Submitted via IRC for Bytram
Nice people may be at greater risk of bankruptcy and other financial hardships compared with their less agreeable peers, not because they are more cooperative, but because they don't value money as much, according to research published by the American Psychological Association.
"We were interested in understanding whether having a nice and warm personality, what academics in personality research describe as agreeableness, was related to negative financial outcomes," said Sandra Matz, PhD, of Columbia Business School and lead author of the study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. "Previous research suggested that agreeableness was associated with lower credit scores and income. We wanted to see if that association held true for other financial indicators and, if so, better understand why nice guys seem to finish last."
[...] "We found that agreeableness was associated with indicators of financial hardship, including lower savings, higher debt and higher default rates," said Gladstone. "This relationship appears to be driven by the fact that agreeable people simply care less about money and therefore are at higher risk of money mismanagement."
[...] "Not every agreeable person is at equal risk of experiencing financial hardship," Gladstone said. "The relationship was much stronger for lower-income individuals, who don't have the financial means to compensate for the detrimental impact of their agreeable personality."
Nice guys finish last: When and why agreeableness is associated with economic hardship (DOI: 10.1037/pspp0000220)
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:25AM (11 children)
Cocksuckers always win.
All you motherfuckers throw money at Michael David Crawford because he is a friendly cocksucker who makes you feel pity for his fucking misfortune. What misfortune. MDC is a goddamned millionaire in real life.
On the other side of the coin I am a disagreeable malcontent who curses all of you all the time. I have no money and no chance of ever finding a job despite the fact that I am more intelligent than you stupid scum who value social soft cocksucking above hard technical skill.
Fuck you all to hell, stupid Soylent shit. Die in a fire, all of you.
Fuck MDC
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:32AM (1 child)
There is still a chance for you to win.
If you kill yourself, you WIN.
You can do it for free. Go walk on the freeway. Jump off a bridge. Suck on a tailpipe.
How you do it does not matter.
Just do it.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @05:24AM
Worst. Nike Commercial. Ever.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @04:13AM
"cocksucker who makes you feel pity for his fucking misfortune. What misfortune. MDC is a goddamned millionaire in real life."
You mean he is a jew?
(Score: 3, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday October 14 2018, @04:34AM (5 children)
I asked for someone to spring for a $54.99 wall wart.
About a year ago, some Soylentil I expect it was gave me about one LiteCoin, at the time its value was the same as my new wall wart.
During the winter of 2015-16, a Soylentil bought me three pairs of wool socks, a pair of wool gloves, cash for a pair of pants that were $45, a twenty dollar starbucks card and three chocolate chip cookies.
"A Friend" contributed $70 to a GoFundMe campaign I launched so as to just barely pay for my bills and food for a month. I'm pretty sure none of the other contributors were Soylentils, I don't know whether A Friend was.
I don't follow your argument that SN is "throwing money" at me. Care to elucidate?
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @06:51AM (3 children)
How dare someone ask for money and get it? They must obviously be a con artist working over suckers. Those are some big numbers you're posting MDC time to join the big leagues.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday October 14 2018, @09:19AM (2 children)
On Wednesday, January 16th I'm launching an Indiegogo campaign [soggy.jobs] with a funding goal of $550,000.
That's what I figure I need for three market rate engineers, a very _modest_ salary for me, NedSpace rent for us for a year, health insurance, computing equipment and so on.
I have it all in a budget spreadsheet. From time to time I look at it then adjust my funding goal accordingly.
I'm shooting raw footage for my pitch video with my iPhone 7. I have some friends who are entertainment industry professionals; one of them is going to edit my video for me.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by Hyper on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:30PM
I hope this is not an attempt at an Officespace joke
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:32PM
Seriously, dude, the world has enough js frameworks. Please. Don't.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @01:02PM
I'm a Soylenter (at least I claim to be on occasion), and I contributed to your GFM page about a year ago (anonymously, of course).
We've got your back, MDC ... but not your front. We're not touching that. :-/
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday October 14 2018, @04:36AM
I'll have you know that the can of chili I nuked a couple hours ago set me back one dollar.
Good luck finding one dollar chili in your town. It can be had, but so far I've only found one brand, and only when it's on sale.
Right now I don't have a client. In the morning I'll have breakfast at the Portland Rescue Mission. When I head back to work I'll bring with me a free loaf of bread.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @03:03AM
I sure as hell would not give you one thin dime, and I'm as generous a person as you'll ever find.
Your attitude sucks, it's no wonder you're unemployable.
Your also likely a prime example of the Dunning Kruger effect.
I would let MDC stay with me, and give him the shirt off my back to help him get where he wants to go.
The same is true for many of the fine folks here. They would at least try and contribute, you can tell by how they treat others.
You, on the other hand, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
It's no wonder even you see yourself as unemployable!
You're the cocksucker, and a losing cocksucker at that!
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday October 14 2018, @04:30AM (5 children)
There have been quite a few years I earned well over a hundred grand. Didn't do me much good at all.
All I really care about is that I can cover my very, very basic expenses. I'm talking rice and beans and a one-bedroom apartment.
Among my reasons for being homeless so long is that when my interviewers asked how much money I wanted, I told them what I required, and not what the industry agrees I am worth.
For someone like me to request less than $150k, I eventually concluded leads my interviewers to believe that I'm not really a coder.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @05:02AM (1 child)
Protip: consider preparing ahead of time, with industry standard at $X, something like "well, I think this position is worth about $X+10k. But I like the work you described, I like the culture it seems exists here, and I've worked at startups before so I know money can be tight. If that's out of your range, maybe we can find a way to make it cheaper. For instance, I value a lot. I know it's not standard so for, say, two paid weeks and I'd be willing to drop $X down to $(realMDCdesire+10% for untouchable-while-manic savings)"
Note $X+10k - as you state, the point of this is to make THEM think they're looking at a coder who knows what coder are worth, and that they can get a great deal, and for YOU to come across as desireable, and to ALSO get a wishlist item or two. If you want a paid hiking week every quarter or something, trade $50k for it, and you get to be super happy and so do they.
If, of course, you end up doing long-term work instead of these mixed contracts.
Good luck dude, strangers wish you the best! Keep on woolens on!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @05:06AM
Oops, failed to preview. Shouldn't have used those brackets.
> For instance, I value a lot
Should have been
> For instance, I value (a small list of things you might want, from more paid vacation time to not having to fight traffic to some remote work to whatever)
And
> two paid weeks and I'd
should have been
> two paid weeks and (whatever subchoice) I'd
(Score: 3, Insightful) by krishnoid on Monday October 15 2018, @12:26AM
You don't budget medical, transportation (and maybe eventually retirement) into expenses? Seems like those would be pretty basic expenses, and medical is a big one for everyone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:35PM
Perhaps next time look at the market and ask for a mid range of the going rate. Or have someone bargain for you. That is what contractors do here. We call them "pimps" for a good reason.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:39PM
Very basic for today.
How much have you saved for retirement?
Life? Holidays? Children? Taxes? Donations back to charity of your choice?
Have you spoken to a financial planner?
Do you have a financial plan for your life?
Do you find yourself spending everything you have? Start locking it away for 6 month investments. Talk to your back about diverting pay info a savings portfolio.
Grow up.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @04:47AM (16 children)
Chill peeps are happier peeps.
(Score: 4, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday October 14 2018, @05:23AM (15 children)
Yeah, I know. It was a great shock to me to find out that people who don't need money to be happy put less effort into getting piles and piles of it. Could have knocked me over with a feather.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @07:18AM
Since you're made of feathers that seems appropriate.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @07:32AM (12 children)
Did you read beyond the headline?
To me, it seems a potentially more interesting finding. It doesn't surprise me that people who care less about money end up with less of it. But I'm surprised a bit that "agreeable people" have a significantly higher incidence of bankruptcy, higher default rates, lower credit scores, etc. That's not just caring less about money -- that's being completely irresponsible. I mean, I'd expect perhaps a small trend, though not necessarily a big one.
After all, one can not care so much about accumulating hoards of money and be a kind and gentle soul, but also still be a reasonably responsible person who pays bills on time. (I'd claim to be one such person.) One can also be an aggressive money-hungry businessman who takes crazy risks, doesn't pay attention to the "details" of management, and ends up declaring bankruptcy multiple times. (Plenty of those types even as CEOs of businesses, though they often get bailed out with their "golden parachutes.")
Or, in short, responsibility and agreeableness seem to be somewhat orthogonal personality characteristics.
And the headline doesn't quite seem to match the summary, which implies that the connection is "Agreeable people tend to place less value on money" AND "Agreeable people end up having financial disadvantages." When it's phrased as "agreeable people WHO don't value money have financial disadvantages" it sounds like a tautology, I agree. Because the headline sounds like you're taking a subset of "agreeable people" (i.e., only those who place less value on money), but that's not what the study did... it said agreeable people in general end up with financial disadvantages.
So why might that be? Some of it might be (as implied in the summary) that they just care less about money in general, which means -- I guess -- that they're "carefree" and loose with it, not practicing responsible spending or budgeting or whatever.
But I wonder whether there aren't other factors at work here, specifically the likelihood of "agreeable people" being screwed over by more aggressive folks financially (as they are in other things). Or even agreeable people failing to get confrontational enough to deal with financial problems that aren't their own fault. I'm generally an "agreeable person," but quite a few times in my life I've had to get aggressive and fight to correct financial errors for example. I've had medical bills that I've had to call again and again and get them to refile with insurance until they do it properly so things get paid. I've had government bills go to the wrong address even though I had corrected my address with them, and then have had huge fines slapped on me that I needed to dispute multiple times by writing and have aggressive phone calls to finally get someone to listen and correct them. I've had to sometimes contact multiple government agencies to resolve utility bills that were leveled on me in error. I've had quite a few such situations in my life that could have ruined my credit scores if they weren't resolved -- and I had to take care of them, so I gave up my normal "agreeableness" and had to fight with people to fix things.
In all cases, I was also lucky enough financially that I could have absorbed the loss even if I hadn't been able to resolve these situations. (Though I'd be poorer today.) If I didn't earn a decent salary or if such situations like mine piled up, I might not be able to cope with them financially. And "agreeable" people are probably less likely to ask for what they would perceive as "special treatment" -- offering to pay back a part of a debt, trying to negotiate a better deal after the fact, asking for a salary advance to deal with an unusual situation (or being more aggressive in requesting raises, even you're struggling financially), trying to ask a creditor to remove bad reports (that affect credit scores, etc.). I could easily see someone like me -- who is reasonably responsible with money, even if I don't covet it -- falling into a trap of financial ruin if I had some bad luck and weren't willing to fight to help myself... instead just accepting the bad stuff that comes my way and suffering the consequences.
Bottom line: Some "agreeable" people may simply be happy-go-lucky irresponsible folks with money, but I wonder if the effect here isn't also measuring a lot of "agreeable" people who get screwed over by the system.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by crafoo on Sunday October 14 2018, @12:59PM (1 child)
Some very good points.
They say agreeable people, but do they mean conflict-adverse people or just weak, pussified people-pleasers? Someone who runs from conflicts and aggression. Someone that can be easily manipulated once you know they won't confront you over theft, dishonesty, and abuse? Someone who won't even admit to themselves their real life desires and build a plan to achieve them?
If so, I think it's quite logical these people end up failing. It's actually quite fitting. Everyone competes in the game whether they enjoy that fact or not.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday October 15 2018, @12:51AM
Wait, this is a *fact*? They may care *more* about being agreeable than about money, but this doesn't sound right.
Could it be that in some situations, just being agreeable can directly impact people financially, negatively, and substantially? I'd think that some folks want to be agreeable with a bunch of people, and eventually find some friends who notice that and are able to collect significant fractions of your money. The same $100 for groceries or consumer goods that those acquaintances get from you could be a large fraction for "... lower-income individuals, who don't have the financial means to compensate for the detrimental impact of their agreeable personality."
I've also seen people equate "being agreeable" to "not taking money when people offer it", which also makes sense.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @01:58PM (4 children)
The US (and World) financial systems are geared toward greed, acquiring as much capital as possible and/or incurring as much debt as possible. Having more debt "experience" leads to better credit ratings (even if they are living check to check, or hunting for lose change in their couch). So when someone who is not a "I need all the dollars douche" finds themselves in a financial bind they don't have the creditors ready and willing to bury them in more debt. Fewer credit options ends up meaning more defaults and bankruptcies.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday October 14 2018, @02:24PM (3 children)
Doesn't it all depend on how you look at it though? Isn't someone who owes $30,000 worth $30,000 less than someone who's just completed a bankruptcy leaving them with exactly nothing? This society has come to worship
creditdebt.If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:22PM (2 children)
Well ... um ... you are correct (and very much so), but someone who has declared bankruptcy is not worth anything in the eyes of the financial community because then are not (and will not be for a while) a source of revenue (e.g., interest on your credit cards, on your store cards, on your car loans, on your mortgage, etc). So someone with lots of debt is worth less in a "the math is easy" sort of way, but they are worth more to the world because they are living beyond their means and fueling the economy and financial industry.
Sadly, in America people's financial worth is measured with the "how much can they buy" metric, whereas in places like Europe their financial worth would be measured in the "how much can they save" metric. The US economy did not learn much from the credit industry collapse from 10 years ago (and we never will).
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday October 15 2018, @12:31AM (1 child)
On the flip side of that, isn't someone who owes $30E3 and hasn't defaulted yet, basically the same as the lender holding a bond for that amount? That's like an investment, which is worth mumble time value of money mumble something with accompanying risk.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @09:41AM
In a way, yes. But bonds have a much lower risk and that is reflected in their lower yield. The loan has greater risk and pays accordingly.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday October 14 2018, @02:57PM
You must be new here.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:04PM (3 children)
You don't sound particularly agreeable. I mean you did just type a big ole wall-o-text to disagree with a joke. Mind you, disagreeable doesn't mean also being assertive in psych context. It's quite possible to be disagreeable and fail to assert your disagreements. That may be where your confusion is coming in.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:27PM
Disagreeable people generally sound agreeable to themselves and those who echo their beliefs. To the rest of us? Not so much.
I think AC may have missed the joke, and would have also missed a 36pt font Whoosh!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @10:16PM (1 child)
You're a known troll. And where is the joke? What you said in your previous comment is true -- the headline DOES (as AC asserts) sound like a tautology, and your reaction to it seems perfectly reasonable if you were looking at the study the way the headline implied. So your comment may have been said in a lighthearted manner, but were you actually joking or being somewhat serious. (I know with trolls that it's hard to tell -- probably even for yourself. I assume you turned off that mechanism that understands when you're sincere long ago.)
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 15 2018, @12:26AM
Jokes are not necessarily untrue or non-serious. Take the writings of Mark Twain, for instance. Overthinking them is still ridiculous though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by mcgrew on Sunday October 14 2018, @03:40PM
Everyone needs SOME money. I have a modest pension and Social Security, which buys me all I need and most of what I want. Why should I bust my ass to be able to buy newer, shinier stuff?
A Tesla would be nice, though.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Sunday October 14 2018, @06:53AM (1 child)
So the study says that if you put less value in money, you'll on average end up having less of it? And that is supposed to be surprising?
I make another prediction: People who put more value in travel will, on average, see more places.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @08:19AM
Even an obvious conclusion is hard to come by, if one was conditioned to take on faith everything he was taught. People easily believe in a number of conflicting assertions, simply by virtue of never thinking about what any of it really means.
They "know" what they've heard from an authority, and that's enough; no need to spend calories on engaging the brain.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @12:26PM
money.
Am I at risk of being at a financial disadvantage?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @02:06PM
Some people say man is now 'above ' evolution, no longer subject to it but this article indicates that is not so. Nice people will be less financially successful, less able to attract a mate, and have their "nice" genes dropping from the collective gene pool. The remaining mean, selfish, greedy bastards will be more suitably adapted for the capitalist economic system they find themselves in.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @08:25PM
I've met plenty of disagreeable people who don't have a lot of money. Who can blame them if work is stressful and they are barely scraping by.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 14 2018, @11:46PM
> Agreeable People Who Place Less Value on Money at a Financial Disadvantage, Study Says
Disagreeable People Who Place more Value on Money at an Emotional Disadvantage, Study Says
Did I do that right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @10:51AM
What I do hate is seeing it pissed away on fatuous academic research such as this.