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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:21AM   Printer-friendly
from the friend's-phone-was-not-a-lifeline dept.

Former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont was tracked by Spain through fitting his group's car with a surveillance device as well as following the mobile phones of his companions. He was eventually captured in Germany on his way to Belgium from Finland.

Spanish intelligence agents had been tracking the movements of the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont using the geolocation service on his friend's mobile phone before he was detained in Germany at the weekend, according to reports.

Puigdemont was detained under a European arrest warrant in the northern German province of Schleswig-Holstein on Sunday morning as he journeyed by car from Helsinki to Brussels, where he has been living in self-imposed exile since Catalonia's unilateral declaration of independence last October.

From The Guardian: Spanish spies 'tracked Carles Puigdemont via friend's phone'

An international warrant for Puigdemont's arrest had been rescinded back in December but was revived for this occasion. Already back in September, the Internet Society issued a statement about the Spanish government's great efforts to outright censor online activities promoting or discussing the bid for Catalonian independence.

See also earlier SN stories:
Spain Moves Forward With Plan to Suspend Catalonia's Autonomy
Police and Voters Clash During Catalan Independence Referendum
Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum


Original Submission

Related Stories

Politics: Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum 70 comments

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41191327

Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy says he will ask the courts to revoke a law passed by the Catalan regional government to hold a referendum on independence. He described the vote, planned for 1 October, as illegal.

Earlier, state prosecutors said they would bring criminal charges against Catalan leaders for their endorsement of the referendum.

The pro-independence majority in Catalonia's parliament passed the referendum law on Wednesday. Spain's wealthy north-eastern region already has autonomous powers but the regional government says it has popular support for full secession.

See also:


Original Submission

Politics: Police and Voters Clash During Catalan Independence Referendum 63 comments

Police and would-be voters have clashed during a Catalan independence referendum held on Sunday:

Scenes of chaos and violence unfolded in Catalonia as an independence referendum deemed illegal by Madrid devolved quickly on Sunday. As police followed orders from the central government to put a stop to the vote, they fired rubber bullets at unarmed protesters and smashed through the glass at polling places, reports The Associated Press. Three hundred and thirty-seven people were injured, some seriously, according to Catalonia's government spokesman.

Spain's Interior Ministry said a dozen police officers were injured. NPR's Lauren Frayer reports from Barcelona that some people were throwing rocks down at officers from balconies. Yet the violence came from all directions.

"Horrible scenes," Lauren reports. "Police dragging voters out of polling stations, some by the hair."

Scuffles erupted as riot police forcefully removed hundreds of would-be voters from polling places across Barcelona, the Catalan capitol, reports AP. Nevertheless, many people, managed to successfully cast their ballots across the region after waiting in lines hundreds-of-people-deep, including the elderly and families with small children, says Reuters.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said that he did not acknowledge the vote and called it "illegal".

Also at NYT, Bloomberg, The Washington Post, and BBC:

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

Update: Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'
Spain Vows to Enforce the Law in Rebel Catalonia
Catalonia Leaders Seek to Make Independence Referendum Binding

Previously: Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum


Original Submission

Politics: Spain Moves Forward With Plan to Suspend Catalonia's Autonomy 66 comments

After Catalonia's leader missed a deadline to clarify the government's stance on an independence referendum, and missed another deadline (Thursday calling for an unambiguous renouncement of the independence referendum, the Spanish government plans to strip Catalonia of its autonomous status:

Spain was preparing to impose direct rule over semi-autonomous Catalonia after the region's leader Carles Puigdemont declined to categorically renounce an independence referendum, the prime minister's office announced Thursday.

Spain's government said it would hold a special Cabinet meeting and "approve the measures that will be sent to the Senate to protect the general interest of all Spaniards."

At the Cabinet meeting, the government would invoke Article 155 of Spain's constitution allowing it to strip Catalonia of its self-governance. That would take effect on Saturday, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's office said in a statement.

Madrid had given Puigdemont a 10 a.m. (4 a.m. ET) deadline to clarify his government's stance on a non-binding declaration of independence passed by the regional legislature following a successful referendum on secession. But the Catalan leader insisted on keeping his options open, but that wasn't good enough for Spain's government, which had insisted on an unambiguous "no."

Bloomberg reports "Merkel and Macron Have Spain's Back as Catalan Crisis Escalates":

European Union leaders offered their support for Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy as he prepares to suspend the powers of the Catalan administration to clamp down on its push for independence. EU chiefs arriving for a summit in Brussels on Thursday said they backed Madrid and stressed that the issue of Catalonia's independence was a domestic one for Spain.

"We're looking at this very closely and support the position of the Spanish government, which is also a position that's been adopted across parties," said German Chancellor Angela Merkel. "Of course this preoccupies us, and we hope that there can be a resolution on the basis of the Spanish constitution." Asked whether he supported the Spanish government, French President Emmanuel Macron said "always," adding that "this summit will be marked by a message of unity of its members in regards to Spain."

Also at BBC, The Guardian, and EUObserver (opinion).

Previously: Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum
Police and Voters Clash During Catalan Independence Referendum


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:46AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:46AM (#659329)

    Let the bugger hang abrod. The douche lacked the conviction to stay in the land to stick up for the cause. You bring him back for trial, the disgusted Catalans may switch to sympathize the loser.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @07:16AM (40 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @07:16AM (#659383) Journal
    So when I read this story, the first thing I thought was "How did the Guardian learn of this?" After all, like most newspapers, the Guardian isn't renown for its independent, intelligence gathering capabilities. Someone has to tell.

    Sources in Spain’s National Intelligence Centre (CNI) told Spanish media outlets that the surveillance team had used the geolocation service on the mobile phone of at least one of Puigdemont’s companions to monitor his movements, as well as fitting a tracking device to the Renault Espace the group had been travelling in. Twelve CNI agents were involved in the operation.

    Not only do we have an over-the-top investigation and tactical silliness with surprise arrest warrants and whatnot, but we have some of the members of the agency in question bragging to the press about this - professionalism in action. Now, our prospective ne'er-do-wells will read the papers and think "Huh, I better have someone watch my car." or "Lose the cell phone." And other members of the European intelligence community will be thinking "Boy, I hope I never have to work with these cowboys."

    I don't have a dog in this race. But when I see how heavy-handed Spain is treating the original vote for independence and its perpetrators, I have to think "Who wouldn't want to leave?"

    • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:34AM (39 children)

      by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:34AM (#659406) Journal

      Maybe.. This *isn't* what happened.

      It sounds plausible. It seems possible...but ... Maybe there were other powers at work, and this is the cover story (those Spanish cowboys may even believe it is what happened)

      Or, the guy and his friends don't read spy books or movies, so have never heard of burner phones.

      Wonder if he even knew about the warrant?

      --
      "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:45AM (33 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:45AM (#659408) Journal
        Sounds like he didn't really care:

        Lluís Escolà, another off-duty Mossos officer who has been with Puigdemont since he fled to Belgium, claims he discovered the tracking device on the car two months ago and reported it to Belgian police.

        Escolà also claimed Puigdemont was aware that he was being tracked but thought he could still make it back to Brussels before he was detained.

        What's the worst that can happen? He gets political asylum in some other country. The best is that he gets great advertising during the trial as well as free room and board.

        • (Score: 2) by choose another one on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:32AM (32 children)

          by choose another one (515) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:32AM (#659429)

          > What's the worst that can happen? He gets political asylum in some other country. The best is that he gets great advertising during the trial as well as free room and board.

          Bingo.

          He avoids slightly negative publicity from having fled to freedom while some of his colleagues are still locked up, he raises the profile of the issue again (and there are new protests in catalonia as a result) and he makes the Spanish govt. look bad again.

          It is also going to force Germany to take more of a position on the issue, a bit of not-quite-support from Belgium is nothing, but if Germany decides not to send him back to Spain that would be a major boost. If they do send him back, he gets more power as a martyr figure.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:47AM (29 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:47AM (#659435)

            I recall the EU trying to steer clear of the Catalan independence issue last year, so the guy getting arrested in Germany kind of busts that plan.

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:07AM (28 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:07AM (#659438) Journal
              You have to admire how the EU makes each country's problems everybody's problems. Ok, maybe you don't.
              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday March 28 2018, @02:32PM (25 children)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @02:32PM (#659526) Journal

                It's not much different from someone having a warrant for his arrest issued in, say Florida, being arrested in Texas.

                The advantage for the EU is that crossing a border does not mean that you cannot be arrested and returned to the country that wants you for a crime.

                The offence has to be considered an offence in both countries, and there are certain crimes that are specifically excluded to provide protection for those that are being unfairly persecuted in the country that issues the EU Warrant. But he tried this avenue and had no luck.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:59PM (22 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:59PM (#659555) Journal
                  One thing though is that someone who flees to another US state can't claim political asylum or get it.
                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday March 28 2018, @05:35PM (21 children)

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @05:35PM (#659603) Journal
                    I would say that was a good thing. If someone is being unfairly persecuted in his own country, then why shouldn't he claim asylum in another? But if his 'persecution' is actually being sought for committing a crime (which the Spanish claim is the case,) then fleeing is not going to keep one from being brought to justice.
                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @06:09PM (20 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @06:09PM (#659612) Journal

                      If someone is being unfairly persecuted in his own country, then why shouldn't he claim asylum in another? But if his 'persecution' is actually being sought for committing a crime (which the Spanish claim is the case,) then fleeing is not going to keep one from being brought to justice.

                      A frequent way for governments to persecute is to accuse and convict people of committing crimes. Here, Mr. Puigdemont is being accused of "rebellion and sedition" with a potential sentence of 25 years.

                      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:57AM (19 children)

                        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:57AM (#659869) Journal

                        So he will have to answer to the courts and defend himself there. Would you suggest that we simply ignore all crimes if someone claims that they are being politically persecuted?

                        Regardless of how fair you or I might think he is being treated, if he broke Spanish law then he has to answer for his crime. If the courts find that he has not broken the law then he will be released. This is not a discussion on whether Spain needs to change its laws.

                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:00AM (18 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:00AM (#659881) Journal

                          Would you suggest that we simply ignore all crimes if someone claims that they are being politically persecuted?

                          That would be the approach I'd use with North Korea. And I'd use it here too. If they want rule of law, they should respect it first.

                          Regardless of how fair you or I might think he is being treated, if he broke Spanish law then he has to answer for his crime.

                          What crime?

                          This is not a discussion on whether Spain needs to change its laws.

                          But it is a discussion on whether Spain is using these arrest warrants as frivolous harassment.

                          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:59AM (17 children)

                            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:59AM (#659893) Journal

                            What crime?

                            "... wanted on charges of sedition, rebellion and misuse of public funds."

                            If you read the source, it has explained what the charges are.

                            If they want rule of law, they should respect it first.

                            Nothing that Spain has done has been illegal. It is a string of alleged offences that are covered by Spanish law. You may not like them, but then you don't live there. You wouldn't want other countries to say the same about the USA, for example, who still have capital punishment on their books, or hold people without fair trial in Guantanamo Bay.

                            I support Catalonia's bid for independence, but that doesn't mean that they can flout the laws under which they currently live.

                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 29 2018, @03:25PM (16 children)

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @03:25PM (#660003) Journal

                              Nothing that Spain has done has been illegal. It is a string of alleged offences that are covered by Spanish law.

                              And you are confident of this how?

                              I support Catalonia's bid for independence, but that doesn't mean that they can flout the laws under which they currently live.

                              What flouting has gone on? I didn't see any myself.

                              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:58PM (15 children)

                                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:58PM (#660134) Journal

                                Puigdemont fled the country when he became aware that the Spanish Government and Crown, to whom he had sworn allegiance, were looking into his affairs and his part in Catalonia 'declaring ' independence. That is pretty much 'flouting the law'. Imagine what would happen if people refused to acknowledge the laws that are in force in your own country.

                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 29 2018, @07:27PM (14 children)

                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @07:27PM (#660147) Journal

                                  Puigdemont fled the country when he became aware that the Spanish Government and Crown, to whom he had sworn allegiance, were looking into his affairs and his part in Catalonia 'declaring ' independence.

                                  And why were they looking into his affairs? What evidence of a crime was there? Spain has to have some version of probably cause. Once again, we go right back to my original observation that illegal persecution can take the form of phony accusations of committing a crime.

                                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday March 30 2018, @09:23AM (13 children)

                                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @09:23AM (#660319) Journal

                                    What evidence of a crime was there?

                                    Are you just being awkward now? He declared Catalonia an independent state within Spain, which is contrary to the oath he swore to both the King of Spain and the Spanish Government. When there was a backlash from the majority in Spain, they removed him from office under the charges outlined in my earlier post, and when they looked into the affairs of the Catalonian regional government they discovered that there had been some 'creative' accounting. He was subsequently charged with that offence too. Now he has to answer in court for his actions. He might be found not guilty and thus be acquitted on some or all charges, but fleeing the country does not look like the actions of a man who believes that his region should be independent and that he should be the leader of a new Catalonian state.

                                    I suspect that there has been far more media coverage here in Europe on this matter than there has been in the USA and elsewhere. I'm all for independence being achieved through legal and peaceful means, but trying to hide one's creative accounting by declaring independence, no matter how many in Catalonia voted for it, is not the correct way to go about it. Many Spanish business have their businesses and office there, and they want to be able to carry on their business in the rest of Spain and throughout Europe. Declaring independence would be a money grab by Catalonia without any means of those businesses being able to argue their cases, and the new state would not automatically be part of the EU. There would be significant limits on how Catalonia could trade outside its own region. Many thousands of jobs would be lost and many of Spain's major companies would suffer.

                                    The Spanish Constitution does outline a way that a state could gain independence, although it has never been tried in several hundred years, but Puigdemont did not follow that route because he knew that he would not be successful. Now he is required to justify his actions to the Spanish people in a court of law.

                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (12 children)

                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (#660389) Journal

                                      He declared Catalonia an independent state within Spain, which is contrary to the oath he swore to both the King of Spain and the Spanish Government.

                                      What was the crime? What you just described is not sedition and rebellion, which are the crimes he's accused of. And it is valid to break oaths when the other parties to the oath act in bad faith, say, such as is happening here.

                                      and when they looked into the affairs of the Catalonian regional government they discovered that there had been some 'creative' accounting.

                                      Then why wasn't that in the arrest warrant? Germany certainly has laws against embezzlement which would have made the extradition more likely to go in Spain's favor.

                                      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday March 30 2018, @04:53PM (11 children)

                                        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @04:53PM (#660435) Journal

                                        What was the crime?

                                        You are being argumentative. It is an offence under Spanish law to do what he did. I don't give a damn whether you like it or not - your opinion is totally irrelevant to the charges. It is not in the court of khallow that he has to argue his case, but in a Spanish court. And who said it was embezzlement? It was the misuse of funds described as 'creative accounting' - but we do not yet know any more than that. If he was using them for political gain to further his attempt to get independence for Catalonia then it might also be an offence, but it is not embezzlement. So stop trying to bring in another straw man argument. Lets just wait until this has run its course and then you can pontificate on facts rather than your own personal opinions based on what appears to be very limited knowledge of this case.

                                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 30 2018, @07:25PM (10 children)

                                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @07:25PM (#660486) Journal

                                          It is an offence under Spanish law to do what he did.

                                          Where's the evidence that such actions were a crime? Sorry, I don't buy that a nonbinding referendum and a toothless announcement by a regional legislature counts as sedition and rebellion. The resulting persecution is not evidence of a crime.

                                          And who said it was embezzlement? It was the misuse of funds described as 'creative accounting' - but we do not yet know any more than that.

                                          Spain's chief prosecutor did. From here [politico.eu], where the original charges were announced in late October [politico.eu] of last year:

                                          de los derechos de los ciudadanos y del interés público, ha interpuesto sendas querellas por delitos de rebelión, sedición, malversación y conexos

                                          My Spanish is terrible, but here, "malversación" means embezzlement.

                                          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday March 31 2018, @07:04AM (9 children)

                                            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @07:04AM (#660755) Journal

                                            Sorry, I don't buy that a nonbinding referendum and a toothless announcement by a regional legislature counts as sedition and rebellion

                                            Because you are an idiot. You don't have to buy it, as long as it is part of Spanish law then it is an offence in that country. And if, as you seem to believe, it is not a crime, then it will be thrown out of court. It is so simple that I would have thought you could have understood that. You are living in a dream world where you think that your views should be taken as applicable to the whole world. Guess what, your own version of what should be legal and what should not doesn't amount to much outside your own immediate area of influence.

                                            nonbinding referendum

                                            If it is a non-binding referendum then it cannot be used to declare independence. So his declaration of independence for Catalonia fails, by your own statement.

                                            sedition

                                            Definition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch. Now, declaring independence from the Government and rightful crown of Spain seems to fit into this definition, wouldn't you agree?

                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @07:52AM (5 children)

                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @07:52AM (#660767) Journal

                                              as long as it is part of Spanish law then it is an offence in that country.

                                              But is it? Just because you can come up with labels doesn't mean you have crimes. Rule of law should apply!

                                              If it is a non-binding referendum then it cannot be used to declare independence. So his declaration of independence for Catalonia fails, by your own statement.

                                              I don't recall saying that a non-binding referendum is a legal basis for such. But what of the declaration of independence? It's just as non-binding as the referendum. It's not sedition and rebellion either.

                                              So let's review what actually happened. The referendum and announcement of independence are merely protest theater. At this point, while plenty of stupid stuff has happened, nothing illegal has happened. No one is rebelling or any of that other stuff despite all the puffery about independence. There might be a case for embezzlement, though that seems pretty sketchy as well simply because these governments usually have broad latitude over what they can spend on. Even a non-binding, unrecognized referendum (funding of which seems the basis for the embezzlement charge) probably is legal to fund.

                                              The smart move would have been to give these characters rope with which to hang themselves (given how ham-handed the Catalan opposition has been, I think that might have worked beautifully). Either they will make a move towards rebellion and sedition (and something you can actually put people in jail for) or they'll continue with the pointless theater (and eventually run out of gas). Instead, the central government invoked a dubious clause of Spain's constitution, shuts down the legislature illegally, spreads thugs all over the place, and has been arresting opponent politicians on trumped up charges. They moved too fast and too heavy-handed, and screwed up the case.

                                              At this point, it's just straightforward illegal persecution. If I were in Germany's situation, I'd reject the arrest warrant outright and then warn Spain that if it continues to play such games, then Germany will stop honoring its arrest warrants altogether.

                                              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:13PM (4 children)

                                                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:13PM (#660822) Journal

                                                Rule of law should apply!

                                                I actually said "as long as it is part of Spanish law", which it is, then a crime has been committed. That is the rule of law in Spain you idiot!

                                                But what of the declaration of independence? It's just as non-binding as the referendum. It's not sedition and rebellion either.

                                                From the British point of view, the declaration of independence by the US was sedition and rebellion. That is why a war was fought. In this case the Catalonian regional assembly had already sworn to uphold the laws of Spain and accept the King has the head of state, so doing otherwise is sedition and rebellion.

                                                they will make a move towards rebellion and sedition

                                                They did make such a move by declaring Catalonia independent. Which is why all this happened.

                                                You are obviously arguing from a position of complete ignorance of the subject matter. Continuing this discussion is pointless.

                                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @04:57PM (3 children)

                                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @04:57PM (#660881) Journal

                                                  "as long as it is part of Spanish law"

                                                  And there we go. The problem here is that we have a giant circular argument here. The hubbub in question has been well-aired so we know the details of the crimes that Puigdemont is accused of. He didn't have a chance to rebel or commit sedition. Someone in the Spanish government merely has decreed that Spanish law has been broken because of some partisan grandstanding, shut everything down, and is now harassing political opponents with arrests. At that point, err with the accused.

                                                  From the British point of view, the declaration of independence by the US was sedition and rebellion.

                                                  So what? The UK of the time wasn't a democracy and rule of law was very tenuous. There were a number of powerful parties who could have declared sedition and rebellion on arbitrary weak members of society just because it was Thursday.

                                                  They did make such a move by declaring Catalonia independent. Which is why all this happened.

                                                  You are obviously arguing from a position of complete ignorance of the subject matter. Continuing this discussion is pointless.

                                                  And you're making a giant circular argument here arguing that this protest was rebellion and sedition because that is what you believe it is. Where again is the evidence that it was rebellion and sedition?

                                                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday March 31 2018, @05:23PM (2 children)

                                                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @05:23PM (#660891) Journal

                                                    Get back to me when the Spanish courts start taking your advice in preference to their own published laws. Until then, you remain an idiot. Your views do not matter in this case - Spanish law trumps your spurious beliefs.

                                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:11PM

                                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:11PM (#660909) Journal

                                                      Get back to me when the Spanish courts start taking your advice in preference to their own published laws.

                                                      You're still doing the circular argument thing. If the court was impartial, then you're gold. But we already know details of the cases in question. The accused never had a chance to break these laws. A non-binding referendum is not binding and an announcement of independence doesn't mean that they intend to engage in rebellion and sedition. The court sided with the government despite that. It's a bad call.

                                                      Keep in mind that there's a thin line of interpretation between protest, and the twin charges of sedition and rebellion. Let's go back to your example of the UK in the 18th Century. The UK routinely treated protest as sedition and rebellion. The Boston Tea Party (a protest where East Indian Company tea was tossed overboard before it could be used as a precedent for collecting taxes on tea) was described [american-revolutionary-war-facts.com] by the Governor of Massachusetts (a minion of the UK) as an act of "high treason". And if anyone had been caught for the crime, you can bet they wouldn't be punished for mere destruction of private property even though that is what they did.

                                                      Such very flexible and encompassing crimes are the standard go-to for tyrannical governments which wish to squash dissent.

                                                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:39PM

                                                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:39PM (#660919) Journal
                                                      I guess we'll have to do that agree to disagree thing. I think there's not much point to either of us continuing this.
                                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @08:04AM (2 children)

                                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @08:04AM (#660769) Journal

                                              Definition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch. Now, declaring independence from the Government and rightful crown of Spain seems to fit into this definition, wouldn't you agree?

                                              No, I wouldn't. It's that simple. Even with all that, you're not actually inciting people to rebel.

                                              Let us note the heavy-handed crackdown on the referendum and independence vote has done more to incite people to rebel than the declaration of independence did.

                                              • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:20PM (1 child)

                                                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:20PM (#660826) Journal

                                                Let us note

                                                Why 'us'? Are you suggesting that there are numerous others who hold this bizarre view that you are stating? The crackdown may well have been heavy-handed, but that doesn't mean that Spanish law wasn't broken by the actions taken by the Catalonian assembly.

                                                You may continue to live in your parallel universe. I choose to live in this one and, as a result, continuing this discussion is pointless.

                                                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @05:22PM

                                                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @05:22PM (#660890) Journal

                                                  but that doesn't mean that Spanish law wasn't broken by the actions taken by the Catalonian assembly.

                                                  Even so, breaking the law is not automatically a crime and that's making the generous assumption that a law actually was broken. Catalan was given broad authority to do things including running referendums and making declarations, even when those things have no actual impact.

                • (Score: 2) by tomtomtom on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:41PM (1 child)

                  by tomtomtom (340) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @08:41PM (#659671)

                  The EAW is quite different to international extradition treaties. It does not have a general requirement for double criminality [wikipedia.org], unlike almost all other extradition treaties (although for some categories of crime individual member states may require double criminality), and also does not contain an exemption for "political crimes".

                  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:54AM

                    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @06:54AM (#659868) Journal
                    Quite correct, I should have said international warrant - for which the safeguards that I claimed do exist.
              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:18PM (1 child)

                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:18PM (#659747)

                You have to admire how the EU makes each country's problems everybody's problems.

                That's the entire point of the EU. The alternative is the previous 1500 years of war.

                I wouldn't expect your particular brand of ignorant extreme right wing America first childishness to understand though.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:02AM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 29 2018, @08:02AM (#659882) Journal

                  That's the entire point of the EU. The alternative is the previous 1500 years of war.

                  Or the eventual dissolution of the EU. There are other possible (and IMHO more likely) outcomes when countries can't insulate themselves from the foibles of their neighbors. Brexit didn't happen in a vacuum.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @05:48PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @05:48PM (#659609)

            It is also going to force Germany to take more of a position on the issue, a bit of not-quite-support from Belgium is nothing, but if Germany decides not to send him back to Spain that would be a major boost.

            Germany doesn't take positions. It tries to takes the coward's way out of every difficult situation.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 29 2018, @02:47AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 29 2018, @02:47AM (#659828)

            It is also going to force Germany to take more of a position on the issue,

            Germany's position is already quite clear, the 'Fourth Reich', already looking a bit shaky with the British Brexit, cannot afford to allow any more vassal states to rebel against their central control, an example will be made of these Catalan rebels by the Reich's Spanish quisling puppets (just remember, Spain was a fascist dictatorship up to 1975) pour encourager les autres around Europe who might be harbouring similar dissident ideas..
            Of course, Germany will not be seen to be overtly interfering in what is, after all, purely an internal criminal matter of another EU member state..now, where were we, ah yes 'The branch on the linden is leafy and green, The Rhine gives it's gold to the sea...'

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by driverless on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:38AM (4 children)

        by driverless (4770) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:38AM (#659433)

        That was my feeling as well, parallel construction.

        The entire story is kind of a farce in any case. Spain issued an international arrest warrant, the sort of thing that's usually reserved for major organisde crime figures, terrorists, and the like, for someone who called for a referendum they found embarrassing. They were then unable to track down a guy who didn't go to overly great lengths to hide his whereabouts, he just left Spain because of the attitude of its government. Then this circus.

        I don't know whether it's more reminiscent of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition or Manuel from Fawlty Towers. It certainly doesn't do much more than make the Spanish government look like a bunch of clowns.

        • (Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:42AM

          by driverless (4770) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:42AM (#659434)

          However, the request was written in Spanish and there was a delay while authorities in Madrid had it translated into English. In the meantime, Puigdemont left the country.

          OK, it's definitely Fawlty Towers, not Monty Python. If it was Monty Python, his phone would have exploded because they'd confused him with Mr. E. R. Bradshaw of Napier Court, Black Lion Road.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:24AM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @11:24AM (#659448) Journal

          That was my feeling as well, parallel construction.

          Parallel construction for what? They have tracking devices on the car and were monitoring peoples' cell phones. How can it get juicier than that? Did a black ops assassinate him and now they're bringing the body double, sleeper agent back to safety? Did a Spanish extraterrestrial telepathic gestalt fool us all into believing that Catalan actually exists and they're now setting things up for their masterstroke, Operation Teapot [youtube.com]?

          The dude wasn't hiding. I can't imagine that there was anything that they could have gotten illegally, that they couldn't have gotten merely by hiring a detective or two, or maybe a few interns, if they're trying to save money.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by driverless on Wednesday March 28 2018, @12:01PM (1 child)

            by driverless (4770) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @12:01PM (#659454)

            That was my feeling as well, parallel construction.

            Parallel construction for what? They have tracking devices on the car and were monitoring peoples' cell phones.

            One of his colleagues turned him in and they're protecting this fact. Invent a magic technology explanation and presto.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:43PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:43PM (#659547) Journal

              One of his colleagues turned him in and they're protecting this fact.

              Ok, I buy that. I have no idea what they'd be turning him in for, but perhaps we'll find out.

  • (Score: 2) by Rich on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:28PM

    by Rich (945) on Wednesday March 28 2018, @03:28PM (#659544) Journal

    From how I read it (using the geolocation service on his friend's mobile phone), the location came not from cell towers, but from being trojaned. So the Germans apparently didn't assist there. But why they didn't attempt harder to screw up to detain the guy beats me.

    If they don't extradite him, they declare to the world that the EU is so divided in its values that it's not worth the paper of the European contracts anymore, and if they do, they declare to their local population that they shit on their constitution about that "political asylum" thing once the push comes to shove - because if any of the millions who have claimed it so far is - by the letters of the law - worth of it, it's that guy. And that decision is now up to some local judge...

    Any excuse would've done. Mandatory educational program for the responsible officer. Supervising an endangered toad crossing. Cleaning bird shit off the patrol car. Whatever. Germany now has "drawn the arse card", as the local saying goes.

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