FDA Bans Pure Bulk Caffeine Products, Citing "significant Public Health Concern"
Companies can no longer sell bulk packages of liquid or powdered caffeine directly to consumers, the Food and Drug Administration announced Friday. The policy will take immediate effect "given the significant public health concern," according to the agency's statement released Friday. "Highly concentrated and pure caffeine, often sold in bulk packages, have been linked to at least two deaths in otherwise healthy individuals," the agency stated.
[...] In small doses, if you're otherwise healthy, caffeine shouldn't kill you. But part of the issue is that highly concentrated caffeine looks nothing like the kinds of caffeinated products we're used to seeing. Instead, it can look like water if it's in a liquid form or sugar if it's powdered. "The consequences of a consumer mistakenly confusing one of these products could be toxic or even lethal," the agency stated.
[...] Between 10 and 14 grams of caffeine is considered life-threatening, according to the FDA's guidelines, though people can have an irregular or rapid heart rate and seizures after taking just a gram. The amount of concentrated caffeine that's considered safe at a time—200 milligrams—is very, very small.
Also at Bloomberg.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 16 2018, @11:05PM (23 children)
At least two? That's it? That's all it takes for a ban to happen, and this is under the Trump administration? I sure am glad that Congress can create government agencies which can themselves unilaterally create new regulations without additional acts of Congress.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday April 16 2018, @11:07PM (19 children)
Fucking cocksuckers. Now I'll have to buy it from outside the US.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:51AM (18 children)
That extra $0.50 for shipping is a bitch.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:26AM (17 children)
Mostly I'm just concerned that I get what I pay for in the concentration I expect. Anything else can be quite dangerous when purchasing chemicals.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @04:10AM (16 children)
I wonder, does Aldrich sell caffeine? I had to register with them to buy tangled long chain polymers (super-absorbent polyacrylic acid).
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Tuesday April 17 2018, @08:47AM (15 children)
Yes, they do, we had a big jar of the stuff in my old lab.
I'm not surprised it's being controlled now, it is a poison after all.
At high school, one of my classmates had a project to test out the effects of increasing caffeine concentrations on Daphnia (water fleas). It would make their hearts beat faster and faster until they exploded. A can of Red Bull contains 80mg and that's enough to give me noticeable and scary heart palpitations.
The Sigma-Aldrich MSDS: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/DisplayMSDSPage.do?country=GB&language=en&productNumber=C0750&brand=SIAL&PageToGoToURL=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sigmaaldrich.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fsial%2Fc0750%3Flang%3Den [sigmaaldrich.com]
This gives the LD50 as 367.7mg/kg in rat; other sheets have values from 120mg/kg. Whatever the corresponding value in humans, it's clear that it would require tens of grams to kill you. However, we shouldn't forget that's the lethal value which kills 50% of the test subjects, you can still suffer from permanent heart damage and not die at much lower doses, or even still die at lower doses. I know of people who were hospitalised and nearly died from drinking several cans of Red Bull; it has extreme physiological effects, and that's overall not even reached one gram. Accidentally mixing a spoonful of pure caffeine into a drink could easily be fatal.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @10:42AM (13 children)
That wasn't just the caffeine unless you also can't handle a single cup of coffee. Standard twelve-ish ounce coffee cup size not the official eight ounces in imperial fluid measurements. Should be about 150mg of caffeine, give or take.
If you genuinely can't, your body is in astoundingly bad shape. Mine handles around 1000mg every single morning; 1500 if I didn't sleep well and need a bit more of a kick to get going.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @11:53AM (10 children)
> If you genuinely can't, your body is in astoundingly bad shape.
Hey Buzz, please explain how you jump from caffeine (in)tolerance to "bad shape"? Are you treating coffee consumption as something macho?
I'm in decent shape, about 5 pounds over the "correct" weight for my height, and have always been very caffeine sensitive. Years ago friends took me to an espresso bar...the first one tasted great but after the second I hallucinated for a half hour. To help stay alert on 1000 mile drives (16-18 hours with breaks) I chew one chocolate covered coffee bean and I'm good for another non-drowsy-hour.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:25PM (9 children)
The human body has evolved over quite a long time to be able to handle an insane variety of chemical input. If your body is less tolerant of variety than average, Darwin would say it is less fit for survival. That is what I mean.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:13PM
Not the same AC, but I'm also very sensitive to caffeine. I can handle other chemicals, no problem. I'm particularly insensitive to opiates and opiods, don't even get high at high doses let alone have any reduction in pain. I took a gram of heroin and got a light buzz (only time I've ever done, and I don't often do others).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:34PM (1 child)
Wow, now folks we've got a special treat today. Look out your left window and you can see a libertarian applying shitty logic and overly basic principles to complex human biology. Most people are too ashamed to demonstrate their lack of education, but not the free range libertarians!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:59PM
Do feel free to point out any specific flaws in my statements. Until then your trolls lack both style and bite. It's really quite pathetic and below SN trolling standards.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @05:57PM
I'm not going to try to explain to you the stupidity of your statement. And no, Darwin would never say such a stupid thing, so maybe maybe don't put words in his mouth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:08PM (4 children)
> If your body is less tolerant of variety than average, Darwin would say it is less fit for survival. That is what I mean.
I'm the chocolate coffee bean AC.
My background is very much northern European -- pale skin, red hair. Since coffee is native to tropical and southern Africa and tropical Asia I don't see any reason why my ancestors would have been selected (or not) for sensitivity to caffeine.
Anyway, I think my sensitivity to caffeine is a good deal, I don't waste time or money on a coffee habit. One box of chocolate coffee beans from Trader Joes might last me a few years. I don't need any stimulation to get going in the morning, wake me up and I'm on, clear headed and all ready to go. In terms of Darwin, this seems like it might be somewhat more useful/successful than a tolerance (or addiction?) to a specific stimulant.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:36PM (3 children)
Yes, I personally know vegans who think that getting a splitting headache from someone using beef or chicken broth instead of vegetable broth makes them somehow superior as well. They're what we sane people like to call "morons". If something that most of the world can tolerate at least moderate amounts of fucks you up even in small amounts, that is what we call "inferior fitness" in an omnivore such as humans.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @08:24PM (2 children)
Don't know why you jumped to vegans and broth?
I'm the coffee bean AC, from N. America, and since you back-handedly questioned my diet, I'm happy to say that I eat nearly everything. The only thing I turned down in Taiwan was sheep testicle stew. I'll admit that parsnips taste (to me) like dirt, so I don't enjoy them, but that's about it for my "won't eat" list.
When I drink coffee (rarely) I quit at about a quarter of a normal mug, my system is making very efficient usage of a powerful stimulant. If you really want to call on Darwin...then consider that my brain has evolved sufficiently so that I quickly learned how to adapt to my coffee sensitivity.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @08:43PM (1 child)
Re: vegans, I would have thought the similarities would be obvious.
Look, you ain't perfect but there's no need to get your panties in a wad over it. That's just life as a human being. Ain't none of us perfect and special little snowflakes. I, for instance, suck donkey balls at artsy stuff and made any number of foolish decisions growing up that I'd change if I could but you don't hear me making excuses about any of it.
The moral of this story is you're an imperfect hairless ape barely removed from flinging your own shit just like everyone else. Don't put on airs.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:23AM
> Mine handles around 1000mg every single morning; 1500 if I didn't sleep well and need a bit more of a kick to get going.
> Don't put on airs.
'nuff said.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:54PM (1 child)
This dates back to my early twenties when I was in my physical prime. There is stuff in Red Bull as well as caffeine, which may also have contributed. However, anecdotally, several of my friends have suffered similar effects and nowadays we all refuse to drink the stuff. The release rate is also important; in coffee it might still be bound up with other constituents of the coffee so might not be as bioavailable.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:01PM
I expect it's probably the taurine then or some unfortunate synergistic effect between ingredients.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:40PM
Nicotine. With a very diluted dose you would make the water fleas hyperactive. With a larger dose they would almost instantaneously die, with maybe a barely visible blur of activity.
Gave me a new respect for both caffeine and nicotine. Not enough to stop abusing the former, but enough to avoid the latter.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 16 2018, @11:16PM
No kidding. I would be totally happy with mandatory labeling on the package about how a small teaspoon of the stuff may kill you.
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:48AM
(Score: 3, Funny) by SomeGuy on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:02AM
It is banned because the squirrels were getting in to the stuff.
Entire cities were destroyed, but you don't remember it because of the rips in the space time continuum these things created.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday April 16 2018, @11:20PM
Shit, that's only like 5 shots of strong espresso. I can believe it though. I guess that's what tolerance is for.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by LVDOVICVS on Monday April 16 2018, @11:22PM (9 children)
I've heard that one can consume enough water to result in death. Gasoline tastes terrible and is apparently lethal, too. And too much whisky can end in either a good time, or death, depending.
So let's get on it FDA; water, gas, and whiskey. Ban 'em!
Oh yeah, I've heard a very small dose of lead from an AR-15 can be fatal, too. What about that?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:16AM (2 children)
I am genuinely amazed that the states who want to kill people have so much trouble finding solutions, and end up terribly botching executions, when it's so easy to kill humans.
Just ask the criminal whether they prefer chocolate or strawberry cake, and slip a few caffeine pills. Done. Moderately messy, but a lot less than the nightmares with needles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:06AM
From TFS:
That's more than a few pills. To make sure it's fatal, you want 50 grams or more. There are some pretty fat prisoners.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:48PM
i thought the republican party was against the nanny state that the democrats are always accused of ushering in?
maybe this is just to test the waters for other means of population control? opium seems to be a sedative and the legal prescriptions are pretty popular. Maybe someone wanted to make money off of a new speedball drug coming out to help counteract the drowsiness of addictive painkillers?
get addicted to sedatives and stimulants; it won't cure anything but it will make money for someone!
i mean look at that bitcoin guy that died at the rehab clinic. he had a monthly habit that was a retail price of $100k worth of oxycontin. Maybe all he needed was black death coffee!
anyway, may be soar with the red bulls, cause he died during treatment. i am guessing they told him he couldn't have any more and he didn't take it well. that or he learned there are some things money can't buy.
the problem is real tho. this remove two regulations for every new regulation doesnt seem to include fda actions.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:49AM (5 children)
There's the typical state park ban on weapons, pyrotechnics and alcoholic beverages; a.k.a. Firearms, Fireworks and Firewater. It's more about protecting other park guests and the wildlife than it is about protecting people from themselves.
Same goes for controlling access to rat poison, etc. - you really don't want easy access for the general public to lethal stuff that's easily slipped into a drink.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:28AM (4 children)
So, no more selling most of the things under your kitchen sink then.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @04:15AM (3 children)
What, from under your kitchen sink, can fit in a tablet the size of a baby aspirin be potentially lethal and basically undetectable?
Sure, you can kill someone with Drano, bleach, ammonia, etc. individually or in combination, but A) if they're conscious they'll probably feel it coming, B) they may even recognize it for what it is, and C) poison control keeps tabs on accidental deaths from these otherwise commonly used and useful items.
Cynically: The 5 hour energy drink people think it's a bad idea for you to homebrew your own concoction, unsafe even, and they're only trying to save the children from themselves...
Realistically: I'm pretty glad that it's hard to get ahold of suicide grade cyanide, too.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @10:47AM (2 children)
If you put enough caffeine into a drink to kill someone, they're going to spit it out due to the horrible taste unless they're severely intoxicated or are looking for a Darwin Award. Caffeine does not taste good in multi-gram per beverage amounts.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:19PM (1 child)
Drop a gram of caffeine in 12oz of sweet tea...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:29PM
A gram is not a lethal dose (that is in fact my average morning's intake) and you would most assuredly taste it. It would absolutely ruin the tea if it all went in one glass.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Monday April 16 2018, @11:25PM (4 children)
but without my caffeine pills my usual toilet -> water -> laptop> went to toilet -> water -> bed>.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:03AM
So you pee your bed now? Still, better than on your laptop! -_-
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:24AM
Well, that was a lesson. I put the entire routine in characters I evidently can't quote (greater than/less than). It was supposed to be bed -> toilet -> water -> laptop, where the second one replaced laptop with bed, thus implying a loop, thus somehow making you chuckle.
Oh well, I tried.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:50AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:48AM
Would adding 1 percent dark brown dye qualify as impure?
Put a little of the stuff in water and it still looks like black coffee.
Problem solved.
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 16 2018, @11:58PM (3 children)
If I want to overdose on caffeine and vomit in a train station trash can, I should be free to overdose on caffeine and vomit in a train station trash can! Fuck America land of NO FREEDUMBS!!! I'm gonna shit in the fucking trash can instead!!!! Train station here I come.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:45AM
That's why they sell 5 hour energy drink at convenience stores...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:57AM
We don't got no train station coz we don't got no train!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:24PM
America has plenty of DUMS that are FREE. They even vote. They can run for office. They become managers and rise to the highest levels within corporations.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by SubiculumHammer on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:09AM (12 children)
I worked in a chem lab at college. They had a bottle of pure caffeine. There were all sorts of skulls and cross-bones on this bottle. A granule would kill you because it is so concentrated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:16AM (1 child)
Did the college make you sign an agreement waiving your family's right to sue if you accidentally died on campus?
(Score: 2) by SubiculumHammer on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:46AM
nope and I cleaned some real nasty stuff off the ug's beakers
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:22AM (9 children)
I used to use some 200 mg caffeine tablets which weren't microscopic and didn't kill you (maybe if you took 10+ at once?). So either they contained a lot of filler or you are exaggerating about a "granule" being lethal.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Informative) by EvilSS on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:54AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @11:46AM
Indeed, much filler. I assume you are talking about Jet Alert or a similar 200mg caffeine pill (I take these). Pills like this are much safer than pure caffeine powder if for nothing more than consistent dosage. It is indeed easy to overdose on pure powder or concentrated liquid, but I'm torn on if this means it should be banned.
Anyway, I can say from the 200mg pills if I take 3+ at a time I start to feel dizzy, nauseous, and actually groggy/sleepy. I've started to limit myself to no more than 1 at a time and no more than 3 a day.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:26PM (4 children)
200 mg caffeine seems like a lot to me. That's over twice as much as I drink in a day. 2 cans of Diet Coke, each 46 mg. (Except on Fridays, 3 or 4 cans.)
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:13PM (3 children)
A more reasonable size would be 100 mg. 200 mg is the exxxtra strength version for sure. Even one of those can make a person jittery.
I don't consider it too healthy or useful and I don't use it anymore. I did "OD" on it once, where I basically had maybe a whole gram, fell asleep, and woke up a little later in a state of brief terror/panic. Took a walk and calmed down.
https://www.amazon.com/ProLab-Caffeine-Maximum-Potency-100-Count/dp/B0011865IQ/ [amazon.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:42PM (2 children)
Ha! Wuss! My upper limit has been determined entirely by my kidneys saying "OMGWTFBBQ" when I get too close to 2g/day of sustained consumption. I will admit that the corner-of-the-eye hallucinations get annoying when you start getting into levels around that though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @07:18PM (1 child)
Ah shit I remember those little fuzzies.
Also 1g at once is going to be worse than 2g over the whole day. Supposedly the biological half life is around 6 hours.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @07:56PM
True enough. I try to stick to about 1g from 5-10AM with half of it consumed in the first hour, a quarter over the following hour, and the last quarter allocated over the remaining three. And I'm still really wanting a nap by 11 or 12.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Tuesday April 17 2018, @05:35PM (1 child)
Well, Math would say 5 pills can cause irregular heartbeats and 50 would provide the required 10g of caffeine on the low end of the life threatening dosage.
Of course metric measurements are so difficult that the idea that it would take 5 - 200mg pills to equal 1 gram is so hard to determine if my calculations are correct. /s
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:25PM
I did the 1 gram and I don't ever want to do that again. Whatever wakefulness you get is coupled with momentary pauses of regret that interrupt your work.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:43AM (3 children)
In the 1990s some Columbians were importing cocaine in soda cans. Unfortunately, they didn't catch all of the product before it got out on grocery store shelves. The FDA was actually pretty on-top of that issue and not too many people died.
Source: worked at a medical device company 2 blocks from a Columbian grocery store on Miami Beach - our 1992 FDA inspector came directly from the grocery store to check out our procedural compliance; quite the shift, he had forgotten to put away his sidearm before walking in to our place.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:51AM (2 children)
Was he wearing white pants, a white t-shirt, and a white sports coat? Did he jump out of an expensive european sports car?
Vice squad. This is a raid!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:52AM
Typically, those were a pastel or black. [google.com]
an expensive european sports car
It looked Italian on the outside, but underneath it was USAian. [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday April 17 2018, @04:18AM
Nope, but he did look like a middle aged Tubbs. Remember, this was FDA, not Vice.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by arcz on Tuesday April 17 2018, @12:55AM (4 children)
This is only slightly annoying. They already "warned" several companies before, including the one I bought caffeine from. As a result, I pay a little bit more, and I get all the caffine in gelatin capsules that I have to open when making a soda syrup. But it actually isn't that bad, because it does save me time measuring since the caplets are already measured.
It's not like you can't buy caffeine pills, even caplets full of pure caffeine are fine. it's just the "bulk" form that can't be sold directly. And even with the extra cost of the caplets, caffeine is cheap enough that it doesn't really make a difference in the price of my home-made sodas.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:25AM (3 children)
When you say you make homemade soda, do you carbonate with yeast like this [allrecipes.com], or use some kind of SodaStream or CO2 tank thingy?
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:47PM (1 child)
We make our own soda with a SodaStream, because we sweeten with stevia and you can't buy soda sweetened with stevia (except maybe in extremely niche hippie stores in Williamsburg, Brooklyn). The family favorite is sumac soda, because we pick the sumac from trees in Prospect Park in August; it brews up like sun tea, and when sweetened and carbonated tastes something like a cross between lemonade and raspberry. Home-made ginger ale works well, too. Buy the ginger on special or at an Asian supermarket, add lemon juice, carbonate, and voila.
A side benefit is the peace of mind from knowing exactly what went into the beverage, and that it's far healthier without all the sugar, high fructose corn syrup, or what-have-you. Another fun aspect is you can get creative with soda varieties that you'll never find in a store, so it keeps the boredom at bay.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:02PM
Sumac is often used in hummus [spicespicebaby.net] for that reason.
Google is telling me that the CO2 cartridge refills for SodaStream run about $15 per 60 L of carbonated water aka $0.25 per liter. I bet someone is doing it cheaper with a big honking CO2 tank, possibly by repurposing equipment intended to carbonate beer.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by arcz on Tuesday April 17 2018, @05:47PM
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:13AM (17 children)
I'm OK with the FDA banning this substance for direct consumer sale. It fits well within their mandate, and is entirely consistent with the regulation of thousands of other drugs which can't be sold direct to consumers either.
I think we all recognize that there is a huge risk in using such highly concentrated products at a consumer level. My first thought went to drink spiking (for harm, not sexy times) - how easy would it be to seriously mess someone up with this?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:34AM (11 children)
Please, you can easily taste caffeine and very likely judge the concentration to within a hundred milligrams per cup. Don't believe me? Try using half decaf half regular in the office coffee pot some morning.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:02AM (6 children)
Decaf coffee from the supermarket tastes like shit because of how it has been decaffeinated. The difference in taste is all the chemicals they've used to strip not just caffein, but most of the flavour from the coffee.
There are some decaffeinated coffees (1/10th the caffein of a normal coffee) that taste better and stronger than lower quality coffees with more caffein in them. So I'm not sure it's obvious from taste alone.
However, the issue you're replying to is a faulty assumption anyway. The purpose isn't to stop malicious use of a chemical to poison someone - that can be done in any number of ways using other saleable opened capsules, tablets, liquids, powders, etc. The issue is that it is too easy to accidentally poison yourself or someone else because of the way the product is presented to a consumer - especially when a teaspoon of something that looks otherwise innocuous can kill you. Same applies to selling poisonous substances in bottles that look like water or other typical drinking bottles.
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:14AM (4 children)
The point was, you can taste caffeine. Don't believe me? Put as little as 50mg in a cup of water then do the Pepsi Challenge with an ordinary cup of water.
It's easy to accidentally kill yourself millions of ways if you're bloody stupid. That's no reason to make life shitty for those of us aren't.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @04:20AM (3 children)
In a neutral and relatively consistent tasting solution like water you might be able to taste it. But, add it some overly flavoured sugar drink, smoothie, or alcoholic beverage, and the odds that you'll recognise it as poisonous reduce dramatically. You might still taste it, but will you think it tastes bad/wrong/poisonous enough to avoid drinking it. Same goes for methanol in drinks, you can surely taste it in water, but in a cocktail you just assume its part of the flavour and end up in hospital with a risk of permanent eye damage.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @11:01AM (2 children)
In normal concentrations, you're still wrong. My tongue can spot 50mg of caffeine in twelve ounces of pretty much anything.
In lethal concentrations, you're astoundingly wrong. It would taste quite terrible in anything weaker tasting than drain cleaner. We're talking multiple grams instead of tens or hundreds of milligrams.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:03PM (1 child)
I'm glad to know that TMB's sense of taste is considered the standard across all human beings.
People regularly do much stupider things than downing an overly bitter self-made energy drink.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:45PM
True, and the species is better off for it. Intense stupidity is not a valuable species survival trait last I checked.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:06AM
...because of how it has been decaffeinated
Methylene Chloride or Ethyl Acetate?
There are other methods to do the task. [littlecoffeeplace.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:03AM (3 children)
The problem is, in super concentrated form, when you taste it, you will have easily swallowed a large dose already. It's too late then. Coffee is to ultrapure caffeine as light beer is to Everclear.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:18AM (2 children)
In a super concentrated form, you'd never swallow it to begin with unless you're bucking for a Darwin Award. It does not taste good in high concentrations. It in fact tastes quite terrible. Regardless, I'm utterly unconcerned if people want to go putting chemicals in things they plan to consume without knowing what the fatal doses of said chemicals are. It's not difficult to look up, so the only explanation they have is utter stupidity.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:59AM (1 child)
But won't you think of the children?!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 17 2018, @11:02AM
Fuck no I won't. Not letting your children drink poison isn't even parenting 101; it's the shit you should take as a given before you even show up to parenting 101.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by jmorris on Tuesday April 17 2018, @04:32AM (4 children)
You are the reason we are a dying society. Yes you. You personally.
A lot of stuff is dangerous and can kill you. It all used to be quite legal, sold over the counter and very few people died. Did you know you used to could go into a feed store or a hardware store and just buy a few sticks of dynamite? Folks used it to blow up stumps and other mundane uses. No government lists, no special licenses, you could just go in, grab a few sticks and walk over to the cash register and buy it. Just hearing that tale probably makes you want your snuggie and a safe place to cry. Most of the nastiest drugs we now fight the "War on some drugs" over used to be sold over the counter and fewer people per-capita were dying of overdoses. Dodge City's worst year was a lot safer then our nation's capital is now with an almost total ban on bearing arms and lets not even discuss the real shithole cities, all with gun bans.
But you know what really pisses me off? My grandchildren shall never know the joy of a real chemistry set, because you can't buy them anymore. That is entirely on you. YOU are helping fuck up my grandchildren's future.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday April 17 2018, @01:53PM
Agreed. That's where the DIY movement comes in, I think. Being able to manipulate matter is our birthright as humans. When they take that away it is a direct assault on who we are.
I want us to travel in a different direction as a global culture from the one we've been headed in, where we're all squeezed into ever tighter boxes for the control and benefit of a very few. Teaching us to be helpless and dependent from cradle to grave is abject tyranny. Instead, I want us all to play with real chemistry sets and work with power tools and how to build and design the things around us in our material culture, because what we build and do is the expression of the human spirit, and that is the greatest resource mankind has, not oil, not diamonds, not land.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:05PM
do what any other red-blooded american does -- break the law and claim ignorance of it when caught.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:32PM
I have very little argument with that. Other than the concerns that there are bad people who do bad things. But that has always been true. I would propose that certain bad things should be kept out of the hands of certain bad people. But that idea never seems to get very far. Even if it is a sincere attempt at not taking away everyone's guns, explosives and chemistry sets. (I enjoyed 3 chem sets as a kid. And other dangerous things like CRTs removed from trashed TVs, and other scary things.)
I would be more worried about climate change than chemistry sets.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday April 17 2018, @06:12PM
I would like to see a citation for "very few people died", possibly modified as "very few people injured". The human IQ distribution hasn't shifted all that much, and seeing how stupid many people are today, I find it dubious that "very few people died". You also need to account for the fact that there was a lot fewer people overall.
I don't entirely disagree with you, especially now that the Internet exists where even someone who doesn't know how to use X can reasonably obtain the knowledge to do so. However, I am human and suffer no delusions about my own human fallibility.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 17 2018, @02:24PM (1 child)
Pure nicotine is very dangerous, spilling a couple drops can kill you. It's still easily available and cheap online.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 17 2018, @03:08PM
FDA may be going after such sales in the future:
http://vaping360.com/deeming-day-is-august-8th-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-vaping/ [vaping360.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]