NPR has an August 23rd, 2018 story about the original "A-TEAM" (Athletes in Temporary Employment as Agricultural Manpower), a 1965 project to replace migrant workers with high school kids on summer break.
The year was 1965. On Cinco de Mayo, newspapers across the country reported that Secretary of Labor W. Willard Wirtz wanted to recruit 20,000 high schoolers to replace the hundreds of thousands of Mexican agricultural workers who had labored in the United States under the so-called Bracero Program. Started in World War II, the program was an agreement between the American and Mexican governments that brought Mexican men to pick harvests across the U.S. It ended in 1964, after years of accusations by civil rights activists like Cesar Chavez that migrants suffered wage theft and terrible working and living conditions.
But farmers complained — in words that echo today's headlines — that Mexican laborers did the jobs that Americans didn't want to do, and that the end of [the program] meant that crops would rot in the fields.
[...] the national press was immediately skeptical. "Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial. "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."
[One group] got paid minimum wage — $1.40 an hour back then — plus 5 cents for every crate filled with about 30 to 36 [melons.] [Students] worked six days a week, with Sundays off, and they were not allowed to return home during their stint. The farmers sheltered them in... "defunct housing" [according to one student].
Problems arose immediately... In California's Salinas Valley, 200 teenagers... quit after just two weeks on the job... Students elsewhere staged strikes. At the end, the A-TEAM was considered a giant failure and was never tried again.
[Stony Brook University history professor Lori A. Flores] says the A-TEAM "reveals a very important reality: It's not about work ethic [for undocumented workers]. It's about [the fact] that this labor is not meant to be done under such bad conditions and bad wages."
The kids gave up their summer vacations, worked in 110 degree heat six days a week, slept with no air conditioning, and ate subsistence rations, for nearly no benefit; it's no wonder the program was not a rousing success.
In tangentially-related news, the U.S. Libertarian Party published a press release the day before entitled "Immigrants Benefit the United States" that makes the blanket assertion "Immigrants, almost across the board, are a net value to the United States."
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Friday August 24 2018, @04:54AM (56 children)
Pay more. It's shitty work, nobody wants to do it. So pay more. Yeah, prices at the local megamart will go up. Don't like it? I'd like to say write your local congresscritter, but unless you can donate the max amount to their campaign fund you'll be ignored.
I'd also say tighten the rules for welfare, unemployment, and other ways government pays for the 50% of Americans that don't work but, well, one can of worms at a time is enough for this half drunk dood headed for bed.
Every time a Christian defends Trump an angel loses it's lunch.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:55AM (50 children)
If the pay goes up, the incentive to automate that job goes up.
Obviously, there is already a lot of automation in big agriculture, but there could be even more.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Friday August 24 2018, @05:01AM
In the 60s that didn't matter, and it would have been a good time for lettuce pickers to get 2-3x minimum wage.
Nowadays? That was kinda my point. Shitty jobs should IMHO go away. Of course, then the limbo dance of low wages vs job shittiness goes up, but, well, it's been a while since I made a buggy whip.
Every time a Christian defends Trump an angel loses it's lunch.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:28AM (47 children)
If automated, then my food isn't getting touched all over by humans. This change would improve food safety.
If automated, then there is less temptation to import uneducated people who hate my culture, values, and more.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:36AM (46 children)
Hispanics immigrants as a rule are hard workers.
They are Christian and, while their countries are poor, are Western societies in the main sense, albeit corrupt ones. They aren't looking to overthrow our culture.
Yes a small number are criminal, but the vast majority are not. They are here to work, not get handouts.
I wish I could say the same of all immigrant nationalities...
Having said those positive things, I still think we need a slow down in immigration to assimilate all those we already have.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:48AM (5 children)
That means a major shift in demographics towards Hispanic immigrants is a major shift away from the founding principles of a small, explicitly limited government whose sole role is to protect each individual citizen's natural, innate rights, chief among which are the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (i.e., the pursuit of self-interest).
There are major cultural facets of America at stake here. Latin American culture is not anywhere close to U.S. culture.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:25AM (2 children)
Dude, that ship
sailedsank a long time ago. The latest example is borrowing $1T to provide tax cuts for corporations. That's not "small, explicitly limited government" in any sense of the word.(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:50PM (1 child)
Those numbers are from 2015 [oecd.org].
Given the enormity of the United States in terms of population, diversity of population, diversity of climate and geography, etc., the U.S. has a spectacularly small government.
Also, just because the government has grown doesn't mean it's OK to let it fatten even further. Those old American principles are still at play.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday August 25 2018, @06:29AM
What would those numbers look like if both healthcare and education were folded in?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:29PM (1 child)
There are some differences, but they aren't as big as you think.
As another poster has said, native American culture has already shifted away from what you are espousing! The real danger to our culture comes from radical Americans at this point (whatever their ethnic origin). It's too bad our social policies emphasize balkanization. Time for a pause to assimilate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:49PM
Who the hell modded my post as Flamebait?
Did someone see themselves on the receiving end? This just underscores my last point.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:17AM (21 children)
It is not true that "a small number are criminal".
First of all, 100% of the people who illegally crossed the border are criminal. Many of the rest are also criminal, getting to stay here by various kinds of visa fraud: sham marriages, falsely claimed refugee status, etc.
Second of all, one doesn't just live in this country without documentation. These people are not undocumented at all. They are committing identity theft on a grand scale.
My values and culture includes things like "no corruption" and "speak English" and "cheer for the American team". Somebody who arrives here speaking Icelandic is forced to learn English (or Spanish I suppose!) while somebody who speaks Spanish can get by forever without bothering.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday August 24 2018, @06:23AM (12 children)
You are aware that the USA has no official language, right?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:35AM
You are aware that culture exists in the absence of (or even despite) "official" declarations, right? Look at them goalposts go...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:24PM (10 children)
And, which part of "assimilation" did you gloss over, so that you could pull out a not very relevant fact?
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @02:46PM (9 children)
There's absolutely zero indication that recent immigrants are assimilating any slower than earlier immigrants. It generally takes about 2-3 generations to go from "We're trying to live a lot like the old country, but in America" to "We're English-speaking Americans who may have some family recipes from the old country and occasionally come out for whatever holiday has been deemed part of our ethnic heritage (e.g. St Patrick's Day)". The only difference between recent immigrants from Latin America when it comes to assimilation and, say, your family, is that they immigrated more recently, so they're not as far along in that process.
There are a couple of exceptions to that rule though, immigrants who without question refused to assimilate and instead sought to destroy and dominate the Americans rather than become part of America. Those were the Spanish that arrived in the southwest in the 1500's, and the English that arrived on the east coast in the early 1600's. That second group in particular never even made a serious attempt to learn Algonquin or Powhatan, and insisted on keeping their strange religious ideas and family structures that were completely foreign to the US.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:07PM
Bad examples. A great example would be TEXANS.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:44PM (7 children)
So, you recognize that neither the English nor the Spanish are typical "immigrants" - but you still deny that "Latinos" might be invaders?
BTW, you kinda lost your thread in the last part of the last sentence. You meant "foreign to the Americas". "Foreign to the US." is demonstrably false.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:19PM (6 children)
Foreign to the land that is currently the US, in case that wasn't clear.
As for recent Latin American immigrants, the folks most likely to come to the US are darker-skinned folks who are descended from the people that were living in Central America before the Spanish showed up, who've already adapted once to another culture because they're speaking Spanish rather than Aztec or other native languages. So even if you believe in genetic predisposition to behavior in racial groups (a belief which forms a core part of fascist ideology both historically and today, I might add), you're talking about people descended not from invaders but the invaded.
The Spanish I was referring to were the folks that took over what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas by force of arms, and built towns and Catholic missions all over the place - why do you think the major cities are named for Spanish-language versions of saints? Those places are part of the US because the US won a war against Mexico in the 1840's, which makes the English-speaking Americans at least as much invaders as any Spanish-speakers in the area.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24PM (4 children)
And, I'll point out that the Spanish were largely conquered by Muslims a little earlier in their history. It was those conquered Spaniards who conquered the Americas. Fine example you're painting. Those conquered Central and South Americans are now coming here to get revenge, just as the Spaniards did a few hundred years ago!
And, all the while, I steadfastly maintain that WE, that is, modern day AMERICANS, should be barring the way of the invaders.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @05:10PM (3 children)
The big flaw in your reasoning is "people A coming to place where people B are currently living" always equals an invasion, rather than new folks in your neighborhood. It's an impulse that goes as far back as the Know-Nothing Party, but still hasn't been shown to be true.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:06AM (2 children)
And, how are the Neanderthal and the Denisovans doing in Europe today? I think they kinda got invaded by those modern man types.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday August 26 2018, @11:37AM (1 child)
You're probably descended from them.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 26 2018, @12:18PM
Most Euros have some Neanderthal blood, remember? Not so much the Denisovans. The Innuit, Eskimo, and Aleut are what is left of them. The one feature that sets them apart from all the rest of us, is the layer of fat under their skin, that insulates them from the cold. Otherwise, they are hardly distinguishable from other Native Americans, and/or Pacific islanders.
http://discovermagazine.com/2016/dec/meet-the-denisovans [discovermagazine.com]
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:34PM
and how do you know that the mongoloids that inhabited mexico didn't invade and kill the real indigenous peoples of mexico many years before? people like to assume (through indoctrination) that these obvious mongoloids are the poor victims of evil whitey, but their is (hidden) evidence that whitey was here back in the day too. maybe even before the mongoloids that make up the "natives" of the americas. it's a "big mystery" how these advanced central american civilizations went to ruin, but that's only because people choose to assume these simple people engineered the advanced civ to begin with. their own origin stories are said to tell a different tale.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:31AM (5 children)
There are 3 - 5 million illegal immigrants here from Europe who have overstayed their visas or otherwise blended into our society. These are not people taking jobs picking crops, washing dishes or mowing lawns. They are taking good paying, skilled labor jobs away from Americans. These are the people who endanger the American middle class. They should be the first to go.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:37PM
Holy fuck, you know fuck all about immigrants. Such idiotic dribble.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:34PM (3 children)
I'm not going to argue your "facts". I will offer you my own. When Bill Clinton was in office, it was estimated that there were 20 million illegals in this country. When Bush was in office, that number didn't change - still 20 million - DESPITE the fact that some estimates said a couple thousand were coming in DAILY! When Obama was in office, we were still told 20 million. With Trump in office, we're still being told 20 million. OBVIOUSLY NO ONE IN GOVERNMENT OR MSM CAN COUNT WORTH A DAMN!!
Some of you are quite outspoken in your opinion that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. But, FFS, I can add 20 million to a million here, a million there, a couple more million somewhere else - and come up with fifty fucking million, and more.
So - uhhhhhmmmmm - how important are your 3 to 5 million illegal Euro invaders, compared to 50 million Mexicans?
Now, allow me to point out here - I have not dismissed your ~4 million illegal Euros. I won't defend them. They broke the law? Catch them, prosecute them, and deport their Euro asses - their WHITE Euro asses. Go for it, you have my full support.
Just don't try to distract attention away from our porous southern border, and 50 million invaders.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (2 children)
So how many illegal immigrants do you think are in the USA now? 100M? 150M?
Perhaps you are an illegal immigrant and you just don't know it?
It's not like immigrants (legal and illegal) die or return to their home countries. Oh, wait. They do!
I still remember when the USA would not deport someone wanted for terrorism charges in Northern Ireland by the UK. Not only an illegal immigrant, but an actual terrorist. But, yeah, there is no racism involved in the way USA enforces its immigration policies and laws.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:37PM (1 child)
I used fifty million above - that's what I think it is. But, the whole point of this little exercise, is that NO ONE KNOWS! The talking heads have been stuck on that 20 million number for more than 30 years now. It is an established talking point.
Where else have we seen an established talking point that never changes, despite the fact that it MUST CHANGE?!?!
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/ [arstechnica.com]
Point is - if those numbers don't fluctuate, then THEY ARE BOGUS!
I'm tired of beign lied to. Someone, somewhere, arrived at twenty million as a "comfortable", or "acceptable" figure. And, it hasn't changed in thirty freaking years. We're simply not supposed to notice the flood, then the trickle, then the flood again, then the trickle that continues to flow. None of us are supposed to be able to add things up, to discover the claims are all bogus.
As for your Irish terrorists - they aren't current events. Sorry, they're just a distraction here.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @05:24PM
How many people do you think cross the border illegally every day? 1000?
Let's run with that. That's 365,000 border crossings per year.
What's the average time an illegal spends in the USA? Some are quickly caught, so their time is effectively zero. For others, let's assume an average age at which they cross is 30. Average lifetime is ~70 years, so they spend an average of 40 years in the USA. Note that this is a huge over-estimate, because people choose to leave the USA, or are deported. Others become legal citizens.
Out of that 20M, with an average life of 70 years, 500,000 die every year. That's more than the number I used for new entrants, so at 1000/day, the number of illegals would be dropping.
So, let me agree that the 20M is wrong, but it is actually an overestimate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @11:16AM
Heaps of open source software without documentation leave well enough.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:15PM
We ought to clear this up:
There are 2 hot questions in this immigration debate.
1. Are immigrants (esp. illegal ones) dangerous?
2. Should we continue to not enforce immigration law, i.e., let everyone sneak in and stay here?
Many commenters are conflating the 2 issues.
In my posts, I addressed #1 for Hispanics. Not dangerous, hard working, decent people.
My opinion for #2 is that it has been harmful to ignore basic immigration law. Ignoring the law is bad policy for all sorts of reasons.
(Score: 3, Redundant) by SanityCheck on Friday August 24 2018, @11:21AM (15 children)
If they are so great, why don't they make their countries great?
Or is it they only work hard now because there is something in it for them, and their spawn will be just as useless as all the people back in their country.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:16PM (6 children)
This is very unfair.
Do you think it's a piece of cake to turn around a country with hundreds of years of history and culture? It also takes money and power to do that.
Tell me, are you mad at West Virginians who leave the holler for another state to make a living and that send money back to the relatives who stayed? The Hispanic immigrants are just doing the same thing. Poverty and violence suck.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:37PM (5 children)
Fuck unfair. Stop whining, stop making excuses, and get the job done.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (4 children)
Actually, those immigrants ARE getting the job done--it's just not the job you want them to do.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:39PM (3 children)
Correct. I don't want them working as tools to undermine the US economy.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:55PM (1 child)
You need to direct your anger at those who made and continued to make this possible: the businessmen and the politicians.
Why get mad at the immigrants? I would probably do the same in their shoes.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @04:14PM
Let me understand this. I can be justifiably angry at the businessmen, AND the politicians, AND the illegal aliens, all at the same time. But, my anger is misdirected?
I am angry with every single congress since about 1950. When the US did it's Operation Wetback, there was no followup. There were promises THEN of immigration reform. Not one congress has actually addressed immigration reform. Each and every congress for the entire length of my life has FAILED to do it's job.
I have enough anger to go around, so don't sweat that I might waste some of it on the illegals who are actually breaking the laws of the land.
“Take me to the Brig. I want to see the “real Marines”. – Major General Chesty Puller, USMC
(Score: 3, Informative) by bob_super on Friday August 24 2018, @07:04PM
Their cheap labor helps the US economy.
The US citizens ? Maybe not quite as much. But many people profit from cheap hands, and that slows down the outsourcing, saving whole towns in the process.
Shades of dark grey...
I'm pretty sure most Latin America immigrants would really love to see the US stop using drugs and actively undermining any socialist-leaning government. That won't solve all of their problems, but it would dramatically reduce the numbers heading north.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:22PM
It's always a gamble as to how the next generation turns out.
If they are born in the US, they are automatically citizens, so they can access all services, join the military (which many do), and attend college.
They will speak and write English well too.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @02:57PM
Because it only takes a small number of assholes in a country to make it terrible. Think Trump, Koch Brothers, etc.. Or if you don't like that, how many Assads or Hitlers does it take to make a country an objectively bad place to live?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @03:06PM (5 children)
There's a serious answer to your rhetorical question: When they've tried to do that, the US had made sure they fail. As General Smedley Butler, USMC, explained later in his life:
"I spent 33 years and four months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force -the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to a major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914, I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. During those years I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotion. Looking back on it, I feel I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents."
The US has both historically and recently made things abundantly clear to the people of Latin America: If you elect the "wrong" people that are trying to make life good for their citizens than international business interests, we'll make sure that things get much worse for your country. Common US tactics for making things get much worse include but are not limited to: Military coups, death squads, starting civil wars, training torturers, and military invasions.
Look into the history of these countries and you'll see that all of those have happened in most of those countries many many times. And that's why those countries are, in the words of the POTUS, "shithole countries".
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:45PM (4 children)
While your comment is true, I would say that sort of behavior from the US hasn't happened since 1990.
Those happened during the US era of "colonialism" and the Cold War.
Since 1990 we have been in the era of "globalism" without US hegemony.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:58PM
Correction: "Imperialist" is a less confusing term than "colonial".
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:07PM (2 children)
Since 1990, the US has:
- Forced Haiti to change its government, twice (in 1995, and 2004)
- Fought in the now-sorta-finished civil war in Columbia
- Backed Mexico's government against the Zapatista Rebellion against NAFTA in 1994
- Backed and quite possibly were directly involved in the 2004 coup attempt against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela
- Backed an attempted coup against Rafael Correa in Ecuador in 2010
- Been part of organizing the ouster of Dilma Rousseff in Brazil before her term was up
And that's just some of the stuff we know about. More recently, the US government has been deafeningly silent about hundreds of people being rounded up and disappeared in Nicaragua over the last few months.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:59PM (1 child)
Let me clarify then and say, "The worst is over."
;-)
I don't agree with some of your examples because those were where the US extended aid to a govt in putting down a guerrilla war.
I don't think too many Colombians for example had a soft spot for the FARC in the past 20 yrs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:38AM
Those same Colombians might not appreciate the US adding fuel - or carcinogenic herbicides - to the mix.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:31PM (1 child)
No, they are Catholic. That is one reason why Christians have no solidarity with them. Ask any Christian. Catholics are not Christian, they will tell you, and Catholics are devil worshipers and idolaters who are going to hell.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:52PM
This is not the thought at the church I go to.
Every church does things in the way it believes is best (how could it not?), but many churches also have the humility to know there is more than one way to get there. Our understanding is not perfect. The differences are not enough for one to make it to heaven and another not.
BTW, I have found very committed Catholics to believe Protestants are fake Christians--they don't know what they are doing and have perverted Church teaching. I think you will find any rabid follower in any religion thinks this way.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @06:11AM
Or to import the vegetables and fruit from Mexico and other countries.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by archfeld on Friday August 24 2018, @05:53AM (2 children)
It is hard dirty work, and anyone who claims it is unskilled labor is a fool. They pay the farm workers here in the Yuma area upwards of $20.00/hour to harvest lettuce, cabbage, dates, citrus and pick cotton. In the central valley a skilled berry picker can make even more. They are paid by the pound or container full and if you are good you can make a living just during the harvest season and then go back to Mexico and live a decent life not working for the rest of the year. My grand parents used to pick cotton and they have nothing but respect for the field workers because they KNOW what a job it is.
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:57AM
I've done farm harvests and did fruit picking on sabbatical in my younger years, the failure here is that the students were lazy. You cannot make a success of your life if you've never experienced hard work or have some appreciation of how your food gets onto your table. If we moved to a system of like for like labor, most city dwellers would starve within a month.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:48PM
Farmer here.
Yea, and amen.
The good field workers turn up their noses at the proverbial macjobs, because they know that they can make way more by working hard for a shorter part of the year, and hitting something else the rest of the time - or relaxing with their families.
I have had many city folks on my farm volunteering for one thing or another. More than once I have been sincerely thanked for being a farmer because they don't want to do it, once they've experienced it.
But they sure like to eat.
We could double wages, and what would happen? The jobs would disappear, the roles would be automated (with reduced quality until the manufacturers really finetune their game), and who has the money to add that capital investment on top of their farm mortgages and equipment loans? Only big agribusiness.
Big green loves to push the poor farmworker story because it brings them one step nearer to pushing more of the small guys out, and snapping up their land and kit at firesale prices. Between that and estate taxes, continuity in US farming depends upon companies large enough for the government to efficiently sockpuppet.
It's very hard to look at this and not see a move to nationalise agriculture by stealth.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by wisnoskij on Friday August 24 2018, @01:31PM
Yes, and in the real world what you mean is that due to runaway success and increases in standard of living and human rights laws it is now simply uneconomical to grow food America and it all must start being imported until the standard of living reduces far enough for people to be interesting in working for a paycheck again.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 24 2018, @06:12PM
Heresy. American employers are willing to do anything to recruit and retain talent -- except pay a decent amount.
That's why it's for immigrants. Immigrants will do a job no American is willing to do. That's why all of Trump's wives are immigrants.
Ugh, . . . you could never be a manager, executive, politician or lobbyist. :-)
Q. How much did Santa's sled cost?
A. Nothing. It was on the house.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Friday August 24 2018, @05:10AM (20 children)
Steve Jobs was put up for adoption, you can read about it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Background [wikipedia.org]
https://wccftech.com/steve-jobs-biological-father-regrets-adoption/ [wccftech.com]
You can decide whether this was a good or bad example.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:00AM (18 children)
That means you've got to learn the language, learn the local culture, learn the way people here dress and interaction, etc.
We want future Americans, not balkanized foreigner invaders grown on taxpayer money. This is especially true of Islamic foreigners, among whom there exists a very real dogma of global domination over the non-believers by any means necessary.
Do you want alternative opinions or NOT????
Disagreeing by downmodding just means you lose automatically.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Friday August 24 2018, @07:09AM (5 children)
There's a specific number they have to hire.
Canada has this too. I looked into it a while back - I could go back to Canada to stay if I hired fifteen Canadians.
I don't think there's any particular requirement they be highly paid. It would cost a whole lot less to hire fifteen burger flippers to staff a restaurant than it would to hire ten coders, a couple project managers, SQA, product managers and the like.
I think it was Ivanka Trump got some well-deserved crap for a presentation in Asia in which she explained to some rich folk that they could come in live in the US by hiring some people who already had really good jobs.
That's really not why this kind of visa exists but I really don't think there's a requirement to hire low-income people.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @07:34AM (2 children)
Sure, no new jobs are being created, but a new competitor is being created, which helps the consumer.
Sure, those jobs aren't paying particularly well, but that wealthy person is now going to be spending his resources in this country rather than that country.
As said before: Immigration is just find and dandy, as long as the immigrant is paying is own way.
You have to choose:
Goddamn it. Fuck this stupid website. Time to open Tor.
You have to choose:
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:36AM
Tough decision, but I choose to downmod you.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @09:13AM
Modern would-be "socialists" don't understand mutual exclusivity or wealth creation at all. They've not arrived at their political position via any process other than parroting the emotional pandering of other dangerous idiots.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:21PM
Sure, no new jobs are being created, but a new competitor is being created, which helps the consumer.
Sure, those jobs aren't paying particularly well, but that wealthy person is now going to be spending his resources in this country rather than that country.
As said before: Immigration is just find and dandy, as long as the immigrant is paying is own way.
You have to choose:
Goddamn it. Fuck this stupid website. Time to open Tor.
You have to choose:
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday August 24 2018, @11:36PM
I bet they'll put that in the Blu-ray deleted scenes [imdb.com].
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:34AM
Awww, snowflake loser says "what"?
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @03:02PM (1 child)
Yes, those people who came from Germany a century or more ago should have learned English immediately and not spoken German for 3 generations.
The USA was built by a lot of people who didn't speak English. You are benefiting from the work that those non-English speakers did and do now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:42PM
So, what could your point possibly be?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:40PM (8 children)
This makes them completely different from, say, Christian Dominionists like Vice-President Mike Pence, among whom there exists a very real dogma of global domination over the non-believers by any means necessary. And yet I don't hear you calling for their ouster, even though they're at least as dangerous.
Also, I'm pretty sure you've never met any of those Islamic foreigners. Because I do know some of them, and they're basically just regular guys who may decide not to drink with you because of their religion but are otherwise completely ordinary. Heck, I'm pretty sure you've never been to Dearborn, MI either, which is just about the only place in America where Islam is the majority religion, and yet there are still thousands of infidels there going about their business without any problem whatsoever. In short, you aren't responding to actual Muslim immigrants, you're responding to propaganda put out by, among other people, the Christian Dominionists I mentioned just a little while ago.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:44PM (7 children)
I've studied both Christianity and Islam, and you know what? Islam is scary as fuck compared to Christianity.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @06:32PM (6 children)
It all depends on which form of Islam, and which form of Christianity.
Some forms of Islam:
Sufis? Not scary at all, they mostly just want to sit around doing mystical stuff and writing poetry.
Wahabists? Very scary, those are the guys that are responsible for ISIS, Al Qaida, and most of the other Muslim terrorist efforts in recent decades. And yet for some reason the US is allied with the Wahabist Saudis, a move that I still don't understand outside of personal business relationships between the Bush and ibn Saud families.
Kurds? Not scary at all to westerners, and indeed they've been allies of the US for a long time, and were doing a lot of the fighting against ISIS which should give them some kind of credit.
Mainstream Shias? Not very scary unless you're Israeli or Sunni. The Israeli thing has more to do with political stuff than religious stuff, namely that Israel took their friends' land. A lot of these guys were involved in fighting ISIS as well. The Sunni-Shia feud has of course been raging for centuries.
Mainstream Sunnis? Also not very scary unless you're Israeli or Shia, for mostly the same reasons.
Some forms of Christianity:
Quakers? These guys are pacifists, so at worst harmless.
Dominionists? Very scary, those are the guys that are trying to bring about the apocalypse on purpose and hasten the Second Coming. Their influence on the US government is one of the reasons that the US has decided that Israel's fight to take land from the mainstream Sunnis and Shias is the US's fight too.
Anglicans? Not scary at all, unless you're Irish. I don't think I need to educate you as to the history of why.
Mainstream Catholics? Not very scary unless you're an altar boy.
Mainstream Protestants (Methodists, Lutherans, etc)? Also not very scary.
It's not the religious belief system that really makes the difference, it's the flip where you decide "We disagree with those people, so let's go kill them!" As soon as you've decided that's the solution to your problems, you're capable of atrocity. And of course there's plenty of atrocity that's been committed both by Muslims and Christians and atheists over the years.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @07:11PM
"And yet for some reason the US is allied with the Wahabist Saudis, a move that I still don't understand outside of personal business relationships between the Bush and ibn Saud families."
uhh, this is what allows the US and Israel to do what it wants to do?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @07:38PM (4 children)
and burning people alive, and taking sex slaves. And, they're doing this on a geopolitical level; we're not talking about some weirdo cult outside Seattle. Sorry, bud, but Christian wackos are not in the same league, and I can't understand why you insist on pretending that they are.
If you look back through history, you can see that Islam was not only very expansionist, but was the first aggressor, with the Christian Crusades being a retaliation for centuries of Islamic warring and European enslavement; and, while Christianity has moved beyond Christendom, Islam is still very much a totalitarian political system—it is an entire blueprint for society, not just a reason to sing songs on Sunday.
Yeah, you can find very nice Muslims, and you can find very vile Christians. So what?
Christianity poses ZERO threat to civilization, and has arguably been a driving force behind the development of the Enlightenment, which gave birth to the modern world. Why? Because mainstream Christianity has always demanded faith based on reason—it has always stated that the world is rational because God is rational, and the best way to honor God is to try to understand his work, and built atop it; that's why even early Catholic doctrine was steeped in logical argumentation, not based on the words of even a prophet, but rather on the works of a pre-Christian pagan, Aristotle, who was viewed by Christians as being THE Philosopher. In contrast, Islam demands absolute, unquestioning submission to "God", and the ideas of a non-believer are either suspect as a rule, or only useful tools insofar as they help spread Islam.
It's the way it is, man. Islam is no friend of the West. It's just not. That's why Christianity and the West grew together, not Islam and the West. You're playing with dangerous things.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @09:02PM (3 children)
My point of criticism is this: No matter what label you slap on it, any time you get into the mindset of "We're the Good Guys, they're the Bad Guys, and we must destroy them using whatever means available, period, end of discussion", bad things start to happen. If your reaction to "We recently killed a busload of Muslim kids in Yemen" is "One busload down, thousands more to go", then you have exactly the same tendencies as the kinds of people that flew planes into the World Trade Center. And if you think Christians are incapable of this kind of thinking, think again. Jews are also entirely capable of thinking this way, as are pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, and Voudoun believers, because this is a universal human phenomenon. The moment you think "People like *me* couldn't do anything this terrible", that's exactly when they'll prove you wrong.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @09:26PM (2 children)
Why was that busload of kids being bombed?
There is a geopolitical war going on. This is no joke; this is not mere bigotry. The inherent tension between Islam and the West is at the core of it all; Islam is not compatible with the West—it has been an adversary since its very inception, and it has not evolved alongside all the values you hold dear as a Westerner. This is very serious.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @11:53PM (1 child)
There's a civil war going on in Yemen and has been for almost a decade, and the Muslims who have the support of the US and Saudis are fighting the Muslims who have the support of the Iranians. The Saudis were apparently responsible for targeting said busload of kids, and have provided no official explanation for why they were hit. This all has very little to do with your "clash of civilizations" way of thinking and everything to do with making sure the
spiceoil flows the way the US wants it to.And your reaction highlights perfectly what I'm on about: If I had told you just "Somebody bombed a busload of kids", most people's reaction is along the lines of "That's terrible! Who would do such a thing?" And if I had told you that somebody from Yemen had blown up an American bus full of kids, you'd probably be thinking something along the lines of "Those monsters! Kill them all!" But since it's "Our" side bombing a busload of "Their" kids, all of a sudden it's "There's gotta be some sort of justification for it". It's the same act in all 3 versions, where somebody engages in violence kills a bunch of kids, but your reaction changes depending on which kids and who pulled the trigger. And that demonstrates how your own group identification is warping your sense of morality. This is exactly the human tendency that murderous organizations exploit to get otherwise ordinary people interested in slaughtering other people.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25 2018, @03:12AM
You see, I come from the civilized world, where it is understood that a busload of kids getting bombed is a terrible thing, and thus there's no reason to virtue signal by saying so explicitly.
The reason those kids got bombed is because of Islam.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:42PM
Did you ever really LOOK AT Steve Jobs? I'd have put him up for adoption too! "No, honey, we're not keeping this one! We'll try again next year. You want some HUMAN children, don't you?"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by wisnoskij on Friday August 24 2018, @01:48PM (5 children)
America did not fall into ruin when we freed the slaves, it will survive.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 24 2018, @06:17PM (4 children)
Slaves was item 2. There is a reason America didn't fall into ruin when we freed the slaves . . . Item 3 immigrants.
You fail to mention item 4 . . . who will do the job if we don't have immigrants? Are American employers going to pay Americans an actual fair, let alone a livable wage to do what was done by servants, slaves and immigrants? Are we going to be willing to pay more at the supermarket and restaurant?
Q. How much did Santa's sled cost?
A. Nothing. It was on the house.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @07:50PM (2 children)
We may have to. But the cost increase will drive automation and tool development. Just like it has in every other industry where they were forced to pay a living wage.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 24 2018, @09:29PM (1 child)
I'm all for automation and robots putting people out of work.
Now, what we do with all the people whose jobs are replaced by machines?
I'm saying this problem is insurmountable, nor that we shouldn't have more robots. But it is a problem we need to solve. One idea I heard is a "robot tax". Like everything, any idea put forth is going to have pros and cons creating arguments.
Just sayin'
Q. How much did Santa's sled cost?
A. Nothing. It was on the house.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 24 2018, @09:30PM
Typo: I'm NOT saying this problem is insurmountable.
Q. How much did Santa's sled cost?
A. Nothing. It was on the house.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by wisnoskij on Friday August 24 2018, @07:54PM
First off. Their is a long and well documented history of discrimination. While I cannot simply state, "America is ready and willing to harvest its own food 100% by itself" we know for a fact that American agricultural workers have been covertly harrased and prosecuted for a long time. Change that, and put projects that encourage people to do farm work instead of the constant ridicule and denigration of the practice and I know we would do orders of magnitude better than any studies would predict.
But even then, slavery can be a rather efficient beast. Working conditions probably would need to improve to some level that would be considered not a human rights violation. And prices increased accordingly, luckily American food is about 1% the cost the global average. if it increased in cost 2 fold it would still be a miniscule percentage of the total expenses. You also have to remember that the Food Cost Percentage is a very small percentage of the final purchase price, and regardless of if the farmer sells his crop for 30 cents a lb or 50 cents a lb the consumer is paying $10 a lb, so the difference is hardly noticeable.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:08PM (7 children)
I've been on both sides of this.
As a teenager I did some of these "jobs no one wants to do", including harvesting fruit, skinning mink, processing meat etc.
I worked side by side with the LATAM migrants and I found them to be exceptionally hard working.
This was during the early 1990s and I was paid minimum wage for these jobs which was ~$5.00 at the time. I could have gotten a job flipping burgers, but my parents wanted me to have a "bust yer ass to feed yer mouth" work ethic, and it worked.
During the summer I was 15 years old I went from just starting out, to being in charge of a team of 50 pickers.
This work is physically demanding and the workers aren't treated well at all. But why do they do it?
It's because you're not seeing the skilled workers come across, you're seeing the unskilled workers.
They can work in Mexico and earn the equivalent of $5.00 per day or they can earn it per hour here.
I now live in Mexico as an ex-pat. Because I speak American English and have a VPN that shows a USA IP address and live close enough to an airport to see clients quickly; I'm able to earn about the same as I would in the USA (I earn around $150k and I'm the sole wage earner in our family), but I live A LOT better than I would if I lived in the USA.
If I were unable to pretend to be in the USA, my ability to charge appropriately for my services would drop off dramatically. It's amazing how much a difference the flag on the side of you name makes in people's perception of who you are.
(I've had this happen before, didn't log in with a VPN and the service flagged me as foreign then cut my wages, I told them to piss off and had to send them my passport to prove I'm really American)
Anyone that thinks Mexico is a shit hole country, doesn't really know Mexico. It would be like looking at Detroit and calling the entire USA a shit hole country.
Skilled labor here in Mexico, such as computer programmers and sysadmins pay about a third to half what they do in the USA. The cost of living is dramatically reduced though. A person with a $25,000 USD annual income can live extremely comfortably in a nice neighborhood. There are beach front homes that start at $75,000 USD and are quite nice. Contrary to popular belief (even amongst Mexicans), you are much safer in Mexico than the USA. The per capita violent crime rate is lower in Tijuana than it is in San Diego and Mexico City supposedly the deadliest city in Mexico, has a lower incidence of violence than Chicago.
The unskilled labor and probably half the problems you see are coming from the public education system here. School is only compulsory until age 12. After which the parents have to pay for the child to attend school. Many parents are just now getting to the point where they can afford a Jr High and up to High School education for one of their children, but these schools can charge the equivalent of 4-6 months salary per child.
As a result, the educational opportunities are greatly reduced, thus increasing the supply of unskilled labor and putting a real pinch on skilled labor.
For someone to get an education beyond 6th grade, they really have to be dedicated to the ideal of an education and they have to pay for it, so they value it far more.
There is a saving grace though. Most families here have some sort of "family business". There is a strong tradition of entrepreneurship and parents get the kids in on it early.
This allows the children to experience the ups and downs of running a business, as well as the financial and logistics aspects.
These people put enormous effort into their family business, they might have one or two extended family members who cross to the USA on easy money dreams, but for the most part, the entire family is focused on improving the local community.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:03PM (6 children)
Mexico has developed massively since NAFTA.
I find that since then, it is almost unrecognizable to me (for the better).
Still, I think you are really downplaying the violence. It has gotten much, much worse over the past 20 yrs due to drug cartels. I won't bother listing some of the grisly murders and kidnappings; those are easily Googled. Entire town governments/police in cahoots with the drug gangs, doing killing for them for a cut of the drug $.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:18PM (3 children)
I don't think I'm downplaying it at all. These events make the news, because they're notable and newsworthy.
One or two people are killed each week in larger cities and towns no matter where you are.
I lived in Salt Lake City for years and nearly took a bullet from drive bys on two occasions.
Gang bangers shoot a cop in Mexico, it's national news and even makes the international news.
Gang bangers get in a shoot out with the cops in South Central L.A. and it's just a day ending in y. It might make local news, but it's unlikely to go any further than that.
Small town corruption in the is probably more prevalent in the USA than here in Mexico.
Alabama just had to pass a law to tell the Sheriffs they can't divert inmate food budgets at the jails to their own personal bank accounts.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/03/alabama-sheriff-uses-jail-food-budget-on-beach-house-legally.html [slate.com]
(report is from March and was catalyst)
Also in Mexico this is illegal...
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/18/15985810/jeff-sessions-civil-asset-forfeiture [vox.com]
One thing about Mexico that isn't in the USA, there really is white privilege here. It's alleged in to exist in the USA, but I never saw it. In Mexico though, racism is public and systemic.
As a white person I get hassled a lot less and am treated with an amount of deference and respect that they don't show to morenos (typical brown mexicans), and god forbid you're a black person, especially a black man.
I had a friend from Chicago visiting me here in a smaller town and he went alone to the tienda for some beer, same tienda I visit every day. Same tienda I had visiting WITH him the day before.
The owners called the cops on him and gave him the third degree, frankly that's the norm here and not the exception. :(
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:23PM (2 children)
Living in Mexico is killing my English skills though. Apologies for the typos.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:09PM (1 child)
No hay de qué.
But as for your remark:
"Also in Mexico this is illegal..."
So that means it doesn't happen, then. ;-)
This is Mexico. You have the criminals and then you have the govt/police and it is sometimes hard to tell them apart. (Apologies to the honest ones.)
I have lived in many Latin American countries, and I must say police corruption in Mexico has always been particularly bad.
The president had to fire entire cities' police forces and replace them with federal forces of his own the problem got so bad.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:11PM
I know the US is not immune to corruption, but everything is a matter of degree.
Overall, I don't think you will find too many who will say that the US is not ahead of Mexico on this.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday August 24 2018, @06:41PM (1 child)
Last year I heard that Mexicans were migrating back to Mexico faster than they were migrating from Mexico, primarily because Mexico has developed massively.
What's more, having a friendly, economically functional country on the southern border (eventually like Canada on the north) is good for US security.
Bowing off NAFTA is likely to undermine this
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:57PM
Try naming something El Presidente Trump *isn't* trying to destroy.
I agree with you. It's an investment not just in economics but also regional stability.