Trump orders creation of space-focused U.S. military branch
U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday said he was ordering the creation of a sixth branch of the military to focus on space, a move critics said could harm the Air Force.
"It is not enough to merely have an American presence in space. We must have American dominance in space," Trump said before a meeting of his National Space Council. "We are going to have the Air Force and we're going to have the 'Space Force.' Separate but equal. It is going to be something," he said later.
The United States is a member of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, which bars the stationing of weapons of mass destruction in space and only allows for the use of the moon and other celestial bodies for peaceful purposes.
The idea of a Space Force has been raised before, by Trump and previous administrations, with proponents saying it would make the Pentagon more efficient. It has also faced criticism from senior military officials. Air Force Chief of Staff General David Goldfein told a 2017 congressional hearing that creating a new space branch would "move us in the wrong direction." The Air Force oversees most of the nation's space-related military activity.
The move would require the budgetary approval of the U.S. Congress, which has been divided on the idea.
President Trump orders the creation of new Starship Troopers/Space Marines memes.
We should have a separate "Space" topic on SoylentNews at this point. We are all going to be drafted to fight aliens eventually.
Also at BBC (#winning image).
Previously: The United States Space Corps Wants You...
Congressional Panel Puts Plans for a US Space Corps in 2018 Defense Budget
The Case for a U.S. Space Force
Related Stories
US lawmakers have drafted legislation proposing the formation of a new branch of the military called the Space Corps. This new space-orientated military service would join the five other branches of the United States Armed Forces and is intended to manage national security in space.
Last week, the House Armed Service Committee, led by Republican Chairman Mike Rogers and Ranking Member Democrat Jim Cooper, introduced the new legislation claiming that the current national security space systems in the United States are not capable of protecting the country's space assets.
"Not only are there developments by adversaries," says Mr Rogers and Mr Cooper in the committee release, "but we are imposing upon the national security space enterprise a crippling organizational and management structure and an acquisition system that has led to delays and cost-overruns."
Although the proposal establishes the US Space Corps as its own separate military service, it would still be operated from within the Department of the Air Force, in much the same way the US Marine Corps operates from within the Department of the Navy.
Will the space lasers make a 'pew, pew!' sound?
Don't get your hopes up too high about becoming a space marine quite yet. But if the House of Representatives' version of the 2018 defense budget goes through, you may soon be able to enlist in the US Space Corps.
Back in January of 2001, days before the inauguration of President George W. Bush, a commission headed by future Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned of a "space Pearl Harbor" and urged a reorganization of the military to put a greater emphasis on warfare in the space domain—defending US communications and intelligence satellites, and if necessary taking out the satellites of adversaries. In their report, the Commission to Assess United States National Security Space Management and Organizations told Congress, "The US is more dependent on space than any other nation... Yet the threat to the US and its allies in and from space does not command the attention it merits."
A few things happened that derailed efforts to change that perceived neglect. But now the House Armed Services Committee (HASC) has breathed new life into those old plans by including a provision in the House version of the 2018 US defense budget that would create a separate military service dedicated to the cause of space as a warfare domain: the US Space Corps. It would also create a separate joint command, the US Space Command, breaking the role out of the US Strategic Command much in the way that was done with the US Cyber Command.
Source: Ars Technica
Previously: The United States Space Corps Wants You...
Former NASA astronaut, test pilot, and retired USAF Colonel Terry Virts is itching for a U.S. Space Force:
During my 30 plus years in the Air Force I had the privilege of serving as a pilot for my entire active duty career, with 16 of those years in Air Force Space Command as an astronaut. And I can say unequivocally that the air and space domains are completely different and independent of each other.
[...] If space is a separate domain, worthy of its own uniformed service, what exactly should it comprise, and what would it look like? Today, not only does the Air Force have its own space component, but so does the Army and Navy as well as other government agencies. I propose combining all "title 10" (i.e. combat related forces, as opposed to "title 50" intelligence gathering forces) assets that leave the atmosphere, or return from space, in a newly formed "Space Force," reporting directly to the secretary of Defense.
[...] I believe making this change will actually save money, as duplication is eliminated. It will also improve the quality of support that the joint force commander has at his disposal, as the joint-force space component commander will be entirely focused on providing space domain support to the joint fight, and not on pleasing an Air Force (or Navy or Army) chain of command that may have conflicting priorities.
[...] The time for a new uniformed service, the Space Force, is now. America deserves the most modern, efficient, and innovative military possible, and this will be a critical element in keeping us many steps ahead of our enemies.
Previously: The United States Space Corps Wants You...
Congressional Panel Puts Plans for a US Space Corps in 2018 Defense Budget
Pence unveils plan to create Space Force by 2020
Vice President Mike Pence announced the Pentagon's detailed plan for President Donald Trump's vision of a Space Force on Thursday, which would establish the first military branch in over 70 years.
[...] Pence on Thursday stressed that the new branch would be built, in part, from pre-existing elements. "The Space Force will not be built from scratch," Pence said during a speech before members of the Pentagon. "This is a critical step toward's establishing the Space Force as the sixth branch of our armed forces."
Here are the four components to the Department of Defense establishing a Space Force:
First, DoD will establish a Space Development Agency to develop and field space capabilities at speed and scale. The Air Force has already begun to transform its Space and Missile Center (SMC). The Department will accelerate and extend this transformation to all services by creating a joint Space Development Agency.
Second, the Department will develop the Space Operations Force to support the Combatant Commands. These joint space warfighters will provide space expertise to combatant commanders and the Space Development Agency, and surge expertise in time of crisis to ensure that space capabilities are leveraged effectively in conflict.
Third, the Department will create the governance, services, and support functions of the Space Force. Many of these will require changes to U.S. law. The Department will build a legislative proposal for Congressional consideration as a part of the Fiscal Year 2020 budget cycle.
Fourth, the Department will create a U.S. Space Command, led by a four star general or flag officer, to lead the use of space assets in warfighting and accelerate integration of space capabilities into other warfighting forces. U.S. Space Command will be responsible for directing the employment of the Space Force.
Will Space Development Agency research trickle down to NASA?
Previously: The United States Space Corps Wants You...
Congressional Panel Puts Plans for a US Space Corps in 2018 Defense Budget
The Case for a U.S. Space Force
President Trump Orders the Creation of a United States Space Force
(Score: 2) by Kilo110 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @01:38AM (8 children)
I’ve always wanted to be a space marine. Where do I sign up?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:34AM (4 children)
At the bottom, of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:17AM (3 children)
You know what they say about Marines? Double for Spaced Marines! Trump is only a Space Cadet, apropos his "military" experience.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:53AM (2 children)
No, I don't know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @08:39AM (1 child)
Well, if you push their belly button, they are bottoms. How could you not know this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gannon [wikipedia.org] Or maybe, as always, too much information.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday June 19 2018, @08:45AM
This world is so much larger than US and it has so many cultures (in which jokes from one mean nothing for the others).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by bussdriver on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:51AM (2 children)
The Marines are not in the Air Force either.
Next this idiot will order something blown up in space and you can forget about us ever getting anything back into space again for a century. Nobody can command a battlefield which anybody can render useless so easily.
This is all about corrupt spending sprees and maybe getting some new kinds of WMD you can actually use.... Literally dropping large rocks on people... and perhaps they get x-ray laser guns working (normal lasers would just be too stupid; but I wouldn't be surprised if we blow a billion on Space Lasers for the Space Force.)
Most STUPID sounding name I've ever heard! Sci-fi is loaded with plenty of good names; did anybody ever use that stupid name?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:49AM
I understand nothing more a couple of tons of pea-gravel launched into an elliptical polar orbit will render space damn near completely useless for further exploration by anybody.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:00PM
You say "this idiot", but my first reaction was "Now how does this hurt the US military?". It's not a reasoned reaction, and I sure wouldn't try to justify all of Trumps actions as attempts to sabotage the country, but I'm not sure that "idiot" is the reason either. (I think he's "owned".)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @01:38AM (64 children)
This guy knows less about science and space than a jar of Tang.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by idiot_king on Tuesday June 19 2018, @01:48AM (6 children)
It's just platitudes. "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE CHILDREN IN THE CAGES! WE'RE GOIN TO SPACE, BABY! YEEEEEHAWWWWWW"
Also, bonus points to the Orange Idiot for the "Separate but equal" reference. Gunna be a real big win with people who look like me. /s
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:40AM (1 child)
If you didn't pick your nose in public, people wouldn't care so much what you look like.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:43PM
Interesting, but that's not a lifestyle change I'm ready to make.
(Score: 0, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:03AM (1 child)
As my Space Force goes up to the moon, to Mars, to many places, they'll be bringing American Greatness. And separate but equal is a big part of what made our Country great. Big part of our history & our heritage. Plessy v. Ferguson, when we lost that one it was devastating to our Country. Like you wouldn't believe. And possibly in space we'll be able to bring that one back, maybe we'll have it out there before it comes back here. Back to our own planet. And I'm getting tremendous support. From the blacks, from many beautiful people. Good looking people. I have a great relationship with the blacks.
And the alien babies, I haven't forgotten the alien babies. And I talked about them when I said, we're doing the Space Force. I've moved very strongly on the aliens. I have to, it's the law -- a law the Dems gave us. And the law says, lock up the "parents" -- so many times, they're not the real parents. But send the babies back. We don't lock up the babies. The alien parents or fake parents we lock up. Babies go free. So you need to get that one right!!!
(Score: 2, Funny) by Sulla on Wednesday June 20 2018, @12:17AM
I love how TRDT posts piss off the leftists enough to waste their moderation points on it but fail to see that TRDT's posts are better satire against Trump than anything the leftists could ever articulate.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:42AM (1 child)
Look at how people feel about him:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/18/satisfaction-country-higher-any-point-during-obama/ [washingtontimes.com]
OK, maybe not you personally... we'll work on that.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:35PM
1. Looking at the overall trend of that poll [gallup.com], I'll just say I'm among the solid majority that have never once expressed support for the direction the country is going. And 38% support with the direction of the country is nothing to brag about.
2. You're confusing satisfaction with the direction the country is going with approval for President Trump. His approval ratings [fivethirtyeight.com] are worse than any other president at this point in his presidency since the invention of the opinion poll. And his disapproval ratings are also telling: A majority of Americans hate him. That's been true throughout his presidency.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday June 19 2018, @01:50AM (56 children)
As the article states, the idea predates the Trump Presidency. Check out the Case for a U.S. Space Force [soylentnews.org]. But will forming a new branch of the military save money compared to having the Air Force keep the role of launching/operating satellites, the X-37B, etc.? I think we know the answer.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:06AM (13 children)
Creating a new bureaucracy to specifically administer space weapons will create chaos (read: opportunity to slide money into new pockets.)
Also, it increases our number of major armed services from 6 to 7 (Army, Navy, AirForce, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard, and now SPACE FORCE!) Where before we had 120 potential interactions between the branches, now we're moving up to 720 combinations. Chaos, indeed.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:46AM (6 children)
Aren't the Marines technically a branch of the Navy? That would make it a change from 5 to 6.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:51AM
There's technically, then there's administratively - as far as I can see, the Marines' administration is pretty well siloed away from the Navy.
They all report to the CinC, so technically it's one big team, but something like Space Force will be creating a Marine-like silo in the Air Force, which was itself the "Army Air Corps" when my Grandfather served in WWII.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:33AM (1 child)
No. It's a common misperception, but they have been legally separate branches of the armed forces since around the end of WWII.
The confusion remains because both are still administered under the Department of the Navy, but all the statutes enumerating separate armed services list the Marines as a separate entity, they have their Commandant as a full member of the Joint Chiefs, etc.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:23PM
Let us consider Annapolis. Boys, and now girls, sign up for education, then service, at the Naval Academy. They put in their four years, learning STEM type stuff. In their final couple of months, they have to decide - "Am I going to take a commission as a Naval Line officer, or as a Marine?" The Commandant still takes his marching orders from the Chief of Naval Operations.
Yes, the Commandant is a member of the Joint Chiefs, because the Commandant understands better than the Chief what his men and equipment can do. But, Commandant is still subordinate to the CNO. It would take an act of congress to change that. Then what? Would we get a Two Star Commandant, a Vice Commandant, maybe a Rear Commandant? That could be interesting. But, until congress decides differently, the Marines will be part of the Department of the Navy.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:46AM
They used to be, yes, but they got promoted to a full branch of their very own a good while back.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:03PM (1 child)
this is inefficient. they need to adopt devops model. fire all the middle management, flatten the organization. use proven agile methodologies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:46PM
And no sitting during meetings, not even in the lifeboats!
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:51AM (5 children)
From six to seven? You might want to count again. The Marine Corps is part of the Navy, just like the Supply Corps, Civil Engineer Corps, Dental Corps, Chaplain Corps, JAG Corps, and the Medical Corps are part of the Navy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_staff_corps [wikipedia.org]
https://www.navycs.com/officer/ [navycs.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:41AM (4 children)
Fake news.
You give links as if they're supposed to mean something, but if you actually follow those links you discover the Marine Corps is NOT listed among those other groups.
The Marines have been a legally separate branch of the US military since 1798, but that hasn't stopped the Navy (and sometimes the Army) from periodically trying to claim them... Though in 1947 the Marines were more or less permanently established as a separate branch (even though they still share civilian authority oversight within the Department of the Navy).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @08:44AM (2 children)
Oh, fuck, now you have done it, Runaway, you imbecile! You have triggered an actual veteran, and goddamn Marine, at that. May god have mercy on your soul, your "stolen valor" pretender, when actual Marines lock in on your coordinates. Well, at least the rest of us will not have to put up with your bullshit for much longer. Nice knowing you, Runaway!
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:24PM (1 child)
You are so shallow, and so obvious, Aristarchus.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:19PM
Says the pot to the kettle.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:29PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Marine_Force [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 5, Informative) by ilPapa on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:18AM (38 children)
That fact does not preclude the fact that Trump announced it today as a way to distract from all the Russia probe problems and the kiddie concentration camps that he's opening up along the border and filling with brown children who have been taken from their families.
This is some straight-up Nazi shit now. We're not even hiding anything any more. We're looking at a white supremacist administration enacting a policy of ethnic cleansing.
A reckoning is coming, though. Count on it.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 3, Funny) by SomeGuy on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:37AM
No, it's orange supremacy. In fact, that is why he wants to create this space force. He wants to return to his home planet of Cheeseball and have them start the invasion.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:41AM (12 children)
It sure is "funny" how conservstives were yelling about camps being built and it turns out they dont mind when it isnt themselves. Im "shocked".
(Score: 5, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:31AM (11 children)
Just remember that the (un)Holy Trinity of the modern "conservative" consists in projection, hypocrisy, and willful ignorance, and their actions begin to...well, not make sense, but be understandable as to why they were chosen.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:39AM (1 child)
If you were projecting, and you also had hypocrisy, and willful ignorance, wouldn't you then wrongly say that conservatives do all that? You just did.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:35PM
*Everyone* projects, and everyone has some degree of hypocrisy and ignorance. The difference is, I try to minimize mine and root it out day by day. Whereas people like that turn it into a lifestyle. Tu quoque is *also* a fallacy.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 19 2018, @01:37PM
Don't that apply to anyone who subscribes to any philosophy rather than figuring what they believe out for themselves?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:31PM
ROFLMAO!!
(Score: 3, Disagree) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:20PM (6 children)
I honestly don't think that characterizes conservatives any more or less than anyone else. Progressives like to think they don't do any of that, but they do just as much. How else could they pretend Obama didn't also treat illegal immigrants the same way? I remember the (few) stories that bucked the MSM narrative and reported how awfully Obama treated them. He, in turn, was merely continuing how Bush & Cheney treated them. So let's not pretend that the federal government has done anything but treat illegal immigrants disgracefully.
But that's not the only yardstick by which to measure Obama's "progressive" administration. How about black progress under his 8 years? Did they make any real progress at all? Nope, their unemployment rate was multiples the average.
How about administration transparency? Obama prosecuted leakers like Snowden mercilessly. Did he pardon Snowden when he was about to leave office? Nope. Greatest American hero in my lifetime, no one else having done so much for so many at the cost of his own future, but Mr. Progressive, Barack Obama, couldn't be bothered to do the one thing that was entirely within his power to do. And where were the principled progressives, the pundits, the very serious people (tm) then? Were they crying out and calling Obama every name in the book? Nope. Hypocrisy, much? Yep.
Healthcare? Obama passed a plan designed by Mitt Romney. Progressives exercised a great deal of willful ignorance on that one.
In short, it's not helpful at all to keep playing the game the lizard people want us to play, which is pointing fingers at each other instead of at them.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:31PM (4 children)
See, Phoenix, I'm not a big fan of Obama. He was slightly less bad than Clinton would have been and (the other) Clinton was, but still basically a midline Republican, i.e., to the civilized world a borderline fascist. His extrajudicial drone killings did not escape me, nor his mania for deportations, nor his slavish (oops!) worship of the intelligence agencies, nor his opaque, arrogant cabinet. Don't get the false impression I treat this stuff like a team sport, okay? They're ALL corrupt as hell and have been since before I was born.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:25PM (2 children)
Kinda funny how Phoenix has switched to the conservative "team" since Trump got elected. Survival instinct? New Yorker pride?
It is kind of amusing how pointing out the flaws of others immediately gets a bunch of bullshit reverse accusations. Whatabout Hannity? Whatabout Maddow? Whatabout North Korea? Whatabout the EMAILS!!??!?!
Critical thinking at its finest!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @07:52PM
Christ knows. I've just about given up on humanity as a whole honestly.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:40AM
I have not switched to the conservative "team." It might look like that to folks who view the world through the lens of teams. It's more that I have become disenchanted with teams, especially when those teams have been designed with such divisive, nefarious purposes in mind.
(FWIW, I have no position on Hannity vs. Maddow. I cut the cord more than a decade ago. Before then I never watched Hannity, and have never. Maddow I used to enjoy on Air America but never really watched on TV, except for an exceptionally incisive conversation she had with Jon Stewart who simply eviscerated her as a media hack; it broke the spell of Maddow for me then and I never looked back.)
What I was reacting to in Azuma's post was the characterization of conservatives, because it echoes the trope of the teams. It is hard to stop echoing that trope, but we must. We can't have watched the mask being ripped off the progressive "team" since the election, with even the #metoo stuff alone, and still buy into the fiction that one team is better than the other. We can't have the exposes on the election rigging the DNC did in the primary process, which has been substantiated, and claim that Trump colluded with Russians, which is unsubstantiated, to rig the general election with a hundred thousand dollars of Facebook ads and focus nearly exclusively in the national MSM narrative on the latter to the total exclusion of the former, and still talk about "this team is better than that team, these people are less or more virtuous than those people."
It won't do to redefine the labels through a "No True Scotsman" hermeneutic cycle, in the way that many progressives are backing away from the DNC mess in a quest for "true" progressives, or in the way conservatives are parsing their perceived team into "true" conservatives vs. RINOs. We have to chuck it all out.
We need a new discursive alignment that maps to the realities of today. That's all.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:21AM
I know that, Azuma; you do pierce the veils of BS out there.
It was the use of the team labels I was reacting to. I wouldn't even bother to raise it with others, because they do treat it all like a team sport and pointing it out would be a waste of breathe. With you it's a plea to resist autonomically repeating tropes that need to die, because I am trying very hard myself not to autonomically repeat them. It is made harder by the absence of a newer, better intellectual framework to use instead, right?
Yes, Trump wants to create a Space Force. It sounds silly, but China has been adding anti-satellite weapons to its arsenal and military doctrine. Other countries are quickly developing their own space programs. As much as we'd like to see it as a unifying, Federation of Planets experience, it would be foolish and contrary to historical experience to think space won't be militarized.
It also sounded silly when Reagan announced the Star Wars program. But that research continued, and now we have the US navy implementing rail guns on its ships.
History is replete with other shifts in military thinking. At the outset of WWII the Poles still had a cavalry with actual horses that was promptly slaughtered by German panzers. The old men who knew everything in the Polish military command surely thought armor was silly, too.
Generals in the American Civil War still used the massed infantry formations that had been used in the American Revolution, but meanwhile rifling replaced smooth bores and Gatling guns were invented, and the casualties were accordingly massive.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:33PM
How else could they pretend Obama didn't also treat illegal immigrants the same way?
I think it's probably because he did not, in fact, treat immigrants in the same way.
Attorney General Announces Zero-Tolerance Policy for Criminal Illegal Entry (Friday, April 6, 2018) [justice.gov]
This is the result of a NEW policy.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:43AM (9 children)
We're not up to ethnic cleansing yet, what he is (and therefore we are) doing is being the biggest asshole he thinks he can get away with just to frighten brown people into staying out of his orange spray-tan world.
There are no gas chambers, there are no(t a significant number of) killings - there's just a bunch of legal-bureaucratic ratcheting up of TSA and border control nightmare stories into real life: who the fuck is stupid enough to bother with that hassle? deterrents to discourage brown people from even trying to enter the country, much less get legal right to work papers.
It's the same shit they play on the poor: oh, you are starving are you? Well, let's see just how unpleasant we can make this free food, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, etc. You've got a mental disability? Oh, too bad so sad, wait for 18 months while we find somebody to help you navigate the system.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:42PM (2 children)
I hate the TSA. Throwing poor people into cells for the crime of wanting a better life and holding them there for years is despicable. Bureaucracies very much want to make everything as difficult as possible for everyone, no matter what it is, no matter who they are, because that's the creatures bureaucrats are.
But let's take a step back and look around. Are these practices new and unique to Donald Trump? No, they are not. Obama did it before him, and Bush & Cheney before him, and so on.
If you have studied American history you know that after those nice Chinese built the transcontinental railroad for us, and set the table for the dramatic economic expansion that powered the US to global supremacy, the Main Stream Media of the time ginned up the Yellow Peril and had them all ethnically cleansed out of the country. The Irish immigrants who were fleeing starvation in the Potato Famine were literally impressed into the Union Army at the docks when they got off the ships and sent to die in the tens of thousands fighting the Confederates. That was a warm welcome to America, now, wasn't it? How about ostracising ethnic Germans and Austro-Hungarians in WWI, cleansing the language of terms like "sauerkraut," and subjecting them to constant government surveillance? How about rounding up all the Japanese and putting them in camps in WWII for the crime of being ethnically Japanese?
So please spare us the, "Donald Trump is the only one who has ever done this," spiel. It's a stain on American character, and always has been.
We can take a further step back and ask ourselves what other advanced countries do.
In Japan there are generations of ethnic Koreans who were brought over as slave labor and still to this day are not Japanese citizens. In Switzerland, that bastion of neutrality and fairness, women were only granted the right to vote in, what, the 90's? It also has a substantial Tamil minority that has been there for generations and are not granted Swiss citizenship. Even Canada limits its immigrants such that half of them have to be francophones, to placate Quebec. In short, most other countries in Europe and elsewhere don't practice open borders, either, and many of them are worse than America.
Taking a further step back, we can ask if it's fair for the citizens of a country to take on the burden of more, poor people when the country doesn't even supply their own needs. And why, if those more, poor people must be taken in, should the burden of their upkeep be shouldered by the poorest in the country they're entering? Shouldn't those desperate people be taken in by the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts and hedge fund managers and such, first? Surely they have the estates and the outbuildings and the acreage to house them, and the deep pockets to feed them. They have their own private doctors who can tend to their wounds and private security to make sure they're protected and organized.
How about that, instead of asking the poorest, most desperate corners of our own land to host them?
I don't necessarily hold those views myself, but reasonable people can and it is worth discussing them in a reasonable fashion. So insinuating what's happening at this moment is unprecedented and one step shy of ethnic cleansing does not create a discourse where that can happen.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:17PM (1 child)
Absolutely, and we were absolute flawless gems of humanity during World War II [wikipedia.org] also, weren't we?
Instead of moving "forward" in our treatment of fellow human beings, we do seem to be going backwards, faster than any time since the years immediately post 9-11, and we didn't even have a big scary event to prompt it this time (unless you count the election...)
My Indian colleagues are considering pulling up stakes because of the uncertainty, and that's exactly what he wants - too bad he can't see how that hurts the businesses that the brown people work for.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:57AM
Yeah, I don't even know that we can discern that change in the rate of change. A lot of people loved life when Bill Clinton was president, and that was while he did jack to stop the genocide in Rwanda, which he totally could have.
Bush & Cheney did awful things to muslims in the US after 9/11; it hit Brooklyn hard, where there's a large muslim population, and nobody stuck up for them except for me, my best friend the Orthodox Jew who is the most humane, principled guy I know, and a few hapless Green Party people nobody ever listens to. The progressives around us were almost totally mute about the actual torture they were inflicting on those guys, the black sites the CIA was running overseas and on American soil. The extraordinary renditions (read, "kidnappings") they were doing. And on and on. They were fine with all that stuff being done to muslims, because they were bad guys.
Latinos have gotten a raw deal throughout. Always have, and still always do. I delve a lot into educational data nowadays in NYC, and of all the immigrant groups they have it worst. They get stuck in the worst schools, with the worst resources, the worst teachers and principals, and have the worst educational outcomes. That's been going on for decades and Trump had nothing to do with it.
So given all that, I don't know that South Asians have much to worry about. They get carte blanche thanks to the H1-B program. They're goodies, not baddies.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:41PM (5 children)
Kinda sorta.
The goals of the Trump administration's immigration policy sure seems to be "Round up all the brown Spanish-speaking people who can't prove they're citizens and send them south of the US-Mexico border." And the policy in Puerto Rico sure seems to be "Let them all die through neglect." It's not genocide a la Bosnia or Rwanda, but there's a definite tinge of trying to change the ethnic composition of the US through force of arms.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:53PM
If he's not careful with Puerto Rico, they're going to end up with more modern, efficient and desirable infrastructure than New York.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:09PM (1 child)
If you think he really cares whether they are citizens or not, you have more respect for him than I do. My take on it is that he just feels limited in what he can get away with.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:33PM
I think his people care about the citizenship issue for appearance's sake. They want to be able to tell the public that this is to crack down on criminals, even though what they're really thinking is "Finally getting rid of more of those damned wetbacks".
Some more stuff worth noting:
1. It's entirely possible the kids in question are US citizens. The burden of proof in deportation hearings is on the kid, and the kid doesn't have access to either their parents or a lawyer or (and this is really key) their own paperwork. So if you're, say, born in Fresno, and are rounded up by ICE, you might still get deported because you can't get the birth certificate from Fresno because you're a kid who's been locked up incommunicado.
2. Many more had arrived seeking asylum because drug cartels were trying to kill them.
3. Even if the kids did arrive illegally, it's not like they really had a choice in the matter. Imagine your 7-year-old self, and your parents decide you're moving to a different state, it's not like you're going to be easily able to say "No, I'm staying here", nor are you really going to understand that making this trip is something you might get in trouble for.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 20 2018, @07:40AM (1 child)
Latino immigrants are treated worse than others. Chinese don't get treated that way. South Asians are welcomed with open arms, thanks to the H1-B visa program. Muslims have been rather persona non grata lately, but that's relatively recent.
But none of what the Latinos are experiencing can be compared to genocide or ethnic cleansing, unless you want to bleed all meaning out of those concepts entirely. Latinos who acquired citizenship legally are not being stripped of their passports and deported. Latinos who have been here for generations are not being uprooted and sent back to Cuba, or Mexico, or whereever. Those things would render comparisons with ethnic cleansing relevant.
If we want open borders, fine, but that should work both ways. We should be able to go anywhere we want, too, and have those people indefinitely give us free food, housing, education, and walking around money indefinitely, too. I like to ski, and would be perfectly happy to be able to spend half the year in South America, Chile, say, skiing on those suckers' dime, get to vote out the politicians there that want to cut off my free ride, and then come back to North American when the powder picks back up here. But, what's that? Those countries won't let us do that? Why not? If it's such a good idea for the US to do it, then why not for them?
Me, I hold the belief that the ultimate wealth of a country lies in its people. Drop the right people with the right skills and the right practices onto a bare slab of rock, and in a couple decades they will have really built something. So oppressing the majority of a country whose people do have all that, and grinding them into poverty or desperation such that they will go anywhere else, is monumentally economically stupid. It's as stupid as the Khmer Rouge exterminating the entire skilled, professional class in Cambodia, or Idi Amin kicking all the South Asians who constituted the merchants and professionals out of Uganda.
So having a bunch of people knocking on your national door, people with the grit and gumption to get there, is like getting a gift of human capital from the source countries that are too stupid to hold onto the wealth they have. But shouldn't the recipient country get to pick & choose who gets to stay? Shouldn't the people who are citizens of that country get to dictate terms?
If not, then such a country is kind of asking for the catastrophes that befell the Palestinians who indiscriminately let unlimited numbers of Zionists in, or the Wampanoag who took pity on the bedraggled and starving Pilgrims.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Friday June 22 2018, @08:12PM
WRONG! I told my USCIS, take a look at the naturalized citizens. Because a lot of them are liars, they lied on their applications. Or they didn't have the right documents, they showed their documents to Obama's people. Well, Obama's not the President anymore. I am. And they have to show those documents to MY people. And so many say, "so sorry, I lost my documents, I don't have those documents anymore." That's too bad. Because we do what we call DENATURALIZATION. Fancy way of saying, congratulations, you lied, you fooled Obama, you don't fool me, you're not American anymore, go back where you came from!!!!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:42AM (3 children)
There are very few countries in the world where your family goes to prison with you. North Korea is one. Do you think we should follow their example?
All 8 years of the Obama administration, illegal aliens were separated from their supposed children. Yeah, about that... lots of them are kidnapped children being used to get some sort of status advantage in our legal system. Evidently the illegal aliens got better treatment if they had children, so they brought children even if they had to swipe them.
Anyway, we can change that, but illegal aliens don't deserve better treatment than other criminals. You should get to take your kids to prison if you are somebody like Flynn or Manafort. You should get to take your kids to prison if you are a car thief, arsonist, burgler, prostitute, drug dealer, or whatever. Yes? No? If you don't agree, then you aren't being consistent.
It'd be a major change to our prison system. Costs there would skyrocket, though perhaps there would be savings elsewhere.
(Score: 2) by Taibhsear on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:48PM
Big fat citation needed here.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:50PM
The way it looks, Trump may take his children to prison with him.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:01PM
On this particular point, for this particular example, why, yes, yes I do believe that detaining a family at the border for a matter of paperwork insufficiency is a very good reason to have a holding facility where they can be together while things get straightened out. Prison for people who have done nothing wrong but stand in line with what they thought was sufficient documentation but the bureaucracy doesn't see it that way? Innocent until proven guilty isn't just for citizens, or is it? Are all your citizenship papers in order and on your person? (after the cop in the field took them from you and threw them in the river?) No, well, let's toss you into Prison until you can make them appear from thin air then, shall we?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:48AM (2 children)
You'd prefer they be illegally shoved in cells with adults? Interesting.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @10:15AM (1 child)
So, the Republican "Pizza Gate Child Prostitution Ring" was just Republican projection after all? Are you not ashamed, TMB?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:36PM
Pretty sure Uzzard doesn't know the meaning of shame...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:58AM (4 children)
We don't want what is happening with immigration in Europe to happen with us! The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. VERY WEAK leader in Germany. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture! Big problem, someone needs to find a solution to that one. The United States will not be a migrant camp and it will not be a refugee holding facility. It won’t be. If you look at what’s happening in Europe, if you look at what’s happening in other places, we can’t allow that to happen to the United States. Not on my watch!
(Score: 4, Informative) by isostatic on Tuesday June 19 2018, @10:30AM (3 children)
Err, crime in Germany is at its lowest level since 1992
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:42PM
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:03PM
Fake news!!! Look at all the brown faces on the street!!! When I grew up, brown faces on the street meant a high crime area, and all those extra brown faces in Germany now, must mean higher crime - I know it because it is true /s (in my own head.)
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:22AM
There's a brain surgery where the brain doctor cuts the very special "wiring" between the 2 sides of the brain. It completely changes the person they do that to. And nobody knows how to undo the cutting of those "wires." Well, that was Germany in 1992. Because they had an American side, they had a Russian side. Separated for so long. And they tried to put them back together. It was a mess. It's still a mess.
The time when Germany was great was a long time before that. They had respect for law & order. And it took them very far. They won overwhelmingly against France. And they did amazingly well against Poland, the UK, Russia, the USA -- so many. They lost but they put up a tremendous fight. And now we protect them with NATO. They owe us vast sums of money, they're not paying. Sad!!
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:08PM (1 child)
What would the reckoning be? Kill the white people and open the borders until the country collapses because suicide is better than having borders? The logical opposite is somewhat less appealing that the breathless claims.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:36PM
Nah, we just kick out one alt-reich jackass for every person we let in. Chances are quite good we'll end up with a better country.
Oh, that means you're out BTW, just didn't want you to misinterpret my meaning.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:20PM (1 child)
Its far worse than that, in the sense that every branch loves sexy satellites. US Army MOS 25S satellite operator, US Marin Corps MOS 0627 Satcom operator. I don't know how Coast Guard ET ratings handle shipboard satellite ground stations, maybe there isn't a special job title but its organic to the ratings in general. Naval Space Command is in Virginia with 400 or so people. Needless to say the Navy runs the fences, those high powered satellite radar installations, in direct competition with the flyboys ICBM monitoring system, typical.
I am not shitposting in that the Coast Guard was planning on launching some cubesats for EPIRB research and operations.
Never underestimate the ability of "the military" to duplicate efforts to appear capable. A high school buddy of mine enlisted into a job working on our Navy's Army's Air Force electronic gadgetry.
IN THEORY if all this "space stuff" were centralized that would save a lot of BS.
I am a little unclear, perhaps because its classified, on the demarcation point between, say, SF satellite operators (the two commo sgts on each team) vs their shared satellite time on a shared milsat or maybe shared navy fltsatcom sats.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:09PM
They don't own the satellites, they just use them. They also down own their crypto equipment, NSA does. They just use and maintain them.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday June 20 2018, @12:19AM
Yeah but now Trump is doing it so its bad and evil and racist and sexist.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 5, Funny) by mrpg on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:10AM (4 children)
Remember, submissions guarantee citizenship.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday June 19 2018, @10:18AM (2 children)
Oh, how you jest!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @11:09AM
You're volunteering? I knew SN would eventually make a space monkey out of deathmonkey, but you already seem a bit past the oort cloud.
(Score: 3, Funny) by mrpg on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:56PM
Dear friend submissions guarantee citizenship, but submissions are not guaranteed to be acepted.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Freeman on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:39PM
Would you like to know more?
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by John Miller on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:11AM (21 children)
I read President Trump's remarks on the White House website. So interesting! He understands that getting control over our border and immigration is so important to America staying first in space. With merit-based immigration, our aerospace industry can hire on a merit basis. Not a lottery! whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-national-space-council-signing-space-policy-directive-3 [whitehouse.gov]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:47AM (18 children)
Whose merits? Like the Bahamas? Anyone can become a Bahamian citizen, instantly, all you have to do is invest $500,000 in the Bahamian economy, for instance by buying a home or starting a business. Oh, and of that $500K, there's a $50K "processing fee" that gets taken straight off the top and given to the government. Don't have the bread? You're welcome to stay in a hotel, gamble in the casinos, and drink in the bars, maybe charter a diving or fishing trip or two until your tourist visa runs out, then we need you to GTFO and go make some more money to come spend here.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:33AM (17 children)
John Miller and theRealDonaldTrump are the same person, and they have consecutive UIDs. I'd say spam-mod his ass, but apparently that's verboten for reasons unknown...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:51AM
Mostly because being annoying while sticking to the topic at hand is perfectly legit. Otherwise anyone who disagreed with anyone else would have karma so low they'd never be able to post again.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0, Touché) by Sulla on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:56AM (9 children)
So the john miller makes a post that is on topic and you mod it offtopic, then make an offtopic bitch about it. Sounds like you are the real spammer.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday June 19 2018, @08:55AM (8 children)
Sulla, I modded you down, again. I don't understand what you are trying to say, and it contributes nothing to the discussion, except that to once again point out that you are a poor conservative being discriminated against for your lack of knowledge and intelligence. Could you give us some corrections?
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Sulla on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:39PM (7 children)
Azuma is being a hypocrite is the jist of what I was saying. Regardless of how much you hate what they say, the Miller and TRDT accounts are often on topic. Disliking what someone says does not make it off topic. On the specific post in question the Miller account spewed a bunch of gobbligoop and posted a link to something about the event. Seemed clear to me that this is poking fun/insulting the Trump admin for always using subjects people think are interesting to push an issue they want on the forefront.
The Miller post is spam depending on who looks at it. All responses to his post complaining that it is offtopic have clearly been offtopic. Thats Azumas post, mine, and yours my dear Arist.
Who is the spammer? The person making posts that are 30% on topic, or the person who responds to those posts with a 100% offtopic bitch about it.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:33PM (6 children)
Oh fuck off. If you don't see why sockpuppetting is a problem maybe you don't belong on a public forum.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday June 19 2018, @05:38PM (5 children)
I find attempts to restrict or hide speech you disagree with to be far more dangerous than some random asshat. The left keeps claiming Trump and the right are threats to the republic, yet do everything they can to stop people from speaking freely through threat or legislation.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:32PM (4 children)
Citation needed.
And even if I give you that batshit crazy position it is still much preferable to the conservative "censorship" that ruins people's lives a lot more directly.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday June 20 2018, @12:21AM (3 children)
Citation needed. At least on this site you can look at the insane points of the folks from the left and the right. You notice that one side never tries to censor the other and goes out of their way to hide as much as they can.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 20 2018, @06:22AM (2 children)
But the other side, the "not all that bright side", does try to fill the conversation with total bullshit, dis-information and fake news and alternative facts. So shutting them up is not censorship, it is just maintaining "The Fairness Doctrine" that the Traitor Ronald Reagan abolished, in order to allow Sean Hannity to be the ass that he is. Sulla, you have been had, bamboozled, hornswaggled, lied to and used! Snap out of it, if you are capable of being an American, faithful to the founding principles, and not an addled Alaskan. Oh, too late, eh?
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:19AM (1 child)
I appreciate how honest you are with bringing up one of the biggest attacks on free speech in the last century. Leftist talk http://www.quadstick.comamericans [www.quadstick.comamericans] to listen to their programming? Demand a law to continue airing programs nobody likes.
We need fairness doctrine in everything. Now that fossil fuels are finally dying out we need to have a fairness doctrine that ensures people can still buy ineffecient and unwanted gas motor versions of vehicles! We need a fairness doctrine that protects big aggriculture so stores are forced to stock foods sprayed with DDT.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday June 20 2018, @09:22AM
Unsure why that link got posted into the comment. Blackberry priv has been acting up the past week.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:14AM (1 child)
Also, some... some see tRDT, Eth, DN, and insane porn guy* as comic relief. *not him though, we all pray for him, even the athiests pray for him.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday June 19 2018, @04:54AM
Believe me, I'm not "insane porn guy." If it's even a guy. Possibly it's a woman that doesn't like men. Pretending to be a man that doesn't like women. Who knows? Nobody really knows. The witch hunt continues!!!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @06:28AM
That guy is more informative and less "gobble down my ideology down your throat" than total sum of all your posts.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 19 2018, @10:51AM
I recognized his foul stench when I came onboard this thread. It's no surprise to find Fox news holding his leash.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by nnet on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:08PM
besides you, who else could possibly care. why are you so afraid of them?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 23 2018, @06:43PM
Does it matter if they are the same person?
Mod the post based on its content, not based on who wrote it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @02:55AM
(where's my --0 Bleargh mod?)
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 19 2018, @03:53AM
John Miller is actually Steven Miller, or even worse, Kellyanneď