from the if-god-isn't-real-how-come-meat-can-be-cooked? dept.
Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1984
[...] You've just encountered the bane of aspiring pit masters everywhere: the Stall (also known as the Zone or the Plateau), a common phenomenon in low-temperature cooking. What, precisely, causes the stall is a perennial topic of debate among BBQ enthusiasts. Is it a protein called collagen in the meat, which combines with water to convert to gelatin at the 160°F point? Or is it due to the fat rendering, turning lipids to liquid?
Several years ago, Greg Blonder, a Boston College professor, did the experiments and came up with a definitive answer: evaporative cooling. The meat sweats as it cooks, releasing the moisture within, and that moisture evaporates and cools the meat, effectively canceling out the heat from the BBQ. These days, Blonder is the resident science advisor and myth buster at the popular BBQ and grilling site called Amazing Ribs. "I spend a lot of my time settling bar fights, basically," he joked.
Source: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/let-science-be-your-guide-for-the-perfect-labor-day-bbq/
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @05:39AM
Website here:
https://amazingribs.com/ [amazingribs.com]
Forgot to mention in the advert
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 09 2018, @06:14AM (14 children)
It matters little what you have on the barbeque grill - if you have guests, you can probably serve them. You have your handy meat thermometer? Poke that slab of meat, and see how hot it is in the MIDDLE. That's where everyone checks, of course, the middle of the meat, and away from the bone. Still need 20 degrees to be "done"? Hmmmm - but the kids are hungry and cranky, everyone is going to HATE ME if I don't at least feed those little brats. Pull that meat thermometer out an inch. Still not quite done? Ohhh-kay - pull the meat thermometer out just a little more. AHHH-HA! The top inch and a half is done! Start carving, and serve up some food so the little people don't start making everyone miserable!!
Jeez, Louise. Maybe the meat isn't "perfect", but it is safe and healthy to serve if you're careful about cutting it.
You've cut several portions off of one side of that meat now, you're getting close to uncooked meat. What do you do now? Well - turn that slab of meat with the cut side down, and cut some more from the new "top" of the meat. You've got a few more people fed, you're getting closer to uncooked meat again, so turn it 90 degrees, putting more cooked meat on top. Just keep on spinning your meat around, until either you've served everyone, or you're afraid of serving uncooked meat. Better to have a few guests waiting for meat to cook, than to have everyone's day ruined, right?
If things begin to get hairy, with some impatient people making noise, just slice off several portions of raw meat, and spread them across the fire. A piece of meat 1/4" thick cooks MUCH faster than that huge slab you started with!
This isn't exactly rocket science. You only need some heat to seep into the interior of the meat. Evaporation? Yeah, sure, whatever - it can evaporate all it wants, but I can get cooked meat onto people's plates long before the natives begin to riot.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Sunday September 09 2018, @06:26AM (11 children)
Best pulled pork in the world:
Coat with rub of choice. Pressure cook for 70 minutes
Shred, stir in bbq sauce if desired
Seriously, about 3 minutes of prep time.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 09 2018, @06:35AM (3 children)
Yep, pressure cookers are awesome. No evaporation at all! :^)
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Sunday September 09 2018, @06:46AM (2 children)
I've been using them all my life...one of my earliest memories is driving 2 hours to a Sears parts warehouse with my grandmother to buy a new seal replacement on a probably 1940's model.
It's nice to see they are catching on again. I still have the big stove top cooker, but have been using a programmable electric version for about 15 years. No worries about watching it and cleanup is under a minute. Best tasting food, low energy use, fast. What's not to love?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Rich on Sunday September 09 2018, @12:18PM (1 child)
THE pressure cooker for any self respecting space nerd of course is:
https://www.energia.ru/eng/conversion/tnp/catalog/skorovarka_minutka.html [energia.ru]
Honest-to-god advertisement: "Pressure cooker design ensures its long-term safe operation, provided that its Operation Manual requirements are met.". But if any company in the world knows about pressure vessels, it's them. :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @07:36PM
Nice. Where can I get one?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Sunday September 09 2018, @10:23AM (1 child)
I made it a few days ago. 90 minutes of pressure cook instead of 70. Which is still far under the 3-4 hours it would take normally.
The only thing is that you don't get the nice browning action you get with a dutch oven. I guess you could start in pressure cooker, then do 30-60 minutes with lid off in the oven.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:09AM
*90 minutes is with the Instant Pot booklet recipe, which is at a somewhat lower pressure/temperature than 15 PSI/250 degrees F, so it would take longer than a normal stovetop PC.
- t
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday September 09 2018, @10:28AM (1 child)
Also, I never have a prep time of 3 minutes, because I am usually using a large pork shoulder that I have separated into 2 halves, with each cut into small strips, and then frozen. So need to thaw and shave all of it back off if I forgot to let it thaw completely. Then it needs to be browned for a few minutes. I like having the extra surface area and being able to stir the pieces easily.
I guess if I planned it a bit better, didn't freeze, and didn't cut it up into smaller bits, I could get a prep time closer to 3 minutes.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Sunday September 09 2018, @10:36AM
And practice. I'm very lazy. Most of my meals are around 3 minutes prep time.
And I have hungry dogs (redundant) so my cleanup time is about the same :)
(Score: 2) by richtopia on Sunday September 09 2018, @04:27PM (2 children)
I'm currently experimenting with reversing course from my beloved pressure cooker and using Souis-vide [wikipedia.org]. I made fall apart Hawaiian style short ribs that were better than anything I've made traditionally before. They did take 72 hours for cooking, and while sous-vide takes much longer for all dishes than traditional methods I appreciate the very loose targets (eg. 8-12 hours of cooking gives you a four hour window to finish according to your schedule).
Reading the article it discusses people adding liquids back to the pork mid-way. With sous-vide sealing the meat in a plastic bag that would not be an issue. However, if the goal is to remove some of the water during the cooking process then sous-vide may come up short.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @07:41PM (1 child)
I've tried souis-vide with my own arduino controlled hotplate. Maybe I'll try it more in the future, but didn't notice anything earth shattering for the much larger time investment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 10 2018, @04:13AM
The benefits are mainly:
Some of these benefits are more or less shared by other slow and/or low-temperature cooking methods, and they each apply in varying degree (or not at all) to various dishes.
It's just another tool, not magic -- it can be used to good effect for many tasks, but "earth shattering" is unlikely, with the possible exception of a handful of dishes that specifically showcase sous-vide in one way or another.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday September 09 2018, @09:28AM (1 child)
I'm a big fan of brisket, but I've never tried to cook it like that. In a pressure cooker you don't have to dehydrate it to cook it. Once the job's been done that way, you can let it roast and dry a bit if you like.
In terms of stuff to throw on an open grill the day of and expect good results, brisket wouldn't be on my list there. Steaks, chops, and sausages are good for grilling.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:14AM
No one's talking about "grilling" in the sense of high heat open-lid grilling here, I think.
TFA (and I assume GP) is talking about smoking, which can be done on a grill. Or maybe GP is just talking about low-temp grilling without smoke (though why you'd waste that time on a gas grill or whatever is beyond me). Either way, one can slow-cook on a grill with adequate control... And a slow-cooked smoked brisket is a truly amazing thing.
(Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday September 09 2018, @10:55AM (2 children)
Got a system that works like a boss for me.
I generally go 4-5 hours smoking then stuff it in the oven until I get hungry for lunch the next day but leaving it until dinner time won't do anything but make it even more tender. The pork butt I did last weekend got to sit in the oven until 6pm the next day and I ended up using a plastic fork to "pull" it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by chewbacon on Monday September 10 2018, @02:28AM (1 child)
A guy I know does this. There is the argument the meat won’t absorb anymore smoke after just a few hours of a 14+ hour cook. So he will get the smoke flavor in, then toss it in the oven wrapped to finish off. I tend to take the purist route and smoke the entire cool, but I do wrap when it stalls. I can be a purist, but I’m no masochist.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday September 10 2018, @03:32AM
See, I don't want the meat to absorb all the smoke it can. After five hours on a brisket or good sized pork butt, two hours tops on ribs, it starts tasting worse to me not better. I also don't enjoy tasting wood smoke flavored burps all the next day.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:14AM (8 children)
Is there a cut of beef comparable to pork butt/shoulder in price? I can get pork butt for $1.20-$1.50/lb.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:37AM (6 children)
No. Generally beef is going to be pricier, as it is a larger animal that requires more feed per pound of meat produced, etc. to raise.
The comparable cuts of beef to pork butt are mostly chuck (from the same part of the animal). Chuck roasts are frequently sale items where I've lived, and I've seen them for quite cheap (though not as cheap as pork on sale).
The other really cheap cuts of beef tend to be from the round (back of animal), but they will produce a rather dry pulled beef as there's usually nowhere as much fat. But if you like a lot of sauce, you might be able to make it work.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:54AM (5 children)
The only reason to put sauce on BBQ is if it's shitty BBQ. The only exception to this is the Bacon Explosion [bbqaddicts.com]. Putting sauce on BBQ prepared by someone who prides themselves on their BBQ skillz is a good way to make an enemy for life.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday September 09 2018, @12:26PM
I can go either way with pulled pork. Sauce or no sauce. And I've done some interesting stuff with the sauce, like using apple butter, or runny orange "marmalade" + red pepper flakes.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @01:28PM
Bullshit.
Now, if you are referring to the often incredibly shitty "BBQ sauces" at a grocery store then I'll agree, but a well balanced sauce can match perfectly with the smoke, meat, and fat flavors. A bit of acid to "cut" heavily marbled or cuts with big chunks of fat, a little bit of sweetness, some different bitterness (besides the delicious acrid "burnt" flavors), astringency/sharpness from raw garlic (if that's your thing), some smoke flavor, and some spiciness to taste for flavor and effect.
I often go with a heavily modified East Texas style sauce, but it depends on the cut and what is on the side.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday September 09 2018, @03:42PM (2 children)
So I guess you disagree with the huge number of well-known and respected BBQ joints in the South that provide sauces and even mix in sauce before serving??
There are lots of different styles of BBQ. If a relatively small piece of meat is slow-smoked and/or has a nice rub on the outside, I agree that it's often best without sauce if done well.
But if you're pit-roasting a whole hog or large slabs of one, a lot of the interior meat will get no flavor from.any exterior rub or much smoke. It might still taste good, but it will be rather "plain." (Unless you brine the thing for days in advance, the far interior won't even be seasoned by salt.)
I still like such pork plain if I can mix in a few burnt ends for some Mailard reaction flavor and different texture. But if you're just pulling from the interior, I will usually use a little bit of sauce just to give it something.
As with almost everything, stating broad general principles without accounting for differences in individual taste is just being an ass. Then again, you're very skilled at being an ass.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday September 09 2018, @03:43PM
(Maillard.. damn autocorrect.)
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday September 09 2018, @04:13PM
Once I learned to make BBQ much better than theirs, absolutely.
It's nice to have one's skills appreciated.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 10 2018, @02:43AM
Mmm cheap pork.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vqIGTKuQE [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:16AM (1 child)
Perfect every time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMyHYDmToUA [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @01:37PM
Chef steps normally knows what they're doing, but 62.8C for 62hrs is too hot (medium-well) for too long (too much texture loss). Medium rare would be about 57C and around 50hrs would be enough to cut the meat with a fork, but still preserve some fiber structure. At 62.8, I probably wouldn't go over 24hrs because it'd loose too much structure and go mushy.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday September 09 2018, @11:29AM
I remember reading this guy's experiment post about the "stall" years ago. It's good science and all, though I have to admit being a bit baffled as to why anyone was surprised by the results... Or why anyone would think collagen breakdown or fat rendering would take anywhere near as much energy as evaporative cooling.
It's pretty well-known when meat begins to release a lot of juice. That's why people target "medium rare" for the juicy result. And as you start going above that temp, more and more juice is released from the fibers, and the meat gradually dries out. It happens in steak (or even more noticably in burgers where juices move more readily -- you know that liquid that pools on the top of a burger until you flip? If you've ever played around with an instant read thermometer and a thick burger as it's cooking, you'll notice temperature shifts due to evaporative cooling on the surface). Why would it be any different in brisket? And evaporation (to anyone who knows anything about phase transitions) takes a huge amount of energy.
Anyhow, again kudos to the guy for measuring it. But I don't think it was a huge surprise to anyone who understands basic science of cooking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 09 2018, @04:25PM
This is already known and with a better experimental set-up:
https://modernistcuisine.com/2012/08/barbecue-stall/ [modernistcuisine.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by chewbacon on Monday September 10 2018, @02:34AM
I read this a while back on a smoking forum. Simple: when it stalls, wrap it up. Evaporative cooling issue solved. The meat will only absorb so much smoke and likely won’t absorb anymore at the stall, but you’ll have a tender piece of meat thanks to the wrap.