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posted by fyngyrz on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:38PM   Printer-friendly
from the that-really-zucks dept.

Submitted via IRC for fyngyrz

Senator Kennedy of Louisiana confronted Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg about the transparency of the social media company's policies on Tuesday.

[...]

"I'm going to suggest you go home and rewrite it, and tell your $1,200 dollar and[sic] hour lawyer...you want it written in English not Swahili, so the average American user can understand," Kennedy said.

Source:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/10/senator-to-zuckerberg-your-user-agreement-sucks.html


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  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:46PM (38 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:46PM (#665565)

    Nobody is forced to use Facebook.

    What is going on here? What does any of this have to do with Congress?

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:53PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:53PM (#665568)

      Because currently it is politically opportune to be grandstanding about Failbook. They have spoken against the Narrative before, and they are suspected of causing Hillary not to receive her rightful crown in the 2016 election with the Cambridge Analytica deal.

      Sometimes I'm thinking WSWS has really got their finger on the truth here.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:58PM (21 children)

      by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:58PM (#665574)

      Nobody is forced to use the internet.

      Nobody is forced to use cars.

      Nobody is forced to use grocery stores.

      Nobody is forced to use electricity.

      What is Congress doing messing with any of these clearly voluntary things? Just because everybody is using them does not mean we should have any kind of direct control over them. After all, the free market is so great at making sure markets with little or no competition best serve their customers.

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:05PM (11 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:05PM (#665579)

        Facebook is an indispensable utility?! Like water, air, or even gasoline? You would suffocate if you cut off facebook?

        You are the facechild of millenial dumbfucks.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:23PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:23PM (#665587)

          And you must be a dinosaur that should have been buried a long time ago.

          The libertarian type of stupidity around here is really damaging, sadly you think it is the opposite where you are "freedom fighters" or some nonsense. The reality is you erode the foundations of all our current freedoms with your naive idealism.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:58AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:58AM (#665737)

            Slavers always say it is for the good of the slaves.

        • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:54PM (7 children)

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:54PM (#665607) Journal

          At least one of my former employers required every employee to have a FaceBook account. And they insisted we use our real names. Made it difficult to have 2 separate accounts, and that's the way they wanted it.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:16PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:16PM (#665618)

            That shouldn't even be legal. Regardless, I would refuse to work for such a person even if it meant living on the streets.

            • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:41AM (1 child)

              by bzipitidoo (4388) on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:41AM (#665728) Journal

              Seems most tech employees could really use a primer on how to handle management.

              Taking an absolute stand is great and all, but it's inflexible. There are many other ways to handle improper demands than the nuclear option of quit and run. At the least, you can just politely refuse to do it, and dare them to fire you. Quitting makes it easy on them. To put them in the position of having to follow through on their threat to fire you is much more awkward for them. It's like in poker, you didn't fold, you called them. They may back down, in which case they were bluffing. Or they may fire you, and then you can sue for improper termination, and may well win. To avoid that, they have to build a case about how you failed to do this and that, weren't a team player, and so on, and that takes time.

              Of course it's rough and tricky to work in a hostile environment. Although some of your fellow employees will be opportunists who see in you a chance to divert blame from themselves at your expense, you may have a lot of support from most of the others who have also been put in difficult positions, and would very much like to see someone, anyone, successfully stick it to management. You have to be very careful you don't hand them an excuse to fire you, and you absolutely must CYA, however tedious it is to insist on written orders so they can't deny that they told you to break the law or asked too much of you, or completely contradicted their orders of last week or whatever. There's always a little of that every workplace, but If it's bad enough, you probably should move on soon, just not too soon.

              Another thing you can do is look for the loopholes, and use them to the max. So you have to have an FB account, okay, fine, make a new account with your first and middle names switched, something like that, and use it as little as possible, and delete it at the first opportunity, like a change in company policy or the end of that job.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:42AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:42AM (#665781)

                Seems most tech employees could really use a primer on how to handle management.

                I'm not a tech employee. I own my own business (go figure) and would never make such absurd demands of my own employees. If your employer is making such unjust demands of you, chances are that workplace is utterly toxic anyway.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by insanumingenium on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:25PM (3 children)

            by insanumingenium (4824) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:25PM (#665621) Journal

            That, thats a hard no from me. Can't imagine why they would want to be so Orwellian. Only way I would accept those terms is if I was planning on getting me a facebook account and posing protected but detestable shit to anger them.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @08:54AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @08:54AM (#665805)

              The school has a programming class. Required for all students. The teacher- fresh out of uni - created Gmail accounts for all students using the class register. The course requires use of Google products.

              How do you get your kid's info deleted from Google after the fact, and how does your kid do the course work if they don't have an account?

              • (Score: 2) by ewk on Thursday April 12 2018, @10:33AM

                by ewk (5923) on Thursday April 12 2018, @10:33AM (#665836)

                Seems like a problem of the teacher.
                If (s)he does not manage to get the info deleted, sue the crap out of him/her.

                --
                I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
              • (Score: 1) by schusselig on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:15PM

                by schusselig (6771) on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:15PM (#665927)

                I'm pretty sure there's laws in place to prohibit schools from sharing information about minors to third parties. Definitely talk to a lawyer, YMMV.

        • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:16PM

          by meustrus (4961) on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:16PM (#665928)

          It always comes back to attacking the author, doesn't it? For the record, I am not on Facebook. I have never more than dabbled in it, and I deleted that account within months. I am concerned, however, that the day will soon come that Facebook's ubiquity will make my abstention irrelevant.

          --
          If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Thexalon on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:08PM (5 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:08PM (#665614)

        Nobody is forced to use electricity.

        Actually, you almost are.

        I got to hang out with a guy who has been living off the grid for over a decade, using windmills and solar panels and a generator and a battery system he built himself. He's on multiple occasions had to kick off inspectors that were certain he was stealing power from the lines.

        If you're a landlord, you're generally required by law to provide an electrical hookup to each rental unit, or your units will be considered unfit for human habitation and it can be illegal to rent them out. And if you're the person renting from said landlord, they'll usually require that you pay for the electricity, which means a monthly fee from the electrical company regardless of whether you actually turn anything on.

        On top of that, many building codes have requirements around electrical power for new construction. So unless you have an old house, and convert it to off-grid, odds are you're required to pay into the electrical grid.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:58PM (3 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:58PM (#665636) Journal
          I looked into doing that myself some time back, the regulations are mostly local so it may not be the same everywhere, but I found it was absolutely impossible to get permits to build a new home with no electricity.

          However, it *was* possible to get permits to restore/renovate a historic (though badly run-down) home on the property that had never had electricity, without adding it.

          Not a loophole that everyone can exploit unfortunately.
          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by fliptop on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:54AM

            by fliptop (1666) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:54AM (#665668) Journal

            I found it was absolutely impossible to get permits to build a new home with no electricity

            I'm finishing up a wiring job right now that involved pulling out 60-amp knob-and-tube and putting in 200-amp new service.

            Where I live the inspector had to look at the initial work I did (weather head, conduit, meter box, cut-off, cable, and 200-amp box inside the house) before the electric company would come out and switch the service over from the 60-amp old stuff. So more than likely you'd have to do at least that to get the inspector's blessing. The total investment is probably right around $400 for all the materials. Once the inspector has signed off and the electric company is given the go ahead to hook up, what would stop someone from not ever placing that request call?

            --
            Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:30AM (1 child)

            by Thexalon (636) on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:30AM (#665680)

            Another loophole in my area: If a building is considered "agricultural", it doesn't have to conform to building codes in the slightest.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by DeVilla on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:44AM

              by DeVilla (5354) on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:44AM (#665717)

              Do you still get a homestead tax credit that way? I would guess the Amish in the area found a way around this. Can't say I've thought to ask.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @08:14AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @08:14AM (#665796)

          On top of that, many building codes have requirements around electrical power for new construction. So unless you have an old house, and convert it to off-grid, odds are you're required to pay into the electrical grid.

          Can't you just call the electrical company and ask them to cut you off now to spare their expenses, because you are not going to pay anyway?

      • (Score: 1, Disagree) by tftp on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:53PM (1 child)

        by tftp (806) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:53PM (#665634) Homepage
        Nobody is forced to breathe or eat either.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:16PM (#666160)

        if you think accessing facebook is comparable to eating or driving to work, you are part of the problem.

        ( and people in many cities are forced to have electricity, and running water. Else your house gets condemned and you are kicked out )

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:16PM (9 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:16PM (#665582) Journal

      If we mandate that some persons must sit at the back of the bus, government shouldn't object.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:31PM (8 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:31PM (#665625)

        Segregation was a government program.

        In a free market, someone would just start a bus service that doesn't denigrate its customers—or maybe one that caters only to black people.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:47PM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:47PM (#665630) Journal

          Uh-huh. If that be so, then how did government enforce back of the bus policies? In actuality, it was enforced by a bus driver, and fellow riders. That is, it was enforced by individuals.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:37AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:37AM (#665726)

            Arguing is pointless. He lives in a magical world where violence and collusion both violate the laws of physics.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:02AM

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:02AM (#665809) Homepage
            You're suffering a complete failure of logic, or getting the wrong end of the wrong stick.

            Him: free-market solution
            You: No, if that, then stuff

            You've completely ignored the situation "there was no free market" scenario.

            In the absense of a free market, his free market solution wouldn't work, because it wouldn't be given a chance to work. And indeed, his free market solution was never even tried. All of your stuff is irrelevant to the point that GPP was trying to make - that the market isn't as free as you like to believe it is.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:41AM (4 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:41AM (#665686)

          Segregation was a government program.

          In a free market, someone would just start a bus service that doesn't denigrate its customers—or maybe one that caters only to black people.

          Segregation was part government policy, and part private business policy. There were some local ordinances like the Montgomery bus regulations, but there was lots of segregation implemented by business in the absence of regulation. For instance, there was no law requiring Woolworth's to refuse service to black patrons at their lunch counters. Why would a business do this? Simple: The population of white customers who wanted a segregated environment was larger and richer than the population of black customers. If you had to choose between selling to, say, 10,000 people with $30 a week in spare cash, and 7,000 people with $5 a week in spare cash, which would you pick?

          In that respect, making segregation illegal was probably good for business, since it meant that they could sell to black customers and tell the racist white customers that the government made them do it, thus making the racist white customers mad at the federal government rather than mad at the business.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:13PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:13PM (#665893)

            Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

            Jim Crow laws—sometimes, as in Florida, part of state constitutions—mandated the segregation of public schools, public places, and public transportation, and the segregation of restrooms, restaurants, and drinking fountains for whites and blacks…

            These Jim Crow laws revived principles of the 1865 and 1866 Black Codes, which had previously restricted the civil rights and civil liberties of African Americans.

            Segregation was a government program.

            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:50PM

              by Thexalon (636) on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:50PM (#665977)

              There are businesses that racially segregate right now to the degree the law allows. For instance, I had one boss that announced to the entire open-plan office that he was refusing to hire somebody because he wasn't white (I left shortly thereafter). Had I had that candidate's contact information, I would have told him why he didn't get the job, and would have gladly testified against that particular employer in court. In businesses with less than 25 employees, that sort of thing is much harder to catch because they don't have to be Equal Opportunity Employers.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday April 12 2018, @04:13PM

              by Thexalon (636) on Thursday April 12 2018, @04:13PM (#665995)

              Another followup: Yes, if you look up the laws that created segregation, you're going to find the laws that created segregation. However, you won't find the private actions that created segregation, because that's outside the scope of that article. One of the most famous protests of the Civil Rights Movement was about a private policy: the Greensboro sit-ins [wikipedia.org].

              I know you want to believe that government is the root of all evil. But in this case, it's demonstrably not.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:51PM

            by tangomargarine (667) on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:51PM (#665978)

            Why would a business do this? Simple: The population of white customers who wanted a segregated environment was larger and richer than the population of black customers. If you had to choose between selling to, say, 10,000 people with $30 a week in spare cash, and 7,000 people with $5 a week in spare cash, which would you pick?

            Plus this was the era when the racists were so pissed off they'd drag people off buses and beat them to death in broad daylight and get away with it. If I were a business owner can't say I'd really want that fury directed e.g. through the windows of my store ballistically.

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:07AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:07AM (#665722)

      If you want to know, start reading wswswswswswsws [wsws.org].

      At least, their theory is the only theory that makes even a lick of sense to me.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:48PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:48PM (#665975)

        You could've at least explained the WSWS stands for "World Socialist Website", asshole.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:41AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:41AM (#665727)

      the EULAs for every major piece of software, and at least the Windows 10 EULA, if not others.

      Maybe now that attention has been drawn to the issue they can look at these licenses and go 'Oh shit, this is not very free market capitalism friendly, when we let these companies become monopolies with this much lattitude in their take it or leave it contracts for software that for many people is a necessity to access the ecosystem, when alternatives cannot.'

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by SunTzuWarmaster on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:36PM (1 child)

      by SunTzuWarmaster (3971) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:36PM (#665875)

      I think the Onion had it right - Congress Demands To Know How Facebook Got People To Give Up Their Civil Liberties Without A Fight

      "We want to make sure we have this right: Even after you admitted that your site sold people’s information for profit, could be manipulated to infringe on press freedom, and even convinced people who to vote for, there wasn’t much backlash at all? Could you just outline for us *precisely* how you can coerce people into believing what you want them to believe without arousing much suspicion or making them mad? Thank you."

      • (Score: 2) by canopic jug on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:38PM

        by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:38PM (#666095) Journal

        I think the Onion had it right - Congress Demands To Know How Facebook Got People To Give Up Their Civil Liberties Without A Fight

        The Onion has not been so much funny as prescient lately. We'll see how the next few of their posts turn out. I have the feeling we'll soon be disappointed by the high precision of this one: Congress Reassures Nervous Zuckerberg They Won’t Actually Do Anything About This [theonion.com].

        --
        Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Snow on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:48PM (7 children)

    by Snow (1601) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:48PM (#665566) Journal

    Yea, of course it 'sucks'. All EULA agreements are pages and pages of legalese. Does this guy live under a rock?

    It could probably be summed up as follows :"You have no rights, and we [Facebook inc.] have all the rights we could possibly think of. If you disagree and want to take us to court, you can't because we want to settle it with arbitration."

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:57PM (3 children)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:57PM (#665570)

      Seriously, aren't most senators lawyers? What about the last tax bill they shoved through?

      • (Score: 4, Touché) by Snow on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:02PM

        by Snow (1601) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:02PM (#665576) Journal

        Oh you mean the tax bill that they read as thoroughly as the users on facebook read the EULA?

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by stretch611 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:17PM (1 child)

        by stretch611 (6199) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:17PM (#665584)

        A little off topic, but...

        The latest analysis on the tax bill: https://www.marketplace.org/2018/04/09/economy/analysis-tax-cuts-spending-raise-deficit-1t-2019 [marketplace.org]

        Essentially, more debt than expected, not a snowballs chance in hell of it paying for itself, the poor are the hardest hit, only the rich see any lasting benefit.

        --
        Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:12AM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:12AM (#665706) Journal

          *insert monologue by Iago the parrot on precisely how surprised he is*

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:31PM (1 child)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:31PM (#665590) Homepage Journal

      If you post one of your own photographs on Facebook, they can sell it to National Geographic.

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:58PM

        by frojack (1554) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:58PM (#665638) Journal

        If anyone posts a photo of YOU on Facebook they can sell that as well. And they can facial reco it and sell those parameters as well.

        If Facebook isn't an invention of the CIA/NSA then those guys missed the boat.
        I suspect it will come out some day that, like Microsoft, FB is a direct conduit to the security state, which is exactly why I expect zero for ZUK onsequences of these hearings.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:41PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:41PM (#665598) Journal

      The average EULA/Privacy Policy is more like a Miranda warning. Whatever you do can and will be used against you. You have a 'right' to a lawyer, at 600 bucks an hour. A better deal you'll never find!

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
  • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:49PM (10 children)

    by Sulla (5173) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:49PM (#665567) Journal

    I think the problem here is that the average American can't speak Swahili. I suggest that the American education system change to be more welcoming of companies who want to write illegible user agreements.

    --
    Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 5, Touché) by bob_super on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:04PM (8 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:04PM (#665578)

      More seriously:
        >written in English not Swahili, so the average American user can understand

      It IS written in English. Maybe you should stop cutting school funding, and get all the benefits of an educated population.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:19PM (7 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:19PM (#665586) Journal

        Actually, the senator makes a good point. Documents written in legalese really aren't all that very "English".

        Let's remember that the purpose of communication is to transfer ideas between people. The purpose of legalese is to mask and disguise the intent of the person(s) who wrote the document. Legalese intentionally obscures meaningful communication.

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:31PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:31PM (#665591)

          Wrong.

          Legalese is actually almost its own language, but the reason it is so obtuse is that the wording is VERY specific such that small grammatical changes can drastically alter the meaning behind a contract. It actually has to be burdensome otherwise any lawyer could argue that their client interpreted the contract a different way and thus it is non-binding. It would be nice if they were required to provide a human readable version that covers 90% of the entire EULA.

          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:50PM

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:50PM (#665604) Journal

            Legalese is actually almost its own language

            Let's be grateful it isn't Java!

            You know, for all the precision 'Legalese' claims to have, it sure is open to wildly variable interpretations, the winner being the most expensive. What we have is accounting, not law.

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:03AM (#665640)

            They call it a code of laws. Keyword being code.

            You do need a secret decoder ring to decipher it. It can be found without a JDL. Hidden in a slew of paralegal frameworks.

          • (Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:04AM

            by frojack (1554) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:04AM (#665642) Journal

            otherwise any lawyer could argue that their client interpreted the contract a different way and thus it is non-binding

            Easily solved.

            Include the boilerplate.
            And also include the Gloss.

            Written by the same company's people.

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
        • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:35PM

          by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:35PM (#665592) Homepage Journal

          The list moderator's take on this here essay of mine was to force moderation of all my subsequent posts:

          Makefiles as G-d and Nature Intended Them [warplife.com].

          tl;dr: To use ./configure is just like being sodomized by supersonic telephone poles.

          --
          Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Friday April 13 2018, @07:38PM (1 child)

          by darkfeline (1030) on Friday April 13 2018, @07:38PM (#666602) Homepage

          Have you tried actually reading a legal document?

          They are written in English. Just because many people find it difficult to read, does not make it "not very English". Maybe that's a testament to how poorly educated most people are, or how lazy most people are, but these documents are written in English, plain English, and if you can read English, you can read legal documents.

          They may require more effort to read, for example, they may be closer to a translated copy of Count of Monte Cristo than Garfield or anything else in the Sunday comics, but it's regular English that any competent reader of English should be able to read.

          --
          Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday April 13 2018, @07:54PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 13 2018, @07:54PM (#666607) Journal

            Oh-kay. You get a point for that. But, only if you'll admit that the Bible is also written in English, and that any literate person should understand the Bible. Or, at least, the King James Version, which is pure English.

            We will most likely agree that the US Constitution is written in very clear English, yet we have ongoing controversy over the meanings of quite clear meanings of our Bill of Rights.

            In cases of corporate disputes over contracts, copyrights, patents, and other IP, it takes teams of lawyers months, and even years, to establish what those various contracts actually mean, and/or what the law states regarding the IP dispute.

            If SCO, IBM, and a myriad of legal professionals wasted all those years trying to determine who properly owns precisely which rights, what hope does the average layman have? They typical high school grad - or worse, a high school dropout - has little chance of wading through that legalese. I'll go further - the typical college grad doesn't have much hope. There is a "gotcha" hidden somewhere in that contract. If your degree is in law, your chances are a helluva lot better than the high school dropout, but still - there is a "gotcha", and you've got to find it before you can give informed consent.

    • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:45AM

      by Fnord666 (652) on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:45AM (#665691) Homepage

      I think the problem here is that the average American can't speak Swahili. I suggest that the American education system change to be more welcoming of companies who want to write illegible user agreements.

      IIRC there is no written form of the Swahili language, so it probably wasn't literally written in it.

  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:54PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:54PM (#665569)

    Mod this comment redundant, but who forced you to register a facebook account, giving up all your personal info?

    Amazon.com, I can understand because you buy shit from them, but why are you on facebook?

    I know why. Because you are morons.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by acid andy on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:18PM (1 child)

      by acid andy (1683) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:18PM (#665585) Homepage Journal

      There's probably data about you on Farcebook too dude. They don't let a little thing like the need to register get in the way of profiling anyone they can grab data on.

      --
      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:09AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:09AM (#665643)

        Best way to Facebook is to allow your whole family to use the same account. Via proxies. And only post goatse pics to know which family member is who.

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:37PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:37PM (#665594)

      What a brilliant point! Only a totally smart person would have thought to do that! Oh but Amazon is OK? Because you buy shit from them that you can get pretty much anywhere? Because you're a lazy judgmental fuck trying to ignore the world's problems by pretending you're above it because SMART!?! Not only are you redundant but you're naive as fuck.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:04PM (7 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:04PM (#665611) Journal

        Because you buy shit from them that you can get pretty much anywhere?

        I have no idea what Anonymous Coward's address is. But, out here in Backwoods, Nowhere, USA, much of the stuff I can purchase on the internet is simply not available. Those things that I can get through online retailers which is also available locally are more expensive. Sometimes, the item is *only* 50% more expensive, sometimes, 500% more expensive, sometimes more. We might argue that if I shopped locally, I would be supporting local vendors and businessmen - except that most downtown areas are all but deserted, having been replaced by WalMart. I prefer to support those people who can compete with WalMart.

        Don't make any presumptions about what is available in any area in which you do not live.

        You may also argue that if I am willing to drive further from home, I might find what I am looking for. That argument fails, because the vendors in the nearest larger city often drop items, by reason of low sales volume.

        In reality, some of what you can get through Amazon is simply NOT available "pretty much anywhere". Well - I could be wrong. If AC owns his own private jet, and he can fly to Melbourne, or London, or Paris, or Hong Kong on a whim, then yeah, he can buy stuff "pretty much anywhere".

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:52PM (3 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:52PM (#665633) Journal
          I find myself in a similar situation, but I evaluate walmart as a lesser evil than amazon. I don't have to run arbitrary code from walmart to buy from them, or indicate acceptance to some sort of ridiculous EULA. If they have what I want, I can hand them cash and walk out with it.

          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:58AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:58AM (#665671)

            There is a Walmart near me. I often order on the web, use "free ship to store" and pay from a PayPal balance. I don't recall having to click through any special Walmart EULA (but it might have slipped by me?) When I pick up the item, I have the clerk open it for me and if there is a problem, they take it back and credit my PayPal account on the spot. If there is excess packaging (large cardboard box), the clerk will take that too.

            I won't knowingly use Amazon, ever since they lied and said that our engineering reference book was "out of print". It's never been out of print, our small publisher refused to knuckle under to the Amazon demand for ridiculous terms...(and other similar dirty tricks that are still ongoing). Back then, when Amazon said "out of print" it killed a number of sales because the buyers believed another lie, that "Amazon has every book". A couple of people even dug up my email address and pleaded with me to sell them a copy if I had any remaining stock (I sent them to the publisher where the price was lower than what Amazon listed).

            Recently I've ordered from eBay and been surprised when an Amazon box appeared--it seems that some eBay shops are sub-contracting fulfillment to Amazon.

            • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:14AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:14AM (#665723)

              Ah, ok, Amazon is fair game because they hurt *you*. Zuckerbook isn't because they haven't hurt *you*. Are you a solipsist?

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by Acabatag on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:36AM (1 child)

          by Acabatag (2885) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:36AM (#665662)

          You just described the Sears Catalog as a shopping option for many rural people 100 years ago.

          • (Score: 2) by canopic jug on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:45PM

            by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 12 2018, @06:45PM (#666100) Journal

            You just described the Sears Catalog as a shopping option for many rural people 100 years ago.

            A tablet or notebook computer can be reused many times, but regardless of the software, they just do not feel right in trying to be a complete replacement [farmcollector.com] for the Sears Catalog.

            --
            Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:13PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @03:13PM (#665964)

          It was more a point about giving a pass to one giant surveillance machine and not another. If you can't get something at the local store then find a online shop that isn't Amazon, otherwise total hypocrisy / ignorance.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by stretch611 on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:57PM (1 child)

    by stretch611 (6199) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @09:57PM (#665572)

    It might be better than just lip service if our actual senators wrote laws to help the consumer.

    Like laws that don't allow binding arbitration agreements on essential services like telecommunications and banking.

    Or to give us legal standing [wikipedia.org] to sue companies when our personal information is stolen. (equifax, Blue Cross, countless others)

    But then again, leave it to Congress to get a sound bite they want instead of actual results. After all the sound bite makes their constituents sound like they are on their side while still only supporting the businesses that pay for their "re-election" funds.

    --
    Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
    • (Score: 1) by redneckmother on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:09PM

      by redneckmother (3597) on Thursday April 12 2018, @02:09PM (#665924)

      It might be better than just lip service if our actual senators wrote laws to help the consumer.

      Hell, US Senators simply cut 'n paste from stuph written by lobbyists (as do most other legislators in the US). Some can't even be bothered to edit the templates properly before submitting.

      How many House and Senate legislators were able to read (nevermind debate, which was disallowed by "leadership") the recent federal tax legislation prior to voting on it?

      Minor pet peave: treating "Customers" as "consumers" is part of the problem. I despise the term and the implied attitude.

      --
      Mas cerveza por favor.
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:29PM (1 child)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:29PM (#665588) Homepage Journal

    -t

    When it was introduced the propeller-hat community got very very excited.

    The law that actually got passed resulted in "I Agree" checkboxes being legally enforceable.

    That's what you get for not having a clue about current legislation.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by archfeld on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:55PM

      by archfeld (4650) <treboreel@live.com> on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:55PM (#665609) Journal

      Simple, just get a 13 year old to install everything on your computer for you. They will understand better than most adults and as an added benefit they can't be held liable for a contract.

      --
      For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by archfeld on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:51PM

    by archfeld (4650) <treboreel@live.com> on Wednesday April 11 2018, @10:51PM (#665605) Journal

    What a concept... I realize no one is forced to use Facebook, but EULA, laws, insurance policies etc. are purposefully written in legalese to make them undecipherable to the common user. As a former cop I was forced to wade thru the penal code which is 800+ pages of legalese, which can be summarized in less than 150 pages. I am sure the Facebook EULA can be summarized as "All your bases are belong to us". The Senator should take the advice to heart and do the same with the laws they sponsor and then have lawyers and interns encode/decipher for them.

    --
    For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:13PM (2 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Wednesday April 11 2018, @11:13PM (#665616) Journal

    Just noticed this from Google news

    >>>

    "Your platform is still being used to circumvent the law and allow people to buy highly addictive drugs without a prescription," said Rep. David McKinley (R-W.Va.). "With all due respect, Facebook is actually enabling an illegal activity, and in so doing, you are hurting people. Would you agree with that statement?"
    "I think that there are a number of areas of content that we need to do a better job policing on our service," Zuckerberg responded.

    So...they close down backpage.com for doing this, but facefuck is fine.

    Hrrrg.

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:31AM (1 child)

      by legont (4179) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:31AM (#665657)

      It would probably be easier for facebook instead of censoring the content do real policing - find the perpetrators, collect the evidence, and make sure they are prosecuted. That's because censoring would have to be repeated once the identity is changed. In fact big players could cooperate and create an international private police force and if we press them they definitely would.

      Do we really want it?

      --
      "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:43AM

        by Gaaark (41) on Thursday April 12 2018, @01:43AM (#665687) Journal

        Only if they will implode under the weight!
        ;)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:49AM

    by Thexalon (636) on Thursday April 12 2018, @12:49AM (#665666)

    Assuming the user agreement basically says that Facebook can do whatever it wants and all the users can do is yell and scream and stomp and kick about it, then their legal team is almost definitely patting themselves on the back about how cleverly they designed it.

    And, furthermore, unless these senators are actually planning on passing a law that forces Facebook to write a different sort of agreement, Mr Kennedy is engaged in theater, and his comments should be treated as such.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @05:58AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 12 2018, @05:58AM (#665764)

    Zuckerberg is being scapegoated here.
    Practically every political campaign uses data analytics companies.
    This is plain and simple, Clinton got out-dogged by Trump and
    now the blue church wants blood.

  • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:12PM

    by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday April 12 2018, @09:12PM (#666158) Journal

    Did the Senator promise that any and all forthcoming legislation he would author or vote Yea on meet the same standards?

    --
    This sig for rent.
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