A limo crash in New York has killed 20 people. The vehicle sped downhill towards an intersection of two highways, hit a stop sign, and crashed into a parked SUV. Two nearby pedestrians were also struck and killed:
[Read the latest: A passenger expressed concern about the limo shortly before the crash.]
The 17 friends had all piled into a white stretch limousine for what was supposed to have been a birthday celebration at an upstate New York brewery. But they never reached their destination. [...] The crash killed all 18 occupants of the limousine, including the driver, as well as two pedestrians, in an accident that left deep tire tracks in the ground and the small town about 40 miles west of Albany reeling.
[...] In an afternoon news conference outside Albany, the State Police offered few details about the accident, though Christopher Fiore, first deputy superintendent of the State Police, said that the limousine had been licensed in New York. Its driver was required to wear a seatbelt; its passengers in the back were not, he said. Only one person inside the limousine apparently survived the initial impact; that person later died after being flown in a helicopter to an Albany hospital.
Stretch limousines are modified after manufacturing and are generally not subject to the same safety regulations that are imposed on the protective structures for passenger cars. Such oversized vehicles have been involved in tragic accidents in New York before: In 2015, a limo carrying a bridal party of eight women crashed with a pickup truck in Cutchogue, N.Y., killing four people.
Further details show that the ride should never have happened:
The modified limo that crashed and killed 20 people wasn't even supposed to be on the road, New York's governor said Monday. On top of that, the driver "did not have the appropriate driver's license to be operating that vehicle," Gov. Andrew Cuomo said. The startling revelations bring more anguish to those grieving the deaths of 20 people in the quaint town of Schoharie. [...] "That vehicle was inspected by the New York State Department of Transportation last month and failed inspection and was not supposed to be on the road," Cuomo said.
A relatively local paper out of Albany, NY — The Times Union — has additional information on the crash. The intersection lies at the bottom of a hill on a road with a 50 mph (~85 kph) speed limit. There have been several accidents there before, some involving tractor trailers.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday October 09 2018, @08:48AM (16 children)
What I don't get, what's the fascination/attraction in using those stretch limousines?
I'd rather hire a bus or a train car, be them customised but with enough room to stand and move around, I see those limos more like a sarcophagus in the space available to move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Nuke on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:26AM (5 children)
I have never been in one but I can see the attraction for special occasions. They are just posh people carriers and I see nothing wrong with that in principle.
Some commentators are complaining that stretch limos are not made to adequate standards and are too big for the roads (even in the USA? Have they never seen a bus or truck?). As far as build standards go, that may be an issue for another day, but in this case the limo had recently failed a roadworthiness check but was still being hired out by a known criminal and illegal immigrant who was tolerated because he was a police informer. The reported lack of any skid marks is a clue as to the cause of the crash.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @11:06AM (3 children)
You don't see a problem with allowing an unsafe vehicle on public roads for the sole reason of letting idiots flaunt their wealth and class? If it was up to me, we wouldn't have open roofs, motorcycles or two sitters on the roads. Even if the risk of them crashing into someone else was eliminated, whenever an emergency responder is occupied by their shenanigans, someone else might be laying on the road elsewhere waiting for an ambulance or bleeding out on an emergency room bed as the paramedics / doctors are finishing up with the weekend Schumacher.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @11:18AM
THERE SHOULD BE NO CONSUMER CARS ON THE ROADS AT ALL. Those people are mostly drunk.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Tuesday October 09 2018, @03:13PM
It sounds like this one was only unsafe because it wasn't maintained properly. You want to get rid of buses, too?
Two-seaters? What possible safety complaint can you have against blanket-statement every car with less than 4 capacity?
So what you're saying is you just don't want the average citizen to be able to drive.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @03:42PM
"If it was up to me, we wouldn't have open roofs, motorcycles or two sitters on the roads."
-
It's not up to you, you pathetic worthless whining bitch.
SHUT THE FUCK UP BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE SHUTS YOU UP.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @01:24PM
If skid marks are found they can be useful data, but there are several factors which could exclude usefulness including slightest condensation / dampness, oil film, mud / dirt film, etc.
Also, if the limo had operational anti-lock brakes, skid marks won't likely happen:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=119188 [ncjrs.gov]
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:54AM (3 children)
Apparently, they rented a *bus*. Then the bus broke down and the company sent them that limo instead as replacement so they are not stranded. The company seems shady.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/nyregion/prestige-limousine-crash-schoharie.html [nytimes.com]
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday October 09 2018, @11:09AM
Fuck! A nasty way to go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bradley13 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @06:50PM (1 child)
The Limo company is owned by a criminal Pakistani who was apparently set up in this business as an FBI informant. It turns out that his vehicles aren't road worthy and his drivers aren't trained or licensed.
What culpability does the FBI have, for creating this situation?
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:59PM
None. Sovereign immunity.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @11:33AM (2 children)
I used to do client work for Tiffany's in Parsippany, NJ. The car service they used occasionally ran out of the regular town cars, so they sent actual limousines instead. They are a silly vehicle. When the driver accelerates, you slide all the way to the back. When he brakes, you slide all the way to the front. The interiors are supposed to be luxurious, but to me they seemed cheesy. Cheap crystal decanters full of liquor in the back? Who in the 21st century still thinks that it's OK to drink in a car? Then there's the chauffeur wearing his little cap. It's ridiculous. Some people actually get a rush off of having a servant in a little uniform bow and scrape to them?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday October 09 2018, @03:08PM (1 child)
If you're not driving, why not? Although it may take some effort to avoid spilling on yourself, depending on the driver.
Who the heck cares? This is a silly complaint. Chill.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @05:58PM
Ahaha, you still drink?
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @06:02PM (2 children)
I don't see how a party bus with people walking around is any more safe than a limo. Any ground vehicle that allows passengers to move freely around inside them is going to be dangerous. Perhaps a limo can be safe-enough at 35mph city street level driving. Though even a speed limit following 35+35 mph head on collision is bound to be fatal for someone not in a proper seat with a safety belt.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @06:38PM (1 child)
The difference is literal tons* of inertia. Ever been on a bus that hit something? I was in a bus that hit a deer once, badly enough that the driver had to pull over to remove some of it from the front grill. That was on an interstate highway, probably around 55+MPH. I wasn't aware that we'd hit anything until after we pulled over to stop. Hitting a deer in a car without a seatbelt can throw you right through the front windshield; but hit that same deer in a bus and you'd barely spill your drink. You *might* fall over if you're walking down the aisle and not holding on to the seats or anything but I doubt you'd be injured all that badly.
Granted, if you drive off a cliff or ram into a *really strong* brick wall you're still dead, but I don't think seatbelts would make much of a difference in that situation. Otherwise, there's not a hell of a lot on the roads that can cause a bus to come to a fast enough stop to actually throw people from their seats, so there's not as much reason to need a belt. A limo ain't a bus though...those things should probably have seatbelts. The modifications they make don't add anywhere near the amount of mass that you'd find on a bus.
* Here's the numbers:
My 4 door sedan's "curb weight": 3,500 lbs
Curb weight of some random stretch limo I found online: 4,500 lbs
Curb weight of a passenger bus: 40,000 lbs
My car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_G6 [wikipedia.org]
The limo: https://www.uship.com/shipment/2007-Lincoln-Town-Car-120-stretch-limo-2/140576215/ [uship.com]
The bus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_102DL3_%26_D4500 [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @06:59PM
That's a very interesting point. Though in the article's case, it was a limo in a severe state of disrepair hitting a parked car and pedestrians. I expect a party bus in a similar state of disrepair would be just as dangerous.
A 20 passenger bus would be closer to 10,000 lbs. Though I think the real advantage would be that it is actually designed to be a vehicle instead of just cut up with a sawzall like a limo with no regard to safety.
Granted, I don't think I would board a limo or a party bus that would be doing highway speeds.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Nuke on Tuesday October 09 2018, @08:53AM (2 children)
Hire company was owned by an Indian, and it sounds like it was run to Indian standards.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @01:40PM
Naah. It's just limo companies in general. They're all shady as shit. Place I work currently won't take them on as customers because they'll always rack up a huge bill and then disappear into the night without paying a cent. (They'd even reverse the set-up fee.) We'll do logistics companies, even one small time owner/operator out of Nowhere, WV (state changed to protect the innocent). Those are honest folks. Limo companies? If they said the sun was shining, I'd have to grab a photometer to verify.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @06:05PM
Only if there were people riding on the roof and it had no doors.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by ledow on Tuesday October 09 2018, @08:55AM (22 children)
Unlicensed driver, unroadworthy vehicle, but most importantly: NO evidence of any use of the DAMN SEATBELTS.
"Shortly before the crash, one of the victims inside the limousine sent a text suggesting that she was worried about the vehicle’s condition, using a profanity to describe the car."
It's a horrible thing to happen, but there are at least 20 people here who aren't blameless because they decided not to put a seatbelt on, in a car they felt wasn't safe.
This is how there are "bodies next to your car", for instance - how's that possible?
I really don't care whether they were "optional" or not... and whether I would be wearing one or not. 17 lots of 60kg thrown in your face at 50mph is fatal. Because they didn't put a cheap £5 belt around their lap.
50mph -> 0 in 2 seconds (this careless unlicenced driver in an unroadworthy car had two seconds braking distance, right?) is an acceleration of just over a G.
So it's literally the equivalent of picking the limo up from the front wheels, and dropping it on the ground - or picking it up, putting 17 people at the "front" of the passenger compartment, and letting them drop onto you sitting in the back seat under gravity.
And that's the BEST CASE SCENARIO without seatbelts. 17 people dropped on you as if they'd leapt on you from 15+ feet up (however long the passenger compartment for a limo is - 5.76m for a Ford Excursion?).
A rugby team has just jumped on top of you from the second storey window without warning.
Get your damn kids to buckle up. For their friends, if not for themselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Nuke on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:17AM (21 children)
If you read a bit more about this case (follow the links) you will gather that the limo did not have seat belts, and they are not legally required in stretch limos because they are classes as buses. It sounds as if a bigger factor was lack of brakes, as there are said to be no skid marks.
I am wondering how they got 17 passengers into a stretch limo; it does not look big enough for that number.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:46AM (1 child)
They can pack as many people in a limo as in a telephone booth :) Just look at India, they pack more people into a city than any other country in the world, other than maybe China.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Tuesday October 09 2018, @12:10PM
But judging by the colour of the relatives seen in the news I don't think the passengers in the limo were Indians, so they would not have been inclined to that sort of squeeze.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:50AM (5 children)
Look again [google.com]
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by c0lo on Tuesday October 09 2018, @11:54AM (4 children)
and again [guinnessworldrecords.com] (world record - 58 people on a motorcycle, "riding" 1.5km)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @01:20PM (3 children)
That actually looks safer. They are all wearing helmets and matching uniforms, and it is obvious they are going for the record, not just piling people into an unsafe vehicle.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @03:05PM (1 child)
because wearing matching uniforms makes it safer somehow
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 10 2018, @05:27AM
Well yeah. If they fall off and come apart it is much easier to put them back together if all the parts are swappable.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday October 10 2018, @02:23AM
I didn't get safety as being a concern in "I am wondering how they got 17 passengers into a stretch limo;", just the question on "fitting many people in/on something"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Tuesday October 09 2018, @12:13PM (12 children)
I don't care whether it did or not, or whether it was required to or not - I'm talking about people wearing seatbelts. My comment stands whether you're in a tuk-tuk or an 18-ton lorry.
This is not about a legal technicality when riding in an unsafe vehicle with an unlicenced driver.... this is about NOT DYING.
Taxis all have seatbelts in the UK. Buses often (but not always) have them but must have them if they are used above 30mph during their operation. Coaches, minibuses and anything else carrying children MUST have them.
And where fitted, they must be used.
It's really simple. Buckle up, or die and take your friends with you. At 50mph, you're gonna ALL DIE. How do we know? Look. It just happened. It's just that simple.
"In 1984, the National Highway Traffic Safety Authority carried out a Final Regulatory Impact Analysis on a series of suggested amendments to the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard which sets the standard for occupant crash protection. This included the largest and most comprehensive study of seat belt effectiveness based on USA data. (NHTSA 1984)... The study estimated that three point seat belts were 40% to 50% effective at preventing fatal injuries, 45% to 55% effective at preventing serious injuries and 10% effective at preventing slight injuries... It also compared their results against estimates of seat belt effectiveness at preventing fatal injuries in eleven other countries. The average effectiveness for these other countries was 47.1%."
If those people had been wearing seatbelts, there'd likely be 10 people alive today who instead died. If they'd ALL be wearing seatbelts, it would have likely been even more (because of the effects of receiving an unbelted person to the face at high speed).
And that's just at 50mph, hitting nothing in particular.
Now imagine a 70mph head-on crash with speeds in the 140-150mph difference range.
P.S. Airbags are pretty much useless without a seatbelt too. So even they really need a seatbelt to be of any use to you. Only the US really has "seatbeltless" airbag designs. Most other developed countries have compulsory seatbelt use, 95%+ measured usage of seatbelts across all drivers/passengers, and much higher accident survival rates (the US has twice as many fatalities per vehicle / accident / billion km travelled as the UK does).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday October 09 2018, @12:49PM (2 children)
I about 90% agree with you, with the engineering caveat that:
momentum and mass being issues, and buses not being very common its unusual for two to collide. I was in a city bus when a drunk guy t-boned it at full speed at an intersection, other than the sound of the car disintegrating (it was essentially destroyed; somehow the driver was unhurt) it was pretty much like driving over a pothole. There was a surprising amount of external damage to the bus but cars are very low to the ground so it didn't matter because most of the guys car would have slid under our feet if he was going just a little faster. I would imagine a head on collision with a little commuter car at highway speed might be kinda rough on the bus driver just due to flying glass and car parts, but if my commuter car weighs 2500 pounds and google claims a typical bus weight is 40000 pounds then if a bus at 70 mph head on collided with my commuter car at 70 mph the momentum ratios imply the bus would decrease in speed to 65 mph, equivalent to a parking lot accident at 5 mph very survivable. Or maybe not; slept late need caffeine. But it would be "of that order" if the bus weighs 16 times as much as my car.
Now, yeah, if the bus hit a bridge embankment or a train, everyone dies anyway because no seat belt will save them from that kind of impact, so you may as well not install them. I imagine there's some probably very narrow range of speeds for any collision type where seat belts would be effective for a bus. It seems the range of effective speeds is much wider for cars because most accidents are car-car similar weight.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 10 2018, @12:40AM (1 child)
Physics is ruthless
(Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Wednesday October 10 2018, @04:29AM
FTFY
Stop anthropomorphizing Nature, it upsets her when you do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09 2018, @01:19PM (8 children)
You are blaming the victims here because they did not put on seatbelts that did not exist, even though you know the seatbelts did not exist?
What is the matter with you?
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @01:36PM (7 children)
I think ledow's point is that the limo should have been required by law to have seatbelts.
The individuals could have chosen to not get into the limo when they discovered it did not have seatbelts.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday October 09 2018, @04:44PM (3 children)
Seat belts interfere with the ability to bang and drink at the back. They also would require properly designing their attachment points, when limos are made via sawzall, pipes, and some sheet metal (look for it if you never did, there is no crashworthiness in a limo).
More to the point, if the whole company was shady, failing inspections, and using unlicensed drivers, the odds of getting actual protection from a seat belt are probably also low.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday October 09 2018, @05:56PM (2 children)
> Seat belts interfere with the ability to bang...
No, they enable myriad new positions.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Hai on Tuesday October 09 2018, @09:17PM (1 child)
Bringing new meaning to safe sex.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday October 10 2018, @04:02PM
That was a pretty impressive lurk ...
(Score: 2) by ledow on Wednesday October 10 2018, @11:58AM (2 children)
Precisely.
I am blaming a culture that in 2018 thinks it's acceptable not to put on a seatbelt at 50mph in any vehicle, despite having concerns over the speed/safety of the vehicle they are in, when since the 1970's most countries have mandated them and eventually spread their use to virtually ALL instances you can think of.
I am blaming parents who brought up kids who don't feel uncomfortable in a car without a belt. I know I feel uncomfortable without a belt. Even if someone just pulls away while I'm trying to get the belt on having just sat in the car. I am blaming grown adults who can't imagine the physics and just sit quietly in the back texting their concerns to others rather than making them known to the driver and getting him to slow-down.
And I assure you my child has never spent a second inside a car in motion without a seatbelt... not even with "mad grandad" who has no care for his own safety... I've watched him strap her in every time like she was a fragile Faberge egg, even though she's 10 now, and the car doesn't move until she is. No prompting required.
It's not "their fault". But they are also not "blameless". Unlicensed/therefore presumably uninsured/unroadworthy vehicle is what caused the accident. Lack of seatbelt regulation, not buckling up and not saying "Woah, hold on..." is what made that accident kill them.
That limo company has been operating for a while. What if previous customers had had concerns, raised them, reported them, it had been investigated and the company was forced to stop operating like that? Maybe then they'd be alive. And it all depends on someone saying "No, hold on... this isn't right". Which they could have done, and instead the story could have been "19 kids narrowly avoid death after refusing dodgy-limo-firm's unroadworthy vehicle... drivers ends up dying in accident in same limo moments later".
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday October 10 2018, @02:49PM
Unfortunately these investigations take a ridiculous amount of time, so it will be long out of the top story list when we find out what happened. I hope the limo had a "black box" recording. I'd like to know the limo's speed, and if and when the brakes were applied.
I'd also like to know if the driver was on a phone- talking, texting, browsing, whatever.
I've seen very few pictures of the accident, but one strikes me: the loose wheel. That's not a normal thing in accidents. I have to wonder if the wheel came off first.
Also, the glimpses of the limo look fairly intact, not twisted, crushed, broken open. I'm having difficulty understanding how all of the limo's occupants died, which makes me wonder how fast it was going.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday October 10 2018, @02:58PM
I forgot to mention: I completely agree with your point about a culture of ignoring seat belts. I don't understand it at all. I always wear one, and feel a strong anxiety if it's not snug. I know several otherwise intelligent educated people who often don't wear them. I've viewed a few YouTube videos of accidents and it's interesting to learn how easily and quickly a car can spin, flip, roll, etc. It's truly amazing that some people survive, but most don't, and many who do are permanently disfigured, disabled, etc. Buckling up is so easy to do; I don't see a downside.