A quarter-century ago, there were 56 teenagers in the labor force for every "limited service" restaurant — that is, the kind where you order at the counter.
Today, there are fewer than half as many, which is a reflection both of teenagers' decreasing work force participation and of the explosive growth in restaurants.
But in an industry where cheap labor is an essential component in providing inexpensive food, a shortage of workers is changing the equation upon which fast-food places have long relied. This can be seen in rising wages, in a growth of incentives, and in the sometimes odd situations that business owners find themselves in.
Too many restaurants, not enough teens to work in them.
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A Fast-Food Problem: Where Have All the Teenagers Gone?
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by canopic jug on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:07PM (36 children)
The hours put in at such a shop minus the fuel and maintenance for a vehicle mean you won't come out ahead. If the restaurants invested even a pittance into the hourly wages instead of into executive bonuses or executive stock buybacks, you'd have a lot of people to choose from for those jobs. Further, many of those places are unpleasant to work at. It's not the tasks that are unpleasant but the managerial style and hierachies which are more about ballbusting than getting the job done. In short they set out to make the job suck as much as possible, perhaps as extra punishement for it being so low pay. Fix either or both and there will be competition to get into those jobs.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:15PM (17 children)
> minus the fuel and maintenance for a vehicle
... or build infrastructure in such a way that you can *walk* places.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by canopic jug on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:22PM
... or build infrastructure in such a way that you can *walk* places.
Good point but that would make sense only in countries where urban planning is done or even allowed. TFA is from The New York Times which is in a country with neither. However, in NYC itself there is somewhat of an infrastructure, at least compared to most of the rest of the country. But that brings up the idea of subsidization. Currently, in effect, the slave wages are subsidized [theatlantic.com] with the financial benefits going to a few high up in a few corporations. If infrastructure, such as mass transit were subsisdized instead, the benefits would be much wider reaching.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:36PM (13 children)
Where can't you walk to places?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Snow on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:35PM (7 children)
Pretty much anywhere in Canada or the USA that isn't downtown.
My first job I would have to walk to Burger King sometimes when the buses didn't work out. It would take 30 mins if I hopped a 8' concrete sound barrier (there was a power box beside it I could climb on) and then ran across a 6 lane freeway. Otherwise it would take closer to 50 mins. And that was considered close!
(Score: 4, Informative) by Sulla on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:47PM (1 child)
Sulla's AC friend worked at a McDonalds that required him to walk 1.5 hours each way, and this was in Alaska, and this was in the winter. Currently he works at a job paying much better but still has the same walk. And its not like millennials are unwilling to use non-car transport, where I currently live most of them bike or take the bus because they don't want to own a car. The issue is more of a refusal to work at a fast food place or any place making less than 15/hour because student loans are too high to make it affordable. Hell, even if they did take one of those jobs it is unlikely they will get more than 25 hours a week because 30 is now full time and if you work more than 25 you might accidentally go over 30, so you need to juggle two part time jobs and hope you can negotiate schedules between them just to get full time employment.
I got a degree in Accounting from a University that was about average for instate universities, and my student loan payments are 1k/month. So even with 40 hours and 15/hour you gross 2,400/month and about 2k/month after taxes (under old tax plan). So now you have 1k/month after student loans because you are stuck making 15/hour because you can't find a job because they all want several years of infield experience and you couldn't afford unpaid internships. Average rent in the US in 2016 was 1050/month. I think when a lot of the millennials realize this breakdown they just give up.
What percentage of your monthly income was rent when you first started out? What percent of your income was student loans when you graduated college?
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @04:24AM
I lived at home until 22 and only left after a call was made from my house to my girlfriends about us having sex
bye
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:54PM
You forgot the good ol' Canadian saying "And it was uphill both ways in a snow storm!"
:)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:56PM (3 children)
I walked 6 miles to my first job as a courtesy clerk at a grocery for $190/wk (inflation adjusted), even when it was 112F out. A lot of kids did.
https://weather.com/weather/today/l/85042:4:US [weather.com]
(Score: 2) by Snow on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:11PM (2 children)
I miss courtesy clerks. They used to bag your groceries up and put it on a special cart thing and load all that into your car.
Now I have to carry my own groceries.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:29PM
Uphill in the Snow both ways?
Wait, this has possibly undesired connotations
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @03:53AM
There is a supermarket called Publix which does that, more or less. The cart is ordinary.
I get in the checkout line. I put my own groceries on a conveyor belt, though I'm sure I'd get help if I asked. An employee runs my groceries over a scanner/scale, passing them to a second employee who places them into bags. Bags are free, and they ask if I want paper or plastic. That second employee then loads the bags back into the cart. Once checkout is done, the second employee offers to go out to my car with me. If I accept, they will push the cart and then load the groceries into my vehicle. They then take the cart back in.
Publix is the dominant supermarket chain in many areas, particularly in Florida.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:38PM
How much time do you have, and what odds would you accept of not getting there ?
Many suburbs do not have sidewalks along roads where people go 65+. Granted, it's true in Europe too. But people there do expect to regularly have to dodge a pedestrian/cyclist.
(Score: 4, Informative) by pendorbound on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:48PM (2 children)
Most of the US. There are lots of places where apartments with rent you can afford are far enough from the places you can work that you wouldn't be able to walk to work, work your shift, and walk back home in the course of day.
Assuming you'll work an 8 hour shift (good luck finding that...), and would like to have 8 hours of sleep, personal time, etc, you've got a max 4 hour each way commute. Assuming a walking pace of 4 MPH, that means a maximum of 16 miles each way.
The nearest Mc Donalds to me is 13.2 miles. If the route were flat, you'd have almost two hours per day of free time left. Unfortunately it's pretty hilly. Google estimates 8 hours, 12 minutes round trip via Shoe Leather Express. Guess you'll have to get up a little earlier. Sure you could live closer, but move in towards the city, and your rent skyrockets. I'm not sure if there's a sweet spot on that closer in. I expect the closest you can live still leaves you sweaty and disgusting when you get to work (it's been in the 90's during the day most of this month).
There's no bus route between those places. Lyft would cost you about $18 round-trip. That's about 2 hours minimum wage, assuming you throw the driver a $1 tip each way. So you're paying 25% of your gross pre-tax for transportation. And that's assuming you're not getting screwed over with 4-hour shifts.
To survive in the vast majority of the US, access to a reliable car is a necessity.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:56PM (1 child)
E-bikes might be a solution. In NYC Latinos ride them everywhere. The city is hillier than most people realize. Also, they probably don't have much money to spend on transportation, so the economics of it must work out. The speeds on them are 20-30mph, so that's as fast as cars are supposed to go on local roads.
In short, I think people could use that or other means to get to those jobs, if they wanted to.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:45PM
There you go assuming someone did the math. Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't mean there not all losing money on it. I'm not saying they are, but people in general are bad at long term costs, maintenance, and taking account of everything involved. After all people still take loans out to buy new cars to drive into the ground for Uber.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:26PM
It depends on where you live.
Where I lived last year? Sidewalks? Haha get real those cost money. Where I grew up? They were everywhere. Where I live now? It is about 80% done in. It just depends on where you live.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:30PM (1 child)
I like walking, but when it's damned hot or freezing cold I'll be in my heated and cooled car, But, I really don't understand the article, is Springfield different than most places? Half the staff at the Walgreen's down the street are minors and have to make a "service 21" call when I'm buying beer. At McDonald's it's three quarters teens and the rest old women.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:41PM
18 and up can sell alcohol in my state, but fast-food places are almost entirely staffed by 20-somethings and older. There are no good jobs to be had so kids have to compete with adults for the shitty ones. 12/hr and full time is considered a "good job". EBT and medicare are almost universal for apartment-dwellers.
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:31PM (12 children)
How is this different from the past? On my summer jobs, I would work the entire summer (@$84/week) to be able to buy a commodore 64 or a bicycle.
I don't know what kids even spend their money on these days as the things that I would have spent money on are nearly free or free on CL.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:36PM (5 children)
1. Housing
2. Student loans
Glad I could help!
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:58PM
Depends on the age bracket. The GP was clearly thinking of high school, or possibly younger. You seem to be thinking college. But college isn't exactly "teenagers", though some of the freshmen or sophomores are (barely) within the right decade.
OTOH, for cars to even be an option you generally need to be older than 14. (I'm sure that varies by state, but that's the right general age.)
That said, most of the roads around here I don't consider safe for bicyclists, though I'm in a minority, but if you're a teenager a bicycle is probably the vehicle of choice, if there's a safe place to park it.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:48PM (3 children)
At age 16? My parent's didn't kick me out until I was 18.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:28PM (1 child)
18?! Are you some kind of lazy pampered millennial incel?! My parents kicked me out of home when I was 5, and I had to walk uphill to the coal mine both ways in 12 feet of snow in the summer!
(Score: 3, Touché) by DECbot on Friday July 20 2018, @12:07AM
Yeah, but at what age did you leave South America and came to the US?
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2) by Webweasel on Friday July 20 2018, @08:33AM
In the UK, the kid can choose to leave at 16 but only into the army. Your not allowed to kick them out until 18 as they have to stay in education until 18.
Priyom.org Number stations, Russian Military radio. "You are a bad, bad man. Do you have any other virtues?"-Runaway1956
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:21PM (5 children)
They spend their money on tattoos and gender reassignment surgery.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Kell on Friday July 20 2018, @12:04AM (4 children)
No fooling - GRS ain't cheap. You can easily drop $40k on that, depending on where you go. Still beats suicide imho.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @07:14AM (1 child)
Suicide cones later, after you realize your gender wasn't the real problem.
(Score: 2) by Kell on Friday July 20 2018, @08:32AM
What would you posit the real problem to be?
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday July 20 2018, @09:30AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Kell on Friday July 20 2018, @10:18AM
I have heard this, yes. It seems consistent with the model that people seeking surgery would be the most extreme cases; just because you've gotten treatment, doesn't mean your suffering has stopped. I expect by the time a trans person has gotten so far as to get the surgery they've suffered a lot. I had a ring-side seat for it when a my best friend in college got it done. Fascinating stuff, but not something I'd recommend to anyone who wasn't 100% sure they needed it.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:29PM (3 children)
The teen gets "free" transportation from a parent. The cost of that is an investment in the teen's future, much like college is. The goal here is to get references and something to solve the problem of an empty resume. It breaks even, in exactly the same way as college does.
There are teens doing it for a wage of $0.00 per hour, which is somehow acceptable ("volunteer work") but $0.01 per hour is somehow not acceptable. We even allow negative wages ("vocational training program") but we don't allow wages within a small range just above zero.
My teen got a job. He reports that his coworkers, not counting management of course, can be classified into two groups. One group is teens from mid-upper to wealthy families. The other is fucked up adults who commute in from poor areas. It's easy to explain the lack of adults who have their shit together, but what about the lack of poor teens? I think they don't have parents pushing them hard to take career steps. I think the poor teens devote time to TV, the internet, and game players. Perhaps they do something more harmful. In any case, the poor teens are not out there working. Teens like mine, who don't really even need the money, are the only ones working.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:00PM
The teen gets "free" transportation from a parent. The cost of that is an investment in the teen's future, much like college is. The goal here is to get references and something to solve the problem of an empty resume. It breaks even, in exactly the same way as college does.
For the well to do parents with enough free time to taxi their kids around all day... For everyone else: Fuck you, got mine!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Marand on Friday July 20 2018, @02:34AM
Maybe not intentional, but all your examples conveniently lay the blame on them in a "it's their own fault, they're doing it wrong" sort of way. Looking at the various other threads in this discussion about commute times and transportation costs, it seems like another possibility is that maybe the poor kids' families sometimes simply can't manage it. Having the kid bring in some extra income sounds like a win for a cash-strapped family, but it might cost them money they can't afford to lose due to time spent transporting the kid to work. Employers in low-end jobs really like jerking around the employees' hours to keep them out of full-time classification, which leads to people trying to juggle two or even three part-time jobs to make the necessary income to live. How do you ferry around your teen at the whims of another jackass employer's scheduling in that situation? The easy answer would be "just get another vehicle" but that adds even more costs.
Another possibility is some of those poor families are probably trying to keep their kids out of the workforce so they can spend more time studying, hoping to give the kids better opportunities than their parents had. I'm sure there's just as much indifference and other negative reasons too, because families are as different as the people that make them, but only listing negatives like you did makes it sound like you're accusing "the poors" of being poor of their own choice and deliberately (or perhaps just ignorantly) keeping their offspring unsuccessful as well. Again, that was probably not your intent, but the way you worded it carried a hint of self-assured arrogance that your parenting choices are superior, with no consideration of the different situations other parents might be in and how that might influence their decisions. Poor or not, I think most parents want their children to succeed and try to help with that in whatever ways they think they can.
Going off on a tangent a bit, I've seen similar short-sightedness in discussions about cost of living, especially with regard to food costs. Something that always comes up is a suggestion to buy bulk items to save money; it seems like a no-brainer option since reduced packaging costs usually means you get more of what you want for less money. So, every time it comes up, someone inevitably laments how the poor people don't do this obvious, smart thing, and how they're making it worse for themselves, like they're making a conscious decision to lower their quality of life. The problem is they're taking for granted the advantages they already have that make this no-brainer option so easy to take. Notably, buying bulk is cheaper long-term, but requires a larger up-front investment — bulk items are cheaper per-item but cost more up-front, plus stores that specialise in bulk items like Costco have membership fees — that just doesn't exist for someone that's barely making enough money to survive. You have to eat but can't afford the bulk item, so you waste money buying smaller portions, which makes it harder to save enough to buy bulk, continuing the cycle.
Anyway, not trying to argue or anything, just wanted to provide a counter to the vaguely negative "they're doing this to themselves" tone of your job market lamentation. Like I said, I don't think you were trying to be that way with what you wrote, but it's easy for assumptions to creep in and taint attempts at considering other perspectives.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @01:40PM
Bingo. People replying here are thinking like upperclass, not like working class. I see lots and lots of idle teens who are economically lower-class, and largely hanging around the very fast food joints that are begging for employees . Why are these teens not out there hustling for jobs that clearly are right underfoot? Transportation obviously is not the issue; they're already on the spot.
A: between mama's basement and mama's welfare payments, they don't need to, and besides they can make more money growing and selling pot.
And most of the middle-class kids now have fantasies about getting rich after they get their PhD in Useless Studies (which will be paid for by student loans, not by savings from summer jobs), and meanwhile wouldn't be caught dead doing blue-collar grunt work, nor would their parents allow such ignominious labor.
In short, way too many teens now think taking a starter job is beneath them, or are into the drug economy and aren't reliable enough anyway. Hell, half the time these kids can't show up for school; what makes you think they'd show up any more often as an employee?
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:52PM
Yeah, but where did Wendy's 0.99 value meal go? I want my cheap burgers and fries, dammit! Get those underprivileged 12 year olds into the workforce!
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by DavePolaschek on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:16PM (3 children)
Where have the teenagers gone? To https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublemeat_Palace [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:06PM (2 children)
Technically tho was Buffy really a teenager? She was out of highschool trying to make a living in a fast food job at a restaurant that had some alternative meat sources ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:01PM
The secrete ingredient was meat.
(Score: 2) by DavePolaschek on Thursday July 19 2018, @11:59PM
I think the character was 19 that season. But I may be confused.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:21PM
The robutts are rubbing their hands, just waiting to take meatbag jobs.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:22PM (2 children)
Fast food restaurants are staffed by a lot of older, over qualified/underemployed people. The whole "we need a living wage!" movement for fast food employees is due to people trying to make ends meet for themselves or even their families on a fast food paycheck. Traditional fast food teenage employees are not generally looking for enough income to live on their own.
The barrier to entry for teenagers is high when they are competing with adults who have reliable transportation and a developed work ethic.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:30PM (1 child)
Apparently not. TFA talked about places unable to hire enough employees of any age. If teens were just being out-competed for the jobs, the owners wouldn't be crying about having to actually work in their own shops.
The problem is they're used to paying next to nothing and treating teens like sub-humans in those places. The pay and working conditions are so bad that they now can't hire anybody at all.
It looks like even to hire teens again, they need non-insulting pay and non-insulting managers.
All of that is coupled with a proliferation of fast food restaurants. That too stretches the supply of teen workers thin. They might have to resort to a living wage and civil managers to fill the gap.
As for the cries of poor work ethic, pay peanuts, get monkeys. That and in our now lukewarm economy, it's a lot easier to find a new job that pays as little as the law allows. If you want employees to think twice, pay better.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mcgrew on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:34PM
If you can't find workers you're simply not offering enough in pay and benefits. If you can't afford to pay more, you suck as a business[erson and should get a real job.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:25PM (10 children)
This problem will only get worse as AI starts taking those jobs.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:58PM (8 children)
The problem would rectify itself if people stopped buying fast food because it's re-constituted scrapings from industrial meat processors and cardboard, and is killing them with all kinds of horrible chemical additives to improve texture, satiation, etc.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:14PM
Woah there, fella. Just because you choose not to embalm yourself one day at a time doesn't mean that's the right choice for the rest of us.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:30PM
Who cares as long as it has a flavor created by dozens of chemical additives, a flavor which is the result of extensive engineering, manipulation and taste testing.
It's deliciously addictive. When you think of the fast food item, it's distinctive taste comes to mind, unlike with most real food.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:43PM (5 children)
Am I the only person who doesn't buy fast food? It's just too expensive and I can't afford it.
I had a couple extra older trailers on my property and let a woman who was living out of her car move into one for free and despite a garden and all the free food she wanted, she drove out to mcdonalds, kfc and taco bell every day for a minimum 40 mile round trip. w.t.f.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @03:12AM
You are not the only one that doesn't buy fast food--we buy organic when it looks good, cook nearly every meal, go out to dinner once or maybe twice a week at mid-priced restaurants (biased toward high quality food, not fantastic atmosphere).
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Friday July 20 2018, @09:17AM (2 children)
I had a couple extra older trailers on my property and let a woman who was living out of her car move into one for free and despite a garden and all the free food she wanted, she drove out to mcdonalds, kfc and taco bell every day for a minimum 40 mile round trip. w.t.f.
It could be major sugar addiction. It is turning out to be highly addictive when consumed regularly. It becomes really damn hard to reduce sugar intake even if you are aware of the problem and fighting hard to do something about it. Most people don't know and don't care. I'm not sure how the McDonald's products are (I won't call that stuff food) but in decades past it had added sugar, not counting the drinks, and its general tastelessness was overcompensated by a vague umami experience. I can see people getting hooked onto either or both quite easily. Me? I feel very queasy even from just the smell any more.
As for plain sugar I like sugar fine, but I don't enjoy it as much as before and am kind of disliking the taste most of the time. I suppose the same might be true for HFCS but I can't stand the taste. Thus I am starting to notice it just about everywhere. Basically anything pre-made or pre-mixed is going to be loaded with sugar. It's cheap, and if the consumer is unaware of the trick, they're going to get used to the levels and start jonesing for it after a while.
tldr; get her some cheap sugary sauces for the garden produce
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday July 21 2018, @01:53AM (1 child)
Sugar addiction is extensively discussed in Robert H. Lustig's book "The Hacking of the American Mind". It's a real phenomenon, even though there are technicalities about whether it should be called an "addiction" or not.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Saturday July 21 2018, @03:33PM
Sugar addiction is extensively discussed in Robert H. Lustig's book "The Hacking of the American Mind". It's a real phenomenon, even though there are technicalities about whether it should be called an "addiction" or not.
Thanks for the tip. There's an interview with him, The Hacking of the American Mind [youtube.com]. He covers a lot of topics but does mention that fast food has been spiked with added sugar. I'll have to get the book.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @01:43PM
...and probably made a lot of money as a professional beggar at those very fast-food restaurants.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:59PM
The article describes a SHORTAGE of workers. Not an OVERSUPPLY of workers. Therefore AI taking those crap jobs might be a good thing. But maybe not. Maybe the shortage of workers is really because the employers won't pay enough, install suicide nets around their fast food joints to prevent workers from killing themselves, etc.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:46PM (12 children)
We need people to work there.
We can't find people to work there.
But those people are looking for work.
It's almost like there's something missing there... like the job is shit, or the pay isn't worth it? How you could improve either/both of those? Maybe pay them a bit more? Or make the job more appealing? Or provide some benefits they don't have?
The expectation that "we have a minimum wage job so people should be flocking to it, even in the middle of nowhere, for rubbish hours, horrible work, etc." is so wrong.
If you need staff, raise your offered wage. You'll find someone willing to do the job before it gets silly, and they'll be KEEN to do it, and you'll retain them better, and they will crow about how good working there is, and they'll do a better job.
But if you only offer the same as the place down the road, what makes you think someone will choose you just because it's a job?
A vast number of jobs that exist are even worse when you take into account how many people live in the area, how long it takes to get to them, whether you can park, what big towns are nearby etc. etc. etc. - to the point that I've known people in jobs where ultimately they're earning an extreme pittance once their own expenses, time, etc. are taken into account.
If it takes an hour for your employee to get to you from home, their "value for money" just got spread over 40+ hours more than if they were next-door, whatever you're paying (2 hour commute, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month). If you want to find an employee to take that on, you would need to pay them enough to counter those 40+ hours, while also capturing job applications from a wide enough radius to increase your chances.
Simply put: No-one wants that job? Pay more. See what happens.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @03:57PM (6 children)
Two words nobody else mentioned: "Property Prices".
Just 20 years ago, you could (just about) work shifts at a fast food place and pay your rent. That equation no longer works and the proposed alternatives are minimum wage or immigration - both of which exasperate the underlying problem.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:04PM (5 children)
I remember reading stories as a kid about old sailors who carried their hammocks with them and slept wherever they could anchor it, because it was a custom they had acquired aboard ship. I wonder why more people don't do that now, if housing is an issue for them. There are even such things as hammock tents that completely enclose you, in case the weather is inclement. When you're done, roll 'em up and stuff 'em into your backpack.
I know if I was a young guy getting out of college with crushing student debt and no way to afford a regular apartment, it's what I would do. A hammock tent, an e-bike, and a gym membership for the shower, and I'd be set.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Informative) by sjames on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:36PM
You would soon discover a new tradition called the police show up in the middle of the night, destroy your stuff and order you to leave or get arrested.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ledow on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:29PM
No permanent address?
In my country, that means no bank account, no credit card, no car insurance, no required tax forms, probably no ID (or ID on an address that you can't say you live at, which is an offence for some ID - e.g. driving licence, etc.), etc. etc. etc. Hell, getting paid in cash is rarer and rarer unless you work in a direct-service-industry (e.g. taxicabs, etc.).
It's actually harder to get a job and keep a job without a permanent address - employers don't want you up-and-leaving without a trace.
Sure, you could use a friend's address, until they realise your credit history affects them, or you have 10 people all living at that address that aren't really there. It only needs a couple of letters returned "undelivered / not at this address" and your accounts can be closed until you go to the bank and prove you have a permanent address again.
It's just not that easy in a modern world. That's why.
Sure, if you want to work in places that pay cash-in-hand, no tax, don't care about where you live, where you are going to carry all that cash around with you, where you have nowhere to secure to belongings, in a workplace that'll let you bring or leave your live-in crap in a secure place, where you have no need for a phone, a computer, the ability to buy things online, never pay any bills, get questions about what tax you were paying in that interval, etc. etc. etc. then feel free. That's a class of people who already exist, and have more than enough problems getting back into regular work and even renting accommodation, let alone explaining gaps in employment history etc. to future employers.
Cool for trekking through Asia, living off sketching people. Not so cool for any kind of regular or secure life. Certainly not compatible with things like electric-bikes... I'd give it a week before it was nicked and where do you leave it when you're at work?
Of course it can be done. It's called being homeless.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:00PM (2 children)
How long do you think you would own that e-bike in your homeless state? Careful where you try to charge it, anybody who didn't like the look (or smell) of you at first sight would use "electricity theft" as a pretense to hassle you, and if the cops are on their side, you're toast.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday July 20 2018, @01:17AM (1 child)
Lock? German shepherd?
Public charging station? Work?
See, i'm not talking about somebody who's indigent, just nomadic. TFA was talking about fast food restaurants who can't find workers, because the workers can't afford homes in commuting distance. I'm saying that if you eschew rent, you can make your dollar go further.
No mailing address? P.O. box. Can't register to vote with a PO box? Well, what are you really missing anyway? No driver's license? E-bike.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 20 2018, @02:13AM
When I was in college a bike with a Kryptonite lock would last an average of 1.5 nights outside before it vanished - and that was for crappy old pedal bikes. I imagine that e-bikes make even more tempting targets.
If you take a German shepherd with you on your nomadic lifestyle in urban areas, I'd call that borderline cruelty. Cities aren't going to let you let your dog off-leash, especially while you sleep - where, exactly? Our nephew back-packed across the US and managed to find private property owners here and there who would let him pitch tent for a night or two, but it was hit and miss and on the miss nights he was hassled more often than not. One thing he didn't find were many people who would even entertain the idea of letting him stay long term.
Then, you've got the issue of public toileting - places with facilities generally won't have places you can sleep for free within miles.
There's a pretty big "roughing it" community that moves up and down the I-75 corridor, sleeping in places with names like "itchy bottom swamp." Getting enough work to be able to afford food is a challenge, probably made easier with cellphones.
The sad fact of life in our society is that if you choose to be nomadic, it is far easier to make your living as a combo pan-handler / small time thief than it is to get gainful employment.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:07PM
Maybe it is a sign that too many fast food places and other restaurants are open.
If you have walked into a restaurant at noon and see a bunch of empty tables, maybe that place shouldn't exist. Or maybe it exists only for money laundering purposes, in which case, I salute them.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:27PM (3 children)
Employers are willing to do anything to lure people into jobs -- except pay them decently.
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @01:50PM (2 children)
Meanwhile, people bitch that the price of a fast-food meal is now an hour's wages.
See, raising business expenses has consequences on the other end, too.
Also, in states with high mandatory costs (payroll taxes, workmans comp, etc.), wages are only a fraction of the per employee cost. In California, wages are only about 30% of the cost of a legal employee; the other 70%, you pay to the state. (Real numbers. Costco did the math last time CA decided to raise costs to employees, and found they'd be better off to leave CA entirely. I also did the math when I was looking to hire a part-timer, and found my $7000/yr part-time employee, if fully legal, would cost me over $20,000/year. Never mind!)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Friday July 20 2018, @02:30PM
To be honest, the situation may be different in other countries, but fast food in my country is ludicrously cheap.
I know a couple who are young and potless, and they frequent McDonald's and I could never fathom why until I went along with them.
If you buy this burger, in this deal, with this happy meal, and this drink, and then pick up some of these, and swap these bits between the two of them... two fully-grown adults were able to get a meal in about 2 minutes that cost them an absolute pittance. If I remember rightly, they even got a free soft toy most of the time, and they knew the menu and the tricks to make off by heart (e.g. no ice in the drink, two small drinks with two small meals worked out cheaper than a large drink, etc.). They use vouchers and coupons, student discounts, etc. and they have it down-pat because it's one of the cheapest ways for them to eat, and be in the warm in the winter, and meet with friends who all do the same, and they get free wifi, and charge their phone while they're there. And, quite often, whatever was left was taken home as a snack for later.
And you have a mix of salads, and vegs, and high-calorie, high-sugar foods, and it worked out really well. Hell, McDonald's has changed radically since I was a kid, some of them are almost proper restaurants with table service now.
I was surprised, most especially at the ingenuity of how they played the menus to get kids and adults meals to work out to feed them both fully with a pretty balanced meal each, but also just the sheer amount of effort they put into saving even 10p on such a meal. Literally, my "usual" order came to more than they paid for both theirs, and they gave me the stuffed toy for my kid as they "already had them all" just as a side-effect of eating like that. And I'm sure they'd rather have had another 10p off and no toy.
I'd also like to point out - in the UK, eating out is incredibly expensive. The US is vastly cheaper for that, every time I've been. Personally, I can't even remember ever comparing the prices of restaurants for eating out, even when I was literally penniless, because it was also far too expensive. But now... I think I'd have to seriously consider doing what my friends were doing. They're not alone, either. I know people all over the UK who do the same, whether in big-name fast-food restaurants, or just knowing what the local chippy does that's the best value (NEVER order large chips in a UK fish & chip shop... you'll never get through them... if you order it, split it between 2, 3, 4 people).
So I have a really hard time believing that such a place would rather not have enough servers to cater for clients than put 5p / 5c on a price of a popular product and employ someone to fill that gap.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 20 2018, @02:32PM
I suppose people should starve because they cannot earn a living wage.
No wonder we have a generation of people who still live at home with their parents.
People disillusioned that there is no opportunity.
The high cost of low prices.
By not paying more for a Big Mac we are creating massive societal problems that will ultimately cost us far more. Penny wise, pound foolish. But that's corporate thinking to the max. Destroy everything if it means improving this quarter's results.
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(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:00PM (12 children)
Where have the teenagers gone? I guess you wrapped them up in tissue, and flushed them down the toilet. Or, payed Planned Parenthood to D&E them. Or, maybe you abused them to death as toddlers. Or left them to roast in the back seat of your car. Or, neglected them while they explored drugs, and eventually overdosed.
No teenagers. Imagine that. Americans have been so proud of their falling fertility rates for the past thirty years - oh, so very proud. So proud, that today half of America wants to adopt teens from all over Latin America.
Bunch of infertile and impotent old fools, wondering why there are no teens to teen work? This is too much to take!
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:17PM (4 children)
Plenty of sex going on here, but we have this modern invention called birth control (several types). You might want to look it up if it hasn't gotten to your corner of the country yet?
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:35PM (3 children)
This is the age of the incels and mgtows and lickbutts. Procreation is history.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:00PM (2 children)
Incels started out as an internet-woe-is-me-group. Those are a dime a dozen and should not be taken seriously. Third Wave Feminism turned it into a euphemism for homosexual men.
I have met men who struggled mightily with "getting laid" until they realized that what women want is not what Third Wave Feminism says they want. (Third Wave Feminism has a warped perspective that demonstrably does not resonate with heterosexual women--demonstrated in part by the number of white women who voted for Trump, demonstrated in another part by the number of women who want to be housewives instead of career women, und so weiter. Don't shoot the messenger here, folks. But the neoliberals will shoot the messenger and continue on with their heads in the sand.)
I have never once met a bona fide incel. I've met some guys with children who made me scratch my head in disbelief that they aren't incels. Real incels? Nope. It's reactionary, homophobic propaganda from Third Wave Feminism.
Of course, you're also a reactionary, so it makes sense you'd buy into it. TRWTF is that the Democratic Party thinks it can save its relevancy by out-reactionary-ing reactionaries and out-McCarthy-ing the party of McCarthy. (See the "Red to Blue" strategy and the "CIA Democrats.")
Well, I should ask. Would you ever become a feminist or vote D team if they were reactionary enough?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @06:56PM (1 child)
"Straight" incels are real. At least, I see one in the mirror everyday.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @08:33PM
Incel is not a new fangled concept. We used to call them ugly fucks and social retards. We would talk about how they couldn't get screwed at a convention of Jewish insurance salesmen. They couldn't get a French whore to open her legs with a wheel of cheese.
Thing is, women are just as desperate to get laid as men. I've seen some fugly guys with a woman in tow. Makes me realize, there's someone for everyone, no matter if their face looks like a foot. Maybe your standards are too high. Remember, women all look the same in the dark.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:24PM (3 children)
Or? Behold the power of And.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:40PM (2 children)
And your ass. You can't do all of the above to the same child - it's an either/or thing. If you roast them as toddlers, you can't later neglect them while they explore drugs. You'll have to pick one means of abuse per child, you can't have them all. WTF did you go to school, 1920's Leningrad?
(Score: 3, Funny) by Sulla on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:51PM
Thats hardly fair. If he went to school in Leningrad his choice of abuse would be starvation.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @05:05AM
Leningrad? Nono, just another black kid growing up in Mississippi.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:10PM (1 child)
The fertility rate hasn't dropped anywhere near in half. The key words you might have missed were "in the workforce". I think a lot of teens aren't in the workforce because they don't have to be. Too much time in their rooms and on their phones. If you're not going out to movies and such, what do you need pocket money for, so why work for it? I had a girlfriend, took her out on dates, needed gas money for the car, etc. etc. A lot of teens these days aren't even motivated to get a driver's license!
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @01:53PM
Back up a step. If the teen already owns a car and can afford the movies and the cellphone (stuff no teen used to have, hmmm), what does he need with a fast-food job?
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday July 19 2018, @11:30PM
I think you're Catholic. And for a good Catholic, not so many options as the rest of us have. Catholic is great, I love Catholic, it's very special. But it's not me. And it's not a lot of us.
The rest of us, we all want to screw. And so many like children. But, very expensive to raise a child right. The wet nurse, the au pair, the nanny, the tuition, the outfits -- it all adds up. And the globalists sold out our Country. Killed our economy. Killed our middle class. And so many folks said, "let's screw but not make children." Which is an option. For non-Catholic it's an option. Terrible economy, a lot of times it looks like the best option.
But don't worry, we're changing all that. In order to maintain our security as a nation, we understand that we must have economic strength as well. Huge huge tax cut -- thanks to me & our Republicans in Congress. And nobody believes it; if I would have said it, they would have said, "What a horrible thing to say, what an exaggeration." If I would have shot a 75, they’d say, "There’s no way he could do it. There’s no way." They might be right about that, actually. They would have said there’s no way -- 3.4 million new jobs since Election Day. They would have said, "No way." They would have said, and a lot of people would have said.
Unemployment claims are at the lowest point in 44 years. That means people are working again. African American unemployment is in the lowest it’s ever been. The history of our country -- it’s at the lowest in the history of our country. Remember I used to say "What do you have to lose? Vote for Trump. What do you have to lose?" Hispanic American unemployment, the lowest in the history of our country. By the way, women -- I was saying, two weeks ago, "21 years." Now, I’m saying, "66 years." I think, within two weeks, I’ll be saying "the lowest in history." The lowest unemployment in 66 years.
Last year, in West Virginia, per capita personal income grew more than 40 percent faster than the national average. Coal exports -- you remember I said "Coal. Coal. Clean coal." Right? We always say "clean coal." And what they can do now is incredible with coal. Clean coal exports skyrocketed by more than 60 percent nationwide, and I’m so proud of that.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:21PM (5 children)
Nomsg
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:05PM
Less attitude.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:14PM
Truth.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:23PM (2 children)
If Immigrants were taking up the fast food jobs, then it would be a shortage of jobs, not a shortage of workers.
Maybe teenagers have enough self respect not to take a fast food job at the wages and working conditions that fast-food places have long relied in being able to impose. Maybe eve immigrants know better than to take these jobs. Hence a shortage of workers.
Immigrants are only hired to do jobs that no American would ever do. (That is why Trump's wives are all immigrants.)
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(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:24PM (1 child)
Immigrants are only hired to do jobs that no American would ever do.
I know at *least* 5 people who would love to have those jobs. They can not get them. An illegal you can threaten with ICE for not showing up (and they do) A teenager? What are you going to do? Call his mom? You can pay an illegal under the table HALF min wage and they are cool with it. Why? Taxes. Some pay it, most dont. Try that on a teenager.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @01:57PM
It's not the wages that are the problem. I knew people in CA who paid their illegals more than the going rate, because that cash wage under the table was still cheaper than what they'd have been required to pay to the state for a fully-legal employee, and of course the illegals couldn't bitch about not getting workmans comp. (Wages being only about 30% of the cost.) Absent those state-imposed costs, wages went up to keep the good ones. Gee, I sense a trend.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @04:54PM (2 children)
What do you think is IN the burgers?
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Thursday July 19 2018, @07:02PM
Would you like fries with your Soylent Green?
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:04PM
Duh... I heard that!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday July 19 2018, @05:14PM
Rather than "essential component" how about "essential ingredient"?
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(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 19 2018, @10:19PM
relabel this as where has my 'cheap' labor gone.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2018/05/16/the-great-bakken-oil-rebound/ [forbes.com]
If there was an actual shortage wages would rise to draw people in. When that oil boom went bust guess what happened to the mc'ds jobs?
I can see many here have not been 'in the mix' for a bit with these jobs. They ask for references and 'we will call you' attitude, some even do credit checks.
Unemployment is currently low. But participation is also low. Meaning wages will have to go up if they want to 'fill these jobs'. That you don't says everything you need to know, they do not have to. So you see articles like this to get people spun up that something has changed. That economics do not exist. "This time is different" like every other time. Server tipped wages are still 2.13 an hour. Have been since 1992 min was about 3.50. These companies are addicted to basically 'cheap/free' labor. Want to know who wins out of this? The landlords and owners of the brands. They can charge higher rates. It is all connected.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday July 20 2018, @12:45AM
The biggest problem with the race to the bottom so preferred by our local libertarians here is that it's self-defeating.
If a big chunk of the population is not being paid a living wage, then they can't go out and spend money on small luxuries like fast food. By controlling their costs, these companies are damaging their potential revenue.
I remember as a teenager when going out for fast food and a movie cost me about 1.5 hours of my minimum wage supermarket job. Unsurprisingly, I did a lot of that (as well as purchasing music, video games etc), boosting the revenue of these places and helping them stay in business.
(Score: 4, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 20 2018, @12:46AM (4 children)
It's not an either/or thing. There are more jobs teenagers used to take and less of them willing to work.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 20 2018, @05:09AM (1 child)
Yet another awful uninformed opinion by our resident troll! Try RTFA for once in your uneducated life.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 20 2018, @10:12AM
You must be new here.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 20 2018, @02:01PM (1 child)
Bingo. Something you and I are old enough to notice, but apparently most of our other respondents are not.
Also, as the AC says, this is more about getting voters spun up for the midterms than it is about realworld economics.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 20 2018, @02:15PM
It's something that mystifies me. I'm gen-x, we're supposed to be the apathetic slackers but a big damned chunk of us worked at least half of our teenage years. Kids today don't seem to want to get a job until after college for the most part.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday July 20 2018, @01:04AM
Good job, very good.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.