Advertising Standards Authority watchdog ordered seven universities to change false claims about their status made in advertisements to students. The University of Strathclyde, for example, was told to change its claim, "We're ranked No. 1 in the UK" for physics. Teesside University had to stop calling itself the "Top university in England for long-term graduate prospects".
[...] in 2013, [...] replies to freedom of information requests at 70 universities found that [...] Anglia Ruskin was listed as one of a number of institutions, particularly newer ones, whose spending [on marketing themselves] skyrocketed in these years. It spent £1.76 million in 2012-13, about £1 million more than in 2010-11.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @05:51PM (20 children)
So, entrance exams and background checks?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @06:09PM (19 children)
I can't say I have anything against this lawsuit. I believe it has merit. If you claim you will give the student a magical piece of paper that will get them employment to recoup the insane tuition fees, you better deliver.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @06:21PM (8 children)
No, the purpose of a college degree is to show you can think. If you think it is about money, the college failed. So she both should, and should not receive a refund. Yes, she failed to learn to think, but no, it is not necessarily the University's fault. Retro-active recension of degrees (flunking), without refund, is appropriate in a case like this.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @07:20PM (4 children)
Really? Two words, "gender studies" and I rest my case.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @07:46PM
If you can't appreciate, or don't want to know about, or don't enjoy the other gender, then you are missing out on some of the sweetest things in life.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday March 19 2018, @08:43PM (2 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @11:56PM (1 child)
No, its wong, not wrong. Wong thinking degree equals top job 5 seconds after graduation. Sorry dear millennial asian, several years of hard slog might bring you success, and success is never guaranteed in life.
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:11PM
Truer words have not been spoken, at least to this precious snowflake brought up on participation trophies and in an era of no competition allowed. Welcome to the real world 'honey' You can do everything correctly and still lose. Now that isn't to say that for profit education isn't a scam and film studies degrees or women studies degrees would ever get you a job.
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 5, Touché) by arslan on Monday March 19 2018, @11:29PM (1 child)
Not if they didn't advertise as such. I see colleges advertisements all the time saying folks should sign up with them to get the degree that will give them employment opportunities. I say its fair play if they can't deliver on that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @11:55PM
Yeah. We had a series of stories [soylentnews.org] about places that made bogus claims about job placement for their graduates.
The Education Department (before DeVos) came down on them like a ton of bricks.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 20 2018, @12:27AM
Sure, the lawsuit is silly. But taking someone's degree away is not something a school should ever do under the circumstances. I think the only situation it should apply is fraud or corruption where it becomes clear that the degree holder didn't acquire their degree in a legal manner. But even that can be gamed by those who are willing to produce fake evidence.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by canopic jug on Monday March 19 2018, @06:35PM (7 children)
I believe it has merit.
I strongly disagree. There is no merit. That is because there's no possible way she could have missed all the signs that she was enrolled in a business "degree". It was probably right there on her application from day 0. Even if she missed the paperwork warning her of her chosen major, she would have definitely had few years to notice the mickeymouse, content-free nature of the courses themselves.
If one wants to get all philosophical she has finally learned (or should have learned) several important business lessons that otherwise escape most people and probably most of her classmates: caveat emptor, a fool and her money are soon parted, it's hard to cheat an honest person, and there's one born every minute.
What I'd like to see is an after action report from the dot-com era and crash. I bet there is more than enough data to show an inverse relationship between business "degrees" and value to a profitable business. Sort of like how aeron chairs were similarly a stupidity barometer [archive.org] then, too.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Monday March 19 2018, @07:48PM
Especially in the UK, where you are offered a place to study for a specific degree. Not a place at the university, but a place in a specific department, for a specific course of study (there will be options on courses of course, but all courses will be aimed at a that specific degree).
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @09:42PM
> That is because there's no possible way she could have missed all the signs that she was enrolled in a business "degree".
Well, there is at least one other possibility. The student could have worked hard (by her lights) and gotten all A's. I can believe that someone from the right sort of sheltered environment could be fooled into thinking that this was a good education.
And then been really pissed when discovering that the U was a sham to begin with, and that this particular degree/diploma wasn't worth the paper it came on.
Plenty of room for fault with both parties to this case.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Monday March 19 2018, @11:28PM (2 children)
I don't believe in letting advertisers off with a defense of they should have known we were lying. If she had any mis-understandings, it was exactly what the school intended for her to mis-understand. She took them at their word and they didn't deliver. Why should they profit from that?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by canopic jug on Tuesday March 20 2018, @05:26AM (1 child)
I don't believe in letting advertisers off with a defense of they should have known we were lying. If she had any mis-understandings, it was exactly what the school intended for her to mis-understand. She took them at their word and they didn't deliver. Why should they profit from that?
I agree but that is a separate matter. The university should definitely not profit from that misbehavior and the other accreditited institutions nearby should band together to re-assess its accreditation, in an ideal world. Universities are supposed to adhere as closely as possible to empirical facts and stay away from trends except for the purpose of analysis and evaluation. However, I'll admit that view has become wishful thinking, if it were ever true for many departments at many institutions. Critical thought and analysis is skipped in many institutions, efforts fought against bringing it in/back, and in a growing number it is hunted down and rubbed out. That applies to most parts of the world. Though in the EU, some of the major causes are known: Bologna Process [europa.eu].
Both she and the institution that ripped her off are in the wrong.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday March 24 2018, @07:59PM
Nevertheless, she was ripped-off and so should be compensated. I don't see how that is a separate issue. The measures you wrote about would prevent future rip-offs, but don't address the current ones.
It's up to the courts to determine what fraction of the value claimed was actually given to the student in exchange for the tuition. That fraction was probably neither 0 or 100%.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @12:13AM (1 child)
Sometimes, you sound like English isn't your first language.
(Eastern European? Russian?)
"Had few years" would likely be interpreted as "had only a few years".
ISTM you were going for "had a few years", where "few" could be interpreted as "several".
The 2 constructions are polar opposites and your syntax leaves it in some doubt.
For a cinematic example, I'm reminded of Robin Williams' character in "Moscow on the Hudson" where he refers to Duke Ellington's (more likely, Billy Strayhorn's) "Take the A Train" as "Take a Train".
...then again, it could simply be that your brain works faster than your fingers.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by canopic jug on Tuesday March 20 2018, @05:32AM
The 2 constructions are polar opposites and your syntax leaves it in some doubt.
In that instance I'll blame both poor proofreading and these new-style low-quality keyboards that click but don't trigger. It's definitely hardware related, not just wetware, and quite common these days. I'm seeing that kind of miss a lot on some lists and forums.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by arcz on Tuesday March 20 2018, @12:44AM (1 child)
Agree 100%. Greedy academics are at it again.
Academics say university is about learning, but if it's about learning then why can't we have our money back? It's all about learning for students and teaching for professors right? ;)
Actually no, professors and academics are greedy pieces of shit most of the time. Truth is, if the university fails to deliver, it should be held legally and financially. I would love to be able to get a refund for the bad classes I've taken. Nothing against the good professors, but 80% aren't worth thier salt.
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:17PM
Unless you go to an NCAA heavily slanted school; in which case the time spent is about playing sports and the university is 'about' making a buck off the back of an academic athlete.
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 3, Interesting) by khallow on Monday March 19 2018, @06:14PM (2 children)
Indeed. Far be it for a university to provide anything useful to a student, especially for an inconsequential sum of 60k pounds and years of their life.
According to Wikipedia, the university has around 23k students in the UK (according to this almost report [anglia.ac.uk] almost 40k students with about 17k being overseas). So that's less than 100 pounds, marketing per student. Not seeing the big deal with it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @05:29PM (1 child)
Why do you wish to divvy the costs per student? It's not like it's composed of xeroxing pieces of paper or some other such antiquated activity that would justify doing so.
Also strange evaluation: 60k is a lot but 1.76M is not...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 20 2018, @06:29PM
Because that is the smart thing to do. Else it's just a number with no context. That's a lot of money for a 20 student college, and small amount of money for a 20+k student college.
60k pounds per student versus less than 100 pounds per. That's almost three orders of magnitude difference.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Monday March 19 2018, @06:32PM (7 children)
A guy in the UK tried this.
It was involving Oxford or Cambridge I think. He tried to sue saying that his degree wasn't as good as it should have been because of the quality of education. If I remember correctly, he may have been a law student.
He of course failed, embarrassingly, in a court of law to prove his case. Specifically, how did his classmates pass?
But he too made the "it will affect my future career" claim. Not half as much as unsuccessfully suing your university for you doing crap on your course, mate...
(Score: 3, Informative) by zocalo on Monday March 19 2018, @07:07PM (5 children)
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:54AM (2 children)
Sounds pretty unrelated to me. I'm assuming from context that "didn't get a first" is something akin to "didn't graduate with honors" or similar - which frankly is the *expected* outcome. If many/most people graduated with honors, they would have basically no value. Unless the university gave him good reason to believe he would get such things going in, it's a baseless complaint - oh boo hoo, I wasn't given the honors that my record clearly shows I didn't earn. News flash - paying tuition doesn't magically get you a premium degree - if it did, the degree wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.
The basis of this case seems completely different - Wong claims the university fraudulently misrepresented the value of a degree from their university, which is a legitimate complaint. Frankly, I'd like to see a LOT of universities dragged through the coals over that - seems like just about all of them paint a MUCH rosier picture of the financial value of their degree than a sound statistical analysis of alumni outcomes would justify, and I can't think of any reason why false advertising should be tolerated any more for universities than it is for any other product.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Tuesday March 20 2018, @08:14AM (1 child)
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday March 20 2018, @06:27PM
That would be the question though, wouldn't it? She's not accusing them of not giving her a good enough degree, she's accusing them of overselling the value of the degree in the first place. IF they are indeed overselling the financial value of a degree from their institution, or especially the value of a buggy-whip manufacturing degree, then she has a good case. Of course, her specific results don't really matter to that accusation - you'd have to do a statistical analysis and see if graduates from the university are in fact, in general, performing as well as the university portrays.
The difference is that (as I recall) he accused his university of not giving him the gold-plated special bonus degree that he didn't earn, and thus hurting specifically his prospects. And it's a pretty fair bet that that those honors ARE in fact worth something - I'd be willing to bet that a statistical analysis would show as much. But they are valuable specifically BECAUSE they have to be earned through exceptional performance, and aren't given out just because you managed to eventually pass all the required classes.
(Score: 2) by FakeBeldin on Tuesday March 20 2018, @10:05AM
I just had to look up where the lawyer he hired graduated from. (Newcastle upon Tyne, in case you're wondering).
<kidding>
Well, he should've hired a better lawyer - but I guess we can attribute that oversight to his tenuous grasp on the legal complexities of this, or, for that matter, any other situation.
</kidding>
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @12:13PM
30 years ago, as a fresh graduate, I went to a job interview with a large, dull, nameless UK insurance company.
They were also disappointed that I had a 2.1 - they preferred candidates who had 2.2's, because (and I quote) 'it shows they lived a little at university'.
So, kids, always look both ways when crossing the road - you never know which direction the idiot is going to come at you from.
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:21PM
I read where an entire law class at Harvard law declared bankruptcy and de-faulted on their enormous college loans, but I can't find the story to cite anymore. They probably litigated it of the interwebs...
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Monday March 19 2018, @07:37PM (8 children)
Education is about giving people the ability to understand the world around them generally, and more specific knowledge about one or a few aspects of the world. And to give them the opportunity (should they desire it) to broaden their horizons, helping them become better informed and better equipped to deal with our increasingly complex world.
Contrary to what Bryan Caplan argues [c-span.org] in his book, The Case Against Education [princeton.edu], education is not *just* about getting a job and maximizing economic benefit. Because, as Heinlein put it in a somewhat different context, that:
We are more than just cogs in the economic machine, and we deserve to have the opportunity to be more than that. I do agree with Caplan in one respect: not everyone needs to (or should be) be college educated. In the US, we've mostly abandoned vocational training and apprenticeships. We should move back to that model, while maintaining our university systems for those who would prosper in those areas.
This would require a pretty severe shift in the cost structures of the university systems, but I think we'd all benefit.
However, claiming that education is just a means to getting a job is disingenuous and limits the value of education. That said, schools often oversell that sort of thing and don't really promote the love of learning (and this starts in primary school, sadly).
As Ralph Waldo Emerson, quite correctly, pointed out:
Creating an environment where learning is valued, vaunted and a positive experience, starting in primary schools, would be a good start.
As for Ms. Wong, unless there was some sort of contract between her and the college guaranteeing a certain level of employment, I'm not sure she has a legal leg to stand upon.
Schools *can* provide quality education -- however, you get out of it what you put in. It doesn't matter if you go to Oxford or Stanford or if you go to East Bumfuck Community College. You get out what you put in. Full stop.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0, Troll) by cocaine overdose on Monday March 19 2018, @08:22PM
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @08:32PM (1 child)
As a general statement I'll agree with what you said. Not sure how these transitions would work in practice, but in the abstract they are good.
I just wanted to reply to comment...
This isn't exactly true. I'd say that you'd get out *no more* than what you put in. However, it's very possible you'll get out less than you put in. If you pour your heart and soul into East Bumfuck Community College in Underwater Basket Weaving... well, don't be surprised if you end up with poor career prospects despite how much you put in to it.
It's sad, but true, that the top 1% of a no-name university (maybe even the 2nd best student) will probably face higher challenges in entering the working world than the 50% percentile student of a school like MIT or Stanford.
I don't really think that's fair... but I also don't really think it's a false statement, either.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 19 2018, @09:01PM
A reasonable and generally true assessment, as far as it goes. However, it's orthogonal to my point.
I did not say that in terms of economic advancement or opportunities for networking, it doesn't matter where you go to school.
I did say that in terms of *getting an education* it doesn't really matter, as you get out of it what you put in to it.
There's a key difference between those two statements.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: -1, Troll) by i286NiNJA on Monday March 19 2018, @10:04PM (3 children)
Horseshit.
An old man like you has no place saying what should be. You ruined the world and now expect us youngsters to follow ideals suitable for the times you grew up in and wasted.
It's a savage concrete jungle now old man you don't waste time fucking around lest you and all your descendents end up at the wrong end of the economic split.
I'm sure if you write a beautiful letter to your grandchildren, explaining how you've become a man and you can cook a meal and skin your dick and do your taxes by yourself on the long form --Heinlen... well they'll understand why they had to be born into the slave caste.
Nothing kills me more than the lazy advice of the entitled generation.
(Score: 5, Touché) by NotSanguine on Monday March 19 2018, @11:40PM (1 child)
That's adorable!
Did you write that all by yourself? I'm so proud of you.
I find it especially cute that you blame me for your own misfortunes. What's more, I think you're oh so sweet for assuming that I've been entitled or otherwise had advantages over *anyone*.
Have you ever been homeless? Forced to shoplift and dumpster dive just to eat?
Have you ever had to sleep in parks or train stations because you had nowhere else to go?
Have you ever battled drug problems?
I've dealt with all three. And I clawed my way back up from *less* than nothing.
Just to clarify, I've *never* been the recipient of any form of public assistance. Can you say the same?
Don't like how your life is going? That's on you, not on me.
Don't like the way the world works? Do you do anything (besides blaming other people) to make things better?
I'm sorry that you're so angry. I'm sorry that your life has turned you into such a bitter person.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to lash out at others because you're unhappy.
But none of those things are my fault. Go ahead and feel free to blame me if it makes you feel better.
Sadly, it won't improve your life. But if it gives your pathetic existence a small respite from your feelings of failure and worthlessness, who am I to take that away from you?
I hope your life improves and you begin to understand what it is to be human. You have my pity and sympathy, friend.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Thursday March 22 2018, @04:09PM
So you grew up during the best times in America and you still struggled? Yeah please keep quoting Heinlein.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:19AM
go cry in your beer. [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Tuesday March 20 2018, @02:32AM
I think it was Thomas Sowell who once said, "College is where you learn more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing." In the case of Ms. Wong, I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 3, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday March 19 2018, @08:01PM
At The Telegraph [telegraph.co.uk], cited by TFA, may be paywalled. At The Independent [independent.co.uk], where it also states she was disruptive at her graduation ceremony.
This isn't just about "the education," but also what the "prospectus" for the program stated and whether it lived up to alleged promises. (And equally could be a graduate looking for a free lunch).
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @08:05PM (1 child)
And it took her until after graduation to find out the actual ranking? Isn't this something you research before enrolling into an academic program that costs tens of thousands of dollars/pounds/euros and years of your life? I wouldn't choose which cheese to buy by looking at PR blurbs listed on packaging.
Perhaps the university should be fined for misleading advertising, but "world-leading research" and similar marketing statements are so nebulous I doubt there's anything actionable there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @05:33AM
If they make claims like a consumer organization then they should be held accountable for bad ads like a consumer organization. Walk, quack, and shit like a duck: get sued like a duck.
If it's blatant enough, a jury may conclude it's excessive. For example, if one ranking service scores it in the top three research institutions but the other 15 score it average, then the jury may conclude the brochure did some heavy cherry-picking.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @10:33PM (4 children)
3.75 GPA
Bachelor of Science, Computer Science
Master of Science, Mathematics
145 IQ
Unemployable
Dude, where's my six figure tech job??
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 19 2018, @11:48PM
"The World owes me!"
You clearly aren't a Socialist.
You have absolutely no understanding of the term.
You are a leech.
You sound like the "welfare queen" that Reagan claimed existed in such abundance.
A Socialist would say "You appear to also be quite skilled at what you do. Would you like to join with me in forming a worker-owned cooperative?"
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by tftp on Tuesday March 20 2018, @03:09AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @12:16PM (1 child)
I'd keep anonymous about the IQ. Mine is 164, and the first thing that anyone expresses surprise about is that someone with an IQ that high can actually wipe their own arse or tie their own shoelaces.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 20 2018, @10:24PM
Michael David Crawford, I know it's you.