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posted by Fnord666 on Saturday October 20 2018, @12:58AM   Printer-friendly
from the all-your-data-are-belong-to-us dept.

The Verge is reporting that the next data minefield is your car. GM has been capturing lots of user data from the cars they have sold and is apparently planning to sell that (stolen|coerced) data to advertisers targeting, for now, radio advertising. Newer cars generate upwards of 600GB of user data per day. This is causing business leaders to drool because some expect the value of this data to reach more than $1.5 trillion by the year 2030, if the data (capture|theft) remains uncontested. GM is the first auto maker so far to try this. The first batch took data from around 90,000 vehicles. However, there was not much detail given about how permission was gained for this data capture and whether agreement was coerced or through ignorance.

GM captured minuted details such as station selection, volume level, and ZIP codes of vehicle owners, and then used the car's built-in Wi-Fi signal to upload the data to its servers. The goal was to determine the relationship between what drivers listen to and what they buy and then turn around and sell the data to advertisers and radio operators. And it got really specific: GM tracked a driver listening to country music who stopped at a Tim Horton's restaurant. (No data on that donut order, though.)

Also at The Detroit Free Press : GM tracked radio listening habits for 3 months: Here's why.


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  • (Score: 2) by legont on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:09AM (4 children)

    by legont (4179) on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:09AM (#751233)

    They should be hot commodity.

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:39AM (3 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:39AM (#751242) Journal

      Buy Tata cars, they'll be cheaper that the oxygen-free Monster tin foil.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:59AM (2 children)

        by MostCynical (2589) on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:59AM (#751316) Journal

        If a car is already made of foil, what can you do?

        --
        "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:20AM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:20AM (#751320) Journal

          If a car is already made of foil

          Nothing! But I already said "buy Tata cars", haven't I?

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:46AM

            by MostCynical (2589) on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:46AM (#751327) Journal

            they are not all [wikipedia.org] bad.

            --
            "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
  • (Score: -1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:13AM (2 children)

    by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:13AM (#751234) Homepage Journal

    They had all this cyber sitting around. Doing nothing. And they thought, let's put that cyber to work. Let's make ourselves some money off of that. Something a lot of our companies do when they go into Bankruptcy. Smart!

    And hopefully a lot of our businesses will do that before they do the bankruptcy. So they'll be much stronger. And make our Country very strong. They say "the business of America is business" -- and it's so true. Now bring back Chevy Cruze from Mexico!!!!

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:21AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:21AM (#751246)

      Bring back the Chevy Cruze from Mexico and send them Ted Cruz.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:55AM

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:55AM (#751342) Homepage Journal

        He's Canadian. But, he speaks Mexican. So interesting. He's trying very hard to be American, I think he wants to stay. If he wants to go, we'll miss him -- very tough guy. On Google Bias & Bans, on the so-called good censor (China Dragonfly) -- very tough. #StopTheBias [twitter.com] youtu.be/32Szg7nbCmQ [youtu.be]

        And maybe you work for Google. Well, you don't have to anymore. The REAL jobs are back. The ones that make our Country stronger -- not weaker!

        I'll tell you, if Ted's going he'd better hurry up. Because we're thinking about we're thinking about releasing the rest of the JFK Documents. And, we're thinking about TOTALLY SEALING our Boarder. Nothing coming in. And nothing going out!

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:13AM (16 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:13AM (#751235)

    The Electronic Fronteer Foundation has been eerily quiet lately on this and many other topics. It's like the organization has changed goals since Barlow died. Massive data mining is the kind of activity that they would have been on top of, back in the old days.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:09AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:09AM (#751256)

      Yeah they aren't doing shit about data mining... riiiight?

      Privacy Badger Now Fights More Sneaky Google Tracking [eff.org]

      They have bigger fish to fry anyway:

      Ten Legislative Victories You Helped Us Win in California [eff.org]

      • Net Neutrality for California
      • Increased Transparency into Local Law Enforcement Policies
      • Public Access to Footage from Police Body Cameras
      • Privacy Protections for Cannabis Users
      • Better DNA Privacy for Youths
      • Guaranteed Internet Access for Kids in Foster Care and Juvenile Detention
      • Better Privacy Protections for ID Scanning
      • Open Access to Government-funded Research
      • No Government Committee Deciding What is “Fake News”
      • Helped Craft a Better Bot-Labeling Law

      When Police Misuse Their Power to Control News Coverage, They Shouldn’t Be Allowed To Use Probable Cause As a Shield Against Claims of First Amendment Violations [eff.org]

      Chicago Should Reject a Proposal for Private-Sector Face Surveillance [eff.org]

      If EFF isn't covering your pet issue or case, you should look to the ACLU or Electronic Privacy Information Center.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:30AM (12 children)

      by fyngyrz (6567) on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:30AM (#751286) Journal

      The Electronic Fronteer Foundation has been eerily quiet lately

      All I can say is that used older vehicles are looking very, very good to me these days. Our vehicles are all circa 2002 right now, no talking to anything for them. They're all long past warranty, and are serviced by private mechanics, so hopefully there's no shared data mining going on at all with them even from the diagnostic port during service.

      If these go (before we do) I suspect we'll be looking for about the same vintage vehicles next time around the loop. But good news: they're in excellent shape. :)

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:33PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:33PM (#751422)

        i've got an early 2000's japanese vehicle with ~175k on it and i've just about fixed everything on it that needs fixing. i only drive like 3k a year and i expect to get at least a 100k more out it. hopefully, when i upgrade, it will be into a FOSS vehicle or one i built myself. it may be reminiscent of mad max if things don't change for the better.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:52PM (#751429)

          > ... or one i built myself...

          Been there, done that (high school project). Suggest you start designing and building your car now so that it will be ready when you need it. Contrary to various kit car adverts (etc) that make it look easy, it's going to take a long time, cars are complex, even old cars.

      • (Score: 2) by dry on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:48PM (9 children)

        by dry (223) on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:48PM (#751428) Journal

        All I can say is that used older vehicles are looking very, very good to me these days. Our vehicles are all circa 2002 right now, no talking to anything for them. They're all long past warranty, and are serviced by private mechanics, so hopefully there's no shared data mining going on at all with them even from the diagnostic port during service.

        If these go (before we do) I suspect we'll be looking for about the same vintage vehicles next time around the loop. But good news: they're in excellent shape. :)

        Still too new. Next is forcing you to install a dongle on the OBDII port, a dongle that includes GPS and a radio to upload the data. This has already started, using the carrot right now, lower insurance prices. Eventually it may be a law as the insurance companies love it and once they realize they can sell the data, they'll love it more. Law enforcement also loves the idea of being able to check how fast you go and where.
        Really you need a vehicle from before about 1995.

        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Saturday October 20 2018, @11:56PM (6 children)

          by RS3 (6367) on Saturday October 20 2018, @11:56PM (#751514)

          > Really you need a vehicle from before about 1995.

          Spot on. OBD2 started in 1995, and 1996 up it's required. I doubt anyone makes a vehicle tracker for pre-OBD2, although vehicle speed data comes through the earlier ports, but not usually power, so there's that too.

          You could go pre-1980-ish and have no computer.

          If they try to force me to use an OBD2 dongle, I surely hope it's internally protected from very large electrical surges.

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:15AM (5 children)

            by dry (223) on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:15AM (#751580) Journal

            Last none computerized vehicle I had was an '86 Nissan 4x4. Mostly used wax to control vacuum and did well in the smog test, even without a catalytic converter.

            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:44PM (4 children)

              by RS3 (6367) on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:44PM (#751724)

              That's intriguing on many levels. It frustrated me that American car companies were _forced_ to do catalytic converters in 1974 (IIRC). The first gen "gravel bed" ones were terrible, clogged up easily, very expensive, etc. I thought all imports were required in 1980, but maybe import trucks did not require cats until after 1986?

              I've always been a tuner / tweaker. I want efficiency, which brings max fuel economy, decent power, and low emissions. My non-cat 1960s musclecar did better in tailpipe smog test than my computerized catted 1989 Chevy; admittedly the 1989 had a problem and somehow I was never notified of a recall for an incorrect computer calibration. My frustration: I could not tune the 1989. So I studied and learned that I could buy a different but compatible computer and tune away, so I did that.

              Now I need to tune an OBD2 Chevy and it seems my only option is $1K-2K interface. I'd like to find it in the $100 range.

              Wax to control vacuum? You mean a coolant-temperature sensing vacuum control? I always _hated_ all those hoses under Japanese car hoods. What a nightmare!

              • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday October 21 2018, @07:04PM (3 children)

                by dry (223) on Sunday October 21 2018, @07:04PM (#751745) Journal

                I meant that the catalytic converter was removed after it clogged up, which was/is legal here, which is Canada. The truck was actually made in America and we generally have the same rules as the US.

                The problem is efficiency and clean don't go totally together. You can advance the timing and HC and CO drops close to zero while NOx goes way up. Somewhere is a compromise where everything is low, and while it is efficient, it is not the most efficient. Same with increasing compression, runs better, but higher NOx.

                Yes I meant little wax pellets that expanded as the engine warmed up and allowed vacuum to the EGR for example.
                While in the late '70's, there was a nightmare of vacuum lines, air pumps and other crap, the Nissan Z motor actually didn't have much pollution controls on it. Two spark plugs per cylinder probably helped along with the head design but otherwise, an EGR, spark timing and a anti-dieseling system that also shut the gas of when decelerating.

                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:30PM (2 children)

                  by RS3 (6367) on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:30PM (#751765)

                  Hi neighbor. Yes, agreed on all fronts. I have a '90s vehicle (made in Canada) that cleared out its own cat. converter. Inspectors don't know that it's an empty can. Yes, NOx is the problem child, and like you say, factors fight each other. 2 plugs are a great idea. You may know small plane piston engines have 2 plugs, and as part of "run up" checks you turn off each ignition and note RPM drop, which shows it runs better on 2.

                  I'm not deep expert (too many other interests prevent deeper understanding) but I've been reading and tinkering for a long time. My preferred combination, I mostly stumbled on, is high compression (11:1, 60's musclecar), lower coolant temp (160), high energy ignition with fairly aggressive timing curve, tweaked carb running on the lean side, but not to the point of misfire, moderate cam, headers, aftermarket intake manifold, and it all worked very well. Lots of power, surprising MPG (got 22 on a long trip driving reasonably), and very good smog tests.

                  Now I just need to be able to tune this OBD2 thing.

                  • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:50PM (1 child)

                    by dry (223) on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:50PM (#751816) Journal

                    Yes, doing something like you did to your '60's muscle car would need a lot of reprogramming. My understanding is that during reprogramming, you have to drive it in various ways while monitoring everything, especially the O2 sensors and adjusting the programming as you go. Basically a 2 person job. It's a shame that the better stuff is so expensive, seems to be just a RS232 connector or such and hopefully a serial interface but I don't know. A wireless dongle or USB connected one and the right software in a laptop seems like would be good enough but once again just guessing
                    22 MPG, and I take it you mean American gallons, is pretty good from any American '60's car.

                    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday October 22 2018, @03:05AM

                      by RS3 (6367) on Monday October 22 2018, @03:05AM (#751850)

                      There are several aftermarket companies making EFI retrofit systems. "MegaSquirt" was one of the first I remember. Holley, Edelbrock, and dozens of others are on the market. Some use existing ECU (computers) and reprogram them, make wire harnesses, sensor sets, etc. One of many back-burner projects I think about is an EFI for the 60s car.

                      Actually many "tuners" (motorheads) disable O2 feedback system altogether and tune for as close to stoichiometric (ideal air-fuel ratio) as possible. They usually use a wide-band O2 sensor and datalog that. Standard zirconium dioxide O2 sensors are pretty much switching devices- not linear.

                      Frankly I think the O2 system is stupid. All it does is measure residual O2 in the exhaust. I might be way off base, but I just think you can't be sure of burn efficiency just because of residual O2. Which is why the car manufacturers are moving to wide-band O2 sensing, and it's much better.

                      So for my '94 Chevy I built a simple ALDL (computer diag. connector under dash) to RS232 interface and run TunerProRT on a laptop to datalog all the sensors and some of the internal calculated parameters. Occasionally looking at the TunerProRT "dashboard" on the laptop, and otherwise studying the datalogs. Using the same software you retune the parameters, erase and reburn the EPROM (can be replaced by a FLASH chip), drive and datalog some more, and tweak / tune / refine. I ended up with amazingly improved driveability. The incremental changes are usually subtle, but every now and then I'd put an original ROM in and it was amazing how bad the vehicle would run. Again, tuning for better gas mileage, emissions, efficiency, and you end up with better gas mileage, much better driveability. There's a whole world of EFI tuners including shops that will do it for you, dyno tuning, etc.

                      There is a 2-port RAM that I could buy and replace the ROM, called a "romulator". It can be updated by the TunerProRT software on the fly- while driving. That would be too distracting, but you could do it at stop signs, lights, pull over, etc., but you can run auto-tuning software that does a much better job of optimizing. In the '94 computer there's really only 1 parameter that is learned, and there are only 16 "cells" for long-term storage. It's very coarse and crude.

                      As far as I can tell, GM OBD2 is the only one needing a very expensive interface to reflash the program / parameters. Very frustrating. An alternate approach that some have done is to desolder the FLASH chip in the PCM and program it in a standard programmer. I may do that, and install a socket. It's still pretty labor intensive to just change some tuning parameters. There's supposedly a "back door" into the CPU in the PCM meant for software development. Soon I will buy a spare PCM and try that approach. I just wish I could buy a programming interface, like most other cars in the world, for $50.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:37AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:37AM (#751611)

          How do they force a person to install a dongle?

          Around here they tried to carrot people with the 'install this box and we'll lower your premiums' but it didn't work once people realised they were being tracked.

          If I had to 'install a dongle' I would either cripple it, or change the port where it is plugged in so it looks like it is working but actually isn't.

          Here's a nice article:
          https://jalopnik.com/progressive-insurances-driver-tracking-tool-is-ridicul-1680720690 [jalopnik.com]

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:33PM

            by dry (223) on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:33PM (#751719) Journal

            How do they force a person to install a dongle?

            By making it so you can't buy insurance without using a dongle and illegal to drive (on public roads) without insurance is one simple way.
            You're right that blowback may stop them.

  • (Score: 2) by Snotnose on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:17AM

    by Snotnose (1623) on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:17AM (#751236)

    Used to burn CDs and listen to them, then my CD player died and I spent way too $$$ (Infiniti G35, radio is part of the temperature control) much replacing it with a unit that uses a USB drive.

    Clearchannel destroyed radio, now the one station I'd like to listen to is an iHeart station, which is what Clearchannel rebranded themselves to, so so sad too bad fuck off. I don't plan to spend either an single penny, nor a second of thought, to supporting these assholes.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by black6host on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:23AM (6 children)

    by black6host (3827) on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:23AM (#751237) Journal

    What network are they using to upload 600GB a day? Can I get it for my house. Wirelessly? How do they calculate this stuff. I can't find anything but an old article from 2015 saying connected vehicles could upload up to 10GB an hour. Well, you'd need 60 an hour for ten hours of driving to get 600GB.

    And where's the backup for McKinsey's estimate. From TFA:

    According to research firm McKinsey, connected cars create up to 600GB of data per day

    I'm open for edification...

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by black6host on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:28AM

      by black6host (3827) on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:28AM (#751238) Journal

      Sorry, reread summary. Still, 600GB over Wi-Fi a day? You'd have to be out driving all day so you'd not have access to Wi-Fi at that time...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:34AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:34AM (#751239)

      There are hundreds of sensors monitored by dozens of computers in the new cars. That's not counting the twenty or so cameras in and on the car. Each is generating a stream of telemetry while the car is on. I suspect that some sensors and their computers run while the car is off too and that others record audio.

      It'd be most enlightening to see the fine print on the GM sales contracts or screen the click-throughs. However it would be unsurprising to find that they treat those customer sales contracts as trade secrets now.

    • (Score: 4, Funny) by c0lo on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:36AM (1 child)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:36AM (#751240) Journal

      I can't find anything but an old article from 2015 saying connected vehicles could upload up to 10GB an hour. Well, you'd need 60 an hour for ten hours of driving to get 600GB.

      Or, you know, one can drive for 60hours every day.

      (grin)

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 3, Funny) by Nerdfest on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:59AM

      by Nerdfest (80) on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:59AM (#751254)

      I'm guessing that's the data from *all the cars*. I had the same initial reaction. Englishing is hard.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:36AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:36AM (#751287)

      OnStar does you through LTE now, iirc. So that means it's probably a 4g link at the very least. I'm going to guess they have more than one channel too - one for your infotainment needs, which you can turn off, one for their car info monitoring, which you can't (but can't get anything for you through, either).

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by RandomFactor on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:39AM (15 children)

    by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 20 2018, @01:39AM (#751241) Journal

    Surveillance still requires one right?

    --
    В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:42AM (11 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:42AM (#751250)

      Where's the permission from the owner?
      ZIP code? I don't remember giving the seller of my vehicle permission to track where I am at any level of granularity.
      "used the car's built-in Wi-Fi signal to upload the data to its servers." - where did they get my permission to do this?

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:55AM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @02:55AM (#751253)
        Those who are capable of asking such questions do not buy a connected car. Or, in worst case, they replace its antenna with a termination [minicircuits.com].
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:03AM (6 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:03AM (#751255) Journal
          "replace its antenna with a termination [minicircuits.com]."

          A good start but insufficient. Unfortunately by the time you secure one of these traitor systems you'll have essentially re-engineered the entire car.

          I foresee nothing but vintage cars in my future.
          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Some call me Tim on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:47AM (4 children)

            by Some call me Tim (5819) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:47AM (#751262)

            His solution is perfectly acceptable. How much useful data can they get between the dealer and his home? When I bought a car with On-Star I pulled the antenna and installed a terminator as soon as I got home. Didn't want it and the dealer refused to disconnect it as it was so embedded in everything it would have caused problems (they said). Years later I got a recall notice notice that required an On-Star disconnect because they switched to digital and analog was no longer supported. I showed the mechanic what I did and he said I was good to go.

            --
            Questioning science is how you do science!
            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday October 20 2018, @04:21AM (3 children)

              by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 20 2018, @04:21AM (#751268) Journal
              The first problem that strikes me is that the data is still there - you're just blocking the default route of exfiltration. It's still sitting there waiting for the opportunity to transmit. And while I'm not sure exactly what the 'terminator' is supposed to do (page is pretty much a template without loading scripts) I've often seen radios work without a proper antenna or even a particularly good signal, at least for a few seconds here or there.

              It's nice that it's working for you (as far as you know) but I wouldn't count on it forever. Particularly with the next generation of cars.
              --
              If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
              • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @10:31AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @10:31AM (#751358)

                A couple of years back they were talking about putting wireless in all cars so they can all talk to each other. Your data gets replicated into cars that can upload.
                Good luck blocking that.

              • (Score: 2) by Knowledge Troll on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:06PM (1 child)

                by Knowledge Troll (5948) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:06PM (#751402) Homepage Journal

                In this context terminator replacing an antenna would be a dummy load. Terminator is an odd term for me in radio context because it makes it sound like it's the end of a SCSI chain but it would be correct because both a terminator and a dummy load should impedance match.

                A dummy load is a resistor that eats the radio power basically. They leak a little but not very much if you do it right.

                Radios with poor antennas or even no antennas would be operating in a high impedance or high SWR mode. It's fine for receive (can blow up the RF amp in transmit though) but performance is typically much worse than having a proper antenna.

                • (Score: 1) by Arik on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:36PM

                  by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:36PM (#751423) Journal
                  "A dummy load is a resistor that eats the radio power basically."

                  Exactly what I expected it to be then.

                  --
                  If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday October 21 2018, @12:10AM

            by RS3 (6367) on Sunday October 21 2018, @12:10AM (#751522)

            > I foresee nothing but vintage cars in my future.

            Yep, me too.

            The dummy load resistor is a great idea, but, ... I have right here an OBD2 tracker that looks like this: https://gotrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2_GotrackIMGobdfront.png [gotrack.com]

            The internal antenna is a PC board pattern. It appears to have 2- one looks much lower frequency. Obviously it can be buggered / terminated, but a bit more work and it will be obviously tampered with.

            If I'm ever forced into owning a car with built-in tracking, I'll have to build/buy an RF signal detector and find the thing(s). Not sure what will happen next...

        • (Score: 2) by stretch611 on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:39AM (1 child)

          by stretch611 (6199) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:39AM (#751261)

          Not sure if it is still true, but Onstar used to be able to be disabled on many GM cars just by pulling a single circuit breaker for it and not affect other systems.

          I would assume that this is how they transfer all the data and should do the trick. (otherwise, a 2nd circuit breaker may need pulling.)

          --
          Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
        • (Score: 2) by Some call me Tim on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:53AM

          by Some call me Tim (5819) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:53AM (#751263)

          I love Mini Circuits! Their LNAs are rock solid. Rebuilt a telemetry feed using their stuff and got a 30% increase in usable signal over the factory crap. That was a fun job ;-).

          --
          Questioning science is how you do science!
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:37AM (2 children)

      by fyngyrz (6567) on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:37AM (#751288) Journal

      Surveillance still requires [a warrant] right?

      Surveillance by the government does, yes. Not that they will always comply, of course — that idea is laughable. However, you sign a contract with a private corporation and manage to give away your data, no warrant required, the corporation has it. And will probably sell it. To anyone. Including the government. It's not yours at that point, they can do what they want.

      Don't like it? Stop voting for these rich, powerful assholes, and vote for people who actually have your interests at heart. That might even work. Speaking to the general "you" there, not necessarily you in particular. For all I know, you vote sanely. But more people need to.

      • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:55AM

        by Nuke (3162) on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:55AM (#751341)

        Don't like it? Stop voting for these rich, powerful assholes, and vote for people who actually have your interests at heart. That might even work.

        No it won't, even if there were such a thing as people who have your interests at heart. And even if there are actually people who really and sincerely believe they have your interests at heart because in the end they assume that you interests align with their own, a common delusion. History is full of wave after wave of such people, such as the French and Russian revolutionaries, and in modern times organisations such as Greenpeace.

        The effect of voting, if any, takes a long time to to have any effect on corruptations, I mean corporations, and any effect will be feeble. It's like trying to wash the litter off the beach at Benidorm by making a ripple at Southampton.

        Better to use direct methods like undermining their data by poisoning the well, or cutting off your supply to it as much as possible. I have complete sets of false data that I use as far as possible with, for example, web sites that ask me my name, age and location, even if answering is optional.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:25AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:25AM (#751605)

        What contract?
        Go to a dealership, choose a car, sign the government papers, pay for it, walk away. Right?
        What contract?

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by stretch611 on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:34AM (7 children)

    by stretch611 (6199) on Saturday October 20 2018, @03:34AM (#751259)

    You know that your insurance company would love to get their hands on this data.

    Anything to show that you might be a bad driving risk and up go your rates.

    GPS shows you frequent a bad part of town? Increases theft risk... higher rates.

    Volume level too loud? Can't hear another horn... higher rate.

    Constantly changes channels? Hands are off the wheel and unsafe... higher rate.

    Too many doughnut/fast food stops? Increased chance of heart attack behind the wheel... higher rate.

    Not to mention all the finer points of GPS behind the wheel... Quick acceleration? Sudden Stops? Speeding over the limit on the current road? Higher rates.

    Yes, the car insurance companies are having a wet dream over this data... So is GM for being able to name their price to sell it to them.

    --
    Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
    • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:31AM (2 children)

      by Nuke (3162) on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:31AM (#751336)

      Volume level too loud? Can't hear another horn... higher rate.

      I've just been watching some police chase videos on Youtube. It is scarcely believable, and heart-stopping, how many incidental cars casually pull out in front of a 100+ mph chase, or between the culprit and the police chase car(s), despite full siren(s) and blues going. These people must be deaf, daft, blind, or have the radio on at loud volume, or some combination of those.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:58PM (#751434)

        > despite full siren(s) and blues going.

        Yeah, sometimes I blast the blues on my car stereo.

        In some states, cop lights are red.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @06:23PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @06:23PM (#751442)

        > It is scarcely believable, and heart-stopping, how many incidental cars casually pull out in front of a 100+ mph chase

        Think of it from on the ground. Above a certain age you can hear the sirens but not be quite sure where they are coming from. If the chase is traveling at 100MPH in a a 30MPH or 40MPH zone, they're not going to even be in sight before it's too late to react anyway. So not seeing any dangerous vehicles and not being sure which direction or how far away the sirens are, of course you will pull out. In the city you'd never get anywhere if you had to wait for all the sirens to stop. Same for waiting a few minutes after every speeder or light runner passed.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @12:24PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @12:24PM (#751378)

      Insurance companies collect statistics on everything and if you are doing something that increases your chance of getting into an accident, why wouldn't they raise rates. I would if I were running a business. Insurance is one of the most regulated industries.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:41PM (#751424)

      yes, i would be uninsurable from the g's i pull alone. :)

    • (Score: 2) by dry on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:53PM (1 child)

      by dry (223) on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:53PM (#751431) Journal

      The insurance people will force you to install their own dongle so they don't have to buy it from GM. Already happening with the promise of lower rates, eventually they'll arrange a law when the carrot doesn't work good enough.

      • (Score: 2) by stretch611 on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:05PM

        by stretch611 (6199) on Saturday October 20 2018, @07:05PM (#751452)

        I drive a 5.7l, 368hp hemi engine... It was put into a shell known as a Dodge Charger....

        Just a minimal tap on the gas pedal can make it accelerate like a cheetah. There is no way I am putting one of the insurance company dongles into it.

        Personally, I am glad "my engine" masquerading as a car does not have internet connectivity or a Onstar like system over the cellular network. And the car has a powertrain warranty for life (only for the original owner, not transferable) so I do not foresee needing to replace the car until after an uber-like company with self driving cars becomes the normal way of transportation for the masses.

        And sadly, yes, my car always makes the top 5 expensive cars to insure... high theft rate and big engines make the insurance companies salivate like Pavlov's dogs. But the large size fits me (barely, with me at 6'11") so my options are limited... (I have also owned Cadillacs, but they aren't as big as they used to be, and SUVs are larger on the outside, not necessarily the inside; not to mention that SUVs are nothing more than a tall station wagon.)

        --
        Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:22AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:22AM (#751283)

    I can't afford a new car.

    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:56AM (2 children)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:56AM (#751297) Homepage Journal

      But if you are handy with tools, I'll be happy to lend you mine. I've got some extra as I inherited some from my father, and from his father.

      That way we can both buy thousand-dollar beaters that don't come with wireless spy gadgets.

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:24AM (#751321)

        Thanks a lot, but I'm saving my money to buy a house when the market crashes again.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Nuke on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:39AM

        by Nuke (3162) on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:39AM (#751337)

        I've never bought a new car in my life, despite the fact I could now afford even most top-of-the range ones cash down. Because the price of cars drops like a brick once they are used a bit, especially up-market ones (they can end up cheaper than originally down-market ones), and if you look around you with a bit of knowledge and patience you can find low-mileage and cared-for ones that are as good as new at a quarter of the price. I'd rather spend the money on other things. Customer impatience and enthusiasm are the friend of car dealers.

  • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:55AM (1 child)

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Saturday October 20 2018, @05:55AM (#751296) Homepage Journal
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:40AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @08:40AM (#751325)

      A blacklist is good if you think most web pages out there are run by decent honest people and you only need to weed out the few rotten apples.

      On the other hand if you have a sane outlook that most of the internet is a dangerous wasteland, you invest in a whitelist and only explicitly trust websites. For this purpose for your Mozilla Firefox web browser you could use uMatrix. [mozilla.org]

      (Having said that, a browser extension obviously only affects the browser whereas the hosts file is a system wide solution... so apples and oranges. You can do both.)

  • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:22AM (1 child)

    by Nuke (3162) on Saturday October 20 2018, @09:22AM (#751332)

    GM captured minuted details such as station selection, volume level

    Here's my radio data : I never turn the radio on.

    Suck that up and use it how you like. There will be no fee.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @10:34AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20 2018, @10:34AM (#751361)

      do you think they care?

  • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Saturday October 20 2018, @06:46PM (2 children)

    by meustrus (4961) on Saturday October 20 2018, @06:46PM (#751446)

    As someone who owned a used vehicle with OnStar, I can tell you that the contract you sign for that service is very explicit about this kind of data collection. There are probably about 90,000 vehicles with active subscriptions out there.

    I decided not to pay a monthly fee to let GM conduct surveillance on me just in case I’m in an accident and my phone isn’t good enough to call for help. But of course *some* people do pay for it.

    --
    If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:29AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 21 2018, @10:29AM (#751609)

      Why would anyone sign that?

      • (Score: 2) by meustrus on Monday October 22 2018, @03:40PM

        by meustrus (4961) on Monday October 22 2018, @03:40PM (#752014)

        Some people like paying for a feeling of safety and security, and plenty of companies are happy to convince these people they are unsafe or insecure. Some people never read contracts, and plenty of companies are happy to throw in broad waivers among the miles of legal boilerplate.

        You are looking for the intersection of these groups.

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
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