Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard
Mill Valley joins effort to constrain 5G proliferation
The city of Mill Valley has enacted an urgency ordinance to regulate "small cell" towers amid concerns that cellphone companies want to grow their 5G networks and install new equipment in Marin. "We do intend to do more work and studies to craft a permanent ordinance within the next year," Mill Valley Mayor Stephanie Moulton-Peters said Friday. "The urgency ordinance has standards to limit and prohibit the installations of devices in residential neighborhoods, but there is more that we can do."
The decision came on a unanimous vote by the City Council on Thursday, after residents from across Marin packed the council chambers as part of a campaign urging local officials to block cellphone companies from attempting to build 5G towers in the county. No proposals for 5G towers have been submitted to Mill Valley, staff said.
The issue is that 5G towers, which would allow for faster and higher-capacity video streaming and other transmissions, could exacerbate health symptoms already suspected as a result of exposure to electromagnetic fields, according to the EMF Safety Network, a group advocating to keep communities EMF-free. Those symptoms can include fatigue, headaches, sleep problems, anxiety, heart problems, learning and memory disorders, ringing in the ears and increased cancer risk, according to the EMF Safety Network website.
"What 5G does is it adds another cloud to what we refer to as 'electromagnetic smog' into an environment that is already pretty saturated," said Fairfax resident and activist Valeri Hood. "In Fairfax, what we're doing is asking our council to step up in the way councils have in the past, and just say no to 5G."
Also at HardOCP.
Related Stories
Study of Cellphone Risks Finds 'Some Evidence' of Link to Cancer, at Least in Male Rats
For decades, health experts have struggled to determine whether or not cellphones can cause cancer. On Thursday, a federal agency released the final results of what experts call the world's largest and most costly experiment to look into the question. The study originated in the Clinton administration, cost $30 million and involved some 3,000 rodents.
The experiment, by the National Toxicology Program, found positive but relatively modest evidence that radio waves from some types of cellphones could raise the risk that male rats develop brain cancer. "We believe that the link between radio-frequency radiation and tumors in male rats is real," John Bucher, a senior scientist at the National Toxicology Program, said in a statement.
But he cautioned that the exposure levels and durations were far greater than what people typically encounter, and thus cannot "be compared directly to the exposure that humans experience." Moreover, the rat study examined the effects of a radio frequency associated with an early generation of cellphone technology, one that fell out of routine use years ago. Any concerns arising from the study thus would seem to apply mainly to early adopters who used those bygone devices, not to users of current models.
[...] The rats were exposed to radiation at a frequency of 900 megahertz — typical of the second generation of cellphones that prevailed in the 1990s, when the study was first conceived. Current cellphones represent a fourth generation, known as 4G, and 5G phones are expected to debut around 2020. They employ much higher frequencies, and these radio waves are far less successful at penetrating the bodies of humans and rats, scientists say.
Previously: Major Cell Phone Radiation Study Reignites Cancer Questions
First Clear Evidence Cell Phone Radiation Can Cause Cancer In Rats
Related: Dim-Bulb Politician Wants Warning on Cell Phones
California Issues Warning Over Cellphones; Study Links Non-Ionizing Radiation to Miscarriage
Mill Valley, California Blocks 5G Over Health Concerns
(Score: 1) by exaeta on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:09PM (21 children)
Is there any evidence of these harms?
The Government is a Bird
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:11PM
California Issues Warning Over Cellphones; Study Links Non-Ionizing Radiation to Miscarriage [soylentnews.org]
First Clear Evidence Cell Phone Radiation Can Cause Cancer In Rats [soylentnews.org]
(for some definitions of "evidence")
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:14PM (12 children)
Can't we just get past this?
Haven't we moved past the need of evidence, facts, reproducible results, and science?
Get with the times. It's 2018 and the world is a different place.
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(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:32PM (11 children)
I would argue that it is best to demand evidence, facts, and scientifically reproducible results showing these systems are safe. Humans have created a new environmental factor, extensive areas blanketed by a variety of EMFs. At least we can safely say these fields aren't an immediate danger, but we have very little long term data on their effects.
Your stance seems to be deploy everything, it'll probably be fine. Some people take the health of their families pretty seriously, and while they may ultimately be wrong it seems pretty arrogant to mock their attempts to keep their community safe.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:51PM (7 children)
Actually, I agree with what you say, but I'm being sarcastic about the current administration not being interested in evidence and facts. Especially when corporate profit is at stake. Strip mine the environment. Allow more pollution. Remove safety requirements. Etc.
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(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:47AM (6 children)
Off topic, but, those safety concerns are driving my freaking NUTS at work. I've spent much of my life in construction. Out in the field, we're safety conscious, but we have to get things done, so we weigh risks, and then get on with the job.
Fokkin idiots I work for now insist that zero accidents is an attainable goal. So - I have a job to do that should take about fifteen minutes. Problem is, I spend those fifteen minutes discussing safety with whoever I'm working with. Then we spend a half hour to an hour getting ready to do the job. Then, we piss away another half hour talking more about the job. Finally, we get a person to turn the freaking wrench, or change a fuse, or swap out a hose, but he's restricted by his electrical hazard suit, or his tie off gear, or can't see through his safety goggles and face shield, so it takes him twice as long. Finally, that fifteen minute task is completed, but now we have to take down all the barricade tape, put away all the personal protective gear, and mop up the excessive sweat pooled beneath the work site. OH SHIT!! THAT EXCESSIVE SWEAT COULD BE HAZARDOUS MATERIAL - GET THE MANUAL!!!! GET MORE PPE!!!!
FFS, one day, I'm just going to say "screw it", and walk off the damned job. None of these assholes have ever had to just get something done.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:15AM (3 children)
Probably cheaper than being sued by the employee who opens the exploding junction box without protection.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:31AM (2 children)
Yeah, well - in the course of "complying" with all those silly safety regs, the company has "educated" me on those exploding junction box hazards. Our hazards are almost exclusively below 2 calories. We only have - uhhhh - six places I think, that exceeds that. Those places range from 30 to 40 calories. If we exercised some common sense, and only had to suit up for those few higher energy hazards, I might not resent it so much.
For the information of those who don't understand, 2 calories means that an arc flash has enough energy to cause sunburn-like injuries within a radius of 18 inches. Keep yourself at arms length, and the worst that can happen to you is sunburnt forearms. Gloves and long sleeved shirts are enough to address that hazard.
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday September 12 2018, @04:16AM (1 child)
"exploding junction box hazards"? Don't you know what circuit breakers are for?
When life isn't going right, go left.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @08:48AM
Fuses are more reliable than breakers. I used to bitch about changing fuses, but I've learned enough to prefer fuses.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:49PM (1 child)
It IS an attainable goal. (Or at least extremely close to zero.) The only question is at what cost? Is it a pyrrhic victory? [wikipedia.org]
It's like bug free software. Or software that is absolutely on schedule.
Let me point out the Space Shuttle avionics software program. (I read an amazing article about this in the very early 2000s) All the developers on this were middle aged, parents, married, station wagons, etc. No rockstar developers. Everything was planned and documented before any code was written. When it came time to write the code, every function was already documented, what parameters it would take, what it would do, etc. In effect the documentation was the code in some sense. All of the algorithms had been worked out. All of the orbital calculations. Navigation. Procedures and contingencies for various events detected.
This software development group had only one product. The Space Shuttle avionics software.
There was a ceremony that had to happen prior to launch. The director had to fly out to somewhere and sign a document that said that the software WOULD work.
There were only 2 bugs in the entire history of the program (up to the date of that article). And they were minor.
Wow! That's Amazing!
Yep. The only thing is that the development and maintenance cost was $35,000.00 per line of code.
This is probably like that zero accidents thing. It's one thing to have a culture of safety. Disney is more safety conscious than any corporation I've seen. But it can be taken to ridiculous levels.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:55PM
I kind of missed my point with the above.
It may be worth it to spend lavishly on safety to save lives (or billions of dollars of equipment!) to prevent loss of vehicle.
But most software development doesn't go to these extremes.
Microsoft has shown us that it is possible to have a culture where customers are the beta testers.
For web developers I would point out the following. ALL web developers have a testing environment. The lucky ones (like me) also have a testing environment that is separate from the production servers. (in case you miss my meaning, the unlucky ones use production as their testing system)
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(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:55PM (1 child)
Then nothing new would be allowed to happen. Can you prove radio waves don't cause harm in any way to living organisms? Howsabout bottled water? Canned tomatoes? A cellar's worth of jarred vegetable harvest?
No, you can't. Remember, under current laws aspirin would be illegal.
My ducks are not in a row. I don't know where some of them are, and I'm pretty sure one of them is a turkey.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:29AM
Nice hyperbole, shows your mental acuity for what it is. Many things are optional, irradiating entire neighborhoods takes away the choice for many people. Besides, my comment was obviously a remake of the OP's.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:52AM
Have you determined via the same approach that your proposed procedures are safe? That is, have you eaten your own dog food?
(Score: 5, Funny) by Dr Spin on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:24PM (1 child)
There is masses of evidence:
The sun radiates in the 5GHz band, and everyone is exposed to the sun at some time in their life, and eventually they die.
Ergo: exposure to 5GHz is fatal.
(See: no congress-critters bribed here)
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:05AM
So, we can expect our illustrious R-eprehensible lawmakers to outlaw the sun, and send anyone benefiting from it to prison for a period not less than 2 years, not more than 10 years? When that doesn't work declare a war on sun, which will work out nice.
I'm waiting for the R-eprehensible party to declare a War on Stupidity. Considering how well the War on Drugs and the War on Poverty have played out, that would actualy be A Good Thing (tm) for the country.
/ did they actually declare war on cancer?
// cuz they've made a ton of progress
/// but I don't remember them actually declaring war on it
My ducks are not in a row. I don't know where some of them are, and I'm pretty sure one of them is a turkey.
(Score: 5, Informative) by archfeld on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:30PM (1 child)
There is some small data about heavy EMF exposure in general, but nothing that I am aware of involving 5G in particular. The people in the Mill Valley area are the epitome of XGener and Millennial Helicopter parents. There is no shortage of wireless and 3G/4G cell phone stuff but 5G BAD! We are constantly exposed to EMF in our natural environment in addition to manmade sources like high power generation and transmission.
http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/index1.html [who.int]
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 3, Interesting) by arslan on Wednesday September 12 2018, @03:19AM
So maybe the solution here for the telcos is to not call it 5G and call it 3.55G. Look, its less than 4G which you already have, so its safe to plunk the antenna! What the speed? That's just theoretical, everyone knows we never get that irl.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday September 12 2018, @05:22PM
There are [nih.gov] lots and lots [cancer.gov] and moderate but balanced [cancer.gov] and LOTS [who.int] of research on radio wave EMF in general that have been negative. The latter two do recognize the limits of what we know and suggest more research is necessary.
Unless one specifically has reason to single out 5G for some reason (which I currently interpret as paranoia), why would we expect any difference because the frequencies changed?
Certainly science has turned up new data which reverses understanding of fields. Science does that. But until science does that why should I believe anything different in the face of all the studies which say EMF is generally harmless? (Plus the little fact that we're bathed in it all the time). This seems the electromagnetic equivalent of bacteriophobia to me. YMMV.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday September 13 2018, @03:30AM (1 child)
Yes, studies have shown a correlation between knowledge of EM radiation and hypersensitivity. Put someone in a room with a router with flashing LEDs and they will feel headaches. Turn off the LEDs and their headache goes away.
Tell them the cell tower is on and they get headaches. Tell them the cell tower is off and they recover.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 1) by exaeta on Thursday September 13 2018, @09:01PM
This very well might be true, but I don't think it's a valid reason to block 5G deployment given that the human body seems able to deal with low levels of radiation. (Radon, anyone?)
That's not to say it is harmless, but with wireless technology the benefits obviously outweigh whatever minor risks that they entail.
The Government is a Bird
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:11PM (13 children)
Shouldn't this be exclusively within the domain of the FCC?
What if every city, county, state, etc thought it could regulate or restrict certain kinds of radio spectrum transmissions?
While a city may want to act to protect safety, it is the government's job to create regulations, taxes, red tape, new branches of government and bureaucracy. The feds can do this on a much more massive scale than any city could ever hope. So leave bureaucracy to those who know how to do it best. There is no problem so big it cannot be solved by adding more government regulation or taxes or both.
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(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:13PM (9 children)
They can do whatever they want. The federal court(s) can sort it out later.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:17PM (8 children)
That answer doesn't really help a company wanting to erect a 5G cellphone tower.
Customers will demand 5G! Because it's better. You can tell because of the 5. It must be better. Customers will know it's better because the TV told them.
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(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:31PM (5 children)
As long as this doesn't become a movement that spreads to many cities, they can just ignore Mill Valley. The 5G rollout will probably take years anyway, focusing on metropolitan areas first, and the base stations will have a short range. So you just ignore the 12 km2 of Mill Valley [wikipedia.org], and probably the surrounding areas as well.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/telecom/wireless/everything-you-need-to-know-about-5g [ieee.org]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:52PM
Maybe you just ignore Mill Valley forever and ever. Do your safety studies. We'll be back to check on your progress in one quarter of a galactic rotation.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:07AM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:58PM (2 children)
It does existing things faster. But often that also means more capacity.
I don't need 10 GB ethernet to my computer. So why does it exist? For the same reason that six lane highways exist in some places. Or the 404 (and I don't mean page not found).
I hear that 5G has poor in building penetration.
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(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday September 13 2018, @01:44AM
https://www.cio.com/article/3226451/networking/5g-a-few-frequency-facts.html [cio.com]
Yes, but improvements in other parts of the spectrum could help. And if you are close to a 5G base station, you can get the promised crazy speeds.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by exaeta on Thursday September 13 2018, @09:07PM
Yes. In general, higher frequency means more bandwidth but lower material penetration*. It's why you can transmit data to/from underground on the lower frequency bands, but you'd be lucky to get a few KiB/s doing so.
* (This is technically not true of very very high frequencies, e.g. gamma rays penetrate better than visible light, but I'm going to assume you're still in the radio bands given that transmitting data via gamma radiation or X-rays might pose issues for the general wellbeing of the population. Basically, the closer EM-radiation frequency becomes to visible light, the poorer the penetration will become.)
The Government is a Bird
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:56AM (1 child)
1) Just get some 5G stickers.
2) Pop them over the 4G stickers you see on cell towers.
3) Get the users to "install special 5G app to get best speeds!" (App merely makes phone display 5G instead of 4G)
4) PROFIT
No missing steps. Winner. Right there.
I'll be happy to take a mere 5% cut of new revenues in this glorious and cunning plan as it is brought to fruition.
*sips coffee*
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:59PM
I hope you patented this.
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(Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:27PM (2 children)
I would think they could. If they don't claim to regulate the EMF spectrum, they can simply deny phone companies permission to build any towers.
"Oh no, you can have all the 5G you want, that's under the FCC's control. Hmm build a tower you say, no no I don't think that fits in with our civic planning scheme. Permission denied"
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:55PM
If a cell phone company (and I can't imagine ever being on their side, but anyway . . .) could prove that was why the city was obstructing their cell towers, that could be a spectacular lawsuit.
If a city were just being obnoxious about not allowing cell towers, then don't install them, and let the people in that area suffer. You may lose customers, but they can't go to any of your competitors for the same service either. So they may have no incentive to leave. After all, it's not just you, but NO provider would be rolling out 5G in such a city.
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(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:30AM
Cities can't do much to regulate Ham Radio operator's antennas, they are under Federal jurisdiction. If the Feds will pull a jurisdiction override for that, seriously doubt the Feds will roll over and let these locals regulate cell towers when there is real money on the table. Money talks and hippies will have to fume. Probably can get a Federal Judge to issue a TRO, it is the 9th Circus, but it won't last past the first appeal since it is pretty settled law.
It is all pointless anyway. The story of RF in the past Century has been reducing power and sliding most activity ever upward in frequency and reducing the typical range of transmission. A few TV stations still belch megawatts to cover entire cities but those are dying off. Broadcast radio is dying. Cell towers are moving closer together as the range of each generation of radio shrinks as part of the ramp up in bandwidth. A cellphone's transmit power is puny and shrinking. The first big bulky luggable cell phones could pump out 3W in the UHF band, the handheld ones dropped to 0.6W max and it just keeps dropping and now generally operate in the microwave bands like WiFi. We now utilize the whole SNR of a chunk of spectrum and spot beam it. The days of ET listening to our transmission is quickly ending, somebody a mile from the intended reception point can't receive it. Literally, the signal is below the noise threshold without extreme antenna systems.
This 5G rollout takes all this up another notch, very short ranges to allow more spectrum reuse, even lower transmit power for better battery life on mobile devices, etc. And the frequency is jacked up another notch as well, at the rate they are going they will be hitting the hard limit and have to stop because it doesn't penetrate things.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:28PM (10 children)
To Mill valley. Idiots, get out of the way of progress, or die.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:42PM (4 children)
To Assholes. Moron, get out of the way of society. I won't wish death upon you, I'll let you earn your own Darwin award.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:56PM (2 children)
I wonder how long it takes to get a Darwin award if you get an apartment next to a 5G tower?
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:59PM
However long it takes for curiosity to get them climbing up to the tower. Getting close to one of those is totally recommended wink
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:05PM
Speaking of towers, here's what my search for 5G tower [google.com] looks like (screenshotted in case there are differences):
https://imgur.com/a/E6MOgvA [imgur.com]
Maybe this movement is bigger than we thought.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:06PM
Die for the town, not the individuals in it. Geesh.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Osamabobama on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:44PM (2 children)
To be fair, they aren't really in the way of progress, but are simply choosing not to participate in it. And the 'dying' part, it should be noted, will apply to the town, not the idiots who live there.
Of course, it can take generations for an obsolete town to finish dying...
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:49PM
Got news for you if you think any city or town within 50 miles of the Bay Area is dying. Not gonna happen barring an economic recession or massive war that will fuck up just about everywhere else along with it.
Way to show solidarity on 9/11
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:09PM
its too bad it had to be explained that i meant the town, not the residents. But thanks for doing it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:31PM (1 child)
^^ Pointless bile from a Soylent regular.
If there are a lot of people like you, no wonder so many don't have friends...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by anubi on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:39AM
Actually, I respect Mill Valley for finding the lifestyle they are comfortable with, and defending it.
I've been doing the same with my technology for years... I resist things I do not understand. All this brohuahua over intellectual property and making it hard for me to understand how my stuff works has me on edge too, and I really hate to buy something I can't verify, and trust it with anything.
So, Mill Valley says "good enough is good enough", well good for them.
I sure was happy enough with a much simpler web design too.
And that's one thing that this good old place shares with Mill Valley. ...
Just because "everyone else" ( according to the pitchmen ) is doing something ( such as adopting irritating scripting technologies ), doesn't mean WE have to do it too.
Mill Valley sounds to me like an ideal place to retire... but I seriously doubt I could afford to live there. Many rich people will stand up to pitchmen, and tell 'em to simply buzz off, as they have plenty of resources already, and aren't easily influenced by pitchmen who act more like street-smart shell-gamers, trying to involve me in their game.
Savings! Savings! Savings! Where's the Savings? Think you know? Place your dollar right here. Step right on up, Folks. Savings!... swish, swish, swish, sorry, it was over there... care to try again? You saw how its done, you are sure to win! Step right on up... place your dollar! ( Also known as "Investment Advice" )
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2, Troll) by Entropy on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:31PM (16 children)
They ban plastic bags, for the environment. Homeless people used to poop in plastic bags, and throw them away. Now hepatitus-infected homeless people poop on the street, and they have more human feces on the street than any other place in the country. Good job, california: Now you can have slow wireless and human feces.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:33PM
Mill Valley [wikipedia.org] is a tiny city. They don't have the homeless problems of LA, San Diego, etc., and they probably don't need much more than 4G to serve their needs.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:47PM (7 children)
So much anger against California. Jealous much? The feces problem is only SF, a small city that removed all public restrooms and hasn't done enough to meet housing demands. It is not a simple problem, something you might understand if your own city was popular enough to even have problems.
Typical shit flinging monkey behavior you're displaying, but hey that is the SN new normal! Libruhl tears amirite boiz? Any of you still think Trump is not a crook, or on your side?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:45PM (6 children)
When a city has a problem with people shitting on the street, it seems to me that is a symptom of a much larger problem.
We really need to reevaluate our priorities if we cannot provide basic necessities like public restrooms.
If we're worried that the homeless will take up residence in the public restrooms (trying so hard not to write "squatting"), then we must give the homeless somewhere to sleep.
If the argument is that the homeless won't use the public restrooms and beds because they're mentally ill, then we must provide treatment.
If we're worried that one city cannot handle the homeless population of the entire USA, then we must implement these policies across the country. If nothing else, think of the jobs providing and maintaining these resources would create.
We have $700 billion dollars allocated for causing death and destruction for just one single year. And it'll be even more next year. It doesn't matter if it's D or R in power. It'll always be more, more, more.
And all the Ds and Rs tell us that there is no money to help people. Money to lock people in cages. Money for mass surveillance. Money to bomb cities on the other side of the planet. Money to militarize our police. No money for things Jesus would do.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:21AM (2 children)
Much of mentally ill is not treatable short of locking people up.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:07AM (1 child)
There is "locking people up", and there is "restricting an irrational person's movement to safe places".
Yes, I'm aware of the horror stories about asylums from the days of my youth. I am afraid that we over reacted to those horror stories, and threw the baby out with the bathwater. The loonies really should be restricted. They should be restricted primarily for their own benefit, and secondarily for the public's benefit.
Round up the loonies, and put them into a pleasant facility, where they will be safe. No medical experiments. They only take meds if they want to. They don't even have to sleep in an assigned bed. Let them sleep outside on the sidewalk if they insist. Or, beside the creek. Allow them to burn hot dogs over an open fire beside the creek. But, don't let them wander off, into traffic, into a school yard, or an industrial area, or whatever. They have to stay at the facility, unless and until they demonstrate that they can properly take care of themselves.
It's a shame that we can't treat the loonies humanely. I guess it's a lot more fun bombing terrists than treating loonies.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:00AM
But then you get all the but my freedoms activists coming out again.
yup. https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html [nytimes.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:02AM (2 children)
I'm definitely not worried enough to do that. Providing and maintaining crazy people isn't my idea of a productive job.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:32AM (1 child)
Well you are a soulless minion of orthodoxy so no one should care what your ideas about productivity are.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:38AM
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:58PM (6 children)
Interestingly, India has made a major effort and investment to get rid of open defecation.
I would think that California would want to do at least as well. Maybe simply have more public toilets like India.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:02PM (2 children)
California as a whole is fine, just SF and probably parts of LA that have real problems. Maybe San Diego? I would say ask EF since he claims to live there, but good luck getting a coherent response.
The public restrooms in SF were closed because they'd get totally disgusting by some asshole people. There really isn't a way around it though, pay the cost of running public restrooms or have shit on the streets. Fuck SF for not maintaining public restrooms, they sure are on top of their parking tickets lulz.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:11AM
I would argue that EF's bigotry is pretty coherent. He pretty much despises everyone, with a little extra care lavished on Jews. His signal doesn't spatter all over the place, by heaping loving praise on anyone. It's just one continuous message of hate, and/or contempt.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by jmorris on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:44AM
You forget the obvious third option, the one everyone used when we had a functioning civilization.
Vagrancy Laws. Seems especially needed in the Bay Area where they want to make laws limiting construction of new housing and demand far exceeds supply. There can't possibly be enough housing for those with the ability to pay, housing the homeless there is a stupid idea and allowing them to roam freely and shit in the streets is about the only idea dumber than trying to. Jail the homeless, After a round or two of being locked up they will go be homeless somewhere else.
It really is simple. An area can only safely support a finite number of people, especially if the voters have made an explicit decision to forbid new construction. Accept the consequences of those facts and the decisions of the voters. There can't be unlimited people there, despite the tech companies continuing to insist on headquartering there, and prices are going to be insane so only the 1% can live there. As to who is going to keep providing services to these Eloi, that is another question the voters there need to think about.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:11PM
I don't think it's fair to blame the homeless for shit-besmirched streets. India reduced their public defecation problem by sending all those H1Bs to California.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:27PM
I thought that's what starbucks was? Or maybe they are just supervised injection sites.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:08AM
It's a mental health problem, not an education or lack of toilet problem.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:56PM (7 children)
In order to keep communities EMF-free, you must first have a community not within the range of an EMF (electromagnetic field).
In general, EMFs dissipate according to the inverse square law, but our proximity to the Earth, to the Sun and to each other means that no communities now exist free of EMF.
Thus, it is not possible to keep any communities that way. That's kind of like a committee to keep communities free of heat. Since no community is at absolute zero, no community can be kept at absolute zero.
In fact, since infrared is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, there's a huge overlap between being at absolute zero and being free of EMF.
No group interested in anyone's best interest wants them to freeze literally to (heat) death.
The symptoms believed to proceed from a nonexistent or undefined illness are not limited to those listed by the EMF Safety Network propaganda materials; the human imagination is the only limit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:12PM (2 children)
Know what is worse than a real nazi? A grammar nazi!
(Score: 5, Funny) by requerdanos on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:38PM
It's actually "Nazi" (capital "N").
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grammar%20Nazi [urbandictionary.com]
(Score: 4, Funny) by jmorris on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:47AM
No, they prefer not to be called Nazis anymore. They are the Alt-Write.
Have I said lately how much I HATE the minimum post size limit?
(Score: 1) by DECbot on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:26PM (2 children)
Sounds like Mill Valley needs a better Faraday cage. I can still hear them.
Does anybody know if the EMF Safety Network passes out foil hats? Please educate me. Do they truly think that all EMF is bad, man-made EMF, or EMF above certain frequencies about particular power thresholds emitted a specified distance from a human is bad? Because one is argument is lunacy, one is kooky, and the last I can get behind. I mean, I like LED lights. That is until someone focuses the beam into a laser and fires it at 1000W directly into my retina from half a meter away. I don't like that type of EMF.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:39AM (1 child)
Your words evoke images of specificity, standards, quantifiable and definable things. Not so with their much more hand-wavy published pamphlet, What Is EMF? [emfsafetynetwork.org] (PDF warning), an excerpt from which appears below.
One might suspect that they're nutty as mixed nuts on a fruitcake, but not to worry, their website confidently asserts that:
There did not appear to be any reference to a particular study that supported these claims, footnoted or otherwise, so maybe their their word with a grain of salt. A big grain of salt. Their apparent attempt to smoothly, casually equate electromagnetic radiation with nuclear radiation is particularly troubling in the hand-wavy department. I wonder whether they even know that cell towers don't emit Iodine-131 as a natural part of their basic operation.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:22AM
Way off topic, but:
Our machines leak oil, often enough. Sometimes, that oil leaks above the electrical boxes. Now and then, you'll open an electrical cabinet, and find oil puddled at the bottom. Someone will ask, "How do we get oil in an ELECTRICAL CABINET?" And, my explanation for the past ten or twelve years has gone thus:
"They aren't maintenancing the generators like they used to. Instead of replacing failed bearings, they just lube hell out of them. There's excess oil all over the generators, and it has to go somewhere. So, it leaks into the power lines, and some of it ends up right here!"
You'd be surprised, first, at how many people take my explanation seriously.
You'd be even more surprised at how many people actually believe that explanation!!
Now, about that iodine-131 - where in hell do you expect it to go? :^)
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:17AM
It's also not a new phenomenon.
When the junior Zombies were small, about 12 years ago (or so), their school decided to fund-raise and buy a bunch of wi-fi access points so that each class could have a decent wireless signal.
This bought a small but very vocal group out of the bushes. You know them, stay-at home Mothers with a "I want to speak to the manager" haircut, and too much time on their hands.
They asserted loudly and repeatedly that wi-fi would give all the children cancer, until another group formed which demanded to see their evidence, as we had spent the money on access points.
As you can imagine, there was unpleasantness for a while, but the kids got their wi-fi.
Curiously, some of the same anti-wireless campaigners also started lobbying for the children to all have programming lessons a few months later, which seems equally stupid to me.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:14PM (1 child)
Shake some sense into those liberal wingnuts in California
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:30PM
Right after tornadoes come and suck the empty air out of your heads
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Tuesday September 11 2018, @10:58PM (2 children)
This is a good idea. The longer we stay on 4g the longer I can continue to string along my series of ageing Blackberries.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:38PM (1 child)
And I will stick to my Palm 3. It isn't online but it suits my needs admirably. The AAA batteries get a little pricy though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:36AM
You know they sell rechargeable AAA batteries now right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:46PM
ring mill valley with 5g towers. point them inwards. let the games begin!