DW:
New DNA tests on bones of Russia's last czar, Nicholas II, and his family confirm they are authentic. Researchers exhumed Nicholas's father Alexander III — himself assassinated in 1881 — to prove "they are father and son."
The test results could lead to the Russian Orthodox Church recognizing the remains for a full burial. It said it would consider the findings and commended the progress of the investigation.
Nicholas II, his German-born wife and their five children were shot by Bolsheviks as a consequence of the October Revolution of 1917. The bodies of the last members of the Romanov dynasty were thrown into a mineshaft, before being burned and hurriedly buried by the killers. They were first tracked down by amateur historians in 1979, although the discovery was only revealed in 1991. The Russian Orthodox Church had recognized the ex-tsar as a martyred saint in 1981.
[Ed. note: Anastasia's supposed escape and possible survival was one of the most popular historical mysteries of the 20th century, False reports of survival]
(Score: 3, Funny) by driverless on Thursday July 19 2018, @12:07PM (1 child)
Putin: Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, negotiations with the President of the United States, Donald Trump, took place in a frank and business-like atmosphere. I think we can call it a success and a very fruitful round of negotiations. In conclusion I can say that the remains of the murdered Romanovs are definitely 'Authentic'.
Trump: Thank you very much. Thank you. I have just concluded a meeting with President Putin on the issue of the Romanovs. The disagreements between our two countries are well-known. President Putin and I discussed them at length today. On the case of the Romanovs, I hold both countries responsibility. I think the United States has been foolish. We should have had this dialogue a long time ago, a long time frankly before I got to office. I think we’re all to blame for the death of the Romanovs.
Oh, and in addition: I beat Hillary Clinton easily and, frankly, we beat her. And I’m not even saying from the standpoint — we won that race. It’s a shame there could be a cloud over it. People know that. People understand it.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:13PM
I am, for once, ready to actually believe Trump, if he says there was no collusion with Putin against the Romanov family.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @12:16PM (1 child)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_(1997_film) [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @01:00PM
I like the Jodie Foster version [imdb.com] better.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday July 19 2018, @01:18PM (4 children)
Everyone who is rational has known these remains are "authentic" for decades. TFA omits the essential background to this investigation, which was mostly yet another in a long stream of "investigations" encouraged by the Russian Orthodox Church in an effort to promote anti-Semitic conspiracy theories [meduza.io].
Those unfamiliar with this background will undoubtedly think my statement sounds crazy. But this is part of a strand of ultra-nationalist conservatives in Russian these days. You can read more about the history in the link above, but in sum: DNA testing confirmed these were the remains of the Romanovs decades ago. But the Russian Orthodox Church had doubts in the 1990s and forced a reopening of investigations over whether the killing of the Romanovs was a "ritual killing." More specifically, they asked questions about whether there was sufficient evidence of aspects of the killing (such as any evidence of decapitation, use of Jewish elements, etc.) that indicated this was related to a Jewish "ritual killing." (That specific phrase had been used in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about the Romanov murders since the 1920s; note that one of the leaders of the execution was ethnically Jewish, but was an atheist -- the rest of those involved had no relation to Judaism at all.) There were some in the church who apparently thought these remains were even some sort of "hoax" (undoubtedly, in their minds, perpetrated by the Jews).
Since then, the church has forced multiple other investigations, repeating the same stuff over and over. Last year, when this current investigation was reopened, a senior Orthodox bishop (and personal confessor for Putin) yet again referenced the "ritual killing" aspect, which was a dog whistle to the ultraconservative anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists. The church backpedaled afterward and claimed it supposedly wasn't anti-Semitic -- this time, unlike previously, they avoided directly using the word "Jewish" when asking their probing questions -- but the specific phrase and the repeated questions (again, about decapitation and other aspects of the classic Jewish conspiracy theory around these murders) make it clear that similar motives were still behind this.
So no, this isn't "news." It's just something the Russian Church apparently does periodically to keep Jewish conspiracy theories alive. I mean, there are legitimate concerns about identifying the remains for certain, given that the Russian Church canonized the family and thus their remains would become holy relics. But again, the DNA science was settled decades ago. (Well, except for the remains of Alexei and one of his sisters which weren't discovered until 2007, but their DNA was also conclusively confirmed a decade ago.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @02:38PM (2 children)
From what I recall reading of the "Jewish Bolshevism" conspiracy, the actual claims were that atheistic, ethnic Jews inspired by The Zohar [wikipedia.org] were massively overrepresented amongst the Bolsheviki. The myth of sanguinary ritual is then conflated with the Bolshevik death count. Is that accurate?
(Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:17PM (1 child)
"Accurate" is a funny word when dealing with conspiracy theories. While I've read about some of this in the past, and I'm sure your characterization is correct for some conspiracy theorists, I honestly don't care to go back and read more about this now. Suffice it to say that yes, many modern Jewish conspiracy theories depend on the notion that ethnic Jews (not necessarily religious) are all potentially involved. That's how Hitler for example justified his targeting based on ancestry.
In Russia specifically, you had the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [wikipedia.org] nonsense, and stuff from that trickled into the various Bolshevism conspiracy theories [wikipedia.org]. Yes, generally the idea was that a huge number of Bolsheviks were ethnic Jews, and the theory specifically around the Tsar's assassination involved various wacko combinations of Kabbalah, blood libel theories, etc.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @11:48PM
The reason the Russian Orthodox Church keeps bringing up antisemitic conspiracies is over property disputes in Israel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_properties_in_Palestine [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem [wikipedia.org]
https://www.timesofisrael.com/orthodox-patriarch-jewish-settlers-threat-to-christian-presence-in-holy-land/ [timesofisrael.com]
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/12/02/565464499/greek-orthodox-church-sells-land-in-israel-worrying-both-israelis-and-palestinia [npr.org]
It's shit going back 200 years. Suffice to say that one nice example of such religion meets corruption and nationalism is how the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, had the lands it was built on leased from the Church (at below market price as the local Church official was likely bribed) and how the current Palestinian Church officials tend to stir the pot whenever a new Israeli government wants to review the Church's books or when some Palestinian finds their grandfather's Ottoman deeds to lands that the Church claimed ownership over after 48'...
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday July 20 2018, @01:22AM
Hmmm... I wonder why the US administration sanctions against Russia are targeting mostly Russian Jews. The biggest one being Deripaska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Deripaska, [wikipedia.org] a Jew who owns Rusal as well as the biggest house in Washington. Perhaps because he stole Rusal from an Uzbekistan-Izraeli Jew Michael Cherney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cherney [wikipedia.org] who himself is a sponsor of a very interesting organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_Summit [wikipedia.org]
There got to be Putin and Russian church here somewhere - any help finding it?
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Thursday July 19 2018, @02:18PM (6 children)
Try putting yourself in that scene, as one of the Romanovs. Try putting yourself into that scene as one of the perpetrators. It's a sick scenario, no matter which side of the drama you put yourself.
I'm not even a fan of royalty, Russian or otherwise. But, that is what Communism gave the world. Families, villages, towns and cities, even nations, sacrificed for some crazy ideal, that just never works out.
(Score: 5, Informative) by bob_super on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:11PM
The US mostly sacrifices other countries' children, towns and villages for some crazy ideal, whether with Agent Orange, Napalm, cluster bombs, landmines, or to some extent Nukes.
But occasionally, also domestic populations, rivers, neighborhoods, coastlines ...
Dem Bolsheviks ain't crazier than us. They just have different reasons to do crazy shit.
(Score: 4, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday July 19 2018, @11:22PM (4 children)
More of the poorly thought out anti-communist propaganda.
If you had lived under the Romanovs, you might have been keen on the Revolution too. The Romanovs were the most backward, brutal and autocratic of the European Imperial houses, (and that's really saying something).
After all they ended Serfdom in Russia in 1861, and even then only due to extreme political pressure.
As for Nicholas II, he absolutely got what he deserved:1
Soviet historians are correct, he was a total incompetent, but brutal with it.
Frankly the 1917 Revolution was an improvement.
1 I'm not claiming the children deserved to die, but Nicholas certainly did.
* Wikipedia
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @02:24AM
Runaway don't know much about history, don't know much geology, can't remember the French he took, but he do know how to be an asshole, anti-commie asshole.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday July 20 2018, @02:31AM (2 children)
*sigh*
If I had lived under the rule of the Romanovs, I would have grown up speaking a different language, under an entirely different education system, with different parents, a different legal system. In short, I wouldn't be me.
And, you'll also notice that I said nothing good about the tsar. All I have done, is to point out that it was a sick situation, from any point of view. Herd an entire family into a killing field, and execute them all. FFS, the children could have been spared, and re-educated. They could have been USED to the benefit of the state.
Unfortunately, communism views all persons as expendable. People as individuals, as well as people in groups. Entire ethnicities are expendable. Entire nationalities.
Poorly thought out anticommunist propaganda? That's funny, in a way. All communist propaganda is poorly thought out. Promise utopia, and deliver hell on earth - that is communism.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday July 20 2018, @03:08AM (1 child)
If you had grown up under the Romanovs, you would probably defend them.
Are you serious? The Grandchildren of Queen Victoria, and the cousins of every other European ruler? Used by the Bolsheviks? Do you really think they would let that happen?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday July 20 2018, @02:01PM
Obviously, you've not studied any history if you need a citation for the hell on earth bit. The two largest communist countries slaughtered about 20 million people - each. Wake up and smell the coffee.