http://aem.asm.org/content/84/8/e00044-18.abstract
Hot-air hand dryers in multiple men's and women's bathrooms in three basic science research areas in an academic health center were screened for their deposition on plates of (i) total bacteria, some of which were identified, and (ii) a kanamycin-resistant Bacillus subtilis strain, PS533, spores of which are produced in large amounts in one basic science research laboratory.
Plates exposed to hand dryer air for 30 s averaged 18 to 60 colonies/plate; but interior hand dryer nozzle surfaces had minimal bacterial levels, plates exposed to bathroom air for 2 min with hand dryers off averaged ≤1 colony, and plates exposed to bathroom air moved by a small fan for 20 min had averages of 15 and 12 colonies/plate in two buildings tested.
Retrofitting hand dryers with HEPA filters reduced bacterial deposition by hand dryers ∼4-fold, and potential human pathogens were recovered from plates exposed to hand dryer air whether or not a HEPA filter was present and from bathroom air moved by a small fan. Spore-forming colonies, identified as B. subtilis PS533, averaged ∼2.5 to 5% of bacteria deposited by hand dryers throughout the basic research areas examined regardless of distance from the spore-forming laboratory, and these were almost certainly deposited as spores. Comparable results were obtained when bathroom air was sampled for spores.
These results indicate that many kinds of bacteria, including potential pathogens and spores, can be deposited on hands exposed to bathroom hand dryers and that spores could be dispersed throughout buildings and deposited on hands by hand dryers.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:21AM
Behind the Thermostat.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:38AM (2 children)
Push Button
Receive Bacon
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday April 18 2018, @05:31AM (1 child)
Myth Busters covered this 5 years ago. Paper towels won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pFww_EaLiY [youtube.com]
When life isn't going right, go left.
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday April 18 2018, @05:36AM
That link didn't carry through.
https://mythresults.com/down-dirty-earthquake-survival [mythresults.com]
When life isn't going right, go left.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:48AM (2 children)
Make kids eat dirt. Make them invincible to common bacteria.
(Score: 3, Funny) by looorg on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:19AM (1 child)
Is that you George Carlin?
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:14AM
Just Soylent's collective unconscious.
(Score: 4, Funny) by SomeGuy on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:51AM (4 children)
Interesting that this story would come up. The other day I was at a new antiques mall and somewhat surprisingly their restroom had a brand new new-fangled kind of hand dryer. It had a motion sensor, that was nice, and sort of an odd designer shape with a wide narrow vent opening, but - and not kidding at all - it had a bunch of fucking blue LEDs (so it MUST be high tech!).
It seemed to use more pressure than heat and blew all the water from my hands right on to the fucking drywall below it. I knew it was going to do that because the entire wall under it was covered in nasty crap. Everything in this restroom was brand new and probably it had only been there for a few months too!
Just. Fucking. Brilliant.
But, but, but BLUE LEDS! HIGH TECH! BETTER FOR TEH ENVORNMENT!
You would think that an antiques place like might actually be able to dig up a vintage hand dryer that actually *works*. They don't make 'em like they used to.
(Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:55AM (1 child)
Most places in this part of the Baltics are starting to favour returning to good old fashioned paper towels, and for good reason.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday April 18 2018, @05:45AM
Actually, I think that Dyson are the clones. I think similar dryers were in widespread use in Japan first.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday April 18 2018, @05:43AM (1 child)
You should take off your rose-tinted glasses. Hand dryers are an example of something that never worked. Don't you remember using a hand dryer, then giving up and rubbing your hands on your clothes?
Modern hand dryers do actually get your hand dry. Unfortunately, they are more likely to make you ill.
(Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Wednesday April 18 2018, @06:51AM
Actually they are water spot and hand crud stained glasses. Ew. :P
I do recall some hand driers that did a good enough job drying. They used a lower fan speed and lots of heat. Although the ones I am thinking of did use push-buttons, making them far from ideal. That was a long time ago back when people weren't afraid to throw the proper amount of electricity at a problem.
That is the big problem with modern stuff, trying to reduce power usage, and thereby reducing the effectiveness. That and the geenies who's heads will explode at the sight of a piece of paper.
The only real advantage a hand dryer has is when it is used in someplace where paper towels can't be restocked easily, or in places that may have random huge usage surges. Anywhere else should use paper towels.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:51AM (1 child)
Finally, the shit has literally hit the fan.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @07:39AM
Technically, it's shit blowing from the fan... onto your hands.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Appalbarry on Wednesday April 18 2018, @01:58AM (6 children)
Going back thirty or forty years ago, when Dyson was still in knee pants, there was a great rivalry between companies selling paper towels for washrooms, and the ones selling cloth roller towels - the ones with a big U loop below the cabinet. And of course, hot air blower companies.
The cloth towel companies had "Research" showing that paper "towel litter" was a health hazard.
The paper towel companies had "Research" showing that damp cloth towels were a health hazard.
And they both had "Research" showing that blasting wet germy air all around the room was the biggest health hazard.
Of course every woman will tell you that men never wash their hands on any case. Which is why you shouldn't eat the peanuts in the bowl at your local bar.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:38AM (5 children)
Now what would be interesting is if they did a study on whether you ended up with more germs on your hands from using an air drier vs. paper towel vs. not washing your hands at all. Plates, however, are not remotely a valid surrogate for human hands. Especially sterile plates.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @07:46AM
I'm actually surprised with these low numbers that they found. 60 colonies on a plate in the worst case. If you would just press your hands on a plate you would easily get more colonies. These are the kinds of experiments that you perform during your microbiology laboratory education.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:23PM (3 children)
Well, the winner would depend on who is funding the study.
I tried to find a CDC study on this, but the best I can find is a bunch of articles saying any drying is better than nothing, wet hands spread bacteria more than dry ones. But that is kind of obvious.
https://www.cleanlink.com/sm/article/CDC-Says-Hand-Drying-Is-Essential--16136 [cleanlink.com]
One quote said something like: Paper towels dry faster, so people are more likely to get a thorough drying, which results in less contamination.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/21/11479038/dyson-hand-dryer-hygiene-paper-towel-debate [theverge.com]
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:14AM (2 children)
Also, there's some value in a paper towel's scraping action.
I recall a study done on surgical scrubbing, that found for bacterial elimination the most important part wasn't the soap, or the washing, but the physical scraping action of the surgical-scrub-brush.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:28PM (1 child)
I love lava soap. After doing some outdoor work or anything involving engines or grease. Just scrub of whatever layer of skin has the oil in it.
Boom, all clean. Granted, I don't do work with my hands terribly often, otherwise this would become ineffective.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday April 19 2018, @08:59PM
My fave soap too -- even if you're not scrubbing off a layer, it's just good soap.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:16AM (23 children)
Typical blower is just too damned noisy, for starters. I have no desire to advertise to everyone in the building that I'm in the bathroom, or that I'm washing my hands after having used the bathroom. Some few of those damned noisy boxes actually hurt the ears. Fek 'em - my hands can drip dry if all that's available is a blower.
Next, many dryers never heat up. Some by design, I guess, others because the heating element has burnt. All you have is a little wind tunnel, designed to blow water off of your hands. I suppose that works, but plain old fashioned air drying also works. Why do I need a high-dollar wind tunnel to do what nature is going to do anyway?
Many blowers are just so damned SLOW! Paper towels are alright - get three portions of paper towel, wipe hands, drop paper in the bin, all within about 30 seconds. Standing there listening to that blower whine, or keen, or moan seems to take forever, give or take a century.
Then, there are the "high tech" no-touch devices. Not just the dryer, but the faucet, soap dispenser, and/or sanitizers. Many of them just refuse to see me. They won't acknowledge my presence, at all. The worst combination of blind no-touch devices are when the soap dispenser works for me, but the water faucet does not. So, there I stand with a handful of soap, and no water. Unless, of course, I first try the water, to ensure that I can get water to rinse away the soap.
To hell with all this high tech bullshit. Just make sure I can get some water, and I'll be happy. I trust nature to dry my hands in due time.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:25AM (14 children)
Oh, I forgot to mention those times when the bathroom REALLY takes a dislike to me. The water faucet may deign to see me, and award me with some running water. It stays on for about ten seconds, and cuts off. THEN it refuses to acknowledge my presence. I have one wet hand, I've reached for the soap, so the other hand is soapy. Try to get a little more water on the other hand - and no luck. I feel like the guy in the nursery rhyme - one shoe off, and one shoe on. WTF do I do now? If there were a paper towel available, I could use it to remove most of the soap, but they've got this stupid blower that has decided not to see me anyway. I guess I can try to remove most of the soap on the door knob as I exit this useless room . . . .
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:35AM
The blow driers are like a slow youtube video explanation when you want the text you can go through at your own (much faster) speed.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:35AM (3 children)
You shouldn't have sold your soul. Didn't you ever watch the Simpsons? They had an episode all about that.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:25PM (2 children)
Quick question: Can Vampires use the touchless faucets and dryers?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 18 2018, @07:37PM (1 child)
Nope. They can't cross running water. Makes me wonder what happens when they go to take a leak...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:36PM
Must suck to be an OCD vampire.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 4, Funny) by RS3 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @03:59AM (8 children)
Those various no-touch things work by sensing infrared. Body heat. Yeah, that. So, a few questions: do you see yourself in mirrors? Do you cast a shadow? Does light bother you so much you wouldn't try to cast a shadow? How about some nice garlic bread? Any aversion to a cross or crucifix? Just wondering.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @02:17PM (7 children)
No, none of the above. I have no idea why the sensors can sometimes see me, and other times not. My body temperature isn't below normal. No, I'm not a vampire. I'm not a lizard person. Beats hell out of me. I think the tech is faulty. The blower guy will tell you that I'm faulty. All I know for sure is, I have about a 25% chance of having an automated bathroom work for me.
Wait - maybe we're both looking at this wrong . . . can a bathroom be possessed? Maybe there's a bathroom demon that follows me around, and possesses the bathroom equipment as I enter?
(Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday April 18 2018, @11:21PM
I'm with you. I have about a 25% success rate on those automatics. I've literally been in bathrooms going from faucet to faucet waving my hands around like a fucking lunatic, unless you knew of course, that there was technology allegedly designed to help me operate a fucking valve.
I've said fuck it, and just started wiping my hands on my shirt towards my back. I never touch a bathroom door anyways. That's what my shirt corner is for. Those air dryers are a public health hazard, but the lobbyists make sure they don't get banned. Extremely ineffective at drying your hands, never hot enough, poorly maintained, and never cleaned.
Maybe we should just go Chinese, which is to say that all you're provided with is running water. Maybe soap, but that is in upper scale restaurants or "Westernized" establishments. The culture over there has you bringing paper napkins to the restaurant, gas station, etc. The thing I like about that idea, is there is far less waste.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 3, Funny) by RS3 on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:36AM
I'm embarrassed, it was too late at night and my brain was not functioning fully. I was stuck on vampires and lizards and needed to think more broadly.
When you read the word "brain", did you salivate?
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:38PM (4 children)
It would be difficult to disprove your possession hypothesis, so I'll let that stand.
I'm sure most people know the automatic faucets / dispensers use an IR (infrared) sensor. It's optically band-limited to human skin temperature. These sensors have been around for many years, in the early days mostly being seen in motion-activated outdoor light fixtures. Being inexpensively mass-produced, there's a "tolerance" on the spec, so some are better than others. Companies don't normally test things as much as we wish they would- don't want to hurt profit, right? Testing is done by the end user, warranty claim process. Blame the bean-counters and stock market.
Anyway, that sensor has to be protected from environmental damage, so it's put behind some kind of window, which will affect the IR. Variations in that material will affect how well the thing works.
Recently I was in an establishment that had many of these things and one time a drop of water landed on the faucet sensor window and the faucet would not stop running. Dumb design, the window being right behind the stream of water where normal hand washing splash will wet it. When I dried off the drop, the faucet stopped. I surmise the drop was a lens and gathered much IR from me.
Another one was very finicky and on close inspection I noticed some tape residue on the little window. Rubbed it clean and it works well now.
I usually have to put my hand pretty close to the sensor to trigger it. You may have thicker skin, or for whatever reason (apocalypse aside) just don't give off as much body heat. Find someone with an IR camera and see if you're as IR "bright" as other people.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:37PM (3 children)
That's an idea - find out what I look like on an IR sensor. A guy at work has one of those gadgets for finding electrical hot spots. He gives it very little serious use, just mostly playing with it. If I remember, I'll have him drag it out, and let me play with it. You've got me curious - do I glow less than other people? Thick skin? Maybe that explains why sensitivity training doesn't affect me. :^)
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday April 19 2018, @04:09PM (2 children)
If you don't show up much in IR, I know of some three-letter agencies who might want to hire you.
About a year ago a good friend of mine decided to get into the energy audit / inspection world. He bought a fancy IR camera, took a course, etc. The camera is truly awesome. You touch a fender and it's amazing how long the camera can see the handprint heat.
BTW, not sure where you live, but if it's a warmer climate, perhaps background IR is affecting the IR sensors in the restrooms, etc.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @04:32PM (1 child)
Well, the thing is, I don't hear other people complain about the things. I live in Arkansas, where it's pretty warm. But, we've had a nice cold winter - actually a long winter - and few restrooms are heated very warm. I should probably be the warmest thing in the room, even if I'm less visible than the average person. I can walk into a restroom, someone is washing, then leaving. I KNOW the stuff works, because he just had the water running, and lathered up hands. But, I do my thing, walk to the sink, and - nothing. Maybe the soap works, maybe the water works, but no towels. Or blower, as the case may be. Alternatively, everything works except the water. It's mix or match. I'll have to remember the bit about splashing water on the sensors - maybe that will help.
Of course, it's merely an annoyance to me. I don't lose any sleep over a failure to wash my hands. That annoyance is tinged with humor, too. Electronics never work quite as expected, it seems. Those bathroom fixtures just confirm that belief - you can't count on electronic gadgetry.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:11PM
I'm in PA but otherwise kindred spirit. I have a HUGE issue with _anything_ that doesn't serve the purpose: help the human. My biggest gripes, closely intertwined, are generally UI (including ergonomics) and overly-automated everything.
It would be a very different thing if you could adjust the IR sensors, but from what I've found, you can not. The sensor is a self-contained part with no adjustment. It just does its thing, and you have to like it.
My stupid car will automatically turn on the headlights, unless the sun is directly on the dashboard sensor. There is no adjustment. I've done enough circuit design to know that any kind of light sensor will have wide spec. tolerances and need human adjustable circuits, or self-normalizing / self-calibrating. Someday I'll build something to put in the circuit and give me adjustment. But that said, if my life is ever that slow, there are other things I want to do...
(Score: 2) by Rivenaleem on Wednesday April 18 2018, @08:10AM (2 children)
As an experiment some time, shake the water off your hands into the sink 10-12 times. Then use ONE sheet of paper to dry your hands. Throw that sheet away and get another. After using the second sheet, examine it to see just how wet it got. A lot of people instinctively grab a whole bunch of sheets, scrunch them up and then throw mostly dry sheets into the trash. One sheet is all you need. You will see that your hands do not get much drier after using that first sheet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @11:42AM
Often the sheet dispensers are so overfilled, that when you try to pull one you: 1) shred it in many pieces, or 2) pull a shitload of those towels in one go.
(Score: 2) by danaris on Wednesday April 18 2018, @12:54PM
I've seen some advice that says shake off 12 times, then take 1 sheet and fold it in quarters. That seems like it's probably better than the standard way, but still always leaves my hands damp.
I have, for years, taken 2 sheets together, dried, then taken a third sheet, and finished drying. The third sheet definitely, always, gets wet enough that you wouldn't want to use it for anything else.
Dan Aris
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @12:21PM (4 children)
Oh, now you've gone and triggered me... :)
So, I go to the bathroom, touchless faucet, soap dispenser, and blower -- awesome, green, save mother nature, touchy feely tree-huggy virtue-signalling goodnes.
Great, now after all that I have to GRAB. ON. TO. THE. FUCKING. DOOR HANDLE with BOTH HANDS and YANK HARD to try to get out of the fucking place. Same door handle presumably used by the guy before me who shot straight out of the stall and went for the door, presumably after having wiped his arse with his bare hands.
How THE FUCK does THAT even make sense, who comes up with these shit-for-brains designs, is there a place they teach that?
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday April 18 2018, @04:00PM
Someone will say "those stainless steel door handles are self-sanitizing!" Yeah, except that only works if every single person washes their hands thoroughly before grabbing it with their filthy shit-hooks.
As I learned from homebrewing, sanitization is only effective if the surface is completely clean.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @05:06PM
one bathroom on the entire campus where I work has one of these: http://www.stepnpull.com/ [stepnpull.com] which is absolutely awesome: no need to touch the door handle after cleaning one's hands, at all, no matter whether there are paper towels available or not.
Trying to convince people to install these in more places, on the other hand, seems to be an uphill battle, for reasons I can't comprehend.
And no, I don't work for these guys, there's lots of others if you google "bathroom door foot pedal" :)
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 18 2018, @07:39PM
Wait, so I'm the only one who uses her foot to open the door? Either with a sort of slow-motion crescent kick or simply wedging the toes of one shoe in the handle and pulling back? Huh...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday April 18 2018, @11:38PM
Yep, me too.
The perfect bathroom has no door. It's an open entry, possibly with a privacy screening turn, hallway that brings you to all the sinks, soap dispensers, and hand dryers. Beyond that, is a series of not-bathroom-stalls, but actual personal bathrooms with a fucking lock, and floor to ceiling doors. At the very top you might put a grill for airflow, but nothing that allows entry, or surveillance. Other nice additions are a medical waste container (a lot more of us have to shoot up something legal these days). There are trashcans, even in the bathrooms themselves, and flushable tissues for those that need it.
The hand dryers could be a good thing, if the airflow was controlled, MUCH faster, and significantly hotter. By controlled, I mean imagine you putting your hands into the wall. Multiple places, maybe 1 foot across and 6 inches high, at slightly different heights. It acts like one of those air vents you have in a chemistry lab. All of the airflow is maintained within the wall and the hood within. It creates negative pressure in the room, which means that nothing is getting out of those holes. Much easier to maintain and clean on a daily basis. Some HEPA filters, commercial UV, stainless-steel with silver linings in the wall, or some other suitable anti-microbial surface tech. It could even be self-cleaning.
It's nice, efficient, solves the whole tranny-is-to-scary-to-be-in-a-bathroom-with-me silliness, environmentally friendlier, and is absolutely certain to never be built.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday April 18 2018, @12:55PM
There are bacteria in the air. And there is no guarantee even when people wash their hands that they are washing them properly. Starting a fan doesn't kill the bacteria, it moves them around. It is doubtful that the heating element of the hand dryer warms the air enough for long enough even as it passes directly by the elements to reach pathogenic-killing temperatures... you can't have the dryer air burning your hands, after all. B. Subtilis is an endospore-former anyway, so it likely has a degree of heat resistance. My guess (and it's just a WAG) is that you have more colonies on your hands from either improper washing and/or not utilizing the right cleaning substances (bar soap... the outside of the soft soap bottle, the BUTTON or LEVER of the soap dispenser... all invite bacteria to recolonize - do you wash that finger that pushes that button well after getting your soap and is the soap good enough?)
Adding HEPA filters is great (suggested that counts lower when added in the abstract).... who changes them? How do you manage the high-velocity airflow stream (because putting a filter in does block the airflow to some degree - it's a filter duh...)\
Not that we shouldn't wash/dry our hands and take other bacterial control steps - we should - but microorganisms are everywhere. Even the air of an operating room [nih.gov] has bacterial counts - they're just very, very low. And this shows the deal - it's a trade off. So what I really wonder is putting hands-free air dryers up against towel dispensers - who wins?
It's a cool article, I just wonder and am interested how it might become used in practice.
The next logical step is comparing bacterial counts
This sig for rent.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 18 2018, @11:57PM
At 74, I have problems with bruising due to high-speed hand dryers. So in restaurants, I just grab a few napkins. elsewhere, it's wipe the hands on my pants.