The World Socialist Web Site reports
Injured Amazon worker Shannon Allen spoke to the International Amazon Workers Voice about the conditions at the DFW-7 fulfillment center in Haslet, Texas. Shannon described brutal working conditions, authoritarian-style surveillance of workers, and management demands to maintain frenetic rates of speed.
Shannon, 49, lives in Azle, Texas, a small town on the western outskirts of Fort Worth. She was injured while working at Amazon, returned to the job, and was injured again at the same workstation. Physically unable to continue work, Shannon now faces homelessness on top of her injuries, but she is determined to "fight or die".
[...] To maximize her income, Shannon volunteered for the overnight shift on Saturday through Thursday. The shift begins at 6:30 at night and ends at 5:00 in the morning. However, once Shannon received her first paycheck, she realized that her pay was $13 per hour for the weekend shifts, not the $13.50 that had been promised.
[...] Shannon worked as a "counter", whose job was to check the work of the pickers and stowers. Fail to catch a mistake, and become a target of a punitive system of "quality errors" and "write-ups".
Not long after starting to work at Amazon, Shannon began to recognize what she called the "dirty secrets". "These are the things they don't tell you about when you're hired."
Every time workers leave the facility, they are subjected to an invasive search. "You wait in line with a bucket like at the airport", she said. A worker is required to take off belt, shoes, and hat. Bags are sent through a conveyor belt and the worker goes through a full body scan. "If you set it off, you have to go through a second search, and they wand you front to back."
In a 10-hour shift, workers are permitted two 15-minute breaks and one 30-minute break for lunch. To go outside on a break, workers must submit to the search and go through the security line. "The lines to get outside on your 15-minute break are 20 to 30 deep on each line, and there are only two lines." Meanwhile, the breaks are timed from "scan to scan" at a worker's station, and workers are admonished, "Not one second more."
[...] "The heat is sweltering." Shannon described fans here and there, pointing down the aisles where workers walk to get to their stations, but not toward the workers to help them cool off. "Whoever thought of that design was a complete idiot", Shannon said. "Because we get no relief from the heat with them pointed down the aisle."
Temperatures reached 80, 85, and 90 degrees Fahrenheit. "In the summertime, it gets over 100 degrees in there", Shannon said. "Here is another genius idea. They have these signs hanging down that have our station numbers on them. These signs are probably as big as a 19-inch TV. They are in front of the fans and it blows the sign constantly. And we get no relief from the heat."
"July and August are the absolute worst", Shannon continued. "It was nothing to see an ambulance up at Amazon four to five times a night." Workers dropped at their stations, physically unable to continue working. "On my shift", Shannon said, "we were picking people up from heat exhaustion."
[...] In addition to having "expectations of the human body that are unrealistic", Shannon said the company expected workers to manage with faulty equipment and constant demands to meet strict time limits. Attempting to work at high speeds around faulty equipment was a common cause of injury.
Related Stories
Amazon announces $15 minimum wage for all US employees
Amazon is raising its minimum wage to $15 an hour for all US employees. The change takes effect November 1 and applies to full-time, part-time and temporary workers. Amazon says the $15 minimum wage will benefit more than 250,000 Amazon employees, plus 100,000 seasonal workers.
"We listened to our critics, thought hard about what we wanted to do, and decided we want to lead," said Jeff Bezos, Amazon's founder and CEO. "We're excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us."
The change applies to Whole Foods and all other subsidiary employees.
Amazon also said its public policy team will begin lobbying for an increase in the federal minimum wage, which has been $7.25 an hour since 2009.
See also: Bernie Sanders praises Jeff Bezos on Amazon $15 minimum wage
Previously: 'Stop BEZOS' Bill to tax Amazon for Underpaying Workers
Related: Injured Amazon Worker Describes High-Tech Dystopia Inside Texas Warehouse
(Score: 2, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:39AM (17 children)
If @amazon [twitter.com] ever had to pay fair wages, its stock would crash and it would CRUMBLE like a paper bag. The Fake News #AmazonWashingtonPost [twitter.com] scam is saving it!
(Score: 5, Informative) by ledow on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:50AM (15 children)
Strange that the other markets (e.g. Europe) don't see their Amazon crash and crumble, isn't it?
P.S. In Europe, you need to abide by working-hours laws:
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205 [europa.eu]
which would make the working HOURS described illegal for night-work, let alone the workload, rest period, etc.
And, yes, there's been a case over exactly the security-procedure thing. The employer pays for it and it comes out of their paid time, not the employees free time.
Seriously, America really screw the working person and don't care. Other continents don't have that problem and account for just as much of the market.
The fan stuff? Really, that's just petty ex-employee whining.
But the ambulances? Why did nobody report that? That would be noted and the HSE (Health and Safety Executive) would be notified in the UK if ambulances were made to attend disproportionately and in direct relation to working conditions.
Maybe because the workers / company have to pay the insurance to cover the ambulances too?
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:58AM (6 children)
Oh, and "minimum working wage" guaranteed by law to be greater than $13.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:21PM (5 children)
That's why amazon is an American company and not German.
(Score: 4, Funny) by PiMuNu on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:10PM (2 children)
I thought Amazon was an Irish company.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:22PM (1 child)
I thought Amazon was a company in South America.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:31PM
You're thinking of Brazil. [imdb.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by ledow on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:13PM
Strangely, they are German:
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=30640881 [bloomberg.com]
And English. And quite a lot of other nationalities. Amazon (US) is just a particularly horrible employee-abusive member of the franchise.
And they're all using the same brand and deploying the same datacentres and offering the same services and paying the local taxes (now at least!), and still complying with the local employment laws, and still making money for the Amazon brand.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 11 2018, @11:46AM
In Germany minimum wage is €8.84, or about US$10.55.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:35PM (6 children)
in a nutshell:
- republicans are the party of the rich class, the 'controlling' class, the class that has no class (sorry, but its true) and they are a group of people that could not care less about their fellow man. they are all about the top 1% getting richer and dividing us even more, keeping us in-fighting.
- poor ignorant people tended to vote for the R party. seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? the party of the rich supported by the ultra poor. here's how they pulled it off: RELIGION. that's right, that's the secret sauce. the R's are also the party of christianity (or, so they would have us believe) and they constantly reinforce the church theory that 'dont rise up against your betters now; you'll have your time in heaven after you die'. seriously, that is forced into their brain every sunday, in one way or another.
- along with religion is the synthetic religion stuff; the anti-gay, anti-abortion and even anti-black feelings that the R's try to justify
add all that up and you can understand why so many americans CONSTANTLY vote against their own best interests. reason: they are fooled into it by their weakness (fear of death, need for a god in their lives, etc). once you give in to such delusions, the road is paved to shove more bullshit into their brains.
the R's were 'smart' to attach themselves to relgion. and religion attaches itself to young people, and the cycle repeats since few have the strength to reject it, when they are so young and so many stupid ideas are forced into their heads.
I can see non-americans being confused about why america constantly votes against its own interests. this is 100% the reason. the D's are not a perfect party, but they are nowhere near the evil that the R's are; in terms of conning people to vote for things that completely help the othe side and push their own side even more downward, over time. the R's really grabbed onto something and for the past 30 years or so, they have not given up on that idea since it works so well for them ;( ;(
all I can do is sit here, watch it all and sigh (and cry). its hard to watch your own country being forced backward by the rich bastards, who care for nothing but themselves.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:42PM
stfu with your partisan bs
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:19PM (3 children)
Thinking like that just cost you lot an election to Donald Fucking Trump. Don't you think it might be time to reexamine your shit?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:25PM
I wondered why he never uses his middle name.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:18PM (1 child)
Keep telling yourself that. "We lot" didn't want Trump or Clinton, but the DNC fixed that shit cause they didn't want a REAL popular politician. Without the religious right wing nutters Trump would have had no chance even with a good percentage of people voting for him to give the establishment the middle finger. Need I remind you he lost the popular vote? The entire country needs to rethink their shit and get moving on election reform and busting down the DNC / GOP duopoly.
Thanks for playing Buzztard, trigger harder next time maybe it'll make up the difference.
(Score: 4, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:43PM
Oh, I get it. You're regretting that whole Listen and Believe doctrine you've been pushing. I mean, otherwise you just called Democrat voters utter morons who have to be lead around by the nose.
It also greatly amuses me that you're bitching about Bernie not getting the nod for losing the popular vote but bitching about Trump getting the office even though he did. This doesn't cause conflict in your brain even a little, does it?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:39PM
> here's how they pulled it off: RELIGION
Religions say anything. You meant Christian religion.
underpaid? thou shalt not steal
overworked? six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work
everything sacrificed to mammon? thou shalt have no other gods before me
So, even before "that ye love one another; as I have loved you" Jesus, who did not treat his disciples this way, it is apparent that no love for god is displayed in this context. Do you blame math when the waiter overcharges you? Then why do you people always blame religion in these contexts?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:10PM
Question 1: Is there a pricing difference between the US and European market, to cover any legislation?
Question 2: Wouldn't it be possible for Amazon in Europe to have "a possible deficit" covered by a surplus from Amazon US?
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday May 10 2018, @07:25PM
And of course, the great state of Texas wouldn't have put such a handsome, strong, and smart man in the office if they all didn't know that global warming is a Chinese conspiracy. Fake news! Stay strong, Texas warehouse workers!
Seriously, I'm thinking maybe they should simulate these conditions at the next Amazon shareholder's meeting.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Entropy on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:10PM (5 children)
Get searched on your own time? No thank you. If you want to search workers then you pay them for that. If you want to drug test workers, then you pay them for that. They are not required to do what you want them to do on their own time that's how employment works.
Now including crap like this nonsense--
Shannon worked as a "counter", whose job was to check the work of the pickers and stowers. Fail to catch a mistake, and become a target of a punitive system of "quality errors" and "write-ups".
Is just silly. You mess up at your job and there are penalties. Welcome to the world? I guess education trying to make even the most mediocre into a "winner of a prize" is taking it's toll.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by frojack on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:54PM (3 children)
I wonder how they get away with this and nobody calls OSHA on them, nobody ever asks Bezos about this in any interview, nobody hauls him before congress.
He's been treating employees this way through multiple political administrations, so don't bother to play that political party card.
He's a political liberal and a business conservative. He gets a pass from all regulations from both sides.
Why is that?
Where does his money flow?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:21PM (1 child)
Amazon is just an extension of the surveillance state. They have your communications and they desperately want everyone to purchase everything through the single service.
With their magic algorithms they will identify potential threats years ahead of time, put thousands / millions of people on restriction lists, sell data to employers so they only get happy shiny sheeple, and of course they will miss the real targets and terrorism will get worse since that is what such a system breeds.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:59PM
Bezos is one of the riches men in the world. He is also a major contributor of the DNC. He also owns a major news outlet. GEE wonder what is going on...? I really do? I just can not figure it out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 11 2018, @08:06AM
They aren't Amazon workers, they are contractors. The contracting company can dissolve in a blink of an eye and a new one with all the same employees in the same positions is formed a few blinks later. When it's inspection time, a new crewed is bused over and they praise the company and working conditions as the best company ever. The next day the homeless workers are back at their job.
There were reports of this years ago. No one cared then, no one cares now. CEOs don't go to jail nor the people who hire these types of companies. Instead, they get bonuses and promotions for reducing the company's cost.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:49PM
The court disagrees with you [latimes.com], unfortunately. Seems like this would have to be overturned or properly legislated out.
(Score: 5, Informative) by hereweareagain on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:20PM (10 children)
There is literally NO REASON to maintain this kind of hostile work environment. Get some reporters in there to tour the facility.
Bad management needs to be exposed, brought down, fined, and possibly run out of town on a rail. Treat your workers like valuable human beings - and with dignity!
--I'm willing to admit I just *might* be wrong... Are you?
(Score: 2, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:38PM (8 children)
You're missing some context about the temperatures at least. Texans function just fine at 100-110F; those are normal summer temperatures there. They don't really even start complaining until it breaks 115F.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DannyB on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:30PM (7 children)
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away . . .
I grew up until my mid teens in Las Vegas. Temps of 110+ F were a fact of life. It was very hot. People tolerated it. Adapted to it. The sidewalks were sometimes too hot to walk on (yes, really).
I can assure you that people DID complain about it. Even if it was bearable.
And A/C was pretty much universal everywhere. In a climate like that, not having A/C or at the very least swamp coolers with an abundance of fans is inexcusable. Just like having indoor plumbing is considered a requirement for your workers.
Amazon should have to provide decent working conditions, even if it increases costs. And managers need to have some minimum IQ requirement.
Maybe managers should get a nice six-month offsite training at a hard labor prison camp, and then come back to work.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:38PM (6 children)
Right but there's a difference between everyday complaining about the weather and serious complaining whereupon you let it stop you from getting what needs done done.
I'm not saying they shouldn't. It would almost certainly even increase productivity more than enough to warrant the cost. I'm just saying Texans working in 100F is not an unpossible or even out of the ordinary situation like the chick interviewed was claiming.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:13PM (5 children)
I agree with that.
In my growing up, people worked in the heat. But employers, and everyone generally, tried to make conditions as bearable as possible. Amazon should try that.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:42PM (4 children)
Individual workstation fans and enough ice water jugs to last the day for everyone would be the bare minimum I'd go with. Keeping the place 70F would be difficult as hell with trucks going in and out all day long but keeping things more tolerable should be quite doable.
As for theft prevention measures, if you're hiring thieves, you're doing things wrong right from the start. Hire good people. Demand good work. Pay according to the value of the work you receive. And remember that having a more important job may make you more valuable to the company but it does not make you a better person. Shitty bosses often forget this last bit; good ones never do.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:07PM (3 children)
At last check, comfortable working conditions and respect were really good for productivity, and good morale reduced turnover, training and mistakes.
But in a country partly founded on the profits from slave labor, who are we to challenge traditions?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:27PM (2 children)
The truth of the matter is you get more value out of paying motivated workers than you do out of paying less for unmotivated assclowns or not paying slave labor at all. Those who recognize this will always have an advantage over those who don't. Whether they choose to exploit this advantage like good capitalists or piss it away like moronic altruists is up to them.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:26PM (1 child)
I don't think the data will be likely to hold up, training warehouse workers isn't that big of a time hit and keeping the volume of products moving is preferable even with mistakes. Like slavery the net benefit for society is worse, but for the owners it gives their bank accounts a nice bump. Why do you think they have performance metrics? Cut the dead weight when the human can no longer cope. Everything else costs money.
You think coal companies cared about making conditions safer for workers? Cheaper to fire/bury a worker and get a new one than to pay for safety precautions.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:47PM
Poorly compensated workers perform worse than well compensated ones. They are not motivated to do right by the company like people paid well are. There is a sweet spot that you have to find but it will never be shit wages and bad treatment.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by VLM on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:15PM
You seem to think this means
But the real reason for legacy media streaming constant journalist stories like this is because Sears is out of business and bye bye toys r us and soon no more jc pennys and no boston store soon enough and all those places heavily advertised on legacy media, and the purpose of legacy boomer journalism is to sell advertising, and Amazon isn't buying advertising, so the journalists are getting kicked in the pocketbook are a little butthurt about the whole situation, leading to infinity anti-amazon stories about working conditions sucking.
The fact of the matter is these are relatively poor working conditions for middle class boomer legacy media addicts who sit in cubes all day, but the pay and working conditions aren't half bad for an Army soldier or migrant farm worker or illegal alien factory worker. Yes, yes, compared to remote software developer contractor, its not that nice, but comparing apples to apples its a fairly typical warehouse environment, its a problem with warehouse environment employment not specifically a problem with Amazon.
A bad analogy (or maybe good) would be reading some propaganda like Uncle Tom's Cabin and missing the point by demanding based on that book that one or two plantation owners get punished; thats not really the intended point of that particular example of propaganda. There's nothing wrong or unusual about Amazon; what sucks is their whole industry.
Some of my bias is when I was young a coworker's girlfriend worked at a department store warehouse; the stories sound pretty much like a early 90s department store warehouse with a different name. I worked at a major printing facility (think, junkmail, not so much books or magazines) with multiple couple hundred foot long printing presses; this is normal working conditions. Its actually very unusual in the history of humanity to have HVAC or shade in one's workplace. 99% of most of the anti-amazon stories compress down to "its a warehouse job" leaving at most 1% amazon specific.
In some ways the worst possible outcome for the employees would be to run amazon out of a city. Look at the supply and demand situation for the remaining warehouse jobs; however shitty working at Amazon is today, it'll be 10x worse working at XYZ ABC Inc after amazon is run out of town.
They never really discuss how there's no dignity or respect. They sell an environment and imply that means there's no respect or dignity. Anyone who's ever worked a labor job or been in the military knows there is no strict connection between shitty working conditions and respectful relationships or enjoying the company of your coworkers, subordinates, and superiors. Their target market for this propaganda is imaginative people who's sole experience with manual labor or even skilled labor is reading "The Jungle" while attending a small liberal arts college. I'm willing to accept and agree with the endless repeated claims that warehouse work is a physically near intolerable environment, surely all large workplaces have a small number of agitators who are unhappy, but I don't accept that at least mentally or workplace culturally its necessarily a bad place to work. One loud person with a legacy media provided megaphone seems to think so; but for every one like her, there's many thousands who apparently disagree with her or don't agree in full.
Other than legacy media pouting that "Sears is bankrupt therefore not buying advertising so F Amazon", for an infinite number of substitutions to "Sears", I'm not sure there's really any story at all.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:22PM (65 children)
Honey, sweety, darlin, I find it very hard to believe that they're now making Texans who can't handle working in hundred degree heat. Maybe you should move up north so you can be with the rest of your fragile yankee brothers and sisters.
I'm not for making conditions for employees any more shitty than they have to be but I've seen crews of Texans work in 130+ (sealed up office building, no climate control, no fans) all day long for weeks without having a single medical issue. It wasn't exactly pleasant but my Okie ass hung in there with them without issue too. The up side was, it made the 110 and breezy it was outside when you got off work downright refreshing.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Touché) by loonycyborg on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:36PM (39 children)
I imagine if I worked in 100 degrees heat I'd boil. Literally. Because I don't grok Fahrenheit scale.
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:40PM (38 children)
Which is odd. Fahrenheit is scaled to what humans can reasonably exist in rather than something arbitrary and useless in daily life like the freezing and boiling points of water.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:55PM (2 children)
"Fahrenheit is an obsolete scale invented by a visceral lunatic, based on salty water and 'blood heat', with 64 degrees between blood and iced water only because it was easier for him to draw the little marks that way. When something's based on laziness, a hot body and salty fluids, it's porn, not science."
-- Luke McKinney, Cracked.com
(Score: 3, Funny) by VLM on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:18PM (1 child)
Hmm how come the (((professors))) at college and uni hate imperial units of measure and are all metric? Something to do with the French Revolution and Metric being more important than mere pr0n positivism, probably.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:52PM
Piss off back to the basement. Who let you out??
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:58PM (20 children)
"The lower defining point, 0 °F, was established as the temperature of a solution of brine made from equal parts of ice, water and salt (ammonium chloride). [wikipedia.org]"
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:04PM (19 children)
What is used for a constant reference point is irrelevant and arbitrary. What the scale fits usefully to is what matters and human habitability is several orders of magnitude more relevant the freezing and boiling points of water to the majority of humanity.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:25PM (16 children)
Keep telling yourself that.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:28PM (15 children)
I will, thanks. Unless you're a chemist or a fisherman, I doubt you've measured the temperature of any water in the past ten years.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:16PM (4 children)
how about a geek that water cools his computer?
or grows hydroponically and is controlling the temperature of the water?
or has an aquarium and needs to keep the fish from turning into stew?
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:45PM (3 children)
1) Are the freezing and boiling points relevant to any of those?
2) Wouldn't a finer-grained scale be of more utility in all of them?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:49PM (2 children)
Can you guess the temperature to the nearest 1 degree F? I doubt it.
OTOH, most of my family can guess it to one degree C with a very high success rate.
When younger (she is now 92) my mother could do it to one degree in either, but I never met anyone else who could.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:42PM (1 child)
Yes, indeed I can between 50 and 90F all year round. During the winter I'm better at spotting a one degree change below that range and during the summer I'm better at spotting one above it. You get out of practice at the extremes because they're not there to experience most of the time.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 11 2018, @12:11AM
Well, looky what we have here, boys! A human thermometer! I think we should test him out at some temperature extremes. Just for "calibration" purposes, mind you.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:33PM (9 children)
Disclaimer: I might be disqualified because I'm a scientist.
The temperature scales are arbitrary, so it shouldn't really matter unless your math skills are so poor that you can't handle numbers with a decimal point (if you even need that level of precision). Non-science related measuring: yogurt making, beer brewing, bread making, precision cooking (e.g. with an immersion circulator), baking, and food Pasteurization (for babies, the elderly, or immunodeficient).
(Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:22PM
The whole argument is very boomer; older generations had to pick up a slide rule and do some mental addition or subtraction so they whined about the labor being forced upon them, whereas younger generations click a checkbox in LabView or check a localization setting on their PC/phone and the topic no longer matters because its effortless. Or for the lazy, "Alexa" ba ding "whats 70 degrees farenheit in celsius" "70F is blah blah point blah C" or very similar dialogue
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:47PM (7 children)
As far as that goes, you're exactly correct. I'm just saying that having the first hundred degree span for the most commonly used temperature measurement purpose as opposed to one used several orders of magnitude less often is probably the way we should go.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:32PM (4 children)
I don't actually really get why so many people get bent out of shape over the temperature scales (besides laziness and resistance to change). I doubt that the graduation of whole numbers on temperature scales really matters that much, since people either have a precise target in mind (e.g. 130F steak, 37C yeast starter) or precision is ignored (reporting outdoor temperature without specifying if it is current/high/average, where/when it was measured, humidity, wind speed or other factors that substantially change how it "feels").
I care a lot more about distance, weight, and volume since conversions and scaling are a pain when using the imperial system (e.g. 1.3 miles in feet, 17 teaspoons in cups/gallons, 1.2 pounds in ounces).
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:48PM (3 children)
Oh, I don't actually care much at all. I just like arguing with people who think theirs is better because of reasons that make no sense whatsoever. That's me, fighting willful stupidity one idiot at a time.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:40PM (2 children)
Metric makes it easier to do the math, and to unambiguously communicate with 95% of humans.
The daily usage is a matter of habit. I seamlessly switch between the two systems to accommodate whomever I'm talking to, but I'll convert to metric if I have to do math, then give them the result in their preferred units.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:48PM (1 child)
Not with temperature it doesn't. The Kelvin scale has a fair claim to that because when they say zero, they mean zero and you don't have to deal with negative values outside theoretical physics. Celsius has no better claim than any other system though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday May 11 2018, @04:12PM
Kelvin is better for really-cold/really-hot science.
Since it uses the same equations and constants, but without carrying the extra 273.15 in every number, Celsius is easier for everyday stuff.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 11 2018, @01:05AM (1 child)
here last year the température got to -32c and +33c (40 with humidex) . -25F and 95F dont look more useful to me .
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 11 2018, @01:22AM
That's because you fail to grasp the significance of 0F being pretty fucking cold and 100F being pretty fucking hot. Yes, we can exist and function beyond them but they are round about where efficiency starts going to shit and significant precautions need to be taken to avoid death.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday May 11 2018, @12:28AM (1 child)
Farenheit:
- zero degrees equates to a pointless arbitrary temperature, originally thought to be 'absolute zero', that has no significance in daily life. Very few people in the world find themselves outside in that temperature, and other figures (e.g. 10F) are only marginally less dangerous
- 100 degrees equates to human body temperature. Useful for knowing if it's dangerously hot outside, but irrelevant to the majority of the world's population, whose climate doesn't reach that temperature
Celcius:
- zero degrees equates to freezing point. Useful for knowing if it's more likely to rain or snow, likelihood of frost etc. Very common environmental experience for much of the world's population
- 100 degrees equates to boiling point. Not particularly useful in day-to-day life, however far less arbitrary than 0F.
Give up on the 'arbitrary measurement' argument for Farenheit TMB. It just makes you look stupid
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 11 2018, @01:30AM
All temperature measurements are arbitrary. Yes, even Kelvin. And no, none are any more or less arbitrary because they are all entirely arbitrary. I think you need to look up the definition of the word.
As for relevance? The human body starts getting into significant risk of death unless noteworthy precautions are taken outside the 0-100F range. That seems quite relevant to humans to me. But then I'm not trying to justify a measurement system just because it's associated with the metric system, even though it shares absolutely none of that system's useful qualities.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by loonycyborg on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:15PM (7 children)
Well boiling point of water is important to me because I'm boiling water for tea every day. So it makes sense to have it as round number 100. It's basically most consistent particular temperature I encounter. Outside weather is a lot more variable.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:20PM (1 child)
Are you at sea level and using pure water though? Or even measuring the temperature of the water? I just turn the stove on and wait for the pot to whistle.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:31PM
Whistling cookery? Ariel is that you? You're a beautiful mermaid/human, why go around acting like a douchey neckbeard?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:22PM (4 children)
This is the dumbest justification ever for Celsius superiority.
Water boils at 100 C! I could never remember any other number!
Does it challenge you to remember your year of birth? No? Then I can assure you you can handle learning a different temp for the boiling point. It's 212 F. There, learn it and never live in ignorance from this point forward. If you still complain that you don't know it, then you are only proving you are of sub-retarded intelligence.
BTW, 100 is an arbitrary number too. You had to memorize that at one point. Fahrenheit is no different.
Celsius as a temperature scale is no better than Fahrenheit. Not one bit better. You ought to be using the Kelvin scale for temperature anyway; that's the SI standard and replacement for the outdated Celsius scale. The Kelvin scale was invented after we learned what temperature really is. Why don't you? Sheer tradition and inertia. Just like everyone else.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:40PM (3 children)
What's amazing to me is all you dipshits with your Murkin Imerialist units can't even promote the one virtue it has!
I guess I'd better tell you what that is. The number 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6. 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. I would not mind if metric were reformulated base 12.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @06:09PM (1 child)
Since you called me an ignorant dipshit, I must point out your ignorance: Americans don't use Imperial units, you retard.
Some Imperial units are equal to American units, and some aren't.
Imperial units are or were used by the UK and its grovelling colonies who didn't gain independence until the 20th century.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @07:13PM
Fine fine, you win on pedantry.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:29PM
I too wish the duodecimal society had succeeded.
I once saw a book of mathematical tables in duodecimal. Yes, base 12 logarithms and sines and cosines and the like calculated to about twelve duodecimal places. Published in the early 1900's, therefore all calculated by hand.
A huge effort.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:47PM (3 children)
There is a certain class of Eurotards that hold the metric system to be the be-all and end-all system for all time because they like how they can move decimal places around. They'll piss on you as an ignorant fool because you cannot quickly tell them how many inches are in a mile while in their heads they can easily convert kilometers into centimeters. They never consider the fact that except for some VERY specific situations, nobody would ever need to know how many inches there are in a mile or centimeters in a kilometer, and in fact, if you are doing something where being off by a centimeter or less over a kilometer matters, you had better be doing your calculations on paper an not in your head anyway.
What the metric snobs fail to realize is that the old Imperial units came about because, as you allude to in other comments, they are based upon actually useful things. The metric system is almost completely useless for relating to real-world scenarios, particularly for volumetric measurements, and especially for area measurements. Metric is very useful for where it has always been useful, as a standard measurement language in the sciences, engineering, and commerce. But for real-life stuff, it is absolutely horrible. Eurotard metric snobs, unless they are scientists, engineers, or involved in international commerce, can only really justify their strong feelings on the topic to their psychological need to feel superior over others.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by lentilla on Thursday May 10 2018, @06:10PM (1 child)
Perhaps. Here you reference distance measurements - notice how the imperial measurements use a variety of units? Metric uses one - the metre. Note also that those variety of units aren't consistent - thus I can't tell you off the top of my head how many inches in a mile, but I certainly can tell you how many centimetres are in a kilometre. Don't be so quick to discount that - even in an everyday context.
Internal consistency is also useful, especially when converting between types of measurement. For instance: a cube with sides 0.1 metres long holds a litre of liquid - we can derive a volumetric measurement from a distance measurement. Now go ahead and tell me what size cube holds a gallon?
I like ordering my beer in pints, but what exactly is a pint? Yet another benefit of metric - a litre of beer is the same no matter which country you are in, and it doesn't matter if the year is 1900 or 2018.
You are conflating precision with magnitude, and both measurement systems are equally likely to suffer those errors.
Indeed - that is quite correct. I'll grant you that Fahrenheit makes good sense for human-related measurements, and a mile is particularly well suited to a "reasonable distance to walk" where the walking part is secondary to the outing's purpose - but these advantages are the imperial system's only saving grace. Don't feel sorry for people in metric countries - they think in metric easily, plus they get very significant benefits (like consistency and conversion) thrown in "for free".
Don't fear metric. With the exception of a few hundred million people, the entire world thinks in metric without a problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 11 2018, @09:28PM
The fact that the metric system uses only one unit for measurement is precisely why it is not terribly useful for real world things. I know you can certainly tell me how many centimeters are in a kilometer, but as it was noted, that is entirely useless except as a not-interesting fact to throw out in a trivia contest. I am quick to discount those kind of conversions because they are artificial in an everyday context.
Your internal consistency argument is artificial as well. I can easily tell you the size of a gallon because a gallon is a very useful measure to distribute liquids such as milk. Can I quickly tell you the exact size if I were to fashion a container in the shape of a cube? No, but that is entirely useless in everyday life. I can very easily get the dimensions to within 10% because the container for a common gallon of milk is about as wide as it is tall. Now if I am constructing something where that dimension matters, I am pulling out a calculator because we have now left the everyday needs into specific needs.
The same with a pint. I am not a regular world traveler, but I have been to a number of countries around the world. The pint is useful because it is a reasonable amount of liquid to quaff, and the difference between a US and Imperial pint is not too terribly bothersome to me because I know when I order a pint that I know I'm getting a certain amount of beer. Besides, if I were to be a very frequent traveler and received roughly the same number of Imperial and US pints, they average out to about a half liter anyway.
I don't feel sorry for people in metric countries, I feel sorry for people who get on their high horses about the innate superiority of the metric system because moving decimal places is largely useless for everyday life. I also note that some places like England, who converted to metric a long time ago, still use miles and miles per hour when driving. You can't blame that on they're still getting used to metric units; they're just using units that are better suited to the what they're applied to. Again, non-metric units are more natural because they describe things that you experience every day, whereas metric completely flips that relationship around. Instead of giving a name for a container that has historically been used to dole out wet or dry goods, you now are forced into redefining the size of your containers so that they can now defined to be some "nice" unit of a metric unit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @06:15PM
The thing is, Americans use metric where it matters.
For science, medicine, electrical devices, international trade, treaties, what have you.
It seems to make some foreigners mad merely to read American units in a story that takes place in America. It must be because they can't instantly grok it so they take it out on the entire nation in the comments. Jesus, if you care, Google will give you the converted answer.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday May 10 2018, @09:29PM (1 child)
Are you implying that liquid water is useless in daily life? Why don't you get back to me on that after spending a week without liquid water, including the liquid water in your body?
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:50PM
No, I'm flat out stating though that very few humans on the planet measure the temperature of any water, much less need to know its boiling or freezing points, on a daily basis. Work on your reading comprehension.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Kilo110 on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:53PM (8 children)
"but I've seen crews of Texans work in 130+ (sealed up office building, no climate control, no fans)"
Assuming your recollection is accurate, what type of work was it? Office work, where one is basically stationary at a desk, is vastly different than a warehouse job where you're hustling and timed down to the second. The heat is much more of a danger in the latter case.
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:59PM (7 children)
Running telephone and network cable in a twelve story unfinished but glassed in office building. Ceiling grid was up but the ceiling tiles and walls weren't. It wasn't remotely the most physically demanding job I've ever done but it was definitely not a desk job.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Gaaark on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:16PM (6 children)
"It's not the heat; it's the humidity!"
Or is that just a Canadian saying??
Heat, i can take. Humidity also? Fuck me...
:)
Even our winters can be humid, making the chill go right down into the bones.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:26PM (5 children)
Oh humidity is relevant as hell. 95F here in TN is a shitload worse to work in than 110F in OK or Fort Worth. Low humidity and high heat just means your sweat actually does its job. As long as you can stay hydrated and keep your electrolytes up you can keep working. Here in TN though? Fuuuuck. Your sweat evaporates so slowly that it's all but useless for cooling purposes.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:06PM (2 children)
Or you know, you could spare us the rhetoric and just refer to the ASHRAE comfort chart -- now available in convenient software format, for one example http://comfort.cbe.berkeley.edu/ [berkeley.edu]
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_comfort [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:50PM (1 child)
What the fuck would anyone in Berkeley know about temperature variation in regards to comfort? They're in air-conditioned classrooms and even if they were outside there wouldn't be the temperature ranges that exist outside California.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:22PM
"the coldest winter I even had was a summer in San Fransisco", said some famous dumbass who clearly didn't travel enough to Minnesota.
(Score: 2) by Spamalope on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:13PM (1 child)
You had me wondering. I'm in Houston where sweat just pools, and was wondering how anyone could take 130F for a work day without medical issues being common. Even in a dry heat that's punishing especially if you're working. I've worked in attics doing electrical repair and in the summer you have to limit your time up there or you're ruined for the day via heat exhaustion. I did see that some folks are a great deal more heat tolerant than others, though often giving up cold tolerance. A friend with Native American blood can be comfortable in 10-15 degrees F warmer temps than me.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:23PM
Oh, you damned well couldn't in Houston. You'd fall over dead in an hour or two tops. Fort Worth is an entirely different matter though and in Amarillo people wouldn't even think twice about it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @12:59PM (12 children)
Ok, so you and some others can deal with extreme conditions. Great.
Does that mean the rest of the world should not reasonably expect improvements?
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @01:06PM (11 children)
The shop is in Texas. Expecting Texans to be able to work in 100 degree temps is not an expectation of the human body that is unrealistic.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @02:30PM (8 children)
Satan just called. He has a management position in Hell he would like you to fill and he thinks you would be ideal.
You weren't kidding about having other jobs lined up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:46PM (5 children)
But when you get to Hell, the job turns out to be coding, that bit about management was a lie.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @03:56PM (4 children)
I think you have a wire or two crossed. A bad surprise would be taking a coding job and getting stuck in management. The other way around is cause for celebration.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by bob_super on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:31PM (3 children)
You have to code in the latest popular javascript-related language and framework, the deadline is six month ago, the interfaces were defined by a newbie, trendy, and enthusiastic marketing moron, the workstation runs WinME, and the guy at the facing open-space desk is a transgender vegan who brings a Pug to work and goes from talking on the phone to singing along with the boys' bands background music.
Fuck, how did I end up mostly describing my job ?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @05:52PM (2 children)
Still better than having to manage an office full of those types mixed in with sane people and having to answer to a pinhead up the ladder about why production has slowed down even though "diversity" has increased when everyone knows "diversity" is the best possible thing to have.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @10:34PM (1 child)
You're both making stupid generalizations.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @11:51PM
The entire conversation is a goof based on an absurd premise. Precision is not warranted.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:49PM (1 child)
Did you miss the part that we're already talking about Texas?
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @04:54PM
You do know that Texans are hands-down the most patriotic people in the nation in regards to their state, yeah? There is nothing a Texan loves more than to tell you how great Texas is. It's damned annoying. Which is part of why it's so much fun watching the boys from Norman stomping the shit out of them in the OU/UT game every year.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by canopic jug on Thursday May 10 2018, @07:32PM (1 child)
The shop is in Texas. Expecting Texans to be able to work in 100 degree temps is not an expectation of the human body that is unrealistic.
It's the lack of seasonal acclimation that makes people such wusses about the weather. When there was no AC, it was easy. As temperatures climbed as summer approached, you just got used to it. The last time I worked in a region with AC, I had the good luck for the AC to destroy itself so badly that it took all summer to repair and to be in a building that not only had windows but some that still opened. Yeah it was hot indoors, but when we went outside in the sun, it was no big deal. That contrasts with other areas where there was AC during working hours which made it impossible to be outside during the hot seasons. For a while, I was doing work outside during very hot weather and that was tolerable because we were outside all the time and used to it. That changed when the work moved indoors and was heavily cooled. Then it was hard to be outside even at night in the heat because of the massive temperature difference. Same for other jobs in other areas.
I've even hiked when it was 105F in the shade, carrying extra gear (more than my share) and extra, extra water (for moochers). It was tiring, but the tiredness hit afterwards. Sure you're covered with salt but just stay hydrated and everything's fine. However, I could not have done it if I had been in air-conditioned facilities prior to that. As spring transitioned to summer, I got used to the heat as normal every year back then. It was then normal to be out in the weather a bit and, when indoors, to let the weather in by opening the windows all year except winter.
I figure that the AC has little to do with comfort and more with builders being able to cut corners by not providing either windows or windows that open, let alone provide a floor plan that allows for cross-breeze. It probably also has something to do with the ability to jack up the overall price of the buildings by throwing in the AC and a markup on top of it. The AC also contributes to noise violations, often exceeding noise limits for adjacent zones.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:48PM
Well, we are talking about city folk here, even if they are Texans, so your argument has some merit. They're city folk who think nothing at all of standing out in the sun in 100F for hours to drink, grill out, drink, eat, and drink with the family or neighbors though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday May 10 2018, @07:28PM
Yeah, but it's a dry heat. Hey, maybe they could sweat some of the weight off [dallasobserver.com] in that environment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:26PM (1 child)
https://usaphcapps.amedd.army.mil/HIOShoppingCart/Uploads/thumbnails/53A.jpg [army.mil]
Even the military says "easy work" you should get a 10 minute break every hour if its over 90 degree temp working conditions.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 10 2018, @08:50PM
Indeed. I'm talking doable here rather than max productivity though because the chick quoted says it is beyond human endurance.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.