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posted by janrinok on Wednesday August 22 2018, @04:43PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the she-done-good dept.

The Hugo awards, being the favorite they are with SN readers, are out again!

As posted at The Vox.

The first-ever threepeat of the Hugo Awards — the prestigious, long-running fantasy awards handed out annually at WorldCon — just issued a giant rejection of right-wing gatekeeping in the struggle to diversify the world of science fiction and fantasy writing.

N.K. Jemisin's groundbreaking fantasy series the Broken Earth trilogy has won critical acclaim, been optioned for development as a TV series, and received numerous accolades from the sci-fi and fantasy community. And on August 19, it achieved yet another milestone when Jemisin became the first author in the Hugos' 65-year history to win back-to-back awards for every book in a trilogy. Jemisin won the award for Best Novel three years in a row, starting with The Fifth Season in 2016, The Obelisk Gate in 2017, and now The Stone Sky in 2018.

Meanwhile, The Verge reports:

The 2018 Hugo Awards were held last night at the World Science Fiction Convention in San Jose, California. The Hugo award, voted on by members of the fan community, is considered the highest honor for science fiction and fantasy literature.

Like the previous couple of years, women almost completely swept the awards. N.K. Jemisin took home the top honor for The Stone Sky, the third installment of her Broken Earth trilogy. Other winners include Martha Wells for her first Murderbot novella All Systems Red, Suzanne Palmer for her novelette “The Secret Life of Bots,” and Rebecca Roanhorse for her short story “Welcome to your Authentic Indian Experience™.” (Roanhorse also took home the John W. Campbell Jr. Award for Best New Writer.)

Jemisin’s win gives her a history-making hat trick: she’s won the top award for each Broken Earth installment, the first two having been for The Fifth Season and The Obelisk Gate. It’s a significant achievement, earned for Jemisin’s groundbreaking writing, blending of genres, and outstanding storytelling.

The complete list of nominees can be found in The Verge's story. Additional reporting can be found at the Guardian, on TOR.com, and elsewhere.


Original Submission

Related Stories

The Soylentils Award for Best Science Fiction Book 102 comments

In Science Fiction, some awards have become almost meaningless as they came to be dominated by interests other than the pure enjoyment of a truly good story. The Hugo Awards, for example, have descended into a left/right catfight. They have become as meaningless as a Nobel Peace Prize.

Some, like yours truly, have entirely stopped reading about awards after getting burned once too many times and rely almost entirely on word of mouth or serendipity to find new authors and worthwhile books.

Our recent discussion of "The winners of the 2018 Hugo Awards" brought the idea (from bzipitidoo) that perhaps Soylent News could do a better job of pointing out new works of Science Fiction that could be of interest to soylentils and janrinok supported the idea, going so far as offering a kidney to the best author. (I think he's British, so he might have meant a kidney pie. [Not true, but funny])

Mind you, we would need to separate Science Fiction from Sci-Fi, Fantasy and other genres that have been mishmashed into one by most publishers and awards organizations.

So what do you think? What is the best new author/book in Science Fiction?


Original Submission

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(1) 2
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @04:57PM (52 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @04:57PM (#724732)

    Anyone recommends something from that list? I guess I could use more things to read after I finish Red Mars trilogy.

    • (Score: 2) by crafoo on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:03PM (50 children)

      by crafoo (6639) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:03PM (#724736)

      I curious too, if someone here can actually recommend a single book on this year's Hugo list?

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:21PM (49 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:21PM (#724754) Homepage Journal

        I may look at the list. But, I'm put off by TFS. All I see is gloating that men have been kicked out, and women have taken over. At a guess, none of them are half the woman that LeGuin was. Other old skool female authors didn't need this support group nonsense either.

        And, oh yeah. Aristarchus sub.

        I really should look at the stories to see if they are science fiction or some fake genre.

        --
        Let's go Brandon!
        • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:56PM (1 child)

          by krishnoid (1156) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:56PM (#724772)

          Ok, if not the winners, how about any of the nominees?

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by driverless on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:04PM

            by driverless (4770) on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:04PM (#725166)

            Wouldn't Pence's space force announcement also qualify for the Hugos?

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:17PM (34 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:17PM (#724783) Journal

          I've edited Aristarchus' submission, it is more about the awards rather than the alt-right aspect now, and I have included a 2nd source to give the story balance.

          Try reading the linked articles.

          --
          It's always my fault...
          • (Score: 4, Informative) by aristarchus on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:30PM (17 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:30PM (#724792) Journal

            I've edited Aristarchus' submission,

            Yes, I hardly recognize it, and am surprised my name is still on it! As per usual, check out the original submission.

            --
            You are currently banned from moderating. The last day of your ban is 2022-03-25.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:44PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:44PM (#724803)

              Yes, I hardly recognize it, and am surprised my name is still on it!

              As was I but this Alt-Aristarchus submission is fine, keep it up!

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:58PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:58PM (#724836)

              My edited article submission is much better now! I demand this outrage stop!

              heh

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:17PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:17PM (#724865)

              Well I have to agree that "Poor Sad Puppies, now with extra sadness, and some Proud Boys on the side." is a pretty shitty addition to the summary.

              However, janrinok tries to remove the controversy by changing the parts you quoted, that is pretty scummy.

            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:46AM (13 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:46AM (#725025) Journal

              It is what editors do. The story was about the winners of the Hugo Award, the hit for the alt-right was a side issue. However, I left your quotation in the summary and some of our community still thought the story had a political bias.

              Seriously, thank you for the submission. Give me something to work with and your contributions can be on the front page.

              --
              It's always my fault...
              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday August 23 2018, @06:51AM (12 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday August 23 2018, @06:51AM (#725091) Journal

                My thanks, janrinok. But next time, a bit more respect for the line between an author and an editor? Even a lowly submitter deserves a bit of authorial respect, under the Moral Property provisions of the Berne convention.

                --
                You are currently banned from moderating. The last day of your ban is 2022-03-25.
                • (Score: 2, Interesting) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:50AM (11 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:50AM (#725103) Journal

                  If the alt-right aspect was the whole point of your submission, then change the headline to suit. Next time you try to get an alt-right story through by using a false headline then I will reject it.

                  I am more than happy to help you get your stories to the front page if they are not on your usual topic, unless they have got something new to say.

                  Show a little respect yourself to the other members of this community.

                  --
                  It's always my fault...
                  • (Score: 2, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:10AM (1 child)

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:10AM (#725109) Journal

                    Pretty sure the headline I submitted was taken from the source, not something I made up. But, have you noticed that people are out to get you, lately, janrinok? Especially the antifa, or the anti-alt-right? Just because people are out to get you, that does mean you are paranoid.

                    --
                    You are currently banned from moderating. The last day of your ban is 2022-03-25.
                  • (Score: 1) by oakgrove on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:29AM (8 children)

                    by oakgrove (5864) on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:29AM (#725113)

                    WTF? Alt right blah blah blah alt right right alt alt alt right rrrriiiigggghhhttttt. Jeez dude

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:35AM (7 children)

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:35AM (#725115) Journal

                      I apologise. But you ought to see what we have to put with that doesn't reach the front page.

                      --
                      It's always my fault...
                      • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:20PM (6 children)

                        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:20PM (#725358) Homepage Journal

                        You say we ought to see it. But, you don't put it on the frontpage. So goofy!!!

                        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday August 24 2018, @02:38AM (5 children)

                          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @02:38AM (#725563) Journal

                          You can read the contents of the submission queue any time you wish.

                          The material isn't suitable for the front page, which is why we don't publish it.

                          --
                          It's always my fault...
                          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday August 24 2018, @07:23AM (1 child)

                            by aristarchus (2645) on Friday August 24 2018, @07:23AM (#725680) Journal

                            The material isn't suitable for the front page, which is why we don't publish it.

                            As good a reason for censorship as any, I guess. . .

                            --
                            You are currently banned from moderating. The last day of your ban is 2022-03-25.
                            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday August 24 2018, @08:14AM

                              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @08:14AM (#725691) Journal

                              Stories are selected depending on quality and interest, and subsequently edited. That's what editors do.

                              Comments are not censored. If you check, you can still read all of yours.

                              Discussion closed.

                              --
                              It's always my fault...
                          • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Friday August 24 2018, @08:48PM (2 children)

                            by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Friday August 24 2018, @08:48PM (#726017) Homepage Journal

                            The Rejected Subs aren't in the Subs Queue. As everybody knows. Very hard to see those. It’s very complicated, you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.

                            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:20AM (1 child)

                              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:20AM (#726146) Journal

                              It’s very complicated, you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out.

                              No, but we do expect our community members to have a modicum of intelligence. There is always the exception to the rule though...

                              You can review all of your own submissions on your personal submissions page.

                              However, if you want others to see your rejected submissions, we suggest that you put them in your personal Journal - so that they can be kept in the database and backed-up automatically with all of our other data.

                              --
                              It's always my fault...
                              • (Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday August 25 2018, @09:34PM

                                by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Saturday August 25 2018, @09:34PM (#726361) Homepage Journal

                                You say, "oh, go look at your own Subs, at the ones we rejected." And I can do that very easily, that's so true. But we were talking about, @oakgrove should see the rejected Subs. From me, from @aristarchus, from anybody, I don't know. But you didn't say, "@oakgrove, you're part of the problem, go look at your TERRIBLE rejected Subs!" And I don't think you meant that. I think you meant, look at other people's rejected Subs, see how bad they are. But, not easy to see someone else's rejected Subs. Except, I assume, for people like TMB, @chromas and @cmn32480 who RUN the website and have VERY SPECIAL cyber powers. Like the ones you use for unmasking. You know it's not easy. And you go, "oh, all the SMART people can do it, @realDonaldTrump can't figure that one out, he must be DUMB, so sad!" Believe me, I can figure it out. If I want to spend a million years fiddling with the cyber. Who wants that? Nobody wants that. If I want to see @oakgrove's rejected Subs, where are they? I do the Search, right? I put oakgrove, I put submissions -- otherwise known as Subs. And there's nothing. But, I touch on @oakgrove's tweet where it says oakgrove. I touch submissions. There's a Sub that got accepted. And it says the rejected ones aren't "listed." Nice way to say, we know what you're looking for, we're hiding that. It shows the one that got accepted. I not listed in the Search, why? It was accepted, it's hidden in the Search. Not hidden in the other place. I'm not a cyber person, it looks like bad cyber to me. I'll tell you one thing about cyber, it always does exactly what the folks running it tell it to do. It's the most loyal thing you've seen in your entire life.

                                And I think you don't understand the cyber. And don't understand what you're saying. Because you say, I can go look at my rejected Subs. I can, I do, it's always PERFECTO. But you say, put Subs in journal so they can be kept. They're kept, I can tell they're kept. Because I can look at them. And you said I can look at them. Or maybe, you're saying they won't be kept anymore, maybe they'll get wiped. Wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to them. Little bit of a threat again. Believe me, I'm not worried. I'm hearing all the time about somebody flipping, somebody getting whacked. And maybe my Subs about old old news are getting wiped. It's a nothing.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:35PM (11 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:35PM (#724876)

            Yeah, we can't hurt the feelings of the alt-right folks around here can we? Even though the articles are totally about that topic.

            BAD EDITOR BAD! Go sit in the corner and think about what you're doing.

            • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @11:37PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @11:37PM (#724938)

              Does this mean you are okay with folks submitting stories in the form of editorials bashing the left? This simply isn't how discussion sites work, keep editorializing out of the submission and let people discuss it. It is not a difficult concept.

            • (Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:55AM (9 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:55AM (#725031) Journal

              There are 4 sources identified in TFS, The story is about the Hugo Awards, which they all covered, rather than the alt-right taking a hit, which only one source concentrated on. The 'controversy' as you call it is only a side issue, and the submission wasn't submitted as a political topic, so I focused on the main theme.

              --
              It's always my fault...
              • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:56AM (4 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:56AM (#725056)

                2 of the sources referenced the alt-right sad puppies, one was barely an article with maybe 2 paragraphs, and the last was just a full list.

                Anyway, it was a pseudo-serious joke comment and in another comment I said Aristarchus' personal comments were lame and unwarranted. They should be saved for the article comments. However you did screw with the paragraphs he quoted and dramatically changed the angle of the article to your own preferred interpretation.

                Trying to ignore the issues of racism and sexism is part of why it is such a big problem we can't seem to move past. It is much more than a "side issue".

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:39AM (3 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:39AM (#725073) Journal

                  The issue is a problem, but the story is either about the Hugo Awards or the alt-right. I elected to publish Aristarchus' submission based on his own quote that "The Hugo awards, being the favorite they are with SN readers, are out again!" and the title that he had chosen for his submission. It seemed to me that this was the main purpose of the submission and that is what I concentrated on. We have already covered the racism displayed by the alt-right repeatedly, we are not ignoring that fact at all.

                  If someone wishes to make a submission which focuses on the racism and sexism angle they are encouraged to do so. However, I will state that, in accordance with our publicised submission guidelines, they should ensure that they provide a balanced and unbiased offering, and use the quotations from the quoted sources to make the more extreme arguments. Personal opinions belong in the discussion comments, not in the summary.

                  --
                  It's always my fault...
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:58PM (2 children)

                by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:58PM (#725266) Journal

                We covered the Sad Puppies a lot last year. Now that they're Sad Loser Puppies we're supposed to not talk about it?

                Seems like an appropriate follow up to me.

                • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:34PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:34PM (#725391)

                  SN is a safe space DM. They can't limit the comments without being total hypocrites, but making sure stories that don't trigger VLM don't make it through the queue is a lot easier to bullshit away. Even without Ari's lame insults the alt-righters still went batshit bigotry.

                • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Friday August 24 2018, @08:52PM

                  by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Friday August 24 2018, @08:52PM (#726020) Homepage Journal

                  Great question. You tweet a lot of dumb things but this is a great question. But, "DISCUSSION CLOSED"!!!!

              • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday August 30 2018, @02:43AM

                by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday August 30 2018, @02:43AM (#728123) Homepage Journal

                Possibly you didn't see the Original Submission. Only 1 source in that one!!!!

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:29AM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:29AM (#724997) Homepage Journal

            The editing helps, maybe - but we're still talking about a bunch of women, liberals, progressives and whatnot gloating that they've kicked the men out. Then, talking about "diversity". Something, something, something drama just isn't "science fiction". It does qualify as fantasy though, depending on the individual's personal fantasies.

            None of it really matters though. I can still get my fix any time I like. Pretty much any author who publishes with Baen is well worth reading. That may change, or it may not.

            --
            Let's go Brandon!
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:13AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @07:13AM (#725095)

              If you think you can do better, go write a fucking book and win an award.

              Be sure to put a picture of your dick on the cover so everyone knows a man wrote the book. And make sure it's pointing to the right so everyone knows your political affiliation without having to read a word of your drivel.

              During the time you're busy writing your book we'll miss your contributions to SN. Really we will.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:50AM (1 child)

                by jmorris (4844) on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:50AM (#725118)

                Uh, we are talking about the Hugos, right? The purpose of which used to be calling out quality material for fans to read. Now simply picking "anything published by Baen" is a better selection method. In other words, he has identified a superior metric than the Hugo. The modern Hugo is more an anti-indicator of quality, seeing a title win it means it is probably safe to ignore. Not sure I'd agree with his assessment entirely, but things sure seem to be moving in that direction quickly. Looks like some good stuff still gets nominated but politics is picking the winner now.

                Seriously, who thinks this twaddle that has now won three years running, mostly as an attempt to "show" the Puppies who runs things, will be remembered in fifty years? Now go look back 50 year at the awards in 1968 and see if you recognize any. And 1968 was a 'down year' following the two prior years when Herbert won with Dune and Heinlein got one for The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. Major literary works that will never be forgotten, they will carry those to the space colonies and be reading them.

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:08PM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:08PM (#725204) Homepage Journal

                  Major literary works that will never be forgotten,

                  Never is a long time. We do need to keep in mind that we have political minded groups today who are working hard to ensure the next generations do forget all about any white hetero males, especially if any of those males are Christian.

                  When's the last time you heard anyone talking of Mark Twain, and Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn? "Oh, but, das raciss!"

                  Ever wondered how many other entertainers (authors, singers, playwrights, etc) were huge sensations in their day and time, only to be forgotten later for political reasons? This may be a new phenomenon. Sure, lots of people have probably been forgotten, but for reasons other than political!

                  --
                  Let's go Brandon!
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:24PM (10 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:24PM (#724789)

          I only skimmed, but I didn't see any gloating and nothing at all about men being kicked out and women taking over. My guess is you're other posts on here of "I read some of their stuff, well the free stuff, and it was ok" is this story's equivalent of "One of my good friends is black!"

          The sad truth is the alt-right crowd simply didn't like the popular trends that have been developing and the uncomfortable light it apparently shed on their own deep personal feelings. They tried to rig the system because they feel the system is rigged against them, but the truth is just that they are on the less popular side of societal evolution.

          Queue the responses in this sub. The alt-right should have doubled down on their policy of "personal responsibility" and "meritocracy" instead of trying to brigade the system and force their ideas through. Typical of the alt-right types, hypocrisy and all.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:42PM (9 children)

            by VLM (445) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:42PM (#724879)

            but the truth is just that they are on the less popular side of societal evolution.

            That's the fundamental problem with the Hugo... its implied to be a selection of highest quality, but by merely being the most politically correct from a far left perspective, all it selects for is crappy stuff from the non-white-est non-males. I'm sure the authors are VERY impressively non-white and VERY impressively non-male, but seeing as there was no selecting for their output, their output is quite mediocre.

            Being anti-white and anti-male has historically not been a winning strategy; its not looking like a winning strategy for the future either.

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:20PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:20PM (#724902)

              *Whine whine crazy anti-liberal lizard person rant*

              Sorry was there some actual content buried in your commentary?

              • (Score: 4, Informative) by Spamalope on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:03AM (4 children)

                by Spamalope (5233) on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:03AM (#724985) Homepage

                I'm sorry was there content in your ad hominem?

                VLM's opinion that ranking based on ideology doesn't yield the best stories isn't flame bait. Denigrating the Hugos by giving asshole * awards based on ideology was a move by the staff that ran the awards name threw the dirt and the event that made me look into the controversy.

                The controversy basically boils down to an accusation that Tor was organizing ballot slates to pick a winner, and that discrimination based on age/political belief/gender/race was occurring. The resulting behavior indicated ballot tampering/block voting had been happening, and tended to confirm that the accusations of discrimination had merit. The ensuing events imploded the remaining broad prestige of the awards leaving it as an in-group award wearing the name of a former genre wide award.

                • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:13AM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:13AM (#725063)

                  Got some evidence to confirm any of that? Everything I read points to the Hugos being incredibly transparent. This [gizmodo.com] is a pretty good breakdown which makes me think you forgot to apply Occam's razor.

                  The content of my ad-hominem WAS the ad-hominem, that is about all VLM ever deserves except for the odd bit of tech knowledge here and there. Per usual we have the alt-righters attacking people because their own ideology is in the minority, and they have good company with suckers like you. THAT is why VLM deserves nothing but scorn, all he ever seems to have is rabid anti-liberal paranoia.

                  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:38AM (2 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:38AM (#725072) Journal

                    Everything I read points to the Hugos being incredibly transparent.

                    Then, for example, you should be able to tell us who voted for what, right?

                    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:30PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:30PM (#725237)

                      Im not the one leveling accusations you disingenuos twat.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24AM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24AM (#725611) Journal
                        Some AC made an erroneous statement about the "transparency" of the Hugos Award voting (and indeed any voting system with secret ballots).
            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:25PM (2 children)

              by hendrikboom (1125) on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:25PM (#725234) Homepage Journal

              The majority of people in the world are not white males.

              • (Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday August 23 2018, @06:48PM

                by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Thursday August 23 2018, @06:48PM (#725338) Homepage Journal

                That depends on what you mean by people. Our Founding Fathers had some brilliant ideas about that one!!!

              • (Score: 2) by VLM on Friday August 24 2018, @06:08PM

                by VLM (445) on Friday August 24 2018, @06:08PM (#725944)

                Agreed, but the demographics of people who voluntarily read English language science fiction have very little in common with the demographics of the world.

        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:02PM

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:02PM (#725269) Journal

          I think the gloating is more about the failure of the rightwingers who politicized the damn thing in the first place.

          Turnabout is fair play.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Sourcery42 on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:10PM

      by Sourcery42 (6400) on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:10PM (#725273)

      I've read Broken Earth. It isn't a bad read, but I don't see what all the fuss over it is about. It is OK far future science fantasy; without a doubt way more fantasy than science if that makes a difference to anyone. OK story with some compelling aspects, but ultimately forgettable. It can't hold a candle to many of the other distinguished winners like Dune, American Gods, Hyperion, etc. It makes pretty strong use of racism and gender equality in its themes, but not to the point of being sickening about it.

      Broken Earth is definitely pink sci-fi, but Jemisin's storytelling doesn't absolutely wallow in social justice to the point of ruining a good tale like say Ann Leckie. Leckie's Ancillary Justice started off so promising with interesting takes on sentient AI and hive minds, but then devolved into absolute social justice tripe. I had to keep reading the Ancillary sequels just to see if they had any redeeming qualities, or managed to recover from a shaky middle and cap off a nice story arc. They didn't. Perhaps a bigger disappointment than the Matrix movie sequels.

      If you want to read some science fantasy with Broken in the title, allow me to recommend Broke Empire. It definitely won't win any Hugo awards in this climate. If fact Broken Empire is just about the polar opposite of Broken Earth, other than a common theme of characters driven by loss and tragedy. It is absolutely brutal and not for the squeamish. The main character is the most anti anti-hero ever, but he keeps you constantly wondering what crazy shit he'll come up with next and makes for a very compelling read.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by crafoo on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:02PM (1 child)

    by crafoo (6639) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:02PM (#724734)

    Don't dig too deep into the sci-fi & fantasy publishing and awards world. Kind of like the old saying, "don't fight with stupid people".

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM (#724750)

      *no comment*

  • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:07PM (3 children)

    by Freeman (732) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:07PM (#724739) Journal

    Personally, I've been rather addicted to the Spinward Fringe series by Randolph Lalonde.

    --
    Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:10PM (1 child)

      by Freeman (732) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:10PM (#724741) Journal

      Also, if I remember right, one or two of the books in the series are available for free on the Nook platform. I also, highly recommend any of the Nook E-Readers (Not the tablets, but those are ok too.), except for the original (The weird one with a LCD Screen and E-Ink Screen.).

      --
      Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:16PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:16PM (#724746) Homepage Journal

        I was exposed to Spinward Fringe on Kindle, when they offered it free. Can't remember definitely, think I got books 1 through 3 for free, the rest are on offer at reduced prices. I read the free ones. Pretty good story.

        --
        Let's go Brandon!
    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM

      by Freeman (732) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM (#724747) Journal

      Also, the Terran Republic Series by Charles E. Gannon. This one got me hooked: https://www.baen.com/fire-with-fire.html [baen.com]

      If you want an interesting read, read the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book. If you want to delve into the mind of an Atheist, read the rest of the series.

      --
      Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
  • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM (13 children)

    by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:17PM (#724749) Journal

    Best novel: The Obelisk Gate by N. K. Jemisin
    All the Birds in the Sky by Charlie Jane Anders
    A Closed and Common Orbit by Becky Chambers
    Death’s End by Cixin Liu
    Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
    Too Like the Lightning by Ada Palme

    So which one of those was the Sad Puppies choice?

    Or in any other category is fine. My point is how good were their nominees, really? And have they ever actually won anything? If not, they're just causing noise that the signal still overreaches, equivalent to a lame troll. As for everything else... might as well call party politics manipulating the system then. (Which it is, though the ethicality of having parties at all usually isn't questioned.)

    --
    Keep everyone ignorant of the magical world! KEEP AMERICA OBLIVIATE!
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:26PM (1 child)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:26PM (#724756) Homepage Journal

      Cixin Liu is good. I have no reservations about his work. He could be the next Asimov or Clarke.

      --
      Let's go Brandon!
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:43PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:43PM (#724764)

        That's what I'm thinking. Anybody else like that out there now, or just soft mushy pretend-SF? Am still doing old SF, plenty there there.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:46PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:46PM (#724765)

      Space Raptor Butt Invasion won every Hugo, forever. They just haven't realized it yet.

    • (Score: 2) by jelizondo on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:07PM (6 children)

      by jelizondo (653) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:07PM (#724781) Journal

      The only book I read by Cixin Liu is "The three body problem" and that was excellent! A bit hard to follow at times, but a great read; if his other books have the same standard, they must be good too.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by charon on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:56AM (5 children)

        by charon (5660) on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:56AM (#725011)
        In my opinion, The Three Body Problem is the best of the trilogy. The Dark Forest and Death's End are also quite good, and amazingly inventive, but not quite as brilliant as the first book. Really though, that's a high bar to clear. Each of the books in the series has enough clever ideas for an ordinary author to milk a career out of but Liu just keeps astounding you with something new.
        • (Score: 1) by jelizondo on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:49AM (4 children)

          by jelizondo (653) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @02:49AM (#725029) Journal

          Thanks for the reply. I didn't know he had written more books untl today. I quit trusting awards and most reviews as they are contaminated by money (mostly) or some sense of justice which escapes me.

          I'll check the two other books.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:56AM (3 children)

            by bzipitidoo (4388) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:56AM (#725058) Journal

            SoylentNews could inaugurate a new award. The SoylentNews SF/Fantasy Reader's Choice novel of the year?

            • (Score: 2) by jelizondo on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:12AM (2 children)

              by jelizondo (653) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:12AM (#725081) Journal

              That would be great. No f*cks given to money, gender or any other criteria except that the story is good or at the very least, that you liked it enough to vote for it.

              Hey guys! bzipitidoo had a good idea! Can we get it done somehow?

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:06AM (1 child)

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:06AM (#725107) Journal

                It's a great idea. Somebody give me a submission asking our community to tell us what they found to be the best SF book or film of the last year, or even the best ever, and I will publish it under the Reviews topic. Let the discussion follow.

                It all starts with a submission, and that is the Community's role, not mine.

                I can't promise anything of value for an 'Award' though....

                --
                It's always my fault...
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @10:48AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @10:48AM (#725137)

                  More people will read those books. Ain't bad for an award.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by qzm on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:55AM (2 children)

      by qzm (3260) on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:55AM (#725010)

      What has happened is that two DISTINCTLY different genres have been mashed together, mostly by publishers.
      Science Fiction, and Fantasy.

      This has an unfortunate effect.
      The Fantasy fans tend to be HIGHLY anti-science, mostly because their own stories are so full of science holes (which is fine, they like fantasy, not science) that they seemingly cannot avoid hating the other 'side' in the group.
      Now, the fantasy readers also tend to be a FAR more PC group - generally younger, generally more feminine, generally with much less life experience, BUT also generally with a whole lot more time on their hands.

      So we end up with a situation like this - the problem here is not the Hugos being 'taken over' by a liberal view - its the Hugos being transformed from a SF award to a Fantasy award.
      Almost ALL of these winners are Fantasy - sometimes wrapped up a in thin layer to make them seem more 'future like'.

      It is actually quite painful for the fans of actual SF, and many of them are confused by it - but its a form of cultural appropriation - the Fantasy fans are taking by force of numbers and noise awards originally intended for SF.

      the solution? The Hugos should simply be relabeled as a Fantasy fiction award.

      • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:58PM

        by Freeman (732) on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:58PM (#725267) Journal

        I dunno, I really liked Robert Jordan's - Wheel of Time series. Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth Series up until the last couple of chapters (maybe just the last chapter / whatever that stupid soap box he got up on was) in the last book of that series, with some 'meh on the spin offs. Also, the Stormlight Archives by Robert Sanderson. Then there's the Epic, Saga of Recluse series of books by L. E. Modesitt, Jr. As well as the "Lightbringer" series by Brent Weeks. There's also R. A. Salvatore's "The Highwayman" series of books. Just because, there's a whole load of Romance Novel + Fantasy mashups out there doesn't mean there aren't some good Fantasy Books/Series.

        --
        Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @09:11PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @09:11PM (#725408)

        It is actually quite painful for the fans of actual SF, and many of them are confused by it - but its a form of cultural appropriation - the Fantasy fans are taking by force of numbers and noise awards originally intended for SF.

        the solution? The Hugos should simply be relabeled as a Fantasy fiction award.

        Or, like systemd, they could fuck off and make their own award, that doesn't involve stealing someone else's and mangling it into something it wasn't intended to be.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:21PM (34 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @05:21PM (#724755)

    Way back when awards like Hugo and Nebula were created more or less as half publicity, half politics. Scifi was generally regarded as pulpy trash for kids, not real literature, so the publishers and authors and fans put their heads together and created awards to give it all an aura of, at least, respectability, but also some recognition for fine work that exemplified a certain kind of approach to the unknown.

    And they mostly succeeded.

    Time passed, scifi became more prestigious (or at least less tainted) so the focus of the early fans was lost, while the focus of the publishing houses was not. The publishing houses were motivated to shoehorn anything in that might win a Hugo, because that meant sales. Of course, this diluted the brand by dumping a lot of generic speculative fiction, but at this point the sales issue was less of a factor anyway. Scifi could stand on its own shelves with pride.

    Now it has become a temple for the bien-pensant literati to defend from the muddy peasants from whom they'd wrested it, like colonial officers dispossessing a primitive tribe. What they don't realise is that they haven't succeeded in converting the tribe's religion, no matter how much their priests hallowed the temple. They just displaced them.

    Another time, another temple.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by meustrus on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:21PM (33 children)

      by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @06:21PM (#724785)

      I'm genuinely curious what the "religion" is that you're saying has been merely "displaced". What do the "muddy peasants" want?

      I'm only reading this comment section in the hopes that the anti-SJW crowd around here, by virtue of being more literate than the average anti-SJW, would explain this. Every time this Sad Puppies crap comes up, I get the impression that the "muddy peasants" think that the books written by women don't amount to "real scifi", but what "real scifi" means is left pretty vague, and it is never explained how the Sad Puppies list is any different. Other than being written by people in the same identity group as the Sad Puppies, of course.

      In short, what is the case for book Y to win instead of book X written by the novelist-equivalent of a diversity hire, without appealing to some sense of wounded pride about said diversity hire?

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:07PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:07PM (#724809)

        The only real position I've been able to glean from the sad puppy supporters is basically a mimicry of the social vs. hard sciences discrimination that tends to float around here.

        A lot of the new sci fi, supposedly especially the stuff written by women, is about character development and society and lacks the "real hard scifi elements". Basically not enough science in the new science fiction seems to be the main complaint. My guess is that is a part of why The Martian was so popular, tons of Macgyver-ish science stuff and some good humor.

        I think this whole situation is quite childish of the puppy supporters, they want the same comfortable enjoyable format they grew up with. The irony is pretty appalling, scifi has always been the genre that pushes cultural boundaries and discusses possibilities for humanity's future. Gender and race issues have never featured too terribly much in earlier scifi, partly I think because those early scifi writers wanted to skip past the ugly reality of the present and imagine a future where such trivial matters were no longer even an issue!

        Now those issues are being tackled because it is politically OK with most of society to write about them and still sell books. I'm sure not every sad puppy member is a misogynistic racist, but sadly that is the underlying tone of their movement. Once the sad puppies are able to bridge that gap in their prejudice then we can have some discussions about the meritocracy of Hugo Award winners, and a good start would be for them to start separating themselves from the racist human garbage in their midst.

        Examples of the bad/stupid/childish behavior

        Diversifying the pool of established SFF authors hasn’t been smooth sailing. In 2013, a writer named Theodore Beale, a.k.a. “Vox Day,” was banned from the professional Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association (SFWA) after making posts referring to Jemisin as a “half-savage.” That same year, a writer named Larry Correia made a blog post in which he complained that his “unabashed pulp action that isn’t heavy handed message fic” wasn’t getting any Hugo nominations, and suggested that his audience game the awards by nominating him en masse.

        Half savage? I guess that racism just never ends.
        Unabashed pulp action? Bleh, that has never been an overly popular scifi genre. Those are the books left out for free, or 10 for $1 type of thing. Like romance novels they are terribly cliche and fit a niche, but will likely never get any award without some truly deeper story behind the blam blam fizz pop weeoooo fwoosh action.

        • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:53PM

          by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:53PM (#724833)

          Blarg, here I go posting without reading all the comments again. You pretty much pre-hit all the points I made.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:09PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:09PM (#724862)

          I think this whole situation is quite childish of the puppy supporters, they want the same comfortable enjoyable format they grew up with. The irony is pretty appalling, scifi has always been the genre that pushes cultural boundaries and discusses possibilities for humanity's future.

          Identity politics and collectivism have no future. To the extent that sci-fi metaphorically deals with current social ills, the emotionally infantile SJW contingent is that current social ill. The only social issue that desperately needs addressing could well be done so in a tome titled "Sanctimonious Twats in Space". That is the hard science!

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:48PM

          by VLM (445) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:48PM (#724884)

          they want the same comfortable enjoyable format they grew up with.

          So we're here at the Traditional Italian Food Awards competition, and a bunch of illegal aliens stormed the gates and elected a taco as the winner of the italian Food Awards competition, and somehow the "problem" is the people who got stormed didn't lay back and think of England enough; Victim blaming at its finest.

          Its really no different than voting "Taylor Swift's 22" the winner at a "Greatful Dead Awards Show". What kind of shitty person would do that, to begin with, and why?

          truly deeper story behind the...

          ... romance novel in space.

          Anyone who wanted shitty romance novels HAD shitty romance novels. For awhile there was sci fi as an interesting intellectual adventure. Now progress means we no longer have a choice; shitty romance novels for all and attack anyone who doesn't like them because thats "diversity" and thats why "diversity" is great, LOL.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:22PM (24 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:22PM (#724814)

        You have to ask why a "diversity hire" [urbandictionary.com] shouldn't get recognition? Human societies respect and reward achievement, not immutable characteristics, identity politics or virtue signaling literary bourgeoisie. After years of turning their noses at sci-fi, the leftist literati are now going to dictate to the audience what good science fiction is? No!

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:33PM (22 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:33PM (#724825)

          "leftist literati"
          heh, crazy bastard confirmed

          perhaps you have not heard but racism and sexism are pretty massive topics across the whole planet, only recently have they begun to be addressed in popular culture like scifi writing

          now going to dictate to the audience what good science fiction is?

          i do not recall ever reading a book because it won a hugo award, maybe you are just a sheep bleating for your misogynerd masters ;)

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:51PM (19 children)

            by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:51PM (#724831)

            perhaps you have not heard but racism and sexism are pretty massive topics across the whole planet, only recently have they begun to be addressed in popular culture like scifi writing

            Maybe I'm joining two ideas that aren't meant to be combined, but from our readership here, I imagine that the logic could go

            A) Science Fiction
            B) Racism and sexism are sociology things, i.e. "soft science" because they concern feelings, not measurable physical numbers like rock density
            C) We want harder science like physics, orbital mechanics, genetic engineering, etc.

            That apparently all (literally) of these "soft sci fi" books are being written by women is just sort of a happy coincidence of the whole "women are more empathetic" sociology stereotype. And that white males are less likely to spend time worrying about discrimination because it rarely affects them directly.

            racism and sexism are pretty massive topics across the whole planet, only recently have they begun to be addressed in popular culture

            And 2) some of us read books to escape reality, not be constantly reminded that the world is a shithole.

            Not that I'd consider myself right-wing in general. But hey.

            --
            "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
            • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:55PM

              by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @07:55PM (#724835)

              Like the previous couple of years, women almost completely swept the awards.

              Whoops, guess my eyes skipped over an important word.

              --
              "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:52PM (17 children)

              by VLM (445) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:52PM (#724887)

              Racism and sexism are sociology things, i.e. "soft science" because they concern feelings, not measurable physical numbers like rock density

              Note the extreme political bias involved in recent years, extreme far left perspective is the only perspective allowed.

              No one really complains much about "Starship Troopers" or plenty of other fairly soft Heinlein novels. Its when the only sociology allowed is strictly limited to Marxist, that the topic becomes a parody of itself.

              How do you write GOOD left wing propaganda in a sci fi theme? Well, apparently, you can't. Thats kinda the problem.

              • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:29PM (7 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:29PM (#724909)

                Pffft, you are the alt-right poster child of SN so you don't get an opinion here. You ARE the problem.

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:54PM (4 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:54PM (#724924)

                  In Venezuela it's cheaper to wipe your ass on banknotes than buy toilet paper. This isn't some dystopian fiction, it's socialism in action. Do you defend the indefensible or resort to name calling and then claim VLM shouldn't get to express his opinion? Why haven't the far-left all emigrated to Venezuela?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:17AM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:17AM (#725064)

                    Cause you're an idiot?

                    I can't prevent VLM from expressing an opinion and I wouldn't, but I will gladly point out his lame shit any day. As for you, if you can't even use a dictionary don't bother forming opinions, just go puke that shit straight into the toilet.

                    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:20PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:20PM (#725255)

                      so you don't get an opinion here

                      I can't prevent VLM from expressing an opinion and I wouldn't

                      Your two posts are mutually exclusive. Which is it?

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:38PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:38PM (#725393)

                        Oh ho, NOW you care about hypocrisy??? You fuckers are something else.

                  • (Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:15PM

                    by VLM (445) on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:15PM (#725170)

                    Do you defend the indefensible or resort to name calling and then claim VLM shouldn't get to express his opinion?

                    Those are the only argumentative weapons the left has; almost seems unfair to take those away. Its great optics for "ourguys" when the general public sees the oppositions best remaining debating tools are weak grade school playground level.

                    I mean, seriously, Marxism and socialism is so discredited the supporters are struggling with little left than calling the opponents "poopy heads". I, uh, think we've won, LOL.

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:22AM (1 child)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:22AM (#725112) Journal

                  so you don't get an opinion here

                  But he does, despite your later statement acknowledging that you can't actually stop him from stating it. We all get an opinion. That's what this site is all about.

                  --
                  It's always my fault...
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:33PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @03:33PM (#725239)

                    No shit sherlock, dont take the hyperbole too seriously.

              • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:26AM (5 children)

                by bzipitidoo (4388) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:26AM (#725068) Journal

                You're calling the militaristic novel Starship Troopers soft? No way! Even if you mean it's not hard SF, not full of science, I don't agree. Yeah, sure, there's harder, more detailed and logical SF out there. And what science Starship Troopers has is obviously bent towards making the whole idea of space paratroopers at least slightly plausible, when WWI and WWII amply demonstrated that paratroop drops can be suicidally stupid. With what we have and know today, it's even more improbable. Send in the drones, not fragile, precious humans. And further, every military officer knows space, as in Earth orbit, is a fantastic place to park all kinds of weaponry, which is why we have treaties forbidding it Seems far more sensible for the humans to stay on their ships and rain down destruction from the safety of orbit.

                • (Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:11PM (4 children)

                  by VLM (445) on Thursday August 23 2018, @12:11PM (#725169)

                  I don't agree.

                  The remainder of your comment seems to agree its a VERY lightly skinned WWII paratrooper story.

                  Not that there's anything wrong with WWII paratrooper stories; its just not SF. A WWII paratrooper story thinly reset into the year 3000 is merely military fiction or more likely fantasy. And even that is not necessarily a bad book, but it is not SF.

                  • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:18PM (1 child)

                    by tangomargarine (667) on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:18PM (#725254)

                    A science fiction version of the story would explain why spaceparatroopers were still viable, regardless of how well the explanation stands up to scrutiny.

                    --
                    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
                    • (Score: 2) by VLM on Friday August 24 2018, @05:45PM

                      by VLM (445) on Friday August 24 2018, @05:45PM (#725932)

                      Agree and extend that having read the book you'd think the argument is you need brains on site high IQ to require infantry instead of "nuke it from orbit just to be sure" so naturally the outcome of all the battles I recall from the book resemble the outcome of an artillery barrage.

                      You can replace massed charges with mortars and drones and missiles; delta force will never be replaced, etc.

                      Its a good book and I liked it, but theres no getting around the issue that he wanted to write a book about WWII era US Marine Corps paratrooper operations, so he EXTREMELY thinly skinned it. And because he did an excellent job he gets a free pass a lot. But its still not SF. You just can't plagiarize "Band of Brothers" and copy and paste in a space suit helmet and "now its good sci fi".

                  • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:50PM (1 child)

                    by bzipitidoo (4388) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @05:50PM (#725300) Journal

                    "Hard" science seems to really mean just engineering, stuff like rocket science, astronomy, physics, chemistry, mechanics, and maybe a dash of biology, particularly in the direction of cyborgs. Steampunk is that taken to the extreme, and then washed out to ignore the insurmountable problem that steam power is relatively weak. SF stories can have behavioral science, political science, marketing, language, and history, but most works skip that. It's really fantastical how well we communicate with the aliens we encounter in SF stories. One of the best STNG episodes was Darmok, possibly because its theme was communication, and that is a rare story line in SF. Usually, it's let us skip the boring difficulties so we can get down to cases. At the other extreme is how frequent autocracies are in SF, like the Empire in Star Wars, as if despite all this incredible scientific advance, we've gone nowhere in advancing the means of governing ourselves, even are still stuck in the backward methods of the Middle Ages, when despite the invention of democracy in classical antiquity centuries before, Europeans were busy sucking up to The Man, in the form of a king and his nobility. Even crazier is stories with advanced alien societies that are organized in such a backward way.

                    So, yes, Starship Troopers is hard science, but very narrow. It tries to address the engineering needs of the idea of paratrooping in from space-- need a spacesuit, check, needs to be armored, the armor needs to be powered, need good communications-- and handwaves away the questions of why a military could need that particular capability, including the larger engineering questions of how a paratroop drop from orbit could work at all in the face of automatic precision weaponry and aliens who've obviously never heard of the Geneva Conventions (no shooting at parachuting people, that's hitting below the belt!) and wouldn't comprehend it let alone subscribe to it. But there are even larger questions of why a society could need or use space borne military, why the author thinks a militaristic society is evidently such a natural progression or state of affairs it need hardly be explained. What is more likely is that should we encounter intelligent aliens, they will be far more advanced than us, and a war with them would make about as much sense as the Aztecs sending troops to Spain to punish the Spanish for trying to overthrow their government. We would be utterly at their mercy. In short, the premises of Heinlein's classic are very, very wrong. But it shouldn't be knocked too hard for that-- futurology is notoriously hard, and being spectacularly wrong is just par for the course. One of the fundamental premises of Asimov's Foundation series is that fantastically far reaching futurology is possible. It fits with the sort of engineering arrogance prevalent in that post WWII era.

                    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Friday August 24 2018, @06:01PM

                      by VLM (445) on Friday August 24 2018, @06:01PM (#725941)

                      There are aspects of your argument that are extremely convincing. Yes I do recall that "everyone" knows about powered armor now, but that was a new idea then.

                      What is more likely is that should we encounter intelligent aliens, they will be far more advanced than us, and a war with them would make about as much sense as the Aztecs sending troops to Spain to punish the Spanish for trying to overthrow their government.

                      War is all about logistics, and a counter-example is Afghanistan has enough logistical challenges that its been the graveyard of multiple empires over millennia. So ... 50 really talented dudes from another galaxy arrives, they might waste an entire tank division before we wipe them out, and it costs their parent civilization a hundred trillion bitcoin (corrected for inflation and currency) to make and send those 50 special forces guys to our galaxy and our backyard whereas we can stand up a tank division for maybe a million bitcoin so in the long run...

              • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:44PM (1 child)

                by meustrus (4961) on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:44PM (#725198)

                No one really complains much about "Starship Troopers" or plenty of other fairly soft Heinlein novels.

                You make a good point, VLM. Why does nobody complain about soft science when the sci fi theme is a veneer over right-wing propaganda? Does the sci fi audience have a double standard for soft propaganda?

                --
                If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
                • (Score: 2) by VLM on Friday August 24 2018, @05:48PM

                  by VLM (445) on Friday August 24 2018, @05:48PM (#725934)

                  Hard to resist the old "reality has a right wing bias" quote, leading to the insinuation that right-wing sci fi is substantially more believable and realistic and better thought-out.

                  Consider Ringo's "Live Free or Die" and its subsequent series; it might be ridiculous in its own snarky way, but its less utterly ridiculous than, say, "Avatar the movie".

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:36PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:36PM (#725264)

                How do you write GOOD left wing propaganda in a sci fi theme? Well, apparently, you can't. Thats kinda the problem.

                Iain Banks.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:07PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @10:07PM (#724893)

            perhaps you have not heard but racism and sexism are pretty massive topics across the whole planet, only recently have they begun to be addressed in popular culture like scifi writing

            LOL [sf-encyclopedia.com]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:33PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2018, @04:33PM (#725261)

            Uhh, scifi has dealt with topics like racism and sexism since pretty early on. Do you even read scifi?

        • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:00PM

          by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:00PM (#724857)

          Looks like my editing was bad. My intent was to challenge you to prove that book X is objectively worse than book Y regardless of whether you think it was written by a "diversity hire". That the author of book X meets the Urban Dictionary definition, especially its negative connotations, is not to be assumed true.

          --
          If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:25PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 22 2018, @09:25PM (#724872)

        It is a very tired and rehashed debate. If you have honestly not heard the argument, Eric Raymond wrote fairly extensively and precisely about it when it first happened. Most relevant articles here [ibiblio.org] and here [ibiblio.org].

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 22 2018, @11:31PM (2 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 22 2018, @11:31PM (#724935) Journal

          Informative. But I happen to profoundly disagree with ESR's definition of SF.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:18AM (1 child)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @08:18AM (#725111) Journal

            Oh, you are a tease...

            You've left me, as someone who hasn't read any SF for over 50 years or so, wondering what your objections are to ESR's definition, and how do you define it? You might be absolutely correct in your views, but I don't know in any detail what your views are.

            --
            It's always my fault...
            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:11PM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 23 2018, @01:11PM (#725189) Journal

              Read some Ursula K LeGuinn (RIP) Some of her stories are really challenging the fact there is a clear line between Fantasy and SciFi. The Sci is brought in by a vigorous yet gentile handwaving, but the characters as so relatable.

              Maybe there's something heroic about some of them, but only just enough heroism to justify their 'character' trait (ie inclusion in the plot/story).

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
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