A man has shot dead two police officers and a civilian in the eastern Belgian city of Liège.
The gunman took a female cleaner hostage at a school before being killed by police. Two other police officers were also injured.
The man's motive is not yet clear but the incident is being treated as terrorism.
Police sources quoted in local media said the man was heard shouting "Allahu Akbar" ("God is greatest" in Arabic).
Belgian broadcaster RTBF said the gunman was let out from prison on temporary release on Monday where he had been serving time on drug offenses. It said that he may have been radicalised while in jail.
The shooting unfolded late morning on Tuesday near a cafe in the city centre.
Update: 16:56 UTC
More recent reporting states:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/29/europe/liege-shooting-intl/index.html
The incident occurred at around 10:30 a.m. when an assailant stabbed two policewomen from behind, before stealing their service weapons and using them on the officers, Liege Prosecutor Philippe Dulieu said at a news conference on Tuesday.
After killing the two officers, the attacker continued walking through the street and opened fire on a parked vehicle, fatally wounding the driver inside, Dulieu added.
The gunman also killed a 22-year-old male car passenger on the Boulevard d'Avory, before taking a female cleaner hostage at a nearby high school.
She was released when police shot dead the attacker, who has been named by local media as Belgian national Benjamin Herman.
See also, thanks to C0lo:
Related Stories
A man has shot dead two police officers and a civilian in the eastern Belgian city of Liège.
The gunman took a female cleaner hostage at a school before being killed by police. Two other police officers were also injured.
The man's motive is not yet clear but the incident is being treated as terrorism.
Police sources quoted in local media said the man was heard shouting "Allahu Akbar" ("God is greatest" in Arabic).
Belgian broadcaster RTBF said the gunman was let out from prison on temporary release on Monday where he had been serving time on drug offenses. It said that he may have been radicalised while in jail.
The shooting unfolded late morning on Tuesday near a cafe in the city centre.
Update: 16:56 UTC
More recent reporting states:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/29/europe/liege-shooting-intl/index.html
The incident occurred at around 10:30 a.m. when an assailant stabbed two policewomen from behind, before stealing their service weapons and using them on the officers, Liege Prosecutor Philippe Dulieu said at a news conference on Tuesday.
After killing the two officers, the attacker continued walking through the street and opened fire on a parked vehicle, fatally wounding the driver inside, Dulieu added.
The gunman also killed a 22-year-old male car passenger on the Boulevard d'Avory, before taking a female cleaner hostage at a nearby high school.
She was released when police shot dead the attacker, who has been named by local media as Belgian national Benjamin Herman.
See also, thanks to C0lo:
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by VLM on Tuesday May 29 2018, @12:57PM (20 children)
How would we ever survive without diversity?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:12PM (2 children)
A guy called Benjamin Herman, a convert believed to have started on the path of cultural enrichment while in prison.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:06PM
Who did the converting?
It seems we've introduced a mind virus with unusually awful outcomes.
Quarantine them all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:20PM
Criminals in prison should be denied:
1. contact with criminals other than self
2. books that advocate violence
3. time in the presence of a lone prison worker (who might be corrupt)
Somebody fucked up. There should be no exceptions to the above.
At least the first two were violated.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:44PM (16 children)
So, uhhhhhh - dude walks up to TWO cops, STABS THEM BOTH, then takes their guns from them, and finally shoots them both.
I'm thinking something like Darwin Awards here . . . WTF didn't either one of them shoot this shitbag before he got within range to cut them? The sumbitch screaming "Allahu Akbar" should have tipped them off, after all, even without the knife in hand.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:08PM (7 children)
You describe a stupid scenario and then your first question is "Were they stupid"?
Didn't it cross your mind that a more rational explanation is likely [sky.com]?
Warning - Linked to Belgian language content [lalibre.be] - an video clip confirms the killer cried "Allahu Abkar" - not clear if before killing the two policewomen or after, the video does not show the two police officers killed (of I'm not mistaken, the clip contains the noise of small gun shots - if true, this would mean it happened after).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:17PM (6 children)
You've heard the term, "situational awareness"? That term is what keeps a motorcyclist alive, when all the 4-wheelers on the road seem intent on murdering him. These cops? They allowed a nut case to sneak up on them? I still ask, WTF?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:04PM (1 child)
Yeah, right, I get it. You a living in a perpetual state of war.
Or on a motorcycle at full speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:18PM
Nonono, padded walls. Why he gets internet privileges is beyond me.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:39PM
How is that working out for you in the US, asshole? 1500+/yr police deadly shootings?
60 years old and still a fucking idiot..
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:52PM
Everyone gets lulled into complacency by the general state of peace and the everyday. People form habits and patterns based on those realities, and attackers recognize that and exploit it.
Even when individuals have been specifically trained to react as you describe, and they find themselves in a situation where those skills are called upon 24/7 they can still fail to act appropriately. They fail at surprisingly high rates. What was the statistic from WWII, only 15-20% of the soldiers aimed to kill?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by tftp on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:37PM (1 child)
In a dense city a killer can approach nearly anyone. Perhaps the officers should not be close to others... unless they were ordered to patrol there. Also consider this:
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @07:59AM
When coming from behind, it's probably easier to walk casually than running.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:15PM (5 children)
Perhaps he didn't call out until he had stabbed both of the policewomen from behind, at which time they were possibly unable to prevent him taking the weapons. After all, if you are lying on the ground dying then holding on to your weapon might not be your top priority.
Watch many films, do you? Of course, we all know that in the movies the heroine would have fought back valiantly and despite being fatally wounded, she would have subdued and arrested the assailant.
Unfortunately real life isn't always like that.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:25PM
We have the most relevant facts already. Nut case approached two cops, and took them out. This resembles a classic Native American ambush. A dozen soldiers, gazing into their campfire, while the Indians sneak into position. If/when the soldiers finally sense something out of place, they are blinded by the campfire, and can't see into the darkness.
You wait for more facts. There is a reason why cops often work in pairs - they're supposed to watch each other's backs.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:40PM (3 children)
The gun could be used to finish you off. Alternately, you could use it to stop the attack.
I think much of the problem is "policewomen". Why did we decide that this is sane? There should be physical standards unlikely to be passed by women and by anybody over the age of 40.
As a starting point: the physical requirements that the US Marine Corps sets for males under the age of 30.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday May 30 2018, @12:13AM (1 child)
Why would you want to treat your police like an occupying army?
I live in a country where the police do not even routinely carry guns, and as a result the general public trust them.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 30 2018, @06:13PM
... the demographics are different, and demographics are destiny, so ...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @12:35AM
Why should we value high physical standards over competence and integrity? As PartTimeZombie noted, sure, you need some sort of physical standard, but you don't need one so onerous that only the young and stupid can pass it. That defeats the purpose of having a police department.
There's plenty wrong with police around the world, but one of them is not being so fit that one can drop them in the middle of a combat zone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:24PM
don't be a douche. they were probably walking the beat in the ice cream district or some shit. they didn't know a wanna-be goat fucker would sneak up and stab them.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday May 30 2018, @05:04PM
once upon a time, a cop searching my vehicle for drugs (just crossed the border from holland to germany, going a happy 100mph on a black audi a3 might have helped being noticed) was half a meter from me, giving me his back, the holstered gun clearly in sight. I was like WTF how are you even alive, until I reasoned it could be an empty gun, that would quickly sort out the criminal from the ordinary citizen. It was after 2001 IIRC but before the kebab invasion.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Entropy on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:17PM (24 children)
Yeah, we need more peace. We should import some of those peace people.
(Score: 0, Troll) by bradley13 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:30PM (20 children)
Yep, they are so grateful for being allowed into Europe.
Seriously, invite thousands of barbarians, from barbaric cultures, into their country. WTF do people expect? Actually civilizing people takes generations. This is "magic dirt" theory at its best.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:37PM
Especially those arriving in Europe carried by storks about 36 years ago, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:50PM (15 children)
Are they barbarians because of the race, religion or nationality? There are millions of humans, Muslims and Asians who are just like you and I.
No matter, because your prejudice is irrelevant: he was a Belgian who was born there. I suppose you ought now to add 'Belgians' to your list of undesirable people.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:55PM (7 children)
Your fault, J.
This information needed to be in TFS, not in the comments!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:11PM (5 children)
It wasn't known when the story was released - it has only become public since.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:51PM (4 children)
But you know it now, aren't you?
Would you mind to amend TFS with the new knowledge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday May 29 2018, @04:57PM (3 children)
Let the idiotic bigots who jump to conclusions without facts *out themselves*, and then look stupid in the harsh light of day.
Those who stand up and say "OK, you got me, I'm racist" at least will have the smallest iota of my respect for their honesty.
Radicalisation in prisons works on those with the weakest minds (but not particularly at the hands of those with the weakest minds, the concept of officers and grunts is just as valid in non-conventional warfare as it is in the more gentlemanly mass murder that we partake in), and there's little evidence that those of a western european strain have managed to evolve free of that trait. (Where 'little' means 'no'.)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:30PM (2 children)
It doesn't matter. The native losers are being used by the Islamists who shouldn't even be in country. White people have a right to exist without being murdered or bred out of existence by other races. It's fat, brain washed sacks of shit like you that let it happen.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:42PM
Fuck you and your kind. Fucking waste of skin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @12:24AM
This is incorrect. There is no such right. And there is no such race. White people do not exist! Any more than Belgium [zapatopi.net]. Goddamn kin-murdering Frisians! Beowulf would kick your ass.
(Score: 3, Touché) by pe1rxq on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:35PM
Do you really want all the false assumptions bigots may make on the frontpage?
That will be one huge summary....
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:14PM
Well, nobody was going to say, but... /me ducks
(Score: 3, Insightful) by requerdanos on Tuesday May 29 2018, @04:31PM
If you are looking for physical appearance, belief in the divine of one flavor or another, or nation of birth to detect whether someone is a barbarian, you will, of course, get mostly noise, and very little signal. That would be prejudice, judging before evidence is known with which to do so.
If you, on the other hand, look to those who commit multiple murder, observe, nod, and record the fact that they are barbarians, you are simply observing reality.
Interestingly, there is a middle ground. Areas that are rife with violent crime do in fact tend to export people who are more barbarian and less civilized, whether it's Muslim villages who burn their Christians and infidels alive, or gang-riddled U.S. inner cities, or tribes of cannibals.
If--I say if, this barbarian didn't--someone should come from such an area, a wait-and-see attitude is probably healthier than just assuming they are a nice, good person who left the craziness, instead of part of the craziness looking to expand in other areas.
Thus, a prejudiced bigot would likely be right much of the time for the wrong reason, and your enlightened tolerance would likewise be wrong much of the time because it's often simply favorable prejudice, which has its own dangers.
This isn't a criticism of you--a caution, perhaps. It's okay to point out that being a prejudiced bigot is wrong while still recognizing the evidence-based case that like frequently breeds like.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:09PM
If this deadly mind-virus has infected Belgians, then they are as undesirable as people with ebola.
It's nothing personal. You're just too damn hazardous for civilization.
(Score: 3, Informative) by JustNiz on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:25PM
Hint: Islam isn't a race or a nationality.
Until every person on the planet has enough basic common sense/education to not believe in man-made imaginary sky fairies that command their followers to kill others, this will always be a thing.
I'm not holding my breath.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:54PM
Add? Belgians have always been on my list of undesirable people.
Frickin' Belgians.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:20PM
Fricking Belgians!
Signed: Dr. Evil
[True fact: Belgians sell little chocolate arms cut off of Congolese, in celebration of their colonial greatness. That and Goldmember.]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @08:11AM
I thought they have been on the list since the beginning of time.
Why else did we name them after the worst insult ever?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:03PM (2 children)
Barbarians from barbaric cultures?
Actually, those people invented civilization. They were civilized when Europeans were scratching their fleas amid filth. Before even Rome ever had its roads the Persian Empire already had highways.
Now, do Europeans want to invite an Islamic population into their midst, among whom are many who are apt to commit acts of religious-inspired terrorism or will generally subvert hard-won liberties for women and other demographics who have long gotten the short end of the stick? That's a different question.
Calling them uncivilized barbarians is unjust, though, and gets it almost entirely backward, historically speaking.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by tftp on Tuesday May 29 2018, @10:51PM (1 child)
Rome fell in 395 AD, well before Islam was created in 7th century. Persians that you mention were likely Zoroastrians. The science of the Middle East continued several centuries after the area became Muslim and died out afterwards [theguardian.com].
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 30 2018, @10:52AM
You do know people inhabited the Middle East long before Islam, right? They were building cities like Sumer and Babylon, and thus, literally becoming civilized, long, long before Europeans had notions of anything of the sort. The Achaemenid Persians built highways long before the Romans. The pontoon bridge Julius Caesar built to cross the Rhine, so celebrated by Western historians, was actually preceded long before that by the pontoon bridge Xerxes built to cross the Hellespont during his invasion of Greece. Not too shabby for a bunch of barbarians, right?
So the religion they espoused is not really a factor. They were civilized by all the measures by which we judge such things--art, architecture, organization, science, agriculture.
Even if your premise is that Islam renders people uncivilized, that too does not stand up to even passing scrutiny. After Rome fell and Europe descended into the Dark Ages, it was Islam that preserved and expanded upon the knowledge of the ancient world. "Algebra" was an Islamic invention, and would count as a significant contribution to civilization in anyone's book. In fact, up until WWI an Islamic Empire, the Ottomans, were still reckoned as one of the world powers and as modern and civilized as anyone else.
Again, do Christians want an influx of a bunch of Muslims who might erode their cultural traditions and secular freedoms is a different question, but it cannot be in any way claimed or said that people from the Middle East are uncivilized barbarians.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:34PM (1 child)
You already have them, showing promises at even younger ages [cnn.com]
This one [telegraph.co.uk] was older
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:25PM
Hmmm, seems like the perfect candidate for a false flag op. Gotta keep those people scared of the brown people!
That is slightly sarcastic, but it really does seem like there is a desire for war. You can see it here with the fuckheads trolling for genocide already. Look at that evil over there! Don't mind the evil in your backyard!
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday May 29 2018, @04:55PM
He was domestically grown. If you want more, just keep putting people in jail.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by SomeGuy on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:26PM (9 children)
How do you say "There is no such thing as God, you fucking numnut retard" in Arabic?
Wow, a shooting all the way in Belgium. And this is news because why? There are shootings in the US every day. Is it because they said "Allahu Akbar" instead of "Giiive me your iPhoooone!"? Or do you just like saying "Belgium"?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:34PM (2 children)
Because it's unusual.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:08PM (1 child)
Belgium only makes up ~2% of the EU's population, making it unusual for it to turn up in news of any sort.
Attacks since 2010, as listed by wikiepdia:
Germany, 16[1]
France, 32[3]
Belgium, 6[4]
France or Germany being attacked just isn't newsworthy anymore, Belgium still is. Most importantly though is that I felt surprised, and at the end of the day the news sells not based on how unusual it is but how unusual it is perceived to be.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany#Terrorism_in_(or_involving)_West_Germany_and_reunified_Germany
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France#21st_century [wikipedia.org]
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_activity_in_Belgium [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:46PM
Somebody getting shot while dressed up as Ronald McDonald, passing out printed pictures of the Goatse guy, while the wind is blowing from the south, without having cell phone - now THAT is unusual, but also not newsworthy for Soylentnews. There is no clickbait advertising quota that needs to be filled.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:38PM
Fuck the other people, I got mine!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:18PM (1 child)
And you think that the rest of the world should just ignore shootings simply because the US has a problem with gun control? Nah, not going to happen. Or perhaps you are of the view that, unless it happens in the US, it is irrelevant?
Outside of the USA this is news. Terrorism is still news even when Americans are not involved. I'll accept that it isn't a major attack but it is still significant.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:24PM
Compared to the rest of the world, the USA doesn't have a problem with gun control. There is a bit in states like California, Maryland, Hawaii, and Massachusetts. The rest of us have freedom, more or less.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:25PM (1 child)
Because we're in the middle of Ramadanadingdong, [thereligionofpeace.com] exhibition season for the religion of peace?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:05PM
As a recent convert maybe he wasn't prepared for how hangry he got during the fast.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Informative) by requerdanos on Tuesday May 29 2018, @04:36PM
Let's break this down.
Without names = "Unidentified officials"
Passive voice, no subject = "unidentified random idiots"
Thus:
"Unidentified officials said that unidentified random idiots said that the killer totally shouted 'Allahu Akbar!' just like they do on TV. In Arabic this translates to something violently ironic."
I'm not saying that it didn't happen; I am just saying I am underwhelmed by the presented evidence that it did.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @01:43PM (16 children)
Do your duty and post other link and more info - I grew tired of offtopic anti-muslim emigration rants:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/29/gunman-kills-two-police-officers-belgium-taking-woman-hostage/ [telegraph.co.uk]
https://news.sky.com/story/belgian-police-launch-terror-probe-after-shooting-of-police-and-bystander-11388883 [sky.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:20PM (10 children)
Come join the editorial team and maybe help fill the gaps when we can have an editor just sitting here waiting to spoon feed those who cannot use Google.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:40PM (7 children)
Even now it's not too late - instead of replying to me, you could use the material I provided and adjust TFS.
Your bit + my occasional bit and it may result in a decent FS without me taking a commitment I know I cannot keep!
Tut-tut, Jan, nobody pushed you to volunteer for an ed. If you've done it, do your job well, though.
If you can't take it any more, just notify TMB, he'll do his best to answer the challenge.
Mistake will happen and I (or others) will start shouting; it doesn't mean though I don't appreciate what a thankless job being an editor is and neither that I make any value judgement about you beyond the point of the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:37AM (6 children)
But do you? There's an awful lot of whinging going on there for someone appreciating the thankless job.
It's not too late, c0lo!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:54AM (5 children)
Are you that alone and bored you have nothing better to do than to open processes of intention for things long resolved?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @04:36AM (4 children)
On my page, the post I replied happened three minutes later. Not "long resolved" in any sense of the word.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @05:00AM (3 children)
See the update in TFS?
Problem of missing info solved @16:56 UTC, your post coming @02:37AM next day. This is "long resolved" in my books.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @08:54AM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @09:40AM (1 child)
Process of intent, punto e basta.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @10:07AM
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday May 29 2018, @04:57PM (1 child)
It's not "cannot," it's WILL NOT. Don't you get it? VLM, Entropy, and others of their ilk have already made up their minds (and I use the term loosely...) about "those people." They are not interested in reality. They have an axe to grind and by Cthulhu they *will* grind it. Best thing to do is make it obvious in the summary that the kind of shit idiots like them will inevitably post without knowing all the facts is wrong.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:11PM
We are all "those people." Shockingly few of us are truly interested in reality. Most of us swim along hoping others accept the gloss we put on the world.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:53PM (1 child)
E's a fokkin Muzzi, mate?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:55PM
Have you noticed that Muzzi and Nazi sound alike?
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:32PM
Anti-muslim emigration rants are still 100% appropriate.
It isn't the fact that many of them come from foreign lands that matters. It's the fact that they are here. We don't want the ones we have. (they need to go) Adding more makes the infestation worse.
You want peace? It won't happen as long as we share the land. We will not share the land forever. One side or the other, probably them, will ultimately exterminate the other.
Within this century, a genocide is all but certain. Only a few things are seriously in question: the initiator, the exact date, the method, and the winner.
I'm betting on Islam. They have a well-practiced expansion plan that has been taking advantage of liberal attitudes for centuries.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @10:13PM (1 child)
If you reject your own country/culture in favor of some Islamic Caliphate thing, then you are a hostile opposing force. You are undeserving of citizenship.
At a bare minimum, you should be made stateless and then dropped off at a refugee camp that is really far away. For them, southeast Asia and southern Africa are likely choices. Bangladesh looks particularly promising.
This is of course being far kinder and gentler than they would be to anybody civilized. They'd kill us without hesitation. Logically, we ought to return the favor.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @01:57AM
The culture is democracy. Rejecting it without losing citizenship is thus, the prerogative of any citizen of the country.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:17PM (20 children)
When are we going to smarten up and treat religion like a mental illness?
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:23PM (7 children)
What is mental illness here?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:47PM
Smartening up?
/ducks
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @02:48PM (5 children)
Sociopathy [wordpress.com] What personality traits would attract a Western born convict to convert to Islam? Where else do we see anti-social behaviours? [thehill.com]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:14PM (4 children)
Doesn't sound like you're the same AC. But I wasn't speaking of a single person, but questioning what was the point of the label of "mental illness". Are we supposed to be treating several billion people for the mental illness of being religious?
Second, sociopathy? Big whoop. That word is so devalued it's lost its meaning.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:44PM (3 children)
Let's just start with acknowledging, which will help.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @01:49AM (2 children)
Let's look at the assertion again.
It's not just some name-calling, but a call to action. We need to do something about religion, and that something is to "treat" it like a mental illness. There's a huge range of treatment options from self-help books to forced hospitalization (possibly with exotic treatments like electroshock therapy or medication), some which are economically impossible at present with billions of people affected - one would need serious AI to psychoanalyze a few billion people at once.
But there is this bit of nuance before one gets to treatment options. Namely, what is mental illness in the first place. We've gotten away from speaking of mental illness as merely being abnormal (which would be utter fail in the case of religion since that tends to be normal behavior!). So we're left with the idea that mental illness is any mental behavior that causes harm to the beholder or company and doesn't go away quickly on its own. If you get dumped and mope and act up over the weekend, you're not mentally ill. If you're still behaving this way, five years later with numerous bits of evidence that it's causing you and anyone around you harm, you are mentally ill.
Ok, so that's what my idea of mentally ill is. So a bunch of people with closed minds sure looks like mental illness. They're causing harm to themselves and others, check, with those attitudes. Then we move on to treatment. The point of treatment is to make things better not worse. For example, it's not a success, if your treatment turns a normal religious person into an ax murderer for J. R. "Bob" Dobbs. Sorry, Slacktarians, it just isn't.
So the treatment has to improve things. And that's where we get to the chief problem. The primary purpose of religion is to cope with death and a universe with infinite capacity for unfairness. Remove religion, and they'll still need to cope. You need to replace the old crutch with a better one in order for treatment to work. Good luck on that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ChrisMaple on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:37AM (1 child)
The purpose of religion is for people who know better to gain power over the credulous. All religious leaders are evil, and all believers are victims.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:49AM
And I explained what was in it for the credulous. You can't understand religion, if you don't understand why it works.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:40PM (3 children)
I've read a lot of anthropological and history books and papers (by non-religious people) that say that religion may be necessary for civilization. Also note a lot of of the modern anti-religion movement, starting in the 1600's, is anti-current dominant religions. Note how much new belief systems are beginning to enter into popular culture like ufo-ism, flat earth, hollow earth, lizardoids from planet whatever. Even science is turning into a religion for some with leaders, priests, meetings, dogma, rituals, followings.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Tuesday May 29 2018, @05:47PM (2 children)
Yeah, but you can actually explain to the "science followers" that they're wrong about something. All you need to do is use facts and logic. Calling it a "religion" just because people are beginning to understand why it's so important is disingenuous.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:28PM
Oh my goodness would historians of science beg to differ with you on that! Do a little reading on the theory of ether, then come back and tell us again how willing scientists are to accept ideas that are contrary to their beliefs.
It's OK that you come back chastened. Many have a notion of science such as you have expressed, but these are human beings we're talking about, not Vulcans.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:32AM
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 29 2018, @06:03PM (4 children)
When are we going to smarten up and treat religion like a mental illness?
Many of us would be fine if that applied to all religions.
Unfortunately, in the real world, religion only seems to come up when the shooter is brown. That white supremacist, who is more likely to kill you in a terrorist attack if you live in the US, never gets his religion questioned.
(Score: 1) by JustNiz on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:34PM (1 child)
Hey don't speak for me. I think ALL religious people should be considered as both dangerous and at least mentally deficient if not outright mentally ill, and treated as such. Definately including Christians.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:23PM
Then I am dangerous and mentally deficient and mentally ill. Just like Mets fans.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:21PM
Not so. Christians and Christianity in America are criticized on a daily basis. Only, it's been sublimated as dog whistles and cloaked as political speech. If you don't hear it, it's because you're not the target.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 30 2018, @02:47AM
What religion is white supremacy? In the US, they tend to be Christian through to atheist. Sometimes religion is important, but it's usually not a big part of their ideology.
But "when the shooter is brown", meaning an adherent to radical Islam, the religion is a key part of their identity and rationalization for their attacks. Come to think of it, their religion doesn't get questioned then either.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by FatPhil on Tuesday May 29 2018, @07:51PM
As not all mental illness is harmful to others, sometimes quite the opposite - some of the most respected creative literary, artistic, and musical talents have had mental illnesses - some, many, severe enough to lead to their own suicide.
And similarly, not all religions are harmful to others, and for similar reasons. One of the most delightful friends I have is a pagan, and he knows I think it's woo-woo, but we are genuinely the best of friends - nothing he does to satisfy that choice impinges on me, and nothing I do to satisfy my choice to reject impinges on him, and that's how it should be. Not *all* religions. There are exceptions. I have received an unambiguous face-to-face death threat from a work colleague who was a squash player when I told him that I was brought up in a tennis-playing family, but stopped playing because I decided that I didn't like any racket sports. (Yes, I have substituted alternative words in that sentence in order to not invite any more death threats, but I'm happy the analogy is clear, and that you can work out what the sports represent.)
Also, to judge a group for the actions of that group is to judge all individual members of that group for the actions of the whole group, and therefore any actions of any members of that group, which is absurd.
However, and this is a big however, any adherent to a group which names itself something that effectively says "what my group says goes, fuck anything else in the world, local laws included" (which I justify in the case of squash players using the principle that the exception proves the rule), could perhaps take a look at that slogan, and perhaps realise that anyone who judges them as being undesireable merely because of the meaning packed into that slogan might have a point. I don't like your sport because the rules of it tell you to smack balls into a wall, I think that's a perfectly rational stance (and also one that modern tennis doesn't have, even if in Tudor times there were versions of tennis that did have that in the rules).
Holy moley, I'm surprised how much mileage I got from that analogy!
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 29 2018, @08:15PM
Shared narratives that frame events and facts in a matrix of meaning are universal to mankind and rather hard-wired into the human brain. So good luck with that.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 30 2018, @12:23AM
It's slowly going away as science gets better. Those out-of-body experiences people experience which make them 100% believe the soul is real and that there are higher planes of existence is just you shutting off the part of your brain which is responsible for determining where your body parts are in relation to all the others. The more than can be explained through science the less needs to be explained through gods.
Also look at patterns. Countries with single rulers tend to have religions with many gods and those with many rulers tend to have religions with a single god. People want balance in their lives.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 29 2018, @03:49PM
Has been a pretty quiet ramadan-bombathon this year. Looks like Trump is achieving that campaign promise of ending terror.