from the don't-look-a-workhorse-in-the-grille dept.
Submitted via IRC for Bytram
New 100-mile electric van matches diesel vans on price, Workhorse says
Electric-vehicle maker Workhorse announced today that it has begun initial production of a 100-mile range electric delivery truck called the NGEN-1000. The truck is meant to replace diesel-powered delivery trucks, but this vehicle weighs less than half of what a comparable internal combustion van usually weighs.
In a press release, Workhorse said that it "believes this weight reduction, coupled with the 100-mile range, will have cost-savings implications that will make the EV alternative to traditional fleet delivery vehicles all the more appealing."
Workhorse CEO Stephen S. Burns added that the van would have "an off-the-lot cost on par with traditional fuel delivery vehicles, and substantial savings from there."
The truck will come in four sizes, up to a maximum of 1,000 cubic feet of storage. It also has all-wheel-drive and a 6,000-pound carrying capacity.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by MostCynical on Friday October 19 2018, @05:09AM (24 children)
Based on the averages [energy.gov], over half of all vehicles in the US do fewer than 100 miles per day.
Now lets have everyone reply: "but I do more than that!"
Congratulations, you are driving more than the average.
Even if only a percentage move to EV, fuel use [energy.gov] will drop dramatically.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @06:12AM (6 children)
Daily average is all fine and good except for the days when you go over the average. In college, I would drive my vehicle maybe 30 miles per week, but twice a year I would need it to go 1000 miles. A gasoline car could handle both use cases, a100 mile range electric probably wouldn't have gotten me to the next gas station when crossing through Nevada.
You don't buy a car for just the average use case.
These appear to be cargo van, though. I'm not sure what their use case is. Maybe 100 mile range is sufficient for the some users needs and, if so, this may be a good option for them. If so, good for them and good for the manufacturer. However, I suspect 100 mile limit won't satisfy the worst case needs for many of the users and is therefore a show stopper for them.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Friday October 19 2018, @08:34AM (3 children)
So rent a car for two days per year?
(Score: 4, Informative) by choose another one on Friday October 19 2018, @03:03PM (2 children)
> So rent a car for two days per year?
Yeah, that works - for two days a year. But when it's three or four week-long trips per year with kids (so in school holiday times) and you need seven seats plus roofbox plus bike rack, then the rental costs are huge and soon add up to more than the annual cost of keeping the car on the road - I know because I've got the quotes and done the maths several times over the life of the car, it's never been worth switching to rental.
That means, of course, that for the rest of the year when we don't need a seven seater capable of long trips, we have one that's effectively already paid for - just add fuel - result is the seven seater spends most of its time (but not most of its miles) doing short runs with one of two people in it. if we bought an electric two-seater for the short runs then yes we'd save the fuel costs but that would never save enough to buy and run the electric (or any other car).
This is the fallacy of comparing things based on "does 90% of the job" - separate provision of the remaining 10% may cost as much (or more), and in fact frequently does (call it 80/20 rule, 90/10, whatever). There is a further fallacy in green/electric car debates, the "90% of trips" is _not_ even "90% of the job, based on mileage. Sure, maybe 90% of trips can be done by electric car, but (a) that doesn't mean 90% of cars can be electric (see above) and (b) it doesn't mean that 90% of car _mileage_ can be done by electric - my 7 seater probably does 90% of trips less than 15miles, but _most_ of its _mileage_ is in journeys over 100 miles, and a significant percentage is in journeys over 300 miles.
(Score: 3, Touché) by pe1rxq on Friday October 19 2018, @03:37PM
There is an even bigger fallacy in your post:
Using your personal use-cases like trips with kids when discussing the range of a delivery van.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @04:47PM
No wonder you're so negative -- you torture yourself.
(Score: 5, Touché) by hemocyanin on Friday October 19 2018, @12:21PM (1 child)
Once every ten years on average I rent a giant Uhaul to move my household goods. I should probably just buy a cargo truck for my daily driver.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @07:23PM
My father in law bought a giant diesel truck and a 11 passenger van. The former is "in case [the wife and I] decide to move closer to them" and the latter is "for the grandkids." Now, the wife and I have zero plans to move now, let alone 3 years ago when he got the truck. And as for the grandkids, they have one and no more on the way, barring more accidents, as all their sources of grandchildren are either sterile, on long-term birth control, or celibate due to their religion.
The best part is that whenever we got together, he had the audacity to bitch about how much gas those vehicles guzzle despite "only taking them to the store." Well, he used to until I replied, "Well, that is what you get for making a stupid decision," and then followed his rebuttal with, "like I said, 'stupid decision.'" And they wonder why all their children, except the mooching baby of the family, seem to actively avoid them.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by qzm on Friday October 19 2018, @06:14AM (10 children)
It's a Damn delivery van.
Care to guess how much they average in a day?
You know, vehicles often on the road 12 to 14 hours a day with shift drivers?
More to the point, half the weight of a normal van? Batteries don't make things lighter, and the motors are not much less, so I am guessing they have hugely compromised the structural integrity. I would imagine they will fall apart in a small fraction of the half million miles a normal devilry van does...
Still, a few companies will buy them for certain specific markets in an attempt to Greenwash themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @06:25AM
If these are used in-city, and the driver is unloading at each stop, 100 miles could be enough.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @06:26AM
You should look at the picture in the article, looks like the van is made of fibreglass and plastic. This thing won't even stand strong gusts of wind.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bradley13 on Friday October 19 2018, @07:09AM (4 children)
"It's a Damn delivery van. Care to guess how much they average in a day? You know, vehicles often on the road 12 to 14 hours a day with shift drivers?"
Exactly. A 100-mile range is just laughable for your typical delivery van. There is exactly one use case that makes sense: a delivery vehicle that has many, many stops very close together. I can see this as a postal delivery vehicle. Anything else - even UPS, which has ordered some vehicles to test - the 100-mile range is just too short...
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 5, Informative) by MostCynical on Friday October 19 2018, @07:28AM
https://www.quora.com/How-many-miles-per-day-does-a-FedEx-or-UPS-driver-drive-on-average [quora.com]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @07:50AM
(Score: 4, Informative) by Unixnut on Friday October 19 2018, @09:15AM (1 child)
The UK Has used BEV for residential deliveries for milk since the 1960s. Lots of stop and go deliveries, within a small area, with the benefits of silent running (because milk deliveries tended to be early in the morning).
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float [wikipedia.org]
So this BE van has potential, it might actually be one of the more sane applications of electric vehicles I have heard of so far. This isn't going to be hauling stuff between towns or out in the country, but for last mile deliveries in dense urban neighbourhoods, it might actually make sense.
However, one thing not mentioned in TFS: is the 100 mile range when empty? or when fully laiden? If it is the range when empty, what is the range when you load up the van and use it as a van should be used? Also, what is the recharge to full time? A normal van can do a round, get a fuel refill in 10 min, and be out again on another route.
IMO this kind of vehicle would be perfectly suited to a battery swap system, as there is likely to be a fleet of identical vans owned by a company, with hangers and maintenance crew taking care of them. They buy 2x as many batteries as vans, then they can have two rounds between having to wait for recharging. Although I can't see how it would be cheaper than the current diesel systems.
(Score: 2) by DavePolaschek on Friday October 19 2018, @01:52PM
They could use it to deliver newspapers instead of having some guy driving around in a rusted out 1976 Lincoln Town Coupe!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @09:18AM (2 children)
Half the weight of a normal van seems unlikely to me.
Years ago I had a "12 foot" International Metro (step van) that had originally been a bread delivery truck. There was 12 feet (~3.7m) of floor length behind the driver, general shape looked like the one in the link. The body was all steel and the walls were double thick, inner and outer layers of fairly thin steel, welded with internal ribs. It had a very "agricultural" 220 cu. in. (3.6L) 6 cylinder engine and a top speed around 60 mph (faster and more exciting downhill). Weight on truck scales was 6000 lbs (2700Kg). I really doubt that this electric van can weigh 3000 lbs--which would be less than all but the smallest cars sold in USA at this time.
There were aluminum body versions that looked very similar, since the running gear and frame stayed about the same the weight savings was only on the body parts. Not sure, but an equivalent step van might be 1000 lbs lighter in aluminum. While aluminum is ~1/3 the weight of steel by volume, it is also about 1/3 as stiff, so body panels have to be a little thicker to replace steel.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 19 2018, @09:30AM (1 child)
They made the van out of plastic, so much lighter than steel (or aluminum). Probably the only metal bits are the batteries, motors and electronics.
(Score: 1) by Goghit on Friday October 19 2018, @02:50PM
I doubt they're hanging 3 tons of cargo and a heavy battery pack off aluminum or plastic - there's steel in there somewhere. Agree with the commentor upstream that "half the weight of a conventional van" is bullshit. Or the capacity is bullshit. As we're living in an age of bullshit, truly a vehicle for our time.
(Score: 2) by theluggage on Friday October 19 2018, @05:10PM
On average, people really don't understand what "average" means...
Bob drives a 50 mile round-trip to work 260 days a year. Once a month, he drives 300 miles to visit his family. His average daily mileage is therefore (50x260 + 300x12)/365 = 45.5 miles. So, a car with a max range of 100 miles is going to be fine for him... not. Duh! That's a hefty commute, too - you'd have to drive more than 100 miles most days to have an average of over 100...
Anyhow, that's irrelevant here because this is a commercial vehicle not a replacement for a jack-of-all-trades family car that has to deal with the hugely variable daily mileages of commuting, holidays and family emergencies in one package. Owners of commercial vehicles will have a damn good idea of how many miles a day each vehicle in their fleet does, and those used for local deliveries may well never drive more than 100 miles a day (and/or may return to the depot periodically for a a re-load/driver change when they can be topped up). Those are the ones this could be replacing. Other delivery vehicles - definitely not.
The issue is how we can get to the stage where all/most gas/diesel vehicles can be eliminated (...which will also make towns and cities quieter and less lung-rotting places to live, even for AGW skeptics).
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday October 19 2018, @07:32PM (1 child)
I want a gas-electric or diesel-electric hybrid pickup. M-F I average 10-50 miles a day and once my busy schedule dies down I will be back up to 100+ miles on most Sat/Sun. I would love to have the majority of my driving being electric and then gas/diesel kick in when I hit the point where I need extra fuel, it would also enable me to not need a different vehicle if I go on those 300+ mile drives.
I am not willing to not drive a Truck because I use it as a truck more than I am willing to go and rent one for, I also don't want to have two vehicles, but I am willing to spend 20-30% more for a Truck that is less bad for the environment.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:09PM
Farmer here.
I'd be happy with fuel/electric hybrid, but I'd be happiest if it were a serial hybrid. Small battery, electric motors on the wheels with traction control, ABS and so on all built in. When it's on the road, the generator just produces enough electricity to keep things mumbling along. On the fields, I can crawl all day and use a three-prong plug for tools wherever I need to do anything. It doesn't even have to be an internal combustion engine. A Stirling-type engine would do fine, and be more fuel-agnostic.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday October 19 2018, @10:08PM (1 child)
Perversely, replacing lots of gas vehicles with electricity should drop gas demand, and therefore prices, making electric vehicles less competitive.
(Score: 2) by rondon on Monday October 22 2018, @04:09PM
I completely agree, and there is going to be a spot on the demand curve where petrol and electric vehicles stabilize. The question is, will this spot be enough for vast networks of energy delivery for both types? Or will government step in to pick a winner so we don't have too many types of fuel? Food for thought, imo.
(Score: 2) by sonamchauhan on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:25AM
Two solutions: each car has multiple, small, Roomba-like batteries that recharge themselves.
An optional, tiny, petrol engine on one of the BRoombas.