from the too-risky-to-keep-running-the-dept-generating dept.
In response to the passage of the Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA), Craigslist has removed Personals sections for U.S. users:
Classified advertising website Craigslist has closed its dating ads section in the US, in response to a new bill against sex trafficking.
The bill states that websites can now be punished for "facilitating" prostitution and sex trafficking.
Ads promoting prostitution and child sexual abuse have previously been posted in the "personals" section of Craigslist.
The company said keeping the section open in the US was too much of a risk.
In a statement, Craigslist said the new law would "subject websites to criminal and civil liability when third parties (users) misuse online personals unlawfully".
Reddit also took the opportunity to ban a number of subreddits (list not exhaustive), including some like /r/escorts, but many more broadly related to "transactions for goods and services".
Also at Ars Technica and The Verge.
Related Stories
In Passing SESTA/FOSTA, Lawmakers Failed to Separate Their Good Intentions from Bad Law
The U.S. Senate just voted 97-2 to pass the Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA, H.R. 1865), a bill that silences online speech by forcing Internet platforms to censor their users. As lobbyists and members of Congress applaud themselves for enacting a law tackling the problem of trafficking, let's be clear: Congress just made trafficking victims less safe, not more.
The version of FOSTA that just passed the Senate combined an earlier version of FOSTA (what we call FOSTA 2.0) with the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act (SESTA, S. 1693). The history of SESTA/FOSTA—a bad bill that turned into a worse bill and then was rushed through votes in both houses of Congress—is a story about Congress' failure to see that its good intentions can result in bad law. It's a story of Congress' failure to listen to the constituents who'd be most affected by the laws it passed. It's also the story of some players in the tech sector choosing to settle for compromises and half-wins that will put ordinary people in danger.
[...] Throughout the SESTA/FOSTA debate, the bills' proponents provided little to no evidence that increased platform liability would do anything to reduce trafficking. On the other hand, the bills' opponents have presented a great deal of evidence that shutting down platforms where sexual services are advertised exposes trafficking victims to more danger.
Freedom Network USA—the largest national network of organizations working to reduce trafficking in their communities—spoke out early to express grave concerns [.pdf] that removing sexual ads from the Internet would also remove the best chance trafficking victims had of being found and helped by organizations like theirs as well as law enforcement agencies.
Notorious website backpage.com has been seized according to NY Daily News.
Sex ads platform Backpage.com was seized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation Friday hours after its founder's Phoenix home was raided.
Visitors to the site landed on a notice from the federal government announcing its seizure.
"Backpage.com and affiliated websites have been seized as part of an enforcement action by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, and the Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation Division, with analytical assistance from the Joint Regional Intelligence Center," the announcement read.
Founder's home also raided by the FBI Friday morning.
U.S. Government Seizes backpage.com
The FBI, Justice Department, and other agencies have seized backpage.com, and one of the co-founders had their home raided:
A sex worker review website has blocked U.S. users in anticipation of the Stop Enabling Sex-Trafficking Act (SESTA) coming into effect. U.S.-based users can still access it with a VPN, while all visitors are asked to "not access TER from a Prohibited Country":
A website that hosts customer reviews of sex workers has started blocking Internet users in the United States because of forthcoming changes in US law. Congress recently passed the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act bill (SESTA), and President Trump is expected to sign it into law. SESTA will make it easier to prosecute websites that host third-party content that promotes or facilitates prostitution, even in cases when the sex workers aren't victims of trafficking.
After Congress approved the bill, Craigslist removed its "Personals" section and Reddit removed some sex-related subreddits. The Erotic Review (TER) has followed suit by blocking any user who appears to be visiting the website from the United States. "As a result of this new law, TER has made the difficult decision to block access to the website from the United States until such time as the courts have enjoined enforcement of the law, the law has been repealed or amended, or TER has found a way to sufficiently address any legal concerns created by the new law," the website's home page says in a notice to anyone who accesses the site from a US location.
[...] SESTA was inspired largely by the existence of Backpage. But federal law enforcement authorities were able to shut Backpage down last week, even though SESTA hasn't been signed into law yet. Trump may sign the bill this week. [...] Some sex workers have spoken out against SESTA, saying that websites can help sex workers screen clients and avoid dangerous situations. A group called Survivors Against SESTA says the new law "will cause harm to vulnerable populations engaging in the sex trade without helping trafficking victims."
Previously: U.S. Congress Passes SESTA/FOSTA Law
Craigslist Removes Personals Sections in the U.S.
FBI Seizes backpage.com and Affiliates
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:09AM
The room appeared to be a luxurious office. An expensive-looking desk and chair sat in the center of the room. There was a man sitting in the chair, typing away on the computer. The man's name was Peterson, and he was an employee at this facility.
"Hmmm... Now, who am I with today? Oh, that one! Excellent! Hehe!" Peterson said, as he giggled like a child.
The truth was that Peterson thoroughly enjoyed his job; it was like a dream to him. Peterson had somehow stumbled upon this secretive place at just the right time, and was hired immediately after a long discussion with the owner. Indeed, there probably weren't any other jobs that matched Peterson's preferences so closely. The man remembered that it was almost time to work, and got up and left the room.
Peterson walked down an empty, silent hallway until he saw a room labeled "E12". He unlocked the door and entered. Every surface on the inside of the room was padded, and no furnature was present. A small boy was sitting in the corner of the room, sobbing uncontrollably. Seeing the boy's wretched state made Peterson grin. It was time to begin.
Violation. The boy squealed. Peterson could not help but think that the boy's reactions have dulled, and so it was almost time to discard it. Company policy stated that resources aren't to be thrown away until they were completely broken, so Peterson simply had to enjoy the last few scraps of entertainment the boy could offer. Suddenly, a vomit-inducing snapping sound was heard.
"Oh! Looks like I got a bit too excited. We'll need a replacement for this one." Peterson muttered while wearing a revolting smile. Although it would have been better to prolong the boy's motion a bit longer, small errors like this were within acceptable range. Peterson made sure to discard the corpse into a trash can before heading to his next assigned location.
A classroom. There were hard chairs with desks attached to them neatly arranged in rows and columns. Children - both girls and boys - sat at the desks, their eyes gazing at an image on the wall created by a projector. No, it would be more correct to say that they were forced to gaze: Their eyelids were forcibly held open with various instruments, and their bodies were tightly bound to the chairs.
The projector displayed a slideshow featuring pictures of all the magnanimous employees at the facility. Childish music played as the slideshow displayed picture after picture, and an out-of-place recording repeatedly asked the children who their favorite was. The children were screaming, and the creepy-looking men watching them were grinning. Oh, yes, they grinned. And the more they grinned, the more garbage the facility output.
One day, the men became more playful than usual; nothing remained after that but silence. It was time to harvest more resources.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:11AM (47 children)
A society founded around the protection of the rights of the individual, chief of which are the rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Someone should sue the government for fraudulent advertising.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:33AM
But then they showed me my browser history and told me what would happen if I pressed it any further.
I got off with a dozen unpaid parking citations and a 1 point speeding ticket I was able to take online driver school for. Also they had me audited by the IRS.
#fictionalbutprobablytruestory
(Score: 5, Informative) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:44AM (45 children)
"Land of the Free" has always been a Big Lie. The US has *never* been the "land of the free". Just ask any black person who had an ancestor in slavery between the founding and 1865. Then after that, ask any black person who had an ancestor who lived through the Jim Crow era. Also ask any Native American who had an ancestor who was forcibly relocated in the Trail of Tears incident. Or ask anyone of Japanese ancestry who was or had a relative interned in a concentration camp in WWII. Or ask anyone who got blacklisted in J. Edgar Hoover's witch hunt against communists. Finally, ask anyone today who's had legal trouble because they wanted to smoke a particular naturally-growing plant which is highly illegal, rather than another naturally-growing plant which is far more addictive yet perfectly legal.
That "freedom" claim is total bullshit; the only truth about it is that, on average, Americans are freer today than they ever have been, and things are, overall, getting better for freedom (though this isn't across the board; some things are getting better, while other things are getting worse. And of course, at various points in history, certain privileged groups of people probably enjoyed more freedom.).
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:50AM (17 children)
Don't forget forced sterilizations. The US has some dark dark shit.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:27AM (16 children)
Indeed, Planned Parenthood was founded by a woman whose major interest was reducing the population of the "undesirables", such as black people.
the leftist/progressive agenda has always been anti-Human; it's always been about crafting a "new" Man, who is better, stronger, smarter, and more noble.
Such a philosophy should be rejected; the only proper foundation for a functional society (let alone a Free society) is capitalism—voluntary interaction between individuals.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:41AM (14 children)
Your hat is either too tight, or too loose.
Controlled reproduction helps people out of poverty.
You use the term "progressive" to mean something it doesn't.
You attibute outcomes to unrelated policies, AND you think a contract can be enforced by ... a contract, without any.. compulsion. (Do you find yourself amazed when people rip you off, or just wish they'd signed a contract with you, or is there some reason you can be ripped off by someone when you have a contract? What is wrong with contracts that they don't work now, without arbitration, courts and lawyers?)
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:52AM (13 children)
A contract necessarily specifies the means of enforcement; such enforcement is therefore, by definition, voluntary—the parties to the contract agreed to such enforcement in advance.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:59AM (12 children)
And what happens when the bigger/larger/better armed party decides to.. ignore the contract?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:12AM (11 children)
I don't understand why you think you've got a better solution.
Basically, you're exhibiting Stockholm Syndrome.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:22AM (9 children)
People in dispute go to court, where judges make decisions, which are enforced with fines, which are themselves suppored by impounding or garnishee orders, which are enforced by sherrifs of the court, also with threats of imprisonment.
No contract, on its own, can support that infrastructure, especially when one party opts-out of a contract.
I didn't suggest a "better" solution, neither did you. Pointing out that "government", in this case, works, seems to confuse you.
It is up to you to explain how contracts without enforcement would work.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:24AM (8 children)
Why do you keep with this straw man? It's already been explained to you.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:29AM (7 children)
No, you have repeatedly claimed that all contacts can self-support, through whatever arbitration is written in the contract.
What you haven't explained is what happens when one party, say, with its own army, refuses to pay/deliver on their side of the contract.
What is the person who didn't get their stuff to do? "Use the contract" to give paper cuts?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:32AM (6 children)
What is your point? Are you saying that a possible failure of the agreed system implies that we should just say "Fuck it. Let's government."???
You are saying that your government-based society is the failure mode of my contractual society. You exist in failure.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:45AM (5 children)
Every contract has "failure clauses", usually called "disputes"
These specify how the parties will resolve any disagreements.
Yes, government is the "failure" mode support, just like error traps in code.
You still have not specified how disputes would be resolved, when that is what government, judiciary, etc *does*.
There has to be a failure mode, because humans are sneaky, lying bastards, especially when they think they can get away with it, and corporations ar even worse.
If you can write bug-free code, it will still crash eventually. Perfect contracts can still be ignored.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @08:06AM (1 child)
Government doesn't solve this problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @03:59PM
Government does solve this problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:12PM (1 child)
have you not heard of smart contracts?
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:55PM
Will we need smart guns that only operate when a smart contract says they can?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:48PM
I prefer to imagine that this is just a troll trying to collect internet trophies, in this case getting every user of the site to argue against the stupidity of "series of contracts". The troll coooould be serious, but given the simplistic responses it is clear there is no real reasoning beyond blind faith in "market forces".
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:24PM
You are pointing at a real problem, but so is the grandparent, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
There is always the problem of the enforcement agency deciding to act in it's own behalf rather than in yours. Always. Historically what happens without a central government is lots of small war lords who, if they stabilize, turn into monarchs. In some ways this isn't any worse than the current structure, and in others it's considerably worse. I think the rule was something like one king out of four will be a good king, one king out of four will lead us into disastrous wars, one king out of four will be a playboy, and one king out of four will be an idiot. The benefit is that the bureaucracy tends to be minimized. A secondary benefit is that most of the kings don't want to control your private life. Democracies tend to be much more intrusive. But this can also mean they aren't really interested in enforcing your contracts. This is one of the reasons that police were a late development. Another, of course, is that without rapid transportation and sanitation large cities are inherent death-traps. (Every continuation of this I tried veered into only tangentially related topics. Society is a complex lattice of interconnections.)
But contract enforcement always depends on someone with superior power doing the enforcement. It can be the government, it can be the gang lord, but somebody. Back when personal honor was the excuse is was general social knowledge, but in an age of information overload even extreme dishonor tends to be ignored for the sake of convenience. And it may also depend on limited mobility. In the 1800's US West it was always the outsider who sold fake goods or acted as a confidence man, but in a city with lots of mobility and good communications, how do you recognize the outsider? The old enforcement mechanisms don't work.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:57AM
You're one of those simple-minded fucks who has been brainwashed by reading "Atlas Shrugged", and concluding it was some sort of primer for society ;
that is painfully obvious.
Fortunately for the rest of us, you are not in a position to affect any policy that matters, and you never will be, because you're too stupid.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:23AM (11 children)
I don't know that you can blame the U.S. for continuing mankind's depraved history.
As stated, the first legally recognized slave owner in the colonies that would become the United States was a black man from Angola, Anthony Johnson; naturally, he had been enslaved by a rival tribe in Africa, and then sold to White Men as an indentured servant (much like how the Irish got to the Americas). Well, knowing about slavery rather than contractual, limited servitude, Mr. Johnson made sure that some of his servants had actually signed an agreement that they were SLAVES, which was ultimately upheld by a common law court.
So, what's my point? Well, you can't blame the U.S. for continuing an ancient tradition. If anything, you have to give credit to the U.S. and to White Men in particular for not only coming to the slave trade late, but also for ending the slave trade the world over (even going so far as to wage war with other White Men over the issue).
Same goes for the Injuns. They were conquered just as other people had been conquered in times past. Nevertheless, these days, they enjoy not only the freedoms that White Men have brought to the world, but special privileges in recognition of their past mistreatment.
So, fuck all of you.
Long live Uncle Sam. He's an asshole, but He's the best thing that ever happened to this fucking planet.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:49AM (10 children)
You absolutely can, because you can choose not to continue evil practices.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:50AM (7 children)
Despite the horrors perpetrated in American history, the U.S. still looks like a saint.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:10AM (5 children)
X being better than Y does not mean that X is good.
And no, that's not what the US did; for a long time, it had slavery. The US could have chosen not to have slavery at all, but it didn't.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:25AM (4 children)
Slavery was already widespread by the time the United States was formed.
The "infamous" text of the Constitution equating a black slave to 2/3 a person was in fact an attempt to diminish the role of slavery in the Union: It diminished the influence that slaveholding States had on the Federal government.
That's what you mush-for-brains FUCKERS don't get. EVER. The United States was an ideal born in a world that was even WORSE than today.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:06AM (3 children)
Having slavery at all, in any form, is unacceptable, regardless of the circumstances. It doesn't matter how bad the world was.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:29AM (1 child)
... with regard to slavery, but much better with regard to so much more. THEN, America fixed the slavery issue; then, America fixed the segregation issue.
At all stages, the fault belonged to this one particular organization of violent Men, known as "government".
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:42PM
Do remember that the US was one of the LAST of the European dominated countries to prohibit slavery. I believe that at one point the only two European dominated countries to allow slavery were the US and Brazil. Of course, Russia had the Kulaks, but that's supposedly a step up from slavery, and Russia isn't exactly a part of the European civilization, despite being nominally a part of Europe. (Since I'm including the US on cultural grounds, I can exclude Russia on exactly those same grounds.)
That said, the US has been generally the most moral "world power" in history. And before them the British were the most moral "world power" in history. And before them the Catholic Church were the most moral "world power" in history. And before them the Romans were the most moral "world power" in history.
In each case you can point out horrendous flaws. None of them really lived up to their stated ideals. All of them were eventually wrecked by their flaws. The real times of trouble, though, are the times of transition between the "world powers". This is especially troubling now when the US is failing, China is rising, and weapons of mass destruction are so potent. This is one of they reasons I hope for a quick appearance of a strong AI. I give a 50% chance that humanity won't live through that transition, but I give a 60% chance that humanity won't live the transition of power between the US and China....and we'll eventually have to handle the transition to strong AI anyway.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:15PM
"having" slavery? your freedom is your responsibility. there is no higher authority to plead your case to. you can be delusional and plead to the government, but they are the most powerful slave master, so good luck with that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @03:47PM
And Jack the Ripper was a good guy because he's responsible for vastly less deaths than Hitler, right?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 27 2018, @01:26PM
Which the U.S. has done, relatively quickly as compared to most of history.
We can do better. We will always be able to do better. I want us to do better, faster than we are, but all in all, progress from 1776 to the present has been impressively fast as compared to 5000BC-1700.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:52PM
You mean how the US has done?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:48AM (3 children)
Yeah. Most other countries have racism but the USA was one of the few that had it enshrined by their laws and ordinances.
You can't call it the land of the free when blacks like Rosa Parks couldn't even sit freely in her bus seat and she was already in a colored section seat!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:58AM (1 child)
The problem was, as always, Government.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @09:11AM
No, it wasn't. It was racist crackers, and Dick Spender of the Alt-right. That was, and is, the problem.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:32AM
That sort of persecution is codified among them, as well as Israel, China, India, and many other countries the world over.
Some of them are more overt about it, others more covert, but it is there nonetheless.
That said, slavery in the colonies/US was in fact pushback against people wanting fair labor practices for indentured servants, who were supposed to pay out of their contracts over a period of time, but whose 'debtors' often found creative ways to increase their debt or reduce their wages so they could effectively never get out. Slavery as an American insitution was pushback over fixes to the indentured servitude laws leading to both non-Christian native americans as well as africans being enslaved. AFAIK the only people who were initially excluded were christians because it went against their interpretation of the bible.
My point with this is slavery just gave way to company towns and unfair labor practices in factories, then undocumented immigrants in the modern era. Soon enough it will pass to the non-independently wealth, and anyone who can't steal/defraud their way into the management class will find themselves toiling in exactly the sort of slavelike conditions each of these former groups have endured, maybe with less whipping, or less of their debt owned by a single party, but no more able to freely change jobs or locations than their forebearers were due to the power imbalance between the 'owners' and the 'working class'. Gee.
Ironically enough the same problem exists in all the so-called 'communist' countries, none of which are except in their spats with the 'capitalist pigs' in order to keep the underrepresented hating each other across their borders when they should really be banding together as the teeming mass of peasants against the kings, queens, oligarchs and merchant princes who lord the means of subsistence above them, dragging the bar ever higher as they keep more of the pie to themselves while the rest struggle or perish.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:21AM (6 children)
And yet you provide no support for your argument. "Land of the Free" doesn't mean perfect freedom.
Just ask anyone whose ancestors were refugees from the religious persecution of the 17th or 18th Centuries, refugees from the wars of the 18th and 19th Centuries, or economic immigrants from any period of time. There were tens of millions of people for whom the US happened to mean a better, freer life than what they had.
Just ask anyone who was under the thumb of Fascism or Communism, but isn't any more due to the US.
At least three of the last four presidents of the US committed drug-related crime, they just didn't caught. And given the holdout is Trump, it's probably four. I think that bit of phony morality theater is on its way out the door.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:14AM (5 children)
No country can claim to be "the land of the free" and yet conduct unconstitutional democracy-destroying surveillance on the populace. Nor can such a country have organizations like the TSA, forbid people from using certain drugs, routinely have police steal from people and call it "asset forfeiture", have free speech zones, fight unconstitutional wars overseas, etc. Any country that does any of those things is not merely 'not perfect' but bad. No amount of 'not as bad as' fallacies (Example: "Well, at least the US isn't as bad as North Korea!") will change that. Well, actually, they can claim it, but they'll just be wrong.
Don't be satisfied with merely being better when the standards are so ridiculously low. We need a truly free society, and we're not there yet.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 27 2018, @02:40PM (4 children)
"Bad" is a pretty flat label. So how bad is "bad". Is the US just like the bad countries that kill millions of their own citizens? Are we going to have any sense of proportion or is it just an excuse for some whataboutism?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:55PM (1 child)
Well, it's commonly asserted that the US has the largest percentage of it's population in prison of any country, and I've never heard that denied. And many of those imprisoned are essentially enslaved, forced to work at jobs that pay so little that most would prefer to avoid them. The pay is essentially a false-front to pretend that it's employment rather than slave labor.
So you could say that there's an awful lot of enslavement going on. And the slave labor is used to fatten the wallet of private manufacturers. It's not teaching skills that could be used to get a job afterwards, which was the original justification. And it seems to me (I'd need to check, and I don't feel like bothering) that rather than increasing with inflation the daily wage was actually cut during the recent periods of high inflation. It certainly didn't increase. That the slaves aren't officially owned by private individuals merely means that the private individuals have no reason to care for them when they are aged and infirm. I'm not even sure that their working conditions are inspected for safety, and don't think I'd trust an official report that said it was, considering some of the working conditions that are approved of for non-enslaved labor.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @12:10AM
The USA does have one of the largest prison populations percentage, mostly due to drug 'crime'. Slave/forced labor is specifically legal by the USA constitution so long as its considered a form of punishment for a crime. There's no reason to argue around if it's slavery or not, slavery is legal under these conditions. Most people ignore it because it'll never happen to them, "out of sight, out of mind", and because criminals aren't allowed to vote. The labor fattens the government and prisons, not private companies. Sometimes companies have complained because they can't compete on price. That and because the prisoners would revolt if they didn't get anything is why they're paid anything at all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:09PM (1 child)
It is called honesty. By pretty much any moral ruler the US is terrible. The whataboutism is coming from YOU genius... "But whatabout North Korea and China who kill millions of their own citizens?" lololol
Do you TRY to be so self defeating?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:54PM
I'd use the other word, dishonesty. So where on this ruler, do you have marked the spots for tens of millions of immigrants' lives improved and made freer? Where on this ruler, is the spot for Europe not turning into a Fascist/Communist cesspool? Where on that ruler is the spot for making seven billion peoples' lives better today through trade and the global economy (of which the US is a principle creator and maintainer)?
For example, if we don't lose a large part of the world's population to die-offs in the next century or two, it's going to be in large part to the efforts of the US today. If that isn't registering on your collection of moral rulers, then you need a new set of them.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Tuesday March 27 2018, @11:24AM
Africa is way better. True/false?
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday March 27 2018, @01:15PM
You're being too cynical. Freedom is not a Big Lie, it is an ideal we strive for, and don't always, perhaps only seldom reach.
Freedom can also be a tough call. When more freedom for one party means less freedom for another, how do you sort that one out? We have decided that freedom does not include the "freedom" to enslave another or own slaves, or to monopolize a market and price gouge. or steal. We're still arguing over lying. Misrepresenting a product is in principle not acceptable though frequently done, but saying "no" to "does this dress make me look fat?" is still acceptable and perhaps always should be, even when it's not true. But we're not lying about freedom, not merely full of talk and propaganda about it, not intentionally trying to deceive the world (they wouldn't be fooled anyway), or even ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @03:55PM
No, the slogan is absolutely correct: The land is owned by those who are free. It doesn't say that everyone in that land is free.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:56PM
You misunderstood the moto. It always has been truly the land for those who were free, while those who were not free were screwed!
#departmentofuselesstautologies
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:15AM (16 children)
Back in the 90s, I used it to buy/sell used stuff, but not for a decade or so now. Seems only crazy wackos hang out there. You respond to a sell ad, the seller seems a weirdo retard, not actually interested in selling. You put out a sell ad, only crazy loonies with crazy loonball inquiries reply. Maybe the weirdo seller was that way because of all the wacko inquiries.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:18AM
There are also many bot listings that look identical to genuine ones.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:46AM (7 children)
WTF? I've sold tons of used stuff on CL in recent years, and in fact managed to sell a car there just yesterday. My experiences have overall been very positive.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:52AM (1 child)
I think it speaks more to what the AC is interested in. Probably 70% honey pot ads.
(Score: 3, Funny) by captain normal on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:06AM
Ok...that does make sense. I've only used CL for stuff, not trying to find sex or love. That just seems weird, looking to get laid on CL?
When life isn't going right, go left.
(Score: 3, Informative) by captain normal on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:59AM (1 child)
I'll second that. I've sold and brought stuff on CL for years. There are scammers that post/respond to ads on CL, but you can usually tell just by the posts and the odd replies to your ad.
When life isn't going right, go left.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 27 2018, @01:23PM
If you bother to contact, there will be an ensuing scam involving deposit of funds or cashier's check... the actual worthlesness of cashier's checks was one of the big disillusionments of my childhood - people actually trusted those things for decades, but they never were really trustable (though in the old days they may have been a little harder to forge...)
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:49AM
I ended up buying my Diesel van from a Craigslist listing. My own personal feeling is we both got what we wanted.
Personally, I think Craigslist is a great place to put up stuff you think maybe one of your neighbors ( including in neighboring cities ) might want, but you really don't want to ship the thing - you'd rather him simply come pick it up. With communications what they are today, its so easy to phone ahead, and you have the object right out in the front yard for your customer's inspection, and if its what he wants, fine, swap some money and the guy loads it in his car and gone. Both people happy.
But sex services, no. I admit looking at them. Just looked far too risky. Fishing for suckers. But then, I consider damn near all "personals" in that light.
You start dealing with people like that, the wrong one can screw you over far worse than a bad car deal will.
If worse had come to worse, it would have cost me about $4K.
That's peanuts compared to what getting involved with the wrong people could cost me.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @04:22PM (1 child)
yep. bought my last two cars from CL. much better than a dealership if you know various automotive stuffs.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday March 28 2018, @04:50AM
Dealership... you don't know anything at all about the car's history, all you know is the dealer probably bought it at auction. Why it was at auction is anybody's guess, but very few of the reasons are favorable to you.
Dealerships have very finely tuned presentation skills. They can polish a turd to a lustrous shine. That car will look like it just came off the showroom. However the big money is in the engine, transmission, and electrical gremlins. Why do you think everyone seems so pissed at used car dealers? They are like house flippers... beautiful re-stucco and paint, shrubbery neatly trimmed, hot buns in the oven... and when you move in, you discover there is significant problems in the foundation, the plumbing is badly corroded, and there is hidden damage from a leaky roof.
And I know good and well the used car market is flooded with machines that look beautiful, but may have been submerged in floodwater or involved with personal vendetta problems.
As far as I am concerned, CL is the ideal place to buy/sell a vehicle. Just be honest and fair. Most people are.
Understand the other person is likely distrustful. They have good reason to be.
I was afraid to carry cash, and insisted the cash transfer take place in the bank. He was afraid of title transfer trickery, he wanted it done at AAA. He was also afraid I might involve the van in an accident before transfer, but he would drive - ok, I countered by having him take the van to my mechanic for going over. That was acceptable, no brick and mortar businessman there for fifty years is gonna stoop to CL chicanery. Little by little we worked around each other's concerns. Then went to AAA for preparation of title transfer papers, then to USBank, when he got his cash and signed the DMV papers and handed them to me, right in front of their security camera - both of us looking right into the lens so just in case either of us was pulling a fast one, the bank had the evidence of the deal, - then to Mercury Insurance, where I assumed liability in his presence, then I drove him back to AAA to submit the signed papers, then drove him home, then I had my "new" van.
Anyway, this is how my CL deal went down, just in case anyone else wonders how complicated a CL deal is, or how to protect yourself from common fraud. I knew good and well I did not want to be carrying cash, and he knew good and well someone might well try to steal his van right in front of him. If either I or he was intolerant of each other's concerns, fraud would be very likely. You can usually tell when someone is trying to pull a fast one... they will get all bent out of shape about changing anything.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:04AM (1 child)
My experiences on Craigslist, both buying and selling, have been overwhelmingly positive.
You do need to exercise judgement and a willingness to "filter" people out before they waste your time. I use at least one phone call to do this. You can in a few minutes determine whether you're dealing with a flake or not. A few flakes might slip by, but most of them will be obvious and you can tell them something along the lines of "I am pretty sure the item is sold, I will call you back if the sale doesn't go through" ; that ruse gets rid of them.
Make no mistake, there ARE a lot of flakes who will waste your time if you let them, but a bit of common sense can and will save you a lot of aggravation and / or time.
In any case, Craigslist has destroyed the newspaper classified section, so if you don't sell via Craigslist, unless you are willing to use eBay, it could be tough selling your stuff. There's plenty of good info on how best to make use of Craigslist, out there on the web. It is a bit of an art, but most people can grasp the essential concepts and get good results thereby.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by anubi on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:58AM
I think Craigslist is for my neighbors. They are expected to call if they want it, come by, pick it up, and pay in cash.
And EBAY is for the nation. I am expected to ship it. And take pre-arranged payment methods through third parties.
I've used both, and appreciate each ones strengths.
I would not put a used bicycle on EBAY, nor will I list a water pump for a 1938 Ford on Craigslist. The bicycle isn't worth the shipping fees, nor are any of my neighbors probably interested in the pump... but someone in the nation probably needs that exact pump badly.
No, I will definitely not miss the personals section going away. I have seen it... was not impressed. Looked like a quick way to get into more trouble than I care to deal with.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 27 2018, @01:16PM (4 children)
Depends on where you live, I guess. I've sold a few smaller things through CL (including a vinyl record collection) and even bought a $2500 car through a CL ad (plus in-person visit, test drive, etc.) a few years ago. The site itself feels creepy, but the actual people I've dealt with have been fine.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by zafiro17 on Tuesday March 27 2018, @05:20PM (3 children)
I've also had good luck with Craigslist, and been exposed to a handful of scammers. But they tell you how to deal with it right on their front page, or when you post something for sale. The number one rule is: deal in person with your buyer/seller. None of this escrow, money transfer via wire service, ship it postpaid, crap. Post your belongings, ask for a phone number from anyone who contacts you about it, go from there. I've had good experiences, and bought and sold some useful things. All the scammers reveal themselves immediately through their idiocy.
If Craigslist needs any single improvement, it's a button that lets you send the idiot spammer/scammer a small electric shock through their phone.
As for the end of sex personals - probably for the best and more trouble than it was worth. Guarantee you some other company will emerge this week, to take up the slack.
Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis - Jack Handey
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 27 2018, @07:26PM (2 children)
Yeah, I wouldn't even think about mailing/wiring payment (of any form) for something that _might_ be sent to me later by anybody on any anonymous message board....
As for the sex personals, seems like it would be easier for everybody involved if there were a major site or two or five where everybody knew where/what they were... doesn't have to be CL, but would be a lot easier to deal with known possibly lightly regulated entities rather than fly-by-nite operations. I know, the Puritan answer is that nobody has sex unless you are unfortunate enough to be bound in an irrevocable life bondage and anomalies such as Sarah Palin's daughter are to be denied/ignored/covered up as best as possible.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @12:40AM
Yeah, this is what I'm most concerned with (aside from incompetent and vengeful lawmakers). What are all those scammers going to do with their time now that they're not spending it on CL personals?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @05:05AM
CL does a great job doing what they do, so does EBAY, so does Tinder.
CL is not Iinder, nor is it EBAY.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @10:27PM
While i'm sure we are all against 'trafficking', just because some abuse their freedom does not mean you take it away from everyone else.
And what ever happened to the concept of "common carrier"?