from the now-about-those-tags-on-my-pillow... dept.
Submitted via IRC for SoyCow3941
The FTC says that if companies don't change their warranty practices, it may take 'legal action.'
The Federal Trade Commission put six companies on notice in early April for illegally telling customers that getting third-party repairs voids the warranty on their electronics. You've seen the stickers before and read the messages buried in end user license agreements. Plastered on the back of my PlayStation 4 is a little sticker that says "warranty void if removed." That's illegal.
Motherboard has obtained copies of the letters via a Freedom of Information Act request and has learned the names of the six companies that were warned. They are Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hyundai, HTC, and computer hardware manufacturer ASUS.
[...] The FTC believes all six companies are violating the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which states that no manufacturer charging more than $5 for a product may put repair restrictions on a device its offering a warranty on. Despite being illegal, many companies have such restrictions. Apple, noticeably absent in this round of of warning letters, often steers customers away from third-party repair services.
"Warranty language that implies to a consumer acting reasonably under the circumstances that warranty coverage requires the consumer to purchase an article or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name is similarly deceptive and prohibited," the FTC letters said.
[...] In three cases, the letters also specifically say that the use of warranty-void-if-removed stickers or "seals" break the law; language in the Playstation 4, HTC, and Asus warranties mention that the warranties are void if a seal is removed, something that the FTC mentioned it is "particularly concerned" about.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:13AM (17 children)
Now, we need the FTC to firmly place both boots in the "right to repair" camp. They need to address Apple, first and foremost, and Apple's warfare against third party repair shops.
Some will ask, "Why Apple, and not companies blah blah blah?"
I say Apple, because they are so high profile, and so very anti-competitive. Apple is the wealthiest/strongest/politically connected adversary to consumer's rights. Take on the biggest, baddest opponent to start with, which will intimidate all the rest.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:32AM (5 children)
Also -
That's what small claims courts are for.
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/04/30/2345244 [soylentnews.org]
If you believe that Megacorp is responsible for your problem with their product, but they refuse to make it right, just go to small claims court. If Megacorp, or Evilcorp, lose thousands of small claims around the country (around the world) they WILL modify how they do business. It's all fine and dandy to make several hundred dollars off of millions of customers. It looks great on the spreadsheets. But when half of those customers win claims that take back those several hundred, plus a couple hundred more, the spreadsheets get blown to hell.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by crafoo on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:22AM (4 children)
Didn't you read the shrink-wrapped EULA? You must use arbitration and not the courts.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ewk on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:03AM (1 child)
In any decent country the law usually trumps the EULA...
I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:54AM
But I'm in America, where corporations have more rights than consumers.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 03 2018, @01:44PM (1 child)
So - you take them to small claims court AGAIN for attempting to usurp your rights as an American citizen. My signature doesn't appear on any EULA. Instead, I crossed out the parts I didn't like. Hey, if they can write a contract without my input, I can alter it without their input. Looky, right there, I've used strikethrough on that entire paragraph, these two sentences, half of page fifteen, three more paragraphs on page 97 . . . . .
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:16AM
I agree with you. Just noting that EULAs have been enforced in courts, and that everyone wrote arbitration clauses into their cell phone contracts and whatnot a few years ago. We need some backbone in the FTC and some actual representatives of the citizens and not the corporations in Congress.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:56AM (10 children)
It's weird, I'm a firm believer in "right to repair," but after 50 years of "warranty void if removed" in my face, I had come to accept it as just the way things are.
In many ways, this is too little too late - 40 years ago anybody with a few basic tools could have a chance of repairing just about anything sold on the consumer marketplace - maybe they couldn't fix vacuum tubes, but most other things were able to be desoldered, replaced, fixed with a hammer and some paint, etc. I suppose oscilloscopes were always pricey, but most other repair tools weren't.
Today, if you can even get something open, often you need tools that cost far more than the thing being diagnosed/repaired, microscope vision and un-naturally steady hands to have a chance to fix it.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:21AM (8 children)
false.
thruhole caps (electrolytics) are, by far, the most common failure component and they are super easy to source and replace.
connectors can be reglued to the pcb and traces repaired with wire wrap wire.
I wholly reject the 'no user service...' bullshit stickers. who are they to say what I can and can't fix.
anyone supporting the vendor's side is either A vendor; or they just don't understand what the notion of 'land fill!' means. (hint: its a bad thing when we keep throwing things out that COULD have been fixed).
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 03 2018, @11:48AM (7 children)
How many thruhole caps are there in your cellphone?
Even bigger stuff like PCBs found in new cars and going more and more to SMD only, as small as possible even when they don't need to be.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday May 03 2018, @01:36PM (4 children)
They *do* need to be: thru-hole components are a PITA to work with, and don't play well with automated assembly equipment. For places where they still use electrolytic caps, they've largely moved to SMT versions of them (which are basically thru-hole ones stuck on a little plastic holder that keeps it upright with solderable terminals sticking out the side which reflow nicely), even though they're more expensive than the thru-hole versions: the labor savings more than pays for the cost difference in components.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kazzie on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:33PM (3 children)
Speaking as a hobbyist / bodger / fixer of things with a soldering iron in the shed, I consider the surface mount stuff to be the PITA.
I've fixed a few Game Gears that suffered from leaky (SMT) capacitors, soldering through-hole replacement s to the board surface, but getting my wife's Mac Classic II working after that is still sulking. (I need to open it up again and do another pass at trying to clean the electrolyte off all the nooks and cranneis of the board, I suppose.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:21PM
Your problem is that you are trying to attach through-hole parts to SMD pads. I would be worried about the pads being ripped off the board too with this arrangement. Why not get an equivalent replacement? Then soldering it on would be easy.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday May 03 2018, @06:30PM (1 child)
I've done tons of soldering, and SMT is far, far easier than thru-hole for rework, unless you're talking about BGAs. The key is getting a hot-air rework station. Try desoldering a DIP chip without damaging it; I can remove an SOJ/SOIC chip in a few seconds with my rework station and then replace it in a few more.
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday May 04 2018, @06:09AM
I've desoldered a fair few DIP-chip RAM chips on 8-bit micros. As they're already faulty I'm not generally fussed whether they get more damaged, but I invariably get them out in one (physical) piece. It probably isn't as quick as your use of a rework station, but I don't own one of those.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:18PM (1 child)
Hand-soldering SMD parts is not particularly difficult. You will probably want a couple extra tools compared to through-hole work:
- soldering iron
- flux pen
- tweezers
- solder wick
- solder wire (as thin as reasonable)
- jeweler's loupe (for visual inspection)
A meter with a good continuity test function is helpful when inspecting for shorts.
For very small packages like 0402 (metric) a microscope is probably needed. Still, I have seen people hand-solder these successfully.
SMD passives tend to be substantially cheaper than their through-hole counterparts, so you can save money too.
A bigger problem is that SMD passives are frequently not labeled, which can make it difficult to determine suitable replacements for failed parts if you lack a schematic.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:48PM
Tell me how you feel after working on a densely laid out board with 0402s and a few 0201s that you have to do anything with.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:23AM
Well this is your official notice that it's not too late.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:54AM
They ain't coming into my house to remove no damn stickers.
Noooope!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:55AM (4 children)
I don't have the first clue how to find privately held hardware companies for Soggy Jobs [soggy.jobs]. Can you clue me in as to where I can look?
What would be Reelee Kewal would be a list of fabless semiconductor firms.
I personally prefer to work for small companies not because I have any faith in stock options but because I can walk right into the CEO's office to point out he's... ill-informed...
However many others do want to work for startups so they can play Wall Street Roullete.
Please reply elsewhere than in this story - either email incoming@soggy.jobs [mailto] or post in my latest diary [soylentnews.org].
I Shall Name My Firstborn After Y'all.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:58AM (3 children)
Follow the fabs, who's taking over the big boys' chip foundries when they move on to the next generation? Then, who is doing design for the companies that use those.
I doubt you'll find many in the US. Maxim comes to mind, but they're hardly small.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 03 2018, @05:37AM (2 children)
Googling for "list of fabs" did not yield insight but then I tried "list of wafer fabs".
BEHOLD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants [wikipedia.org]
I'll start by listing just each company's headquarters city then I'll link all each location where a fab might be found.
Ultimately I want to list *every* location for *every* tech company but that's not likely to happen until I have the cash for some minions.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by turgid on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:25PM (1 child)
Don't Google "list of wafer biscuits."
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Friday May 04 2018, @02:46AM
I needed that laugh
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by deimios on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:17AM (1 child)
Well you see Mr. FTC, the product is actually rented, so we're not charging for a product and the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act doesn't apply.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:01AM
Show me the rental agreement I signed. Don't have one? Well, guess it was sold after all.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:07AM (1 child)
Dead phone batteries.
Also charges - a couple enterprising chaps asked to borrow mine then split the scene compleltely when I wasn't looking.
In Portland at least every homeless person has a mobile phone, even if they're the free ones that are commonly known as "Government Spy Phones".
Feature phone batteries don't cost much but whenever I had that kind of cash in the days of yore I would use it to buy coffee so I could stay out of the rain all day long - just one coffee and most cafes will let you do that - as well as have high-speed internet, power sockets and a restroom.
Portland's Bud Clark Commons - more commonly known as "TPI" for the Transition Projects Resource Center - has lots of power sockets yet there is always a queue of homeless folk waiting to recharge their aged mobile device batteries.
Just now I mailed their donations facilitator to suggest she list mobile device batteries among the list of items they accept. I also said I'd be happy to donate the tools required to change iPhone batteries as well as the batteries of other Sealed For Your Protection gadgets from http://ifixit.com/ [ifixit.com]
(iFixit's site has the instructions for replacing damn near every component found in damn near every device. The instructions are fee to all comers; they earn their keep by selling replacement parts and tools. I bought a Spudger and a really tiny Philips screwdriver from them so I could remove the PCIexpress Flash Storage from my mid-2012 MacBook Pro. I then mounted the PCIe card in an external storage adapter that I purchased from someone that at the time was the first hit for "SATA Cables" but now I can't find them. (I still have their invoice; I'll link their site Real Soon Now.)
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:08AM
FTFM
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Thursday May 03 2018, @01:29PM
The FTC should force these companies to pay for all repairs for anything that has a "warranty void if removed" sticker, and this should also be retroactive for all devices they've sold with these stickers, as well as requiring them to reimburse all customers in the past for any repairs they've had done to these devices by the manufacturer or "authorized service facility".
This is the problem with government regulation like this: it doesn't adequately penalize large companies for bad and illegal actions as we see here. It's just a slap on the wrist and doesn't fix all the wrongdoing they did in the past.
(Score: 4, Informative) by requerdanos on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:48PM
TFS presents a one-sided hack job.
Like most of us, I strongly support right-to-repair. I think everyone should.
BUT. Here are a few problems I found.
TFA Link 1 [ftc.gov] says:
Nothing about illegal stickers. One reason for this is that Microsoft, for example, has a "seal" on their Xbox products that says nothing about voiding a warranty. It's not illegal to put seals on items to see whether they have been opened; this can help direct a technician to more or less likely causes of failure, or let a buyer of a secondhand item know more about its service history. There is nothing illegal about Microsoft's stickers.
TFA link 2 [vice.com] says:
Which is simply a lie--Microsoft's stickers don't say that.
Skeptical? You should be! See for yourself (photos): [Xbox One Sticker] [logic-sunrise.com] [Xbox 360 Sticker] [freworld.info]
TFA2 and TFS ominously say that...
Apple, whose practices I generally despise, are absent because they do not use warranty-void stickers and their warranty does not say you can't use third party repair services and so there is nothing on this topic to "warn" them about. It isn't illegal nor immoral for Apple to say they think they do a better job than outside service providers and they recommend using only Apple, even if you disagree with them.
Sony uses the illegal stickers. Several companies have illegal clauses in their warranty text. Isn't that bad enough? Do we have to lie and say everyone uses them, and puts them on stickers? If we do, we are easily shown to be fearmongering liars [vice.com].
We as right-to-repair advocates do not need people lying and spewing FUD to try to 'advance our cause'. it makes us look like unreliable idiots.
If you are doing this, please stop.