People in the past were not all dead by 30. Ancient documents confirm this. In the 24th century BCE, the Egyptian Vizier Ptahhotep wrote verses about the disintegrations of old age. The ancient Greeks classed old age among the divine curses, and their tombstones attest to survival well past 80 years. Ancient artworks and figurines also depict elderly people: stooped, flabby, wrinkled.
This is not the only type of evidence, however. Studies on extant traditional people who live far away from modern medicines and markets, such as Tanzania's Hadza or Brazil's Xilixana Yanomami, have demonstrated that the most likely age at death is far higher than most people assume: it's about 70 years old. One study found that although there are differences in rates of death in various populations and periods, especially with regards to violence, there is a remarkable similarity between the mortality profiles of various traditional peoples.
High infant mortality and inaccuracy at the other end of the age range skew the numbers.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Snotnose on Tuesday July 17 2018, @11:20PM
I figured lots of babies died before they turned 3, but if they made it to 3 they were good for another 70 years.
Then again I took a college statistics class (um, no I didn't. Realized it was important long after I graduated and taught myself. Wasted my time on women's studies and the psychology of old Science Fiction movies instead).
SDSU for the lose! They cancelled my statistics and technical writing classes, ended up taking the aforesaid women's studies and psychology of old SciFi movies classes instead. Which makes me well rounded, or something.
/ Whatever, 10 years after graduation I was well rounded.
// Women's studies. Forced my way in as I was gonna graduate and needed a GenEd class
/// Teacher flat out said if she had her way no males would be in her class
//// Pissed the class off multiple times. Ignore assignments, study 10 minutes before the test, get an A.
///// Psychology of SciFi movies?
////// Interesting as hell, surprising enough, but useless.
/////// A class in basic statistics, or technical writing?
//////// Would have been much more useful
/ I should spend less time on fark
Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 17 2018, @11:23PM (3 children)
aristarchus is still with us...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @12:10AM (2 children)
My joke! You bastard!
(Score: 5, Funny) by aristarchus on Wednesday July 18 2018, @01:44AM (1 child)
I wouldn't say that Trump isn't an idiot, but there are some who would. Let me clarify.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:48AM
I avoid double negatives, they're so hard for folks to understand. And even single negative, it's a little hard. When I'm doing a press conference, I'm trying to get my message out. That's so important. And it's a lot of people watching -- my shows always get tremendous ratings. So a lot of pressure.
And I know you're thinking, "oh, what about Obama, very smooth talker!" And he is a smooth talker. He tells you exactly what you want to hear. But it's VERY PHONEY. He ran on Clean Coal, he said he loves Clean Coal. Then he gets into office, he's killing our great coal industry. The Clean Coal and everything else -- the JOBS. So fake!!!
I'm not fake, I'm very real. And I don't know if you've ever taken a trip to Europe, it's a long plane ride. Lots of Time Zones. Lot of jet lag. And to be honest, I didn't get enough sleep. Not easy to sleep with so many beautiful ladies around -- trust me, the Finland ladies are some of the best. So I said something that was sort of the opposite of what I meant. And you come on here to make fun of it in a nasty tweet. That's not great. Not great at all.
But I said something I meant 100%. I said I have GREAT confidence in MY intelligence people. So hopefully everybody gets the message about that one!!!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 17 2018, @11:57PM (18 children)
People knew the earth was round 2500 years ago and old people existed too. Thinking that before Columbus people were afraid to fall off the edge of the earth, or that everybody died at 25 are popular fallacies that I hope my fellow readers here never believed.
(Score: 3, Touché) by bob_super on Wednesday July 18 2018, @12:47AM (14 children)
And people also believed that America was Greater before.
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:03AM (9 children)
Read the bible - people in ancient times lived to 900+ years old. It's in the bible...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday July 18 2018, @05:58AM (8 children)
Anyone know at what point in time we defined what a "year" is? Was it before Moses? Could it have been confused with a lunar cycle? I read that there was a lot of confusion regarding Kepler, Copernicus, and Galieo before we got our celestial mechanics nailed down.
Sure, we have a pretty exact definition of what a year is... did "they" have that same definition? I guess I have to cite really old things like Stonehenge as evidence of earlier understanding of solar cycles, and I still do not know if Stonehenge and earlier stone "temples" were constructed with observing solar phenomena in mind, even though they can be used for that purpose. We sure seem to have a lot of unexplained mysteries in our past. Sure makes me wonder if life on this planet was seeded by an ancient spacefaring race.
My guess is we will find the answer on the moon.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 18 2018, @10:32AM (7 children)
As with all things, it does often get lost in the translation... those high biblical ages do seem more likely to be lunar cycles than solar cycles, but that sounds like too much science for a Sunday morning.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday July 18 2018, @02:51PM (6 children)
The Hebrew Calendar is a good place to start, if you really want to go down that road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar [wikipedia.org]
TL;DR
You can either take the bible as truth or you can dismiss it. The bible is clear that you can't sit on the fence and expect that since you didn't do anything horrible that you'll be saved.
Revelation 3:15-16 KJV "15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3:14-22 [biblegateway.com] (This defaulted to the NIV for me instead of the KJV, but the semicolons in the version part of the link were breaking something.)
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 18 2018, @04:20PM
I really think a middle ground (probably strongly slanted to the skeptics' side) is a better use of the information. It is a long developed record of certain information that the holders of that information thought worthy to pass along, there's great insight into the human condition within the pages (for instance, try an online searchable bible and look for marriage - the two passages you hear at weddings are there, as well as about 50 others that describe misery, murder, and all sorts of unpleasantness associated with the institution...)
Quoting scripture without careful introspection of what you are trying to say and why is a great way to set my BS filter to max, but if you can draw connections to real life it doesn't hurt as a starting point for understanding and confirmation that you're not just living in an anomaly.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:33AM (4 children)
If this looks like it might be a soylent bug, please tell us more. Just recently, I've looked at the automatic linkifying code, in particular with respect to how it treats punctuation, maybe I have broken something. Either reply here, or hop onto #dev on the IRC server, and you can tell us how to reproduce the issue.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:24PM
I posted an example of the problem in the dev channel. Not sure anyone was there.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:28PM (2 children)
https://logs.sylnt.us/#dev/2018-07-19.html [sylnt.us] Has the link example that showed up broken when I chose preview, before I submitted my comment.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:10PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:30PM
Explanation at https://dev.soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/05/01/117209&page=1&noupdate=1#comment_31539
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @06:20AM (3 children)
People lived roughly as long as they do today until the discovery of cigarettes.
Not quite true - heavy rates of burning wood or coal reduced life expectancy in cold countries pretty badly, coupled with high population densities.
In northern Europe starvation also killed a lot of people until frozen and tinned food were invented.
I believe childbirth killed a lot of women until very recently. Still does in a lot of Muslim countries as a result of child brides.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday July 18 2018, @07:10AM (2 children)
> I believe childbirth killed a lot of women until very recently. Still does in a lot of Muslim countries as a result of child brides.
Still does in the US [wikipedia.org], lower than third world countries, but three to six times the rate of other developed countries.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @07:16AM (1 child)
Doesnt the US count differently than other countries? Eg, a longer period after the birth counts as "in childbirth".
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday July 18 2018, @07:27AM
RTFWiki [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:50AM
I heard this was a psyop by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians so no one would find out where they were mining all that silver and tin. They didn't want anyone else exploring the impassable Mare Tenebrosum.
https://phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html [phoenicia.org]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:37PM (1 child)
Consider the Ptolemaic epicycles to be just like the Fourier decomposition of a function.
Within the limits of observational accuracy, epicycles accurately predict the future positions of the heavenly bodies.
Epicycles break down with increasing accuracy of observational measurement.
Those measurements were always made with a transit. It's just like a gunsite that can move along just one axis to measure the altitude of an object in the sky, as well as a clock that one uses to record the time it transited, that is, the time that it achieved its greatest altitude.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:48AM
(planet - earth) - (sun - earth) = (planet - sun)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday July 18 2018, @12:46AM (14 children)
Modern primitive tribes members work around 4 hours a day. Mind that they exist in a rather harsh environment as all good places are taken by so called civilised folks
Estimation vary, but during old days our ancestors probably worked 2 hours a day max.
They also had a good social security system designed to keep aggression in check. All olders became elders and do nothing while drinking beer and advising youngsters on issues. With 2 hour a day work requirement it's probably plausible to spend bigger part of one's live in retirement.
So, absent injury or sickness, the life expectation got to be sky high and life is generally very happy.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @01:01AM (1 child)
Modern primitive tribe members work 4 hours per day selling crack, and spend the other 20 hours listening to hip-hop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @01:18AM
Then legalize it so the market is quickly monopolized by two or three corporations. That will show them.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Wednesday July 18 2018, @01:50AM (3 children)
The two went together, as well. You might well get by on 4 hours a day - in good times - but that's 4 hours of real work, not loafing around, not sitting in a chair.
And the food you could gather in those 4 hours of work wouldn't contain a lot more calories than you burned in those 4 hours to get it. There wasn't any cola, or any gummy bears. Just raw foods that you have to work hard to get.
Voilá! No one is overweight! Well, yeah, no one has the opportunity to be.
Many of the big causes of death today are neatly avoided in that scenario, and there are certainly advantages, but you're really falling all the way into the other fallacy - the noble savage rot. No work? Maybe no one to tell you to do this work instead of that, or when to do it, or whatever... depending on the social traditions you might have a lot of autonomy - but you worked. You worked damn hard, or you starved.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday July 18 2018, @02:27AM
In the Middle ages, "a day's work" was sunrise to lunch or lunch to sunset. Part of why we eat poorly is that we are busy working when we should be cooking. You get home, nuke some less than healthy something and due to mental tiredness, vegetate on the couch, then go to bed.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:10AM (1 child)
Depends on where you lived. The natives around here spent about 2 weeks a year harvesting and curing a years worth of salmon, lots of calories for a couple of weeks of work.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:17AM
They didn't cure up a bunch of fish then loaf the rest of the year. The cured fish gave them a reserve for winter - and not enough by itself.
Also they didn't actually cure most of the fish. Back in the day the yield from those runs was way more than they could cure. They probably fed most of it to the dogs. The dogs, also, were part of the food reserve for winter. And fresh dog was preferred to preserved fish.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday July 18 2018, @02:50AM (7 children)
Except that the leading cause of death among primitives is interpersonal violence, or as we'd call it, murder.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:58AM (6 children)
That's because they exist in harsh environment and can't provide social security. Typical mechanism for reducing inter tribe violence is an institution of elders. Good people are elected elders and do nothing but drink beer. Murderers and other violators don't make elders, work till old, and die early in poverty.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @07:26AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @09:04AM
Only if they do it for their work, not for fun.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:32PM (1 child)
The movie "Dead Birds" is a documentary on two tribes in Guinea who from time to time do battle.
Whichever tribe wins enjoys good hunting, fertile women and the like. But the losing tribe knows not but despair, so the the losing tribe loses patience then starts another war.
Eventually just one man dies. Both tribes withdraw, the losing tribe being the one whose man dies.
Just One Man.
Eventually some anthropologists turned up then taught both tribes how to play soccer: no more war.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday July 18 2018, @09:37PM
This is not murder, but war. War was always used in primitive tribes to control the population density. (in modern times war is used to control production capacity)
Here is (I believe South American) example (simplified). Humans could hunt all the meat around and die of hunger - hence hunting taboo on tribe's grounds. Meat is necessary though. The strategy is to kill newborn girls and have boys to go to war with the tribe next door to get girls. While over there, they are free to hunt and eat meat.
Obviously girls are just propaganda and the real goal is to eat other tribe meat and control the population. This arrangement was stable for many thousands years.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:46PM (1 child)
Actually, no. There have been a few studies on the topic, with tribes that had little or no outside contact, and basically murder is the tribal sport, accounting for 40-60% of deaths (and in some cases, nearly all deaths). And they were by no means insecure; they do well enough that most people do very little work. And you get to be an elder by doing unto others first.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:25AM
My friend says you're wrong and could just be making this up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 18 2018, @01:48PM
But at least back then they all completed adolescence before age 35.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by choose another one on Wednesday July 18 2018, @02:06PM (2 children)
"The days of our years are threescore years and ten" - this was known back when Psalm 90 was written.
Thing is, back then when they talked about "how long people usually live" they ignored all the ones who didn't make it out of childhood.
All that has happened since is that people (statisticians) have confused things by applying statistics to whole population and coming out with "life expectancy". Here's the thing, by the time you are old enough to even vaguely understand life expectancy, the most commonly quoted statistics (i.e. at birth) are completely f***ing irrelevant to you.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:28PM
My friend Sonja is a self-employed actuarial consultant. That's a particular kind of Applied Mathematician.
She advises insurance companies on what to charge for their policies.
I'm 54. What is my life expectancy right _now_? I shall pray to Google:
https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html [ssa.gov]
It says I'll die 29.61 years from today, or age 83.61.
When I reach I think it's age 70, or maybe just age 65 I will be required to withdraw from my IRA at a rate determined by my life expectancy at that particular time. That leads me to be concerned that I'll run out of cash long before I die, due to the ever-faster improvements in medical treatments.
Consider that grandpa Crawford was eighty years old when he died from Emphysema after a lifetime of smoking roll-your-own cigarettes.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:23AM
Life expectancy, even excluding infant mortality, went way down with the agricultural revolution.
And came back up with the industrial revolution and modern medicine, refrigeration, and transport.
But it's true that the period between the beginning of agriculture and the beginnings of the industrial world DID see a big dip in life expectancy. This is down mostly to poor diet. Agriculture initially produces large amounts of staple foodstuffs - which means a large population can be kept from starving - but didn't do any good at all for dietary balance - so nutritional deficiencies became common.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday July 18 2018, @03:23PM
I'll have you know that I'm planning to join a gym sometime soon.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]