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posted by chromas on Monday July 30 2018, @06:02PM   Printer-friendly
from the security-theater-vs-the-fourth dept.

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1984

Federal air marshals have begun following ordinary US citizens not suspected of a crime or on any terrorist watch list and collecting extensive information about their movements and behavior under a new domestic surveillance program that is drawing criticism from within the agency.

The previously undisclosed program, called "Quiet Skies," specifically targets travelers who "are not under investigation by any agency and are not in the Terrorist Screening Data Base," according to a Transportation Security Administration bulletin in March.

The internal bulletin describes the program's goal as thwarting threats to commercial aircraft "posed by unknown or partially known terrorists," and gives the agency broad discretion over which air travelers to focus on and how closely they are tracked.

[...] But some air marshals, in interviews and internal communications shared with the Globe, say the program has them tasked with shadowing travelers who appear to pose no real threat — a businesswoman who happened to have traveled through a Mideast hot spot, in one case; a Southwest Airlines flight attendant, in another; a fellow federal law enforcement officer, in a third.

Since this initiative launched in March, dozens of air marshals have raised concerns about the Quiet Skies program with senior officials and colleagues, sought legal counsel, and expressed misgivings about the surveillance program, according to interviews and documents reviewed by the Globe.

"What we are doing [in Quiet Skies] is troubling and raising some serious questions as to the validity and legality of what we are doing and how we are doing it," one air marshal wrote in a text message to colleagues.

Source: http://apps.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/graphics/2018/07/tsa-quiet-skies/?p1=HP_SpecialTSA [Ed Note: Not available for all browser modes]

Also at CNN, Fortune, The Verge, and The Hill.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday July 30 2018, @06:18PM (50 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Monday July 30 2018, @06:18PM (#714858)

    The way these kinds of agencies think, there are 3 kinds of people in the world:
    1. Those who work for the government, which means they've sworn allegiance to the national security state.
    2. Known bad guys (before 1990 or so: communists. After 1990 or so: terrorists).
    3. Bad guys who they haven't identified yet (a.k.a. everybody else).

    That's why when they run out of known bad guys, they start fishing around for dirt on everyone else.

    --
    "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 30 2018, @06:50PM (48 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @06:50PM (#714874) Journal

      And, everyone needs to understand something. Just because Thexalon is paranoid is not indication that what he says is untrue.

      Homeland Security and TSA were the two single worst mistakes ever made by the US government. What little soul the government had at that point in time was cheerfully given to the devil. Today, government is nothing more than a soulless parasite. The parasite remains relatively benign, but we can count on it turning malignant soon enough.

      --
      We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday July 30 2018, @07:11PM (35 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday July 30 2018, @07:11PM (#714885) Journal

        The Federal Reserve was a much worse mistake. Or maybe the Monroe Doctrine. Or the Japanese internment camps. Or allowing slavery ever. Or "welfare reform." Or the Iraq War(s). A lot worse has been done, is my point.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by fyngyrz on Monday July 30 2018, @07:31PM (1 child)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Monday July 30 2018, @07:31PM (#714897) Journal

          "Worst" is like a pie. Every slice can be "the worst." All of those things were (are) horrific. But so is what we're going through now. Further, some very bad things are simply precursors, or potential precursors, for other even worse bad things yet to come down the pike.

          Falling off a cliff is bad. But the step up to the edge can be just as objectively bad, because without it, there would be no fall.

          POV is critical here, both to understand the outlook of the people affected, and to avoid pooh-poohing things that are objectively really bad just because they're not focused, or apparently focused, on us in particular at this point in time, or not quite yet off the cliff.

          • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by choose another one on Monday July 30 2018, @09:07PM

            by choose another one (515) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:07PM (#714937)

            > Falling off a cliff is bad. But the step up to the edge can be just as objectively bad, because without it, there would be no fall.

            Most of falling off a cliff is fine, it's only the bit just before impact that is objectively bad (added possibility of more than one impact as you fall down a cliff).

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 30 2018, @07:32PM (21 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @07:32PM (#714898) Journal

          Points for the Federal Reserve. You may well be right with that one.

          Monroe Doctrine? Put it into perspective, and you'll see that the absence of the Monroe Doctrine would likely have led to the world's then super powers interfering with every single power and state in the Americas.

          Japanese internment? Hmmmm - how bad was that really? How many US citizens died because of that policy? Hell, that's not even a blip on the grand scale of things. Sorry, my give-a-damn isn't even triggered.

          "Welfare reform" is a "good thing", IMO. If you're unable to work, then government should maybe ensure that you are taken care of. If you're UNWILLING to work, then you can just fucking starve to death. The welfare system is broken, and it seriously needs meaningful reform. That doesn't mean that I agree with Clinton's approach, or the ideas offered by either party, during any election cycle.

          Iraq wars? Sorry - they just don't compare. I argued long and loud against the invasion of Iraq, but that invasion pales in comparison with the idea that Americans have surrendered their freedom and their rights in exchange for some imagined "security".

          I'll just point to a Ben Franklin quote - Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

          The TSA has taken Franklin's quote to heart. If you willingly enter within their jurisdiction, they know that you have willingly forfeited your liberty, as well as your safety.

          --
          We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 30 2018, @07:33PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @07:33PM (#714900) Journal

            And, I carefully avoided the issue of slavery in my response. That is far too complicated to address in a three to five minute post.

            --
            We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:29PM (14 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:29PM (#714923)

            Oh wow, to imagine that you are an example of a moderate older republican.

            but that invasion pales in comparison with the idea that Americans have surrendered their freedom and their rights in exchange for some imagined "security"

            I think the thousands of dead innocent Iraqis might object to your 1st world problems.

            Internment doesn't even make a blip on your "grand scale"? You're worried about freedom yet one of the most recent and rather massive jailing and abuse of US citizens doesn't even register to you? Wow.

            As for welfare, the topic is apparently too complex for your basic world view. The number of true leeches / scammers in welfare programs is basically insignificant and it turns out that all the rules put in by people like you to make sure no one gets a "handout" actually harm the system and create even more problems for society. Like single moms who can't get a part time job because they'll lose their benefits and thus have less money / resources to care for their children. It is backwards and actually discourages the type of personal responsibility your dumb rules are trying to fix. The underlying problem is that your view is "fuck you got mine" so the rules are actually more about trying to discourage welfare use. As so often happens republican strategy is self defeating and worse overall.

            Socialize healthcare already!!

            • (Score: 4, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 30 2018, @08:56PM (13 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @08:56PM (#714931) Journal

              Why don't you grab a handful of republicans, and stuff them up your arse?

              I've been registered to vote for about 44 years now, and NOT ONCE have I been registered as a member of either party in the US. Which part of "I despise the two party system" do you fail to understand? Only a closed minded, polarized mind which has been molded by that two-party system can see me as a republican. You can run along, and tell your political masters that the brainwashing has been effective on you.

              --
              We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
              • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:29PM (12 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:29PM (#714950)

                I don't bother memorizing every detail of each user here. I'M SORRY YOUR FEELZ GOT SO BUTTHURT!

                I see you just got sent into a triggered mess instead of addressing my incredibly valid points regarding your dismissive treatment of real historic problems the US has had. I know you value freedom, but it is amazing how you are so blind to your own words. I point out the problems and you go into full meltdown.

                QED the real snowflakes are you old farts who can't stand criticism.

                • (Score: 3, Troll) by RS3 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:23AM (6 children)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:23AM (#715012)

                  Your reaction seems pretty "BUTTHURT".

                  Personal attacks and insults are what's dividing the US and the rest of the world.

                  How about someday we all grow up, respect each others opinions whether we agree or not, and try to intelligently interact, collaborate, and come up with some common ground solutions.

                  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:03AM (5 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:03AM (#715027)

                    Haha, I only used that phrasing since Runaway kicked it off with shoving republican up my ass. I'm done with trying to be 100% civil, sometimes the proper reaction is to call people out on their shit and not baby them in the hopes they'll see your point. It almost never works.

                    Hmm, in the recent past I just found this little bit of yours.

                    I got hit with it a few times when I was not trolling, so I rarely voice any kind of social or political views or opinions. So far the real-life voting places have not labeled me "troll".

                    So apparently you sometimes share your opinions and people find them offensive / trollish. Pot meet kettle. We'll see how long your politeness hangs on in the shitstorm of trolling, stupidity and hypocrisy that occurs around here.

                    • (Score: 2, Troll) by RS3 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:29AM (4 children)

                      by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:29AM (#715033)

                      I agree, runaway did write that. I kind of skimmed, so I didn't get all of the conversation, and I figured he felt he needed to write that, kind of like you feel you need to.

                      I strongly disagree with you saying that the proper reaction is to call people out. You may think you're winning some (ridiculous) battle over one person, but to the rest of us who read here hoping to learn something, it's just offensive. It's kind of like picking through rotting food in a dumpster hoping to find something edible. Not really worth the effort.

                      I came here hoping for more intelligent discourse. I see that people like you aren't willing to rise above the slashdot crowd's culture. Maybe I need to start my own site.

                      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @03:56AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @03:56AM (#715057)

                        I don't think you quite understand what is going on in the world right now.

                        You want civil discussions go to Hacker News, that is the only site I've come across where politeness is somewhat enforced and people truly strive to remain calm and civil.

                        Runaway quite often spews insulting crap so I don't feel any obligation to coddle his feelings here. He dismissed a ton of horrific crap brought up as examples of things worse than "Homeland Security and TSA were the two single worst mistakes ever made by the US government."

                        I can only assume you just haven't had enough exposure, but after years hanging around this site I feel no pangs of conscience for being a bit rough on Runaway. Save your criticism for a post more deserving of it, and while you're at it maybe reflect on how your insults are no better just because you're a superior sounding snob.

                        Don't let the back button break your finger on your way elsewhere.

                      • (Score: 2) by unauthorized on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:40AM (2 children)

                        by unauthorized (3776) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:40AM (#715125)

                        Maybe I need to start my own site.

                        Fuck Beta 2.0 here we come!

                        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:47PM (1 child)

                          by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:47PM (#715182)

                          And it's nothing against this amazing site and its owners / admins. I'm here and it's awesome. It's that I have a slightly different view and I think this site would be (much) better if we could collectively vote certain trolls off. Not necessarily the person (as /. had to), but the comments that are truly troll turds. And I know they do that a tiny bit. It's all about where do you draw that line.

                          So I'm very good at devil's advocacy, and I also see and categorically agree with TMB's philosophy of letting anyone post anything. I'm a huge free-speech advocate. But this is more like a meeting room and someone is disrupting the meeting to the point that it's wasting everyone's time and we're forgetting what we came here for.

                          But I'm also not so sure about the voting system. I don't think it's fair to downmod someone just because you don't agree with their view. That's the beginning of fascism.

                          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @06:48PM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @06:48PM (#715333)

                            So we need 100% freedom of speech, except for that annoying guy. He needs to go.

                            Lawl, don't make absolute statements if you are going to waffle on them within 3 seconds.

                • (Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:28AM (4 children)

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:28AM (#715032) Journal

                  You don't even bother to read responses to your posts, let alone keep track of the people you are responding to.

                  The welfare system is broken, and it seriously needs meaningful reform.

                  That, from my own post, does not contradict anything you have said about the welfare system. Literacy - check your local community college for help with that concept. I am very much aware that the welfare recipient who tries to better him/herself is penalized for taking a job, unless that job pays far more than welfare provides. The system has been built to encourage people to rely on welfare. So, again,

                  The welfare system is broken, and it seriously needs meaningful reform.

                  BTW - where do you think the bodies come from that fuel the prison for profit scheme that the US is so famous for? The bodies don't come from families that instill honesty and work ethics into their children. The majority of those bodies come from single mom families, who have been instilled with the proper semi-subservient attitude necessary to push social workers into releasing money. Single mom families most certainly teach reliance on government, as opposed to self reliance. Mom can't be Mom and Dad at the same time, very effectively. Worse, if Dad is in the pen, his only lessons for his children consist of failed methods of "beat the Man".

                  --
                  We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
                  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:07AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:07AM (#715059)

                    "have been instilled with the proper semi-subservient attitude necessary to push social workers into releasing money" uhhh, now you're drifting off the deep end. Nothing like a little criticism to get you to reveal your true feelings.

                    Welfare was not designed the way it is, it was morphed from something helpful into something twisted because conservatives had to make sure no undeserving people abused the system. I'm glad you're not a full blown RWNJ but I really wish you'd realize that you have quite a bit of culture war propaganda stuffed away in that melon.

                    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:26PM

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:26PM (#715189) Journal

                      May I suggest that you revisit the administration of William Jefferson Clinton, aka, Slick Willy, to see what he did with welfare? See, this is part of our problem in America - your side blames all the evils of government on the other side, while the other side blames all the evils on your side.

                      Can we all just grow up, and examine the evidence? NEITHER SIDE KNOWS WHAT IN HELL IT IS DOING!!

                      Ditto with immigration reform, Medicaid, social security - the list goes on and on.

                      You want to whine and moan about the Republicans? That's cool - but you had better be looking critically at the Dems as well. Otherwise, you're just another partisan horn blower.

                      --
                      We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
                  • (Score: 2) by unauthorized on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:01AM (1 child)

                    by unauthorized (3776) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:01AM (#715131)

                    The system has been built to encourage people to rely on welfare.

                    Why do you assume it's not the economy who is doing it and the welfare isn't compensating for a problem that the free and independent market has created because it creates an efficient pseudo-slavery model like it always does? Ah right, religion. The free market is our lord and savior and Adam Smith is his one and true son that came to save us from the red devil.

                    The majority of those bodies come from single mom families, who have been instilled with the proper semi-subservient attitude necessary to push social workers into releasing money.

                    Welfare applies to everyone, and only some population groups exhibit the behavior you describe. Therefore it is not welfare that is the root cause, if it did then you would see a more uniform distribution among populations who receive welfare. It might compound an existing maladaptive social behavior among some social groups, but the problem is already there to begin with.

                    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:39PM

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:39PM (#715197) Journal

                      It might compound an existing maladaptive social behavior among some social groups,

                      I'm glad that you can see the possibility of negative feedback loops in all of this. And, I'll maintain that single parent homes are one of the contributory feedbacks in the loop. No, of course not all kids from single parent homes are bad. And, of course not all kids from two parent homes are good. But - I wonder - has anyone ever done a survey to see how many of each are incarcerated? Hmmmmm - - -

                      https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pji02.pdf [bjs.gov]

                      56% of jail inmates said they grew
                      up in a single-parent household or
                      with a guardian. About 1 in 9 had
                      lived in a foster home or institution.

                      31% of jail inmates grew up with a
                      parent or guardian who abused
                      alcohol or drugs; 46% had a family
                      member who had been
                      incarcerated.

                      Over half of women in jail said they
                      had been physically or sexually
                      abused in the past, compared to
                      over a tenth of men.

                      Please click the link, there are more interesting bits of information on that page, like racial and ethnic breakdowns of prison population. But those are the highlights you can't deny - single parent homes, and abusive parents really put the hurt on people who may or may not be prone to break the law anyway. Bottom line? Kids need a mom, and kids need a dad. The prison population pretty much proves that. Someone might make a case that if a kid can't have both a mother and a father, then maybe they need Mom more than they need Dad - but I've seen no evidence of that, whether empiric evidence, or psychobabble evidence.

                      --
                      We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @12:28AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @12:28AM (#714998)

            Japanese internment? Hmmmm - how bad was that really? How many US citizens died because of that policy?

            Yes, how bad was it to lock people up in camps for being Japanese? Sure, it may have been a complete and total violation of the Constitution and basic human rights, but at least not many people died!

            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:52AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @02:52AM (#715038)

              62% [wikipedia.org] of the detainees were Americans.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:40AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:40AM (#715126)

              There were clear examples (from Hawaii) of Japanese-Americans acting in favour of Japan. Sequestering that group in a huge fucking war like WW2 was obviously needed and not doing it would have been bloody stupid. Stealing their property while they were detained was wrong and should have been compensated.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @03:41PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @03:41PM (#715227)

                There were clear examples (from Hawaii) of Japanese-Americans acting in favour of Japan.

                And you're such a reprehensible piece of garbage that you think that this somehow justifies or gives the government the power to suspend due process rights and place everyone who happens to be Japanese-American in fucking camps? The government had no Constitutional authority to do this. None! The Constitution is the highest law of the land, and you are literally saying it was okay for the government to violate it on a massive scale.

                You don't believe in freedom. Move to North Korea, you authoritarian coward.

              • (Score: 2) by darnkitten on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:48PM

                by darnkitten (1912) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:48PM (#715444)

                My Grandma was 2nd-generation German-American: her parents neither spoke nor read English, and lived in a German "colony" in Texas. She and her siblings spoke German amongst each other and at home. Grandma worked as a Harvey Girl, on the railroad, and, railroads being vital for national defense, was investigated by the FBI (understandably), because she wrote her parents in German, and was reported for doing so. Neither she nor any German family she knew were rounded up and placed in internment camps.

                There were clear examples (from Hawaii) of Japanese-Americans acting in favour of Japan.

                And yet, despite comprising 40% of the population in Hawaii (over 150,000), only a few thousand (between 1,200 and 1,800) were detained, as opposed to the mainland, where not a single Japanese national or Japanese-American was found guilty of sabotage, the government rounded up around 120,000 out of a population estimated between 125,000 and 180,000 (Koreans and Taiwanese were often considered ethnically Japanese, and anyone with as little as 1/16th Japanese (Yonsei, having at least one Japanese great-great grandparent), or as one commander put it, having "one drop of Japanese blood..."), was considered Japanese for the purposes of the Executive Order.

                The US also had the German-American Bund, the FLNA, Father Coughlin, the Silver Shirts, etc., etc. We had German and Italian saboteurs. We had German- and Italian-Americans in enemy uniforms, fighting on the side of the enemy. Again--German and Italian internment camps? mass round-ups of families? uncompensated confiscations? Not so much. 11,000 Germans (including German Jews) out of 12 million with at least one native-German parent, and 3,000 Italians out of over 5 million, including 600,000 "enemy aliens".

        • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Monday July 30 2018, @07:42PM

          by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Monday July 30 2018, @07:42PM (#714902) Journal

          The question is whether or not we should have been in Iraq in the first place. You have a lot of questions and a lot of people questioning the whole concept of going in in the first place. You see more and more doves, if you call them doves. It wasn’t a mistake to fight terrorism and fight it hard, and I guess maybe if I had to do it, I would have fought terrorism but not necessarily Iraq. But you know, they fulfilled the pledge of finding Saddam Hussein. Can we call that mission accomplished? Why not!

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday July 30 2018, @09:24PM (6 children)

          by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:24PM (#714947) Journal

          I know I'm going to regret asking, but how was the Federal Reserve a worse mistake? Have you seen the history of banking in the U.S. prior to it? Yes, there are economists who have argued that the Fed's policies in the 1920s significantly contributed to the great depression. But aside from that crisis (and I'm not downplaying it), the Fed led to a century of financial stability much unlike the U.S. had seen prior (and arguably contributed to the U.S. global economic dominance).

          Is it perfect? Far from it. And there are arguments that we should have moved to something better by now. But compared to the serious monetary panics (and unless you lived through the Great Depression, it's hard to understand what I mean by "panics") happening every few years that was the norm before, the era since the Fed was formed has been a "walk in the park" for financial markets.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:12AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:12AM (#715082)

            A 1999 article [mises.org] warned:

            What is directly and immediately responsible for the current bull market is a sustained and rapid increase in the demand for stocks. This increase in demand in turn has been the result of the repeated pouring into the market of large sums of new and additional money, created by the banking system under the umbrella of the Federal Reserve System and related government intervention.

            What this means is that stock prices have been rising on the foundation of nothing more than an increase in the quantity of money.

            A 2004 article [newyorker.com] warned:

            [...] the consequences of the Fed's cheap-money policy have largely escaped attention. Tempted by unprecedentedly low interest rates, Americans have taken on unprecedented levels of debt, particularly in the realestate market, which has replaced the stock market as the favored vehicle for get-rich-quick schemes. For many families, the soaring value of their home offset the slump in their stock portfolio, but, with one-bedroom apartments in Manhattan selling for more than half a million dollars, and with California banks being forced to introduce forty-year mortgages so that their customers can afford to buy a house, even some of Greenspan's colleagues are concerned that one bubble has given way to another.

            What this means is that stock prices have been rising on the foundation of nothing more than an increase in the quantity of money.

            Eventually [nytimes.com] the warnings were heard.

            • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday July 31 2018, @12:44PM (1 child)

              by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @12:44PM (#715153) Journal

              I explicitly said the Fed isn't the ideal situation, and it makes mistakes... sometimes huge ones. (Though blaming the housing crisis entirely on Fed policy is absolutely not fair, though it was a contributor.)

              The question about whether the Fed was a "mistake" is whether we'd have more or less insane monetary panics without it. Given the history of U.S. financial markets before the Fed, I undoubtedly think we would have.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 05 2018, @10:58AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 05 2018, @10:58AM (#717485)

                Who blamed the 2008 crisis entirely on the Federal Reserve? You seem to be attempting a strawman argument.

                The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913, when paper money had only been in use in the United States for about 51 years. You write of unspecified "monetary panics." Don't you think it natural that people would be uneasy about the new currency? Since 1913, there have been other changes in the world of finance. In my opinion, the present-day United States resembles its pre-1913 incarnation less than it resembles the developed countries of the present day. After 104 years, none of them have chosen to replicate the Federal Reserve in their own banking systems.

                The Federal Reserve is charged with looking after the interests of both private banks and the public. Those interests diverge [businessinsider.com].

          • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:21AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:21AM (#715085)

            A 1999 article [mises.org] warned:

            What is directly and immediately responsible for the current bull market is a sustained and rapid increase in the demand for stocks. This increase in demand in turn has been the result of the repeated pouring into the market of large sums of new and additional money, created by the banking system under the umbrella of the Federal Reserve System and related government intervention.

            What this means is that stock prices have been rising on the foundation of nothing more than an increase in the quantity of money.

            A 2004 article [newyorker.com] warned:

            [...] the consequences of the Fed's cheap-money policy have largely escaped attention. Tempted by unprecedentedly low interest rates, Americans have taken on unprecedented levels of debt, particularly in the realestate market, which has replaced the stock market as the favored vehicle for get-rich-quick schemes. For many families, the soaring value of their home offset the slump in their stock portfolio, but, with one-bedroom apartments in Manhattan selling for more than half a million dollars, and with California banks being forced to introduce forty-year mortgages so that their customers can afford to buy a house, even some of Greenspan's colleagues are concerned that one bubble has given way to another.

            Eventually [nytimes.com] the warnings were heard.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:35AM

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:35AM (#715087) Homepage
            Probably gets most relevant at episode 3 or 4, IIRC:
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE88E9ICdiphYjJkeeLL2O09eJoC8r7Dc

            Of course, MM is a gold bug, but at least that means he has skin in the game.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:47PM

            by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @05:47PM (#715310)

            My understanding is that some people are under the delusion that stuffing currency in their mattress is supposed to be a sound investment strategy. And for the real goldbugs, the US dollar has been about to collapse for 30+ years, which puts them in the same category as those who are disappointed the world didn't end last Friday.

            --
            "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:45AM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:45AM (#715075) Journal

          Or maybe the Monroe Doctrine.

          This is not like the others. It's actually an early piece of anti-colonialism policy - and more effective over the years than most at that. But maybe it was a mistake to oppose the machinations of the European powers in the Americas?

          And I would consider the creation of the TSA to be on par or worse than most of the mistakes you mention (certainly worse than the creation of the Federal Reserve and welfare reform). Don't forget that a key part of its creation was the power grab that took over security for every major airport in the US and that it institutionalizes security theater. That alone puts it on par with Japanese internment camps IMHO.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:54AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:54AM (#715128)

            I would argue that the the creation of the Federal Reserve, where the USA handed control of its money to a Jewish Cabal, was a pretty big mistake.
            Do you understand how the money supply works now? Every dollar that is created is simply owned by the jewish bankers behind the Fed. When that dollar goes into circulation, it is owed to them, plus interest. It is now provably impossible for the USA to pay off that debt.
            I cannot understand why anyone would think it is fair, reasonable, or sane, to do this. Your government, who should be responsible for your currency, instead said "Every coin that is minted, every dollar that is printed, give it to the Jews, and borrow it back. We will be in their debt forever".

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 31 2018, @06:18PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @06:18PM (#715320) Journal

              I would argue that the the creation of the Federal Reserve, where the USA handed control of its money to a Jewish Cabal, was a pretty big mistake.

              So having your family jewels groped by the airport representative of the Jewish Cabal is better? At least you can hoard gold and bitcoins. Please continue to dig that hole deeper.

              Do you understand how the money supply works now? Every dollar that is created is simply owned by the jewish bankers behind the Fed. When that dollar goes into circulation, it is owed to them, plus interest. It is now provably impossible for the USA to pay off that debt.

              Such drama! I suggest as an educational exercise actually trying to prove your assertion and seeing where it fails.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday July 30 2018, @07:45PM (10 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Monday July 30 2018, @07:45PM (#714905)

        Even just the phrase "Homeland Security" came off as more than a bit totalitarian. It also raises the question: If "Homeland Security" is the department protecting the US territory and its people, what is the Department of Defense actually defending?

        --
        "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
        • (Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:17PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:17PM (#714917)

          If "Homeland Security" is the department protecting the US territory and its people, what is the Department of Defense actually defending?

          The Department of Defense is defending the Department of Homeland Security.

          • (Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 30 2018, @08:58PM (2 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @08:58PM (#714933) Journal

            Sorry, but you've been mislead. There are actually people who are talking about getting rid of the DoD, or making DoD subordinate to Homeland. Can you tell me how that compares to Nazi Germany, or to Soviet Russia?

            --
            We're gonna be able to vacation in Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and maybe Minnesota soon. Incredible times.
            • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Monday July 30 2018, @09:18PM

              by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:18PM (#714944) Journal

              They didn't say Homeland. Germany, they said Fatherland. And Russia, they said Motherland. Nice way to honor the fathers & mothers!!

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:49AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:49AM (#715076) Journal

              There are actually people who are talking about

              And there are people talking about how the Earth is flat, the Moon is fake, and the Freemasons, working with Satan, are keeping that all secret through an intricate web of fear and lies. Maybe we shouldn't treat stuff seriously just because someone talks about it?

        • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:19PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:19PM (#714918)

          Profits!

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Monday July 30 2018, @09:00PM

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:00PM (#714934)

          "Homeland Security" brings to mind stern men in sharp uniforms boarding buses and trains and saying "Papers please" to the passengers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @10:20PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @10:20PM (#714966)

          For many years I've thought that DoD was misnamed, should be the Department of Offense.

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday July 30 2018, @11:39PM

            by Thexalon (636) on Monday July 30 2018, @11:39PM (#714981)

            Well, it used to be the War Department, until the United States decided they weren't going to fight wars anymore and instead would engage the enemy in authorized military enforcement actions. Which I'm sure gave great comfort to the Koreans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Grenadans, and everyone else that has ended up in American crosshairs at some point or another.

            It's transparently a piece of propaganda.

            --
            "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:28AM (1 child)

          by Arik (4543) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:28AM (#715013) Journal
          "If "Homeland Security" is the department protecting the US territory and its people, what is the Department of Defense actually defending?"

          Overseas bases. Around 800 of them, *not* including the ones that float around, they call those 'aircraft carriers.'
          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:58AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @10:58AM (#715130)

            You know that if you ever get in a serious conflict those floating bases won't be floating for long. It is ridiculously easy to send them to see Davy Jones.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday July 30 2018, @09:12PM

        by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:12PM (#714940) Journal

        But but but.... We were promised that other governments had a national-level agency that coordinated their internal security apparats. We were just doing what the rest of the world does.*
        Seriously, I remember hearing that argument from pundits on CNN before its creation. And paragraph 1 in Wikipedia on DHS cites the very notion that many nations have an Interior Ministry (conveniently ignoring that we already had a Department of the Interior).
        Now TSA.... that you're not going to get rid of, sorry. The desire to have all airport security under one coordinating Federal agency was too strong post 9/11. Even if you razed it to the ground a replacement Federal agency would grow up from its ashes and likely be worse.

        *Without thinking that maybe there were valid reasons that the United States was intentionally different and chose to not have all that power concentrated in one agency.

        --
        This sig for rent.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by insanumingenium on Monday July 30 2018, @06:57PM

      by insanumingenium (4824) on Monday July 30 2018, @06:57PM (#714876) Journal

      TFS mentioned tailing a fellow federal law enforcement officer, looks like it is down to just #2 and #3.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @07:24PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @07:24PM (#714892)

    Fucking SWEET! Thank god some of the professionals are recognizing the bullshit for what it is. What a waste of tax payer money and a violation of the freedoms we supposedly cherish.

    Like patents with "but on a computer!" security and freedom are "but on a plane!"

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:06PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @08:06PM (#714913)

      Or near POTUS giving a speech, or in public without a permit, or if ordered by a secret court, or or or. Too many exceptions where our freedoms cease to exist.

      • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday July 30 2018, @09:15PM (1 child)

        by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday July 30 2018, @09:15PM (#714943) Journal

        That's because your freedoms are NOT unlimited. Never have been. Freedoms and rights are always paired against obligations and responsibilities, and far too many people feel they should have all of the former and none of the latter.

        --
        This sig for rent.
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:33PM (#714951)

          Yes I comprehend the reasons, but as should be evident by now most of those "reasons" are bullshit. Free speech zones around political speeches? The whole POINT of protesting is to be visible and seen, when a politician can restrict the protesters freedom of speech and bodily location, well I dunno but that seems quite authoritarian to me. TSA? Gimme a break, you should realize what a joke that is.

          Ditto for the vast number of these exceptions, and your little quip about people wanting freedom without responsibility is just a straw man bullshit argument. Responsibility is enforced by law, did you abuse your freedoms to violate someone else's? Jail for you! The US has gone down the police state route, do you not understand this yet?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:05PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @09:05PM (#714936)

    Formerly Secret

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Monday July 30 2018, @09:28PM (1 child)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 30 2018, @09:28PM (#714949) Journal

    Secret Laws
    Secret Interpretations of Laws
    Secret Courts
    Secret Warrants
    Secret Court Orders
    Secret Arrests
    Secret Trials
    Secret Evidence (not made available to the defense)
    Secret Convictions
    Secret Prisons
    Secret "enhanced interrogation" programs

    Gee, it sounds like we've become everything we were fighting against in the previous century.

    But it keeps the money flowing.

    Next after the military industrial complex is the for-profit prisons. Vacant cells mean lower revenue and thus degrade profits, executive bonuses and shareholder value. Our education system needs to be geared to produce just enough inmates to occupy the for profit prisons, and enough productive workers to pay for both the for profit prisons and military industrial complex.

    --
    Infinity is clearly an even number since the next higher number is odd.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:42AM

      by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @01:42AM (#715019) Journal

      Good list, though I think you forgot "Secret Assassinations/Executions without Trial," which is really the ultimate denial of any "right to life" let alone liberty or happiness or quaint ideas like due process.

      (And yes, I know most of these are from the Declaration of Independence, which doesn't carry the force of law. But it's a denial of the fundamental reasons for the founding of the U.S. to allow an executive to order the secret execution of a citizen without trial...)

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:15AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 31 2018, @04:15AM (#715063)

    So. Now there is an official government program we can point to when we snarkily say, "if you're not on any watchlists, that's suspicious".

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 02 2018, @12:22AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 02 2018, @12:22AM (#715986)

    If all muslims were removed to their own country with no allowance to enter non muslim countries would this problem still exist like it does today

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