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posted by martyb on Friday March 30 2018, @12:27PM   Printer-friendly
from the increasing-cost-of-living dept.

Common Dreams reports

Teachers in Oklahoma applauded the state Senate's passage of a $447 million bill to fund educators' first raise in a decade by raising taxes on oil and gas production as well as cigarettes and fuel--but warned that the plan is not enough to keep them from striking.

The proposal was approved in a 36-10 vote on Wednesday night [March 28] after weeks of speculation that teachers would stage a walkout beginning April 2 to demand salary increases as well as more funding for their overcrowded schools--where teachers are frequently forced to pay for supplies out of their own pockets.

"While this is major progress, this investment alone will not undo a decade of neglect", said Oklahoma Education Association (OEA) President Alicia Priest in a press release.[1] "Lawmakers have left funding on the table that could be used immediately to help Oklahoma students."

The mobilization by teachers in Oklahoma follows a multi-day strike in West Virginia earlier this month during which educators and school employees also occupied the state capitol to demand raises and a permanent funding solution for their health insurance program. The West Virginia strike kept the state's schools closed for nine consecutive school days and continued after lawmakers passed a one-time five percent raise, with teachers insisting that all their demands be met.

[...] "This package doesn't overcome shortfall caused by four-day weeks, overcrowded classrooms that deprive kids of the one-on-one attention they need. It's not enough", Priest said. "We must continue to push for more annual funding for our schools to reduce class size and restore more of the 28 percent of funds they cut from education over the last decade."

[1] Content is behind scripts.


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  • (Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @12:35PM (38 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @12:35PM (#660346)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:26PM (29 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:26PM (#660354)

      On the other hand, the countries with best education have socialist school systems. Did you know that China, Japan, Norway, Finland, and a bunch of other countries with great public school systems wipe the floor with the US in education rankings, every single time? Free market is a fine concept, for a goddamn *market*. Education, military, and infrastructure are some of those things that should be handled by the government, because the free market absolutely sucks for them.

      The problem with public schools in the US is not that they are "insulated from market forces", it's that every time a Republican gets in the office they cut funding, and then point at the terrible results. What the fuck did you expect? It's as if I kick you in the dick every time we meet, and then say to people that you're a weirdo because you keep saying that your dick hurts.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:36PM (24 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:36PM (#660359)
        • The best institutions of education in the world are private, and they are in the United States for the most part.

        • This applies to lower education as well; they produce the highest quality students, and nobody disputes that.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:01PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:01PM (#660361)

          The best institutions of education in the world are private, and they are in the United States for the most part.

          The verb tense is wrong. Use a near past to be correct. As the time passes, the tense will need to change to a distant pass.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM (22 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM (#660367)

          With that same data, I get the exact opposite impression than you do. The rankings are averages. So please tell me, what would the US average be without those few outliers pulling you up? You're sacrificing the well being of millions of children and boasting about how it helps a small percentage of elites :/

          • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (20 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (#660370)

            Roughly half of the population is below mean intelligence, and average intelligence is itself unimpressive.

            What do you expect?

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:45PM (8 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:45PM (#660382)

              And why is that relevant only for the US and not for any other country on the planet?

              If the average of the US is below the average of, say, Finland, but the top schools in the US are way above the top schools in Finland, what does that tell us about the rest of the US schools? How much worse are the US schools when compared to Finland, since it can't win even with those bell-curve outliers? Or maybe, somehow, in Finland only a quarter of population is below mean intelligence?

              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (#660388)

                The Finish people, who are ridiculously homogeneous (like the Asian countries, too) have a much higher average IQ.

                We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it.

                It's a totally different situation. That's why you are confused; you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

                • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:22PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:22PM (#660402)

                  It should be noted that the average U.S. IQ is propped up by the over-representation of very smart people who have moved to the U.S. to live, and who reproduce more very intelligent people there.

                  While those smart people lift the average IQ in the U.S., they do not make any smarter the rest of America, which has huge variations in demographics. That is in contrast to Finland, where everyone is basically the same person.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM (#660453)

                    Geez, you should get a doctorate in bullshitology. And users around here wonder why liberals freak out about the possibility of literal nazis existing in the US.

              • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:28PM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:28PM (#660422)

                The Finish people are ridiculously homogeneous (like the Asian countries, too).

                The average U.S. IQ is propped up by the over-representation of very smart people who have moved to the U.S. to live, and who reproduce more very intelligent people there.

                While those smart people lift the average IQ in the U.S., they do not make any smarter the rest of America, which has huge variations in demographics. That is in contrast to Finland, where everyone is basically the same person.

                We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it. Then, to meet graduation quotas, the public American educational system is dumbed down for everyone.

                It's a totally different situation. That's why you are confused; you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

                • (Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday March 30 2018, @11:15PM (2 children)

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Friday March 30 2018, @11:15PM (#660597) Journal

                  We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it.

                  I have been saying this, for quite some time!! It is the alt-right whites that reduce the intelligence of the American population! This is why we cannot have "white supremacy", 'cause white folks be so dumb! Matt Heimbach! Cantwell the crying neo-nazi! My God, these people are dumber than dumpsters of hammers! So there, I said it, white trailer trash is what lowers the American IQ! Not surprising, since it was all the Caucasian countries that realized they could just export all the stupid to the New World, or South Africa. Stupdity=Racism, and although correlation is not causation, the correlation is pretty strong in this case!

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:37PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:37PM (#660815)

                    And those whites that stayed home aren't racist? You're full of shit. The simple fact is, people raised in diverse environments are far less likely to be racist, those who are raised in monocultures are far more likely to be. Racists exist everywhere there is an ethnic supermajority, because those people have far less opportunity to be exposed to other cultures.

                    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by aristarchus on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:37PM

                      by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:37PM (#660917) Journal

                      The simple fact is,

                      Ah, simple facts from simple people! How do you know this is the case? Do you have any empirical evidence that this is so? Scientific evidence, even if only sociological surveys? Or are you just appealing to your own "common sense", something anyone else would recognize as prejudice.

              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:08PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:08PM (#660593)

                If the average of the US is below the average of, say, Finland, but the top schools in the US are way above the top schools in Finland, what does that tell us about the rest of the US schools?

                Well, it tells us that US schools are very bad at teaching stats. Next question.

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:48PM (10 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:48PM (#660383)

              Different AC here. I expect that we will take care of those of us who cannot take care of themselves.

              That means when the only jobs left are wait staff and robot technicians; and not everybody can be a robot technician like me and you; and even in the post-scarcity utopia, we don't need 10 billion waiters; so that means that billions of people are going to find themselves utterly without economic value.

              Human life is important above all other concerns, especially if the reason those lives are now worthless economically is because we have machines to do everything for us. End of line.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:06PM (9 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:06PM (#660393)

                You've stated the following as one of your axioms: Human life is important above all other concerns.

                Well, clearly, that is not true. Otherwise it would make sense to tear through any other organism or ecosystem in the world in the pursuit of making more humans.

                And, that's not a straw man, because that's what you're implying.

                You must accept that the number of humans should be understood according to the law of supply and demand just like any other thing in the world.

                Now, this does not imply that part of the supply should be deliberately destroyed; the correct axiom (which I assume you were hoping to articulate) is this:

                • Existing persons are sacred (note, an embryo is not a person).

                That means we can't just kill the "undesirables". They should be helped to attain a dignified existence, but maybe such dignity means helping people to choose not to have 8 goddamn kids, 3 of which they cannot even afford to feed, mkay?

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:27PM (8 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:27PM (#660403)

                  Otherwise it would make sense to tear through any other organism or ecosystem in the world in the pursuit of making more humans.

                  I did not say making more humans is what I value above all else. I value existing lives above all else.

                  Existing persons are sacred (note, an embryo is not a person).

                  Agreed.

                  They should be helped to attain a dignified existence, but maybe such dignity means helping people to choose not to have 8 goddamn kids, 3 of which they cannot even afford to feed, mkay?

                  Absolutely. But you sure showed that straw man what-for!

                  End of line stands.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM (7 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM (#660410)

                    I pointed out how that's not a straw man.

                    Also, That's not the end of the line. At best, your line of reasoning is incomplete.

                    It's not enough to say that existing human life (or persons) are sacred; you must conclude that there are too many humans.

                    The solution isn't socialism or a Universal Basic Income, or any other kind of wealth distribution. The solution is a reduction in the human population; at the very least, governments need to stop subsidizing reproduction via the welfare state or tax breaks for children.

                    Now, the question is this: How can the population be reduced humanely? All I can say is that this requires a reduction in population to be the result of each individual's reproductive choice. At most, a government may subsidize each individual's choice to take measures not to reproduce more than 2 children.

                    Who might choose to forego that government benefit? Well, the wealthy might, but that's a good thing: You want the population be grown from wealthy, healthy, intelligent people.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:15PM (6 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:15PM (#660418)

                      Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

                      Now, the question is this: How can the population be reduced humanely? All I can say is that this requires a reduction in population to be the result of each individual's reproductive choice. At most, a government may subsidize each individual's choice to take measures not to reproduce more than 2 children.

                      I would go further and say that reproduction is not needed at all to live a dignified life. When I'm in a bad mood, I might suggest mandatory sterilization, but practically speaking, removing entirely the funding for reproduction (tax breaks and taking "family size" into consideration for welfare benefits) is the best way forward.

                      I am confident that the natural instinct to reproduce will prevent humanity from going extinct without needing to redistribute wealth to fund even replacement reproduction.

                      Additionally, there are people who are economically valuable who are not able to reproduce for medical reasons. If we would get rid of the wealth redistribution the government and the insurance complex (enabled by the government and further entrenched by the ACA) engage in that massively allocates wealth for breeders who lack economic value, perhaps people who are interested in reproduction but incapable would be better able to fund medical technology that would enable them to be capable of reproduction.

                      (I hope I am still being consistent with my axiom that existing human life is valuable above all else. I would advocate for single payer healthcare. The benefits children would receive must not give benefit in any way, shape, or form to the parents, but those parents should not need an additional benefit because they'll be getting the same level of care as their children. Contraception and abortion should be provided as part of the single payer healthcare I'd propose.)

                      People who want to reproduce and have the financial capability to do so absolutely should be free to do so. As you point out, we want more people in the world who are capable of creating economic value (as evinced by sufficient wealth to support a family).

                      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:43PM (5 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:43PM (#660431)

                        In an orthogonal argument, I'd say that returning to Capitalism (which we've left behind long ago) would produce cheaper, higher quality health care for everyone.

                        In our discussion, I'd say that Single-Payer health care is a government subsidy of reproduction (which we've already agreed is wrongheaded); it removes the burden of caring for children, and it does so by means of wealth re-distribution.

                        State-sponsored abortion is also problematic, because there is a large number of people who consider it murder; those people should not be forced to fund what they considered to be murder.

                        To care for those children born to parents who cannot or will not take care of them adequately, there should be more robust institutions of adoption, so that kids are funneled into environments that are at least explicitly intended to do well by them.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:50PM (4 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:50PM (#660434)

                          State-sponsored abortion is also problematic, because there is a large number of people who consider it murder; those people should not be forced to fund what they considered to be murder.

                          Great, so I shouldn't be forced to pay for military and corporate bailouts. Tell me where do I apply to get those cancelled?

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:07PM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:07PM (#660439)

                            Well, I think both the anarcho-capitalist AC (assuming that's her I've been bouncing ideas off of) and the different AC (me) have a solution for you!

                            Anarcho-capitalism provides an obvious solution, which I'm sure the other AC will be happy to detail.

                            My solution is somewhat different. In either case, it's not going to be as easy as marking something off on some paperwork somewhere. We need to exercise political authority by showing up at the polls and voting for Greens and Libertarians, plus any other party (US Taxpayers/Natural Law party?) willing to join a coalition against the D/R team.

                            Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. The teachers in Oklahoma are using the soap box. There has been rumbling as concerns other teacher protests of making them criminally liable for continuing their protests without union support. We need to use the jury box there and the inherent right of jury nullification. We also need to use the ballot box effectively; stop voting for R/D team and start voting for political parties that represent change. Both the Greens and Libertarians are militarily isolationalist. So, this November (if you're a US citizen), head out to the ballot box and exercise political authority to stop military adventurism and corporate bailouts.

                            For people who want Trump gone and can't wait until 2020, exercise political authority at the ballot box. Maybe the D team will do it and maybe they won't. The elites want World War 3, and as long as Trump will give them World War 3, they will not remove him from office.

                            And well, keep the ammo box around, and I hope we don't need to use it. We shouldn't need to use it. (My axiom remains that human life is valuable above all else; yet men are not angels. I do not demand that one human give up her life simply because another human demands such.) The other three boxes should be sufficient in a democracy.

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:12PM (2 children)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:12PM (#660441)

                            Just because the State says you must pay for something doesn't make it right.

                            When you don't mind paying for something, then taxation to fund it is just the fee one pays for civilization; when you don't want to pay for something, then taxation is theft. Better, then, to find Free Market solutions for as much of society as possible.

                            That being said, with regard to the military, surely at least military defense is an indisputable purpose of government if there needs to be one. Abortion, though, is not such a clear purpose...

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:39PM (1 child)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:39PM (#660447)

                              Then the government needs to stop participating in executions. It doesn't make any one safer, costs ridiculous amounts of money, and makes you a hypocrite when you say you are pro life, but also pro death penalty. If one is state sanctioned murder, then surely both are.

                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM

                                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM (#660452)

                                I'm not arguing in favor of State-sponsored executions.

                                However, you should know that your argument is fallacious; your argument is a false equivalence.

                                A criminal has broken a law—a rule of conduct in society—the consequence of which was decided in advance that criminal's actions.

                                A fetus has done so such thing. It's not an equivalent situation.

          • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday March 30 2018, @04:11PM

            by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday March 30 2018, @04:11PM (#660417) Journal

            Isn't that the definition of capitalism? The system works!

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday March 30 2018, @07:35PM (3 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @07:35PM (#660493) Journal

        On the other hand, the countries with best education have socialist school systems.

        But a lot of countries with socialist school systems, including the US, don't have that.

        Free market is a fine concept, for a goddamn *market*.

        Free market has little to do with K-12 education in the US. College level, where free market does apply, the US is far stronger than these other countries you mentioned.

        Education, military, and infrastructure are some of those things that should be handled by the government, because the free market absolutely sucks for them.

        Except, of course, when free markets are quite advantageous instead such as the US college market. That's the problem with assertions. It's great when they're true, but when they aren't...

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:18PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:18PM (#660598)

          Except, of course, when free markets are quite advantageous instead such as the US college market.

          The US college market is a disaster. The vast majority of colleges are little better than high schools, which themselves are merely rote memorization factories. All around the world (not just the US), we measure less important things that are simply easier to test for, which can give the illusion that we're properly educating people.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:03AM (#660624)

            are merely rote memorization factories.

            You keep saying this, over and over again. I wonder why that is?

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:25AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:25AM (#660650) Journal

            The US college market is a disaster. The vast majority of colleges are little better than high schools, which themselves are merely rote memorization factories.

            Ok, so what does the college market have to do with high schools? With the current failure of a lot of K-12 public schools, remedial education is a large part of the lower tier of colleges and community colleges. So right there, there's a lot of rote memorization because someone else, who is not part of the market, isn't doing their job.

    • (Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:33PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:33PM (#660424)

      You're a moron a moron a total fucking nooooob

    • (Score: 1, Redundant) by qzm on Friday March 30 2018, @10:37PM (2 children)

      by qzm (3260) on Friday March 30 2018, @10:37PM (#660572)

      Shouldn't voters, not teachers, determine how much the state spend on education?
      What they are doing in effect is using the children as a lever to force decisive on public spending.
      How is that democratic?
      Public service unions are almost by definition anti democratic.
      They get two public voices, one through voting and one through the union.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:36PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:36PM (#660610)

        Shouldn't voters, not teachers, determine how much the state spend on education?

        Answer: no. The voters are not qualified. Only professional educators have the requisite expertise to determine optimal expenditures. Next question?

        • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @10:06AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @10:06AM (#660796)

          Just because a supplier of a service sets a price doesn't mean that said service is worth that price.

          The whole point of a market is to find a price that is profitable for both the supplier and the consumer.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:53PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:53PM (#660620)

      Soylent Etiquette Question: Is it proper, when a very nasty troll has bombed a thread with multiple reposts of identical posts, which, after numerous "troll" and then "redundant" mods, if finally modded "spam", to go back to the original post, and mod that one spam as well? Or should be be left as a lesser downmod? What is the Soylentially correct Soylentil to do?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @08:28AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @08:28AM (#660771)

        Hmmm, no guidance. I say, err on the side of the Spam Mod! Hammer down! Market Mechanism Engaged!

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @10:09AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @10:09AM (#660798)

        Because that's why this spammer "bombs" threads: He's provoked by people downmodding his legitimate comments in order to censor them.

        Don't want a "spam" bomb? Well, quit spamming said commenter with downmods. Simple.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:49PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:49PM (#660818)

          So maybe he should start making better points instead of rehashing those that were already rejected?

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by AndyTheAbsurd on Friday March 30 2018, @12:49PM (18 children)

    by AndyTheAbsurd (3958) on Friday March 30 2018, @12:49PM (#660348) Journal

    Anyone else think that the

    >> We're going to strike unless our demands our met!
    << Okay, we'll meet your demands!
    >> Well, you've been pissing us off for a long time, so we're going to strike anyway!

    nature of this particular protest is setting a bad precedent?

    Hopefully I'm misunderstanding what's going on in Oklahoma.

    --
    Please note my username before responding. You may have been trolled.
    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @12:58PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @12:58PM (#660350)

      It isn't about practical outcomes; it's about dominance; it's about emotion.

      You are being forced at the point of a gun to fund these imbeciles. It's totally absurd—it's anathema to a free society.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:02PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:02PM (#660362)

        Uf you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

        • (Score: 4, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Friday March 30 2018, @03:34PM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @03:34PM (#660404) Journal

          You do realize that some of the most ignorant sons of bitches in the world have been treated to very expensive educations?

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:20PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:20PM (#660484)

            You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:20PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:20PM (#660601)

              "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't lead a horticulture."
              Betsy DeVos, (exampla gratia, non auctoris.)

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM (#660409)

          I think our school system is expensive and it still pumps out ignoramuses in massive numbers. Rote memorization factories are not exactly good at educating people, after all. 'It's better than nothing.' is about the best you can say.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:30PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:30PM (#660355)

      Keep reading.

      "This package doesn't overcome shortfall caused by four-day weeks, overcrowded classrooms that deprive kids of the one-on-one attention they need. It's not enough"

      So it's:

      >> We're going to strike unless our demands our met!
      << Okay, we'll meet your demands!
      >> Uh, you didn't. We're still underfunded. We're going to strike until you do.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:46PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:46PM (#660499)

        There was a similar "settlement" in West Virginia the other week.
        33,000 Teachers Stage Wildcat Strike in West Virginia; Into a Second Week [2018-03-07] [soylentnews.org]

        What they got was a 5 percent pay raise for all public sector workers.
        The way that will be funded will be to further cut the safety net for the infamously impoverished Working Class in West Virginia without touching the incredibly rich Dirty Energy corporations within the state.

        In addition, what was missing from the deal was their big gripes: the improvement of the healthcare funding structure and fewer kids per classroom.

        ...and the thing about poor kids [google.com] is that you never know which one is going to prove to be the next genius. [google.com]

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:25PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:25PM (#660606)

        Four days of school a week is fine. Children spend too long in those rote memorization prisons as it is. Quality over quantity. Sadly, our school system has nothing in the way of quality.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @02:30AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @02:30AM (#660682)

          Leave it to Beaver is mostly fiction--and that was true even when it was in production.
          Adult females in households don't do housework in high heels and pearls.
          ...and in most households these days, both parents work outside the home in order to pay the bills.
          So, what are the parents of those kids supposed to do on that 5th day?
          Miss a day of work?

          You consume way too much Fox so-called News.
          The fantasy world they would like to to believe in doesn't exist.
          ...and hasn't, going back at least to Reagan.

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM (#660368)

      It isn't about practical outcomes; it's about dominance; it's about emotion.

      You are being forced at the point of a gun to fund these imbeciles. It's totally absurd—it's anathema to a free society.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by donkeyhotay on Friday March 30 2018, @02:31PM (2 children)

      by donkeyhotay (2540) on Friday March 30 2018, @02:31PM (#660376)

      I live in Oklahoma and am pretty familiar with the situation. Yes, you are misunderstanding. The legislature did not meet the teachers' demands. They passed a funding bill that only partially meets the striking teachers' demands and is temporary in nature.

      • (Score: 2) by AndyTheAbsurd on Friday March 30 2018, @02:59PM

        by AndyTheAbsurd (3958) on Friday March 30 2018, @02:59PM (#660390) Journal

        Great, thanks for the clarification.

        --
        Please note my username before responding. You may have been trolled.
      • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday March 30 2018, @03:12PM

        by Sulla (5173) on Friday March 30 2018, @03:12PM (#660399) Journal

        So at the end of the year their pay goes back down by 5%? Temporary and non-continuous are not the same.

        --
        Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:37PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:37PM (#660379)

      > gt; We're going to strike unless our demands our met!
      < < Okay, we'll meet your demands!
      > gt; Well, you've been pissing us off for a long time, so we're going to strike anyway!

      That's how Pravda is no doubt presenting it. Teacher unions seek rotten deal as momentum grows for April 2 statewide walkout in Oklahoma [wsws.org]:

      The determination of the unions to impose a sellout deal was demonstrated by the raising of a series of inadequate demands. The plan, which spreads increases over three years, calls for $10,000 in teacher raises; $5,000 for support professionals, and $200 million for schools for operational costs such as textbooks, transportation and additional teachers.

      Note that's what the union is pushing, which the teacher think is insufficient. The unions are working for the elites to try to stifle worker discontent with stagnant wages and spiraling healthcare costs (only spiraling because of our insurance-industrial complex).

      Oklahoma teachers reject funding bill, prepare to strike [wsws.org]:

      Oklahoma teachers have reacted with disgust and anger over the pay offer and the school-funding bill signed into law by Republican Governor Mary Fallin Thursday afternoon. Teachers are preparing for a statewide strike by over 40,000 educators on Monday, April 2.

      While the governor praised the bipartisan deal for giving teachers the “largest raise in Oklahoma history,” the one-time increase of between $5,000 to $7,000, depending on years of service, will do little for teachers who are ranked 49th in the nation in pay. Teachers have not had a raise in a decade even as they have borne higher out-of-pocket costs for health care and pensions.

      So even here, the pay increase isn't even meeting what the union wanted to settle for.

      While claiming there were no resources for public education, let alone pay raises, the Democrats and Republicans over the last decade have handed billions of dollars in tax breaks to the state’s energy corporations.

      Arizona teachers protest as Oklahoma educators battle union sabotage [wsws.org]:

      Last week, the OEA and OFT put forward a “roadmap” to Republican Governor Mary Fallin and the state legislature to prevent the strike, which called for a $10,000 raise over three years. This would be paid for largely through regressive consumption taxes that would hit working-class residents the hardest, combined with a small increase in taxes on the oil and gas industry.

      On Wednesday night, the State Senate voted 36-10 to back a bill passed by the State House of Representatives earlier in the week by a 79-19 margin. The bill only provides a one-time $6,000 raise and does nothing to reverse the decades-long school funding cuts, which have led to larger class sizes, fewer supplies and four-day class schedules in some districts.

      I also want to point out that the protest was organized through Facebook. That is the main reason Facebook has fallen out of favor with the establishment. It really has so little to do with SJWs and identity politics. In fact, it's because identity politics is failing to keep the masses placated that we see the push for internet censorship.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:42PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:42PM (#660407)

        OriginalLoser forgot to sign his post. No one else here cites wswswswswswswswsws

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:21PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:21PM (#660421)

          Well, you've now got somebody else who does, but I admit that Original Gewg_ is who turned me on to WSWS. I read WSWS daily now.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @07:56PM (#660506)

            You can find viewpoints there that you won't see anywhere else.

            I'm especially fond of the way they repeatedly call e.g. The International Socialist Organization (socialistworker.org) and Workers World Party (workers.org) "pseudo-Left" when those guys e.g. praise crappy deals that union officials have accepted followed by a back-to-work order for the rank and file.

            -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:11PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:11PM (#660364)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (#660369)

      Posting it a second time just makes it seem like you're trying to convince yourself. Why are you so afraid of educated children?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:50PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:50PM (#660384)

        She's just jealous because she never got a fair chance at a decent education. Crabs in a bucket.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:06PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:06PM (#660437)

      Sad troll is sad, screaming louder just triggers my empathy reflex. Do you need a hug?

  • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:20PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:20PM (#660371)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

  • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:36PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:36PM (#660378)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

  • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:41PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:41PM (#660380)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

  • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:55PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:55PM (#660386)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:05PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:05PM (#660391)

      You aren't going to convince anyone this way slugger.

  • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:10PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:10PM (#660398)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

  • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:34PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:34PM (#660405)

    The problem here is that the education industry has, through political coercion, been insulated from market forces.

    Thus, nobody knows what anything should cost anymore. It's the same reason that every socialist system fails and devolves ultimately into dysfunctional bread lines: A lack of a respect for the price mechanism.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by GreatOutdoors on Friday March 30 2018, @03:57PM (7 children)

    by GreatOutdoors (6408) on Friday March 30 2018, @03:57PM (#660411)

    I am familiar with the situation, and my girlfriend is a teacher. She has been teaching for 16 years and has only received two pay raises in that time. She still makes less than $35k per year, and on top of that, the state started increasing insurance fees at the start of Obamacare, so she is more in the hole now than when she started years ago. Her budget for the entire school year for her classroom is around $200. That doesn't even cover the cost of paper, so she spends another large chunk of her money and works a second job so that her kids can have school supplies.
    On the politics side, the bill that was passed was based on fees that fluctuate often, so the income is not guaranteed. The fees also expire or are routed to a different place starting 1 year from now, so this was only a temporary attempt at a fix. Lastly, the increase in taxes, even if they were to stay, is not enough to cover the money that the schools need to operate.

    I look forward to thoughtful discussion on the topic.

    --
    Yes, I did make a logical argument there. You should post a logical response.
    • (Score: 2) by fadrian on Friday March 30 2018, @04:21PM (1 child)

      by fadrian (3194) on Friday March 30 2018, @04:21PM (#660420) Homepage

      OK. I'll start the thoughtful discussion.

      What can you say? Red states suck.

      --
      That is all.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:40PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:40PM (#660612)

        At least they are not Kansas. BTW, What's the Matter With Kansas? [amazon.com]

    • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday March 30 2018, @04:37PM (4 children)

      by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday March 30 2018, @04:37PM (#660426) Journal
      The part I have never understood is why teachers are always complaining about buying suplies with their income.

      I went to a mix of public school, and I heard this complaint if anything more in the schools that were in much better shape financially. I am not calling the teachers liars, rather I wonder if this complaint has become a badge of honor for teachers, one that generationally becomes a self sustaining shitstorm.

      If you bail a sinking ship to keep an even keel, no one ever patches the hull.

      It seems to me they stop, and if the practice is as widespread as is seemingly universally accepted, then it that would be more effective than any union strike. Angry parents and falling scores provide feedback that the school is failing, teacher isn't forced to eat instant ramen through no fault of their own. The children's education is already suffering from underfunding, even with teachers bailing, and strike days aren't going to make that better. Further, if you are at the point of striking, buying supplies is undermining your efforts twice.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:48PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:48PM (#660433)

        Because 1) most teachers are decent people who don't want to make kids suffer just to make a point, and 2) if "angry parents and falling scores provide feedback that the school is failing", then the Republicans will say that the schools are failing so we should stop funding them at all.

        It's the typical infinite loop of reduce funding -> things get worse -> point to things getting worse as a reason to further reduce funding. Also see: ACA, railroads, USPS...

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:11PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:11PM (#660440)

          Agree.

          Also watch out for calls for teacher accountability. The one teacher who keeps buying supplies after the others stop is going to have the best metrics at accountability time. Then it's tragedy of the commons and we're right back where we started.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by insanumingenium on Friday March 30 2018, @05:20PM (1 child)

          by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday March 30 2018, @05:20PM (#660443) Journal

          I suspect number one is the closest to the naked truth, but if they are going on strike they are totally willing to let the kids suffer, they are acknowledging that short term suffering beats long term insufficiency. Just because a strike works in coal mines doesn't mean it is the best way of manipulating the school system.

          They may overhaul the system, but they can't simply discontinue public education, if that was an option the strike would fail and they would just send the teachers home for good and wash their hands of the mess. Notice how that was never even on the table.

          You really want to generate change while still providing supplies for the kids, print communist, anti-theist, pro-abortion, etc... propaganda on the back of every page you pay for yourself. Make sure it is well known, that only the personally bought supplies would be tainted. They will use whatever methods they can to stop you from providing supplies after that. You don't have to go so obviously repugnant, advertise your side business as a sad clown. Or make it nationalist pride propaganda, nothing but presidential tweets, a covfefe on every page, dress it up in republican pride.

          The point being, if you are going to rock the boat, stop actively calming it as well.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:36PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:36PM (#660445)

            Yeah, I'm not an expert in social sciences and/or economics, so I can't say if strike is going to help or not.

            However, I'd say there is a difference both in length and in degree between not buying school supplies and a strike.

            Strike will last for a few days, at worst weeks, and during that time kids either won't be going to school, or will spend their time at school playing. It's loud, it's obvious, and you know very quickly if it will work or not.

            Not buying supplies would have to be sustained for years to have any impact, making the school experience actively worse for several generations of children.

            If the strike lasts for longer than a few weeks, I believe the negative impact on kids will become too large. Since teachers are generally more decent people than politicians, it may be a completely viable approach to wait them out and, after they give up and get back to work, keep using their humanity against them.

            As for your propaganda idea, that seems like the fastest way to turn most of the country against them, as well as get fired :/ I can imagine the Fox News/MSNBC headlines, and they are not pretty.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by AnonTechie on Friday March 30 2018, @08:42PM (2 children)

    by AnonTechie (2275) on Friday March 30 2018, @08:42PM (#660522) Journal

    I think this is very relevant in this context. Some may have read it before but it bears repeating.

    A lecturer in a South African University wrote an expressive message to his students at the doctorate, masters and bachelors level and placed it at the entrance of the college.

    He wrote, “Collapsing any Nation does not require use of Atomic bombs or the use of Long range missiles. But it requires lowering the quality of Education and allowing cheating in the exams by the students.
    The patient dies in the hands of the doctor who passed his exams through cheating.
    And the buildings collapse in the hands of an engineer who passed his exams through cheating.
    And the money is lost in the hands of an accountant who passed his exams through cheating.
    And humanity dies in the hands of a religious scholar who passed his exams through cheating.
    And justice is lost in the hands of a judge who passed his exams through cheating.
    And ignorance is rampant in the minds of children who are under the care of a teacher who passed exams through cheating.
    The collapse of education is the collapse of the Nation”

    https://medium.com/@presidentdzitse/how-a-nation-is-collapsed-4e97625c4e07 [medium.com]

    --
    Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @09:59PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @09:59PM (#660552)

      The interesting post is modded off topic... By the AC that passed his exams through cheating.

    • (Score: 2, Troll) by qzm on Friday March 30 2018, @10:45PM

      by qzm (3260) on Friday March 30 2018, @10:45PM (#660578)

      Where is the mention of the school services suppliers making huge profits (look at uniform providers, IT services, cleaning, building services, professional development, etc)
      Where is the mention of the teachers who enjoy forms of tenure that mean no matter how badly the team they cannot be practically removed without actually breaking laws?
      Where is the mention of the rules that mean you cannot remove or punish children who are strongly and often violently breaking down the ability to teach with their behaviour?
      Where is the mention of the systemic exclusion of men from teaching?

      Funding is one small part of a huge problem, and most often a long way from the largest problem.
      The system is being destroyed by the people running it, and they don't seem to care.
      THAT is the problem..

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