Gab cries foul as Pennsylvania attorney general subpoenas DNS provider
Pennsylvania attorney general Josh Shapiro is probing Gab's relationship with its new domain name provider, Epik. A subpoena sent to Epik, dated Wednesday, seeks "any and all documents which are related in any way to Gab." In a statement to Ars, Gab described the investigation as a "baseless, political, and emotionally-driven witch hunt."
[...] Eric Goldman, a legal scholar at Santa Clara University, told us that the law is clear that Gab would not be liable for hosting content from the Pittsburgh shooter. Not only are the posts likely protected by the First Amendment, but a law called Section 230 gives service providers like Gab—not to mention upstream service providers like GoDaddy and Epik—an extra layer of protection against liability for user-submitted content.
So then what is Pennsylvania's attorney general investigating? Shapiro's office hasn't returned emails and a phone call asking about that. But two legal scholars I talked to for this story couldn't think of a legitimate reason for seeking these kinds of documents. "I struggle to see a legit basis for this," said Ken White, a First Amendment attorney and the proprietor of the popular Popehat blog. Seeking information about Gab's DNS provider "doesn't make any sense at all," legal scholar Eric Goldman told us. In another now-deleted tweet, Gab described the subpoena as a form of harassment. Could this be an attempt to punish Epik for doing business with Gab? Goldman described this as plausible and said that this kind of tactic could raise First Amendment issues. [...] Goldman doubted that an attorney general sending out subpoenas would be enough, on its own, to violate the First Amendment. But if it were part of a broader campaign to discourage providers from doing business with Gab, that could raise significant free speech concerns.
Previously: Social Media and the Pittsburgh Shooter: Gab.com Going Down
Gab's Plan To Use Blockchain To Make Itself Indestructible
Gab is Back
Related Stories
The social network gab.com is apparently going down on Monday, October 29th at 09:00 ET. Their ISP has terminated their services, ostensibly because Robert Bowers, the Pittsburgh mass shooting suspect, had made offensive posts on Gab.
To get this out of the way: I have mixed feelings about Gab, more specifically, about the founders. However, the idea that some social network somewhere should refuse to censor anything that is not outright illegal? This is good. Social media has become the modern "market square", and free speech should be guaranteed, even if the platforms are technically private.
If you want free speech, you apparently don't want to be in the U.S.
From the very richest Forbes Magazine (reprint) come news of a nefarious plot:
There's no better example of the power, and the terror, inspired by blockchain than Gab.com, the social network used by the accused Pittsburgh synagogue gunman to threaten Jews.
About a month and a half before the alleged gunman made good on those threats by opening fire in a Pittsburgh synagogue and killing 11 people, Gab submitted paperwork to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission to raise $10 million via an initial coin offering (ICO). The offering, dated September 18, 2018, has so far received commitments to raise $5.6 million in capital for the "free speech" social network, which is a favorite of white supremacists, neo-Nazis and other members of the "alt-right."
Since the shooting on Saturday, Gab has been shut down by a host of mainstream services including payment processors Stripe and Paypal, Web-hosting company Joyent and briefly, domain registry GoDaddy. But that might not matter, because Gab has already taken the first step toward freeing itself from dependence on traditional infrastructure and support mechanisms, thanks to its funding via the ethereum blockchain. Ultimately Gab's goal is to build an entire ecosystem beyond the reach of centralized authorities—whether Facebook, Twitter or venture capitalists—making it nearly indestructible. On this, the tenth anniversary of the publication of Satoshi Nakamoto's whitepaper, which gave birth to bitcoin, Gab epitomizes the darker consequences of his vision.
[...] Gab can also use other blockchain services if mainstream providers try to kick it off the internet by refusing to provide critical services. If Gab needs to replace GoDaddy for domain service (the addresses people use to find websites), Ethereum Name Service provides domains for decentralized applications built on the ethereum blockchain. Web hosting? No problem. Ethereum's Substratum provides a decentralized alternative to Joyent. Others have already pioneered the idea. PeepEth is a nascent ethereum-powered social network, and Mastadon is a blockchain-based Twitter.
Previously: Social Media and the Pittsburgh Shooter: Gab.com Going Down
Why Epik welcomed Gab.com
This post will summarize why Epik welcomed Gab.com. It will also address why I believe the operators of the site have the right to be online.
epik.com
So, who the heck is Epik? Never heard of them.
After GoDaddy cut ties following Pittsburgh shooting, Gab back online thanks to Seattle startup
A Seattle startup has inked a deal to host domain registrar services for Gab.com, the site that was dropped by GoDaddy and other companies in the wake of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting.
www.geekwire.com
The story is here: https://epik.com/blog/why-epik-welcomed-gab-com.html
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @01:19AM (7 children)
Now I have to stick up for that rat-infested shithole of a site.
(Score: 5, Informative) by takyon on Friday November 09 2018, @01:30AM
I didn't expect that we would see another story on Gab so soon, but then this attorney general had to strut his stuff.
A domain name provider in Washington state choosing to do business with Gab is no business of the Pennsylvania attorney general.
I'd compare this to the multiple state attorney generals severely overreaching to try to tie up Defense Distributed in the courts. The Ars article also brings up Backpage:
Finally, I looked at Epik's site. Free WHOIS privacy for all customers, what looks like standard prices for domain names, and an option for paying once and holding a domain "forever". I might go with them the next time I need a domain.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @02:01AM (3 children)
Aww, the rats are downvoting.
Know why I called you rats and never gave you name despite your many tell-tale traits? Because to me you're just rats! You're only special to other rats.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Friday November 09 2018, @02:47AM (2 children)
Click on your comment #, and you'll see that exactly one "rat" downmodded you. Not plural.
I wouldn't extrapolate based on a single mod point.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @04:50AM
Where did you hide my "+/-Disinformative" mod?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:27PM
Behind every downmod is a festering nest of rat nazis.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @02:32AM
This story is not about Huffpo, friend.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @09:56AM
Maybe it's a clever marketing campaign for a right wing containment board.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @01:24AM (1 child)
Sounds like - HARASSMENT!
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @01:26AM
If anyone would know it'd be you.
Tell us more tales from your wizened perspective!
(Score: 2, Informative) by jmorris on Friday November 09 2018, @01:36AM (14 children)
So a grandstanding Atty Gen with dreams of higher office can now issue real subpoenas anywhere in the country? Or is that another "just for Democrats" rule? Or is this an obviously unenforceable "request" thing that can safely be filed in the round filing cabinet?
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @02:05AM (1 child)
Differences aside, democrats are exactly the same as republicans.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @07:03PM
Thanks, this made me chuckle.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @02:34AM (1 child)
Gab is headquartered in Philly, so I assume that gives him the authority to do so. I anal and all that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @04:09AM
He's just grandstanding. He literally doesn't even have a case.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @02:35AM (9 children)
That crossed my mind. Note, however, that the Penna AG has no jurisdiction outside of Pennsylvania. He can't enforce any subpoenas in Washington. You or I can do the same thing. Either of us can mail off subpoenas to - ohhhhhh - Ncommander for instance. Our subpoenas would lack any recognized credentials of course, but we can mail off requests, any time we like. And, Ncommander can use those requests in any manner he likes, including using as toilet paper.
There IS an issue here, in that the AG has an official document, all properly endorsed with cool looking stamps and shit. Personally, I would file and ignore his requests. Or, at most, inform my attorney of the subpoenas, then ignore them.
Epik would have more of a problem if the subpoena were issued by a federal agency.
Bottom line here, it seems, is that the AG has zero freaking hope of finding anything, even if Epik were to cooperate. Gab is in need of an online host because they've been booted from their old host. So, Epik has an application, and a payment on file, and perhaps a couple of more personal emails. Whoop-ti-do - the AG expects to make something of that? This is what Epik DOES, FFS.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Friday November 09 2018, @02:44AM (4 children)
Maybe the Penn AG expects to find back-and-forth emails detailing Epik's full support for a violent campaign of racial cleansing in the U.S.! After all, their staff is all-white [epik.com]! The CEO's name is Rob MONSTER, and the CFO is Clif BEER (alcoholic?!)!
Or they could just be a privacy-oriented domain name provider showing off their commitment to free speech [epik.com]. But we need an extralegal fishing expedition to make sure.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday November 09 2018, @05:45AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by takyon on Friday November 09 2018, @05:58AM
It's not natural, it's supernatural! 🎃👻👽
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by VLM on Friday November 09 2018, @12:29PM (1 child)
Josh Shapiro is Jewish according to votesmart.org so it could be as simple as the very common Jewish hatred of white people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:36PM
Ahhh, there's the little chicken fucker racist.
Just to make sure I understood your context I searched, and what did I find? NOTHING! The only use of "white" is with "Ken White" the person.
I guess racism just can't keep itself hidden, shit bags need to share their *very insightful* realizations with the world /s
(Score: 1) by Acabatag on Friday November 09 2018, @02:50AM
There IS an issue here, in that the AG has an official document, all properly endorsed with cool looking stamps and shit. Personally, I would file and ignore his requests.
If the document is cool enough looking, I would sell it on eBay. There have to be tons of people who collect 'official paper' who would pay a hefty amount for it. The money can fund gab.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @03:45AM (1 child)
I wonder about that. Wouldn't you be impersonating an officer of the court (i.e., lawyer) -- that might have consequences attached.
By the same token, is a lawyer who issues subpoenas outside the permissible bounds for such things, also guilty of something?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @04:04AM
If, within the body of the subpoena, I were to represent myself as an officer of any official organization, then yes - I would be liable for impersonating whatever I claimed to be. If, on the other hand, I represented myself as a Sovereign Citizen, then no - there would be no liability.
Your second question - of course he is guilty. The problem is, lawyers and the legal system are going to defend that lawyer's "right" to make those inquiries. Legal people are mostly untouchable, after all.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday November 09 2018, @11:33PM
I thought we had previously discussed the validity of legal opinions from Runaway. Amicus curiae does not mean what you think it means, Oh one of the crossed mind!
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @03:39AM (18 children)
Watch them downvote all posts critical of gab, including this one.
(Score: 3, Touché) by takyon on Friday November 09 2018, @03:45AM (1 child)
1 dowmod on a post critical of Gab, 3 upmods on that same post.
It seems you are the butthurt one.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:41PM
That wasn't the same AC pal.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @03:51AM (14 children)
Critical of gab is alright. You may criticize anyone, and anything, including the President of the United States. We all do it.
Where most of us draw the line, is when you approve of censorship. Some of us think you look like an idiot when you portray Gab as a bunch of fascists and neonazis. I have repeatedly compared Gab to Stormfront. Maybe you should visit each of those sites, and read, and compare them. Stormfront is very openly racist, and white supremacist. They are very openly fascist and Nazi. Gab? It seems the majority of them share some of Stormfront's ideas, but they are NOT all out white supremacists. Yeah, a few of them are - you can find them if you like.
After you've read them some, test this: Open an account on each site, and make posts contrary to popular opinion on the site.
Stormfront will ban you in a heartbeat. No explanation, no apology, no nothing - your ass is just gone.
Gab might ban you, some day, after you've made a real effort to be an ass.
All of that may be too subtle for you to grasp, so I'll spell it out. Gab is sick of the current climate of political correctness, and they are rebelling against it. Stormfront, on the other hand, consists of the most toxic world views that ever existed. Pretty much everyone at Stormfront would approve of, if not actually advocate, mass genocides of multiple peoples.
If you can't understand the differences, then you shouldn't be out here, amongst adults, making noise while the adults talk. Please go to your room, and try growing a little bit.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday November 09 2018, @04:34AM (3 children)
So, you say expressions "contrary to popular opinion on the site" makes one an ass?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @03:47PM (2 children)
Nope, not at all. You and I can disagree, all day long, and on into the night, and remain pretty civil. Well, unless we start drinking, right? But, going onto a site, and disagreeing in uncivil ways will indeed get you banned, eventually, when everyone has had enough. In regards to calling people Nazis and such, there really is no way to be civil about it.
BTW - you realize that several rather famous Dems have said that they have some kind of "right" to be uncivil?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:44PM (1 child)
Did you just advocate for deplatforming people???? TRAITOR! 1st Amendment! Fascist authoritarian banning accounts cuz of yer feeeelz
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @06:57PM
If I ever develop a case of butthurt, I'll call you to apply some salve for me.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @04:47AM
And you think using "mass genocides of multiple peoples" makes you an adult.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Friday November 09 2018, @05:07AM (4 children)
Nah, you only get banned on Gab for outright illegal crap or doxxing. That is the extent of their bannings to date. Except for Weev, Torba got tired of his antics and everybody knew Weev lives to be banned anyway, it is his thing, so give him his martyrdom before his "edginess" brings the Feds.
We WANT more Proggies and Normies to join. Much like this place wouldn't be any fun without the range of users we have, Gab still has too much an echo chamber amongst the "Legions of the Damned" who are there because they can't get fresh Twitter or Facebook accounts anymore. Too many posts are reposts of a tweet with commentary that can no longer be said on twitter.
But Gab isn't even close to the most "out there" on the Internet. Before the paywall went up MyPostingCareer was insane in every sense of the word. Now? Who knows, ain't IDing myself to what is probably a honeypot just to read the funny nuggets in amongst the crazy. There is a gab account that posts a few daily "nuggets of wisdom" from MPC though, so there is apparently still some zany goings on behind the wall.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday November 09 2018, @05:39AM (1 child)
Somehow I doubt this. Someone should do the obvious experiment: have a bunch of unreconstructed Marxists, or people pretending to be such because I've honestly never met one, sign up. Get the "all PiV sex is rape!" woman in there too. Let them post all over the place, not to spam or troll, but to match the "kill the kikes!" types in volume and stridency. And see what happens. I bet the banhammer comes out so quick it leaves a trail of Cherenkov radiation (think about the phrasing of that for a moment...).
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Touché) by jmorris on Friday November 09 2018, @06:03AM
Nah. All those banned twitter trolls would LOVE to have people to trigger. Nothing stopping ya from making an account and stirring up the frogs. Go see if you can get yourself banned. Or at least stir some crap. But beware, there be some fell monsters lurking that are hard core experienced Internet trolls, you might find yourself fleeing in tears if ya really piss some of them off.
Pick yer flavor of Nazis you would like to tangle with and go for it. They got em. Actual Nazi-Nazis, Neo-Nazis, Neon-Nazis, Anime-Nazis, Ironic-Nazis, LARP-Nazis, Wannabe-Nazis. They got sexists of every stripe if you would prefer mud wrestling them, homophobes, general bigots, nationalists of a half dozen flavors, etc.
Of course they also got basic bitch Republicans / Conservatives, Reactionaries of every sort, Moderates, Christians of very stripe, a few Jews, Muslims, etc., and there ARE already a few Progs. Just not enough to make it fun and most are obvious plants, bots and shills. In short they are growing thousands of accounts per day and accelerating as all this publicity has driven in the curious and twitter keeps sending over new recruits daily. "Hi everybody, I was finally permabanned by Jack so checking this place out." is a common introduction post.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @07:13AM
So much for the freedom of speech, then.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday November 09 2018, @11:39PM
Curious, such perspicacity is unusual among the truly depraved and delusional deplorables. Damned legions, you say?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday November 09 2018, @11:58AM
I created an account there because I detest censorship. I posted a couple times to say that's why I did so, but don't expect to post much more than that. You can't really discuss anything there, and narcissism isn't my thing.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday November 09 2018, @12:35PM (2 children)
Seems very unlikely. As a counterexample, obviously the leftists have killed vastly more people, caused more suffering, caused more environmental damage, etc.
Read your old testament, again there's worse people out there. As an example, the Soviets actually accomplished worse.
Mere anti-right propaganda, nothing to do with moral virtues or whatevs.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 09 2018, @03:56PM
Let me think that one over. It was Nazis who invaded Russia, right? Can't remember for certain - didn't 16 million Russians die before the last Nazi was booted out of Russia? Or, maybe 16 million was total Russian losses throughout the war. That almost matches the 20 million Russians killed off by the Soviet. Add in the 6 million Jews, queers, Gypsies, etc, and the Nazis have exceeded the Soviet for deaths.
Old testament? Which people, exactly, do you think are "worse" than either Nazis or communists? Maybe we would have to agree what "worse" means. It would be a little difficult to find anyone in the Bible who managed to kill 20 million people. The world population just wasn't that high back then. An entire dynasty, back then, would have worked very hard to kill that many people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:48PM
Hi dummy, I see you're posting more of your dummy stuff. You know they have a cream for your condition now?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @10:56AM
I see an butthurt of all except Gab fans. It looks like we roll heavy cannons to take down one small social site for something loosely related to it, while another one led by Zuckerberg is hosting lots of illegal content and in fact is destroying half of the Internet. This is illogical.
I see two things which may happen unofficially. First, Gab may be too lazy in selling users information like Facebook does so companies or intelligence want to destroy it. Second, FB just wants to get rid of competitors which have significantly lower entry level for new users than e.g. GNU Social or Diaspora in which you have to set up own dedicated server to seriously use it.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday November 09 2018, @12:43PM (2 children)
Legalese for "all of them". Every document I have for my business is technically related in some way to every other document, so gimmie all of it.
Its a doxxing fishing expedition. They want to do the antifa punishment thing to someone not leftist enough in the opinion of the red guards/KGB. Literally a lynch mob mentality. They probably want to beat up the companies tax accountant or vandalize their custodians car for intimidation purposes.
Taking a step back, actions like this inevitably lead to ovens, eventually. Its funny how ovens are blamed on right wing bad think or bad speech or lack of holiness signalling, but its actually the left wings actions that cause it. You can't have ovens because of mere speech; its takes left wing violence in the streets to result in ovens and camps. Fairly tragic, but is it possible to stop destiny?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @04:19PM (1 child)
It's not a Left vs Right thing.
It's a statist thing. Latin America and Spain have a long history of right wing dictatorships. Throw in some left wing ones as well.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @06:51PM
Don't try and reason with the troll, just insult it and move on. VLM is a racist moron parroting stupid talking points.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 09 2018, @08:15PM
Especially the ones you dislike. That is the entire point of the first amendment. ( and since we are talking government involvement here, we can actually cry 'free speech' concerns. )