CBC reports that a Canadian man has taken the giant Bell Canada corporation to small claims court after they tried to increase his cable and internet prices despite the phone salesperson promising a fixed price for twenty four months.
The sales agent told (David) Ramsay he could get Bell's Fibe TV and internet services "for $112.90 a month for 24 months" and then said he'd get an "email confirmation of everything that was just discussed."
But when the email arrived, it said prices were actually "subject to change" and that Bell was planning to increase its price for internet service by $5, two months later.
Ramsey, who was self represented, argued that he had a verbal contract with Bell. The judge agreed and ordered Bell to pay Ramsay $1,110 to cover the cost of damages, his time, inconvenience and miscellaneous costs. In the lead up to the trial Bell made two attempts to buy him off with offers of $300, then $1000, but insisted on a non-disclosure agreement. Ramsay refused, hoping that a successful case would lead to many other long-suffering Canadians to launch similar suits.
In Canada Bell, Telus, and Rogers control most of the telephone, wireless, and cable markets, as well as most television, radio, and publishing. Canadians pay among the highest prices of any country for what most people consider some of the worst service.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Tuesday May 01 2018, @10:33AM (2 children)
Here come da judge, here come da judge.
Vellllly intelesting!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @10:52AM
http://searchnut.com/?ncn=b6faa639c5f3b232f5ffa4bf88e80b201525171954&sb=1&pt=2&qs=&st=Here+come+da+judge%2C+here+come+da+judge.++Vellllly+intelesting%21 [searchnut.com]
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @11:13AM
Trump isn’t what we need (neither was Hillary). It is more of this. Many fronts to go.
(Score: 5, Funny) by maxwell demon on Tuesday May 01 2018, @10:39AM (1 child)
So "One ring to bring them all" was just referring to a conference call?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 01 2018, @04:31PM
One ring to bring them all . . .
and in the ARBITRATION bind them.
what about binding arbitration?
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @11:17AM
Let me be the firs to say "Suck it Bell"!!
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @12:53PM (5 children)
"Canadians pay among the highest prices of any country for what most people consider some of the worst service."
Canadian verifies: 100% accurate
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @01:34PM (3 children)
"Canadians pay among the highest prices of any country for what most people consider some of the worst service."
Canadian verifies: 100% accurate
A second Canadian seconds this statement. 100% accurate.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday May 01 2018, @04:34PM
THIS! That right there!
That is why we need to Make America Great Again!
Nobody should be able to out-do America. Not even Canada.
Get on the ball Comcast! Just because you have won numerous awards as "Most Hated Company in America" doesn't mean your job is finished.
When people need help with their phone, instead of dialing 611 they need to dial 666.
Help me FCC, you're my only hope!
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Tuesday May 01 2018, @09:51PM
I don't believe either of you are Canadian. The word "Sorry" was not once mentioned in either post. I call Fake Canadians!
(Score: 2) by dwilson on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:17AM
A third canadian confirms, and a registered soylentnews user to boot.
An AC comment in another story (the comcast one) stated "I currently get 150Mbps from them for $34.99/month. I am not going to sweat them giving someone with TV a bump to 250".
Me? I pay ~$55 CAD/month for 5 Mbps down / 1 Mbps up, DSL. And I'm in one of the better provinces, with some of the better plans.
- D
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:24PM
or where the "me too"'s live, but I'm betting you're all west of New Brunswick.
Where I am, Bell's gigabit fiber is CAD$150 (unbundled, regular price.)
(Score: 5, Interesting) by ledow on Tuesday May 01 2018, @01:28PM (2 children)
It's actually quite easy to win in small claims.
Most of the time, it's not worth paying a lawyer to even turn up to defend such claims.
I'm not at all sure that it's precedent-setting, that takes a much bigger lawsuit, but it's certainly cheap for them to offer $300, $1000 and then pay $1,100 than to bill a lawyer for even a couple of hours, I should think.
People SHOULD take things to small claims more often. I've barely had to threaten it in the past to get better offers/service from companies (strangely, they are vehement about threatening me with lawsuits but never want to actually get that far when I say "Okay, bring it on, because if you don't, I'll file in small claims for myself anyway").
And I wouldn't sign an NDA for a court case for the world. No way, either I'm wrong, or I'm right, and it'll be on public record. I wouldn't get that far if I wasn't already accepting of that.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @02:43PM (1 child)
A particular court's ruling only binds lower courts. Since this is the lowest court there is no binding precedent.
However, there is a "precedent" in the sense of "this shit happened before" and if someone brings a similar case with similar arguments, then until there is more relevant case law, the court is likely to look at this decision when deciding what to do.
If there ends up being multiple inconsistent rulings then an appeals court will eventually hear one of the cases and hopefully settle the matter.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday May 01 2018, @06:13PM
I don't know. An appeal from a small claims court sounds rather unlikely, and the appellate court needs to agree to accept the case. I don't think they're required to take the case.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 01 2018, @01:56PM (8 children)
I may be projecting my own disdain for non-disclosure agreements - but it sounds like that NDA bullshit pissed this guy off as much as anything. "Sure, Mister, we'll pay you a thousand bucks, if you'll just agree to keep your mouth shut!" And, his answer was, "Take your agreement and shove it!"
If something like half a billion North Americans all agree that NDA's suck ass, and we ain't gonna observe them, maybe some good things will happen. Doctor left his stethoscope inside of a temporary orifice? Everyone in the state/province needs to know about it. Jack's Garage blew your car up? Again, everyone in the county needs to know not to take their cars to Jack. Corporate misconduct needs to be exposed, even more than any individual doctor or mechanic. If misconduct isn't exposed, and broadcast far and wide, then there is no misconduct.
Shout it out, Brother! Bell Canada screwed you? Tell the world!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @02:40PM (7 children)
I've never left anything inside an orifice. But I wouldn't be where I am without nondisclosure agreements. Prenuptial agreements. And many other very smart contracts. So much in life is contracts. And winning a contract comes down to having the best lawyers. The smartest and most loyal. This guy got very lucky. Because he won without a lawyer. Although his friends are lawyers. And he didn't get it in writing. Sam Goldwyn said, "a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on." That's so true. ALWAYS GET IT IN WRITING!!!!
(Score: 1, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday May 01 2018, @02:41PM (2 children)
Website failing very badly!!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01 2018, @04:07PM (1 child)
The only thing failing around here is you.
The website works for me. Sounds like a PEBKAC issue. Error code id ten tee.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:06AM
I did Submit, it didn't Submit. A weird cyber page came up. That I never saw before. It asked me if I want to Redo, I did Redo. And my tweet showed up as a tweet from Anonymous!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Tuesday May 01 2018, @03:51PM (3 children)
It's just easier to not believe salesmen at all, and record conversations (where legal - in the UK, anyone can record any conversation that they are a party to, without consent or notification of the other parties, and I don't understand jurisdictions where that's not true). See how many of them will make that claim on a recording or paper and it tells you exactly what you need to know - salesman are liars. Unless it's in black and white, you ain't getting it. So skip the middle-man entirely and ask for the paper, or just book it on the website like anyone would do if the salesman HADN'T knocked on the door at all. I don't believe that a salesman earning X% commission on top can get you the product / service any cheaper than you can yourself.
However, if the guy had recorded that conversation, it would indeed have been an open-and-shut case and would never have got to court.
I've had any number of things like that (with them threatening ME with court, at which point I produce the original copy of their letter / recording of their agent / video screenshots etc., and then suddenly they are begging me not to take THEM to court).
Make a record. If someone won't confirm it "on-record" / "in-writing" / etc., that's because they are lying. Then you'll see just how much of sales is literally nothing more than lying to customers. This is why when I request something by email, and I get a telephone reply, I'm instantly sceptical. "Of course we can do that...". It means nothing until I have recorded evidence from you saying that.
What we need is a culture where your words are guaranteed to come back to bite you, where everyone records their phone calls by default and does business by signed email. There's no reason that a person's phone cannot record EVERY conversation, if they so wish, automatically (or at the press of a button if they want privacy by default). I always think of that whenever I hear "Your call may be recorded". Nope. My call is DEFINITELY recorded. I assure you. You just don't know that.
You can't rely on liars to abide by their own honesty in such regards.
I have screwed suppliers to the wall for this... literally digging out years-old emails that quite clearly state my requirements and the price given for those, and then watching them try to wheedle their way out of it. "Oh, that was a mistake". Well, that's a shame. Because you had plenty of time to notice and rectify it and didn't bother until I was the one complaining to you. Even going through their official quote / purchase order / etc. systems, so it's not like some rogue employee did it on the sly.
(The problem with "always get it in writing" is that then nobody gives you ANYTHING in writing.
Places like ordinary retail, consumer products, service contracts like this, etc. won't give you such things in writing because the writing is always just "what our lawyers approve" and nothing more. Every special offer, deal, etc. will evaporate under such circumstances.
Literally every claim ever made disappears into a bill for doing so, or the void of "never gonna happen" the second you ask for it in writing.)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Appalbarry on Tuesday May 01 2018, @05:08PM (2 children)
So skip the middle-man entirely and ask for the paper, or just book it on the website like anyone would do if the salesman HADN'T knocked on the door at all.
Two problems. The first is that it is literally impossible to figure out exactly what you're buying, and what you're paying for via the wireless company websites in Canada. It cannot be done because some things simply aren't posted there, or you're forced into packages that aren't fully delineated.
Second, you will never,, ever get the best deal without suffering through an hour on the phone with a salesperson who will be determined to up sell you. Off the shelf packages are for suckers, and always give you less for more money.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday May 01 2018, @08:57PM (1 child)
An hour of my time is worth more than any monthly saving that's possible on a phone connection.
Especially if the saving is "I just won't use you."
The first problem is actually illegal in any sensible country. But I just Googled, say, Bell's packages and they were quite clear on the pricing page.
The second problem is (also) highly frowned upon to the point where most places are forced to advertise "utility" deals on comparison sites to even be considered by most people.
That your consumer law sucks is sad. That you pay something like $80 a month for 1Gb data in a developed country (I just Googled some random places) is just pathetic, to be honest.
Honestly, you have a bad deal. If you just keep giving them money "because you have no choice" then you'll never escape that.
I pay £20 a month (that's about $35) for a SIM card and my phone company don't even bother me unless I'm using 9Gb or more (and that's seen as a crappy deal for people who don't use much data). For $80, I could quite literally get 100Gb of data a month, free calls and texts to just about anything, and nowadays free EU roaming (including data) in 20+ countries.
But I still wouldn't be arguing on the phone for an hour to even bother. I would rather spend twice that just to avoid them by some less sufficient method entirely.
(Score: 2) by Appalbarry on Wednesday May 02 2018, @12:21AM
Yes, it's that bad in Canada.
But I just Googled, say, Bell's packages and they were quite clear on the pricing page.
Ah, don't be so sure. For instance, I signed up with Telus a couple of years ago for wireless and was flabbergasted to discover that my (then) $50 a month included a voicemail box that would only accept three messages at a time, and then delete them after a fixed number of days. You need to wade through many pages to find any reference to that limit, and last time I looked there was no mention that they would charge you an extra $10 month of you needed a real functioning voicemail service.
Any of these three companies will usually try to shortchange you on things that should automatic and unquestioned.