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posted by mrpg on Monday November 12 2018, @07:49AM   Printer-friendly
from the and-watches-know-you're-getting-old dept.

Submitted via IRC for Bytram

Smartwatches know you're getting a cold days before you feel ill

Once we had palm-reading, now we have smartwatches. Wearable tech can now detect when you’re about to fall ill, simply by tracking your vital signs.

Michael Snyder at Stanford University in California experienced this first-hand last year. For over a year he had been wearing seven sensors to test their reliability, when suddenly they began to show abnormal readings. Even though he felt fine, the sensors showed that his heart was beating faster than normal, his skin temperature had risen, and the level of oxygen in his blood had dropped.

“That’s what first alerted me that something wasn’t quite right,” says Snyder. He wondered whether he might have caught Lyme disease from a tick during a recent trip to rural Massachusetts.

A mild fever soon followed, and Snyder asked a doctor for the antibiotic doxycycline, which can be used to treat Lyme disease. His symptoms cleared within a day. Subsequent tests confirmed his self-diagnosis.


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by ledow on Monday November 12 2018, @08:20AM (9 children)

    by ledow (5567) on Monday November 12 2018, @08:20AM (#760837) Homepage

    Yeah, that's all we need.

    Everyone to start listening to their watches and then asking for antibiotics. Sure, in this case, there was reason to suspect something more and it happened to be right. But it could also have been a cold.

    Maybe in places that have insured healthcare they WANT you to worry and go to your doctor and ask for medicine, but everywhere else would really rather you just got on with life and sought medical help only when required, or prescribe antibiotics only when absolutely required rather than for every sniffle your watch tells you you might have. Lyme disease is very treatable anyway.

    • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Monday November 12 2018, @09:21AM (4 children)

      by isostatic (365) on Monday November 12 2018, @09:21AM (#760850) Journal

      Is it normal in the States to give antibiotics out to anyone who asks for them?

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @12:15PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @12:15PM (#760878)

        Is it normal in the States to give antibiotics out to anyone who asks for them?

        Yes.

        But in the developing world you just go and buy them instead of asking a doctor.

        • (Score: 2) by legont on Monday November 12 2018, @03:35PM

          by legont (4179) on Monday November 12 2018, @03:35PM (#760933)

          In most reasonable developing countries (as well as developed till recent madness) one goes to a pharmacists who reliably prescribes and sells medication in 99% of the cases referring the last 1% to a doctor. Our modern doctors are a scam and a device should easily do better.

          --
          "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 2) by legont on Monday November 12 2018, @03:25PM

        by legont (4179) on Monday November 12 2018, @03:25PM (#760930)

        Actually, we are strongly encouraged to take them on all occasions. The reason is, it greatly reduces doctor's liability.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by EvilSS on Monday November 12 2018, @06:35PM

        by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @06:35PM (#760997)
        In this case the person asking for them is a MD, PhD, professor and department chair at a top medical school. So in that case yea, you probably agree and give them.

        Unfortunately it's all to common for doctors to give in and give out Z-packs to annoying patients with no medical background as well.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @10:32AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @10:32AM (#760859)

      Lyme disease is very treatable anyway.

      Except when it isn't [wikipedia.org]:

      the severity and treatment of Lyme disease may be complicated due to late diagnosis, failure of antibiotic treatment, and simultaneous infection [..] less than 5% of people have lingering symptoms of fatigue, pain, or joint and muscle aches at the time they finish treatment. These symptoms can last for more than 6 months. [..] In rare cases, Lyme disease can be fatal to both humans and dogs

      • (Score: 2) by ledow on Monday November 12 2018, @01:41PM (2 children)

        by ledow (5567) on Monday November 12 2018, @01:41PM (#760901) Homepage

        I said very treatable. Not "perfectly cureable".

        In a modern developed country, Lyme disease really isn't much of an issue at all.

        https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-animal-associated-infections-quarterly-reports-2017 [www.gov.uk]

        "The number of cases confirmed by laboratory testing in the UK has risen from 346 in 2003 to about 1700 in 2017."

        To put that in perspective, there were 5,102 cases of TB in that year.

        And just because you have a reported case, it doesn't mean there were ANY serious consequences whatsoever. That's REPORTED / CONFIRMED CASES.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @07:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @07:52PM (#761020)

          "The number of cases confirmed by laboratory testing in the UK has risen from 346 in 2003 to about 1700 in 2017."

          Remember though, 20% of cases don't start with the tell-tale rash, and as the symptoms '..fever, chills, headache, fatigue, muscle and joint pain, and swollen lymph nodes' all present like a bout of the flu there's scope for misdiagnoses, especially when the Doctor has no call to suspect Lyme, e.g. Despite staying in a part of Britain regarded as being a High-Medium Lyme risk, I live on the outskirts of an ex-Industrial town, don't spend as much time as I used to wandering around the hills and countryside so I should be relatively safe, if it looks like I've got the flu, then it's probably the flu, but I get Red and Fallow deer in the garden all the time looking for food..so an early misdiagnoses of flu at this point isn't a good thing.

          Of course, the fun really starts when late disseminated Lyme kicks in, and that can be years after the bite, from a trawl of medical literature on this¹ I saw they're trying to get samples from people who suffer Bell’s palsy to see if there's a lot of undiagnosed Lyme disease going on.

          To put that in perspective, there were 5,102 cases of TB in that year.

          Aye, and the link between the increase in cases of TB (especially the drug-resistant strains) and the rise in immigrant numbers and the failure of the government to screen people from known drug-resistant TB hotspots is, as they say, a matter for another day.

          And just because you have a reported case, it doesn't mean there were ANY serious consequences whatsoever. That's REPORTED / CONFIRMED CASES.

          From one of the documents [service.gov.uk] you pointed to

          '..A total of 359 cases of laboratory confirmed Lyme disease were reported during the fourth quarter of 2017, compared with 267 cases reported in the same quarter of 2016. Of the 2017 cases, 243 were acute (including 17 with neuroborreliosis) and 116 were longstanding.'

          Note: 359 Diagnosed cases, 243 acute, of those 17 are seriously acute..

          The total figures for 2017 were 1534 cases of Lyme Disease, 1175 of them classed as acute, that's 76.6%.

          Taking your 1700 figure quoted of reported cases, that gives us 90% of reported infections confirmed, 69% of reported infections confirmed acute, from the last quarterly figures, assuming that the seriously acute percentage is more or less the same for the year (4.7% of the confirmed cases), that gives a figure of about 4.3% of reported infections being seriously acute.

          A clearer way of looking at it, of your 1700 reported cases, 166 were clean, 359 infected but easily treatable, 1093 classed as acute, 82 (extrapolated figure based on last quarter) seriously acute.

          ¹Current personal interest, my sister suddenly developed a number of the symptoms associated with late disseminated Lyme, Lyme was never a factor in any of the initial diagnoses of her condition (they've already ruled out the two initial suspected causes) but as there was ample opportunity for her to be bitten while in the garden or taking the dog for a walk, and as they say up to 50% of the people infected never remember a tick bite or rash, this is all still recent and ongoing.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 13 2018, @02:42AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 13 2018, @02:42AM (#761137)

          > In a modern developed country, Lyme disease really isn't much of an issue at all.

          It's an issue in modern, undeveloped countries. Lyme disease is now found in all 50 US states [mercola.com]. The density is worse in some states but it is there in all of them. In some areas if you get a tick you are very likely to get borreliosis. When left untreated the disease will rot your organs.

          There are also new, disease-ridden tics [cdc.gov] spreading like wildfire in just under a dozen states and growing.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:31AM (15 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:31AM (#760839)

    doctor is idiot because you do not give antibiotics to any idiot who asks for them. you only give them to someone who has an infection (confirmed by tests that you run yourself, not the idiot).

    snyder: fuck you and fuck your seven sensors. you're not a medical doctor and your sensors are not a medical doctor either.
    if you actually want to help people, talk to medical doctors and psychologists BEFORE you start exposing laypeople to numbers they cannot process.
    it's nice that you have nice sensors, but you're not qualified to diagnose limedisease.
    and no, the fact that it was confirmed afterwards does not qualify you.
    you are only qualified to notice something out of the ordinary, and then you can take that information to someone who knows what they're doing.

    oh, and for those who were wondering: elevated temperature and faster heart rate are symptoms of an infection (the fucking article actually says the smartwatches detect problems before the symptoms appear).

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:48AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:48AM (#760844)

      The thing is, doctors frequently don't know either.
      Now you have TWO people who think they know what is going on.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday November 12 2018, @09:01AM (1 child)

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday November 12 2018, @09:01AM (#760846) Homepage Journal

        I _personally_ know three women with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, a potentially fatal genetic condition which results in their entire bodies having shortages of collagen, the active ingredient in our connective tissue.

        Potentially fatal because in the very worst case, the mechanical structure of the heart is so weakened by its lack of collagen that it tears itself apart from its own beating.

        All three were repeatedly told they were imagining the illnesses. "But why can I tear my own skin off just by pinching it?" one repeatedly asked her doctors, "And why do I get sprained ankles so often?"

        When she had a sprained ankle, her doctors would immobilize it but not answer the question as to why they were sprained all the damn time.

        One finally got diagnosed because her arms and legs are too long in proportion to her body. She looks just like Phoebe's Unicorn [gocomics.com]. The one with all the sprained ankles finally got diagnosed so that she and her doctors knew what to do when one of her arteries spontaneously burst.

        While almost unknown to the public, Ehlers-Danlos is easy to find in children because they are naturally-born contortionists: they don't need to work up to it through yoga or gymnastic stretching, and so often enjoy showing off to their friends. But they should be discouraged from doing so as that injures them.

        Two of those women only know about their condition because I pointed it out to them, based on my experience with the sprained ankle one.

        That all three are women, I don't think is due to its genetics but just a coincidence.

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Magic Oddball on Monday November 12 2018, @09:49AM

          by Magic Oddball (3847) on Monday November 12 2018, @09:49AM (#760855) Journal

          Strange — I've read about EDS before, but this time when I refreshed my memory, I found it very strongly matches the problems my mother has had her whole life (joint hypermobility, fragile translucent skin, small palate, etc.). So, thanks for mentioning it; this might actually help in getting her the medical care she needs.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday November 12 2018, @08:49AM (3 children)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday November 12 2018, @08:49AM (#760845) Homepage Journal

      Living with Schizoaffective Disorder.

      Before publication, Kuro5hin stories could optionally spend up to twenty-four hours in the Edit Queue, where we would comment on them and the authors could still revise them, then up to thirty-six In Vote. A story could go to front page, to a section or it could be dumped.

      Some joker voted against my story because as he said, I was not a mental health professional and so unqualified to write about mental illness. I Am Absolutely Serious.

      The notion that only doctors are qualified to diagnose is a fiction that the doctors maintain so as to protect their jobs. Same reason they were so resistant to nurse practitioners being given licenses to prescribe.

      Now both my prescribers are nurse practitioners. IMHO for what I actually see them for, they are just as good as MDs.

      Suppose you and one of your very few friends were stranded on an island but with your no-longer-seaworthy vessel well-equipped with medicine and medical gear. What would you do if your buddy got sick?

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:54AM (#760856)

        There's a difference between "stranded on an island" and this situation.
        And there's also a difference between you and this snyder person.

        You are living with a condition that has already been diagnosed by mental health professionals.
        Because you are living with it, you have learned a lot about it already.
        I will note that despite of this, you yourself have stated on this site that there are still times when you don't realize you are in a manic state (and you spend all your savings).

        In any case: when we discuss chronic disorders, obviously the patient may learn about their condition, to the point where they are able to tweak day-to-day treatments without input from a doctor.
        Michael Snyder is a geneticist, apparently with a love of smartwatches, and quite smart. He was able to correctly guess his condition mostly because he knew he'd been bitten by a tick, and the only newsworthy thing is that his sensors detected the symptoms before he could realize something was wrong by himself. But he then proceeded to ask for antibiotics before a proper test was performed, and he was given these antibiotics. This is wrong, because we already have antibiotic resistant bugs in hospitals killing people.

        And of course if you're on an island with only a couple of friends, you do the best that you can. But you always pick the best candidate for the job.
        Medicine is hard and you need to memorize a lot of facts because the system being worked on is so ridiculously complicated.
        Individual humans will generally fail to make correct causal links when it comes to the human body, hence my annoyance.
        People are dumb enough to give money to churches and palm-readers.
        If a university professor starts saying "hey everyone, forget about going to the doctor on regular visits, just use this here smartwatch", then most people will be happy for the excuse.
        Even if he follows up with "but when the smartwatch does notice something, do run it by your doctor", most people will not listen, because that's the way that people work.
        And, as a university professor, he should know better.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:59AM (#760857)

        At least with antibiotics, you should be sure that you have an infection that warrants it (note: Not just any infection, but an infection that is so bad that antibiotics are necessary). Antibiotics are invaluable for fighting deceases that are hard to fight otherwise. But only as long as they actually work. And giving antibiotics when they are not needed allow bacteria to get resistant. And that is what you definitely not want when a serious infection hits.

        I actually had Lyme once. Now I didn't self-diagnose from sensor data, but from the typical red spot around a tick bite (which I hadn't previously identified as such). I went to my doctor, who did a test for it. The test then said that it is lyme, and then he gave me antibiotics. That's how it should be. If the doctor had given me the antibiotics before the diagnosis, it would have been wrong.

        Note that I'm not against self-diagnosis in general. But antibiotics are a very special weapon. A powerful weapon which is in danger of getting blunt from overuse. And that is why it should only be used after being sure that it is (a) necessary, and (b) adequate (for example, many people wrongly think that you can fight a virus infection with antibiotics).

        Suppose you and one of your very few friends were stranded on an island but with your no-longer-seaworthy vessel well-equipped with medicine and medical gear. What would you do if your buddy got sick?

        Suppose you were in a desert, had not have anything to drink for two days, and then you find dirty water, would you drink it? Does that mean it is generally a good idea to drink dirty water?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @08:36PM (#761034)

        The notion that only doctors are qualified to diagnose is a fiction that the doctors maintain so as to protect their jobs.

        And let's not forget their dirty little internet secret [isabelhealthcare.com]
        (Most probably one amongst many, so much for denigrating the internet when patients use it for self diagnosing..)

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by RS3 on Monday November 12 2018, @01:41PM

      by RS3 (6367) on Monday November 12 2018, @01:41PM (#760900)

      You're far too self-confident.

      https://www.statnews.com/2017/06/28/early-lyme-tests/ [statnews.com]

      In the first three weeks after infection, the test only detects Lyme 29 to 40 percent of the time. (The test is 87 percent accurate once Lyme spreads to the neurological system, and 97 percent accurate for patients who develop Lyme arthritis). The CDC cautions that because the test is not likely to be positive until 4 to 6 weeks after infection, doctors who suspect Lyme based on symptoms should prescribe antibiotics even if the test is negative.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @02:37PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @02:37PM (#760912)

      you only give them to someone who has an infection (confirmed by tests that you run yourself, not the idiot)

      Tell that to someone who's wheelchair bound and regularly gets UTIs. Ableism at it's finest.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @05:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @05:31PM (#760976)

      yeah

      i am glad other people think and feel the same way as me. this fuckhead should not have received antibiotics simply because he asked for them or even waved his watch saying the computer i programmed cannot lie, give me what I demand.

      and the doctor should be punished publically and financially and a lesson be made out of him.

      it doesnt matter if the guy was right--all the quacks seeking to cash in on such success will not be. fuck them both for abusing the system. an accidentally good outcome (not even a blood test--just a suspicion--and not even the doctor's suspicion!) doesn't condone any of this behavior. no one should be rewarded for this. both should be punished and then yeah since the results from the sensors seemed to indicate 'a problem' that actually had no means to determine what was actually wrong--it would be good to determine what else can be discovered in conditions leading up to all sorts of illnesses. trusting the patient's belief they need a specific medicine should not be tolerated this way.

      smartphones are not wise. people need to be when using them to replace their smarts.

    • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday November 12 2018, @06:31PM (4 children)

      by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @06:31PM (#760996)

      snyder: fuck you and fuck your seven sensors. you're not a medical doctor and your sensors are not a medical doctor either.

      But Synder IS a medical doctor, as well as a professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine, and chair of the Genetics department, and director of the Center for Genomics and Personalized Medicine at Stanford.

      So fuck you?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @07:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @07:32PM (#761013)

        But Synder IS a medical doctor, as well as a professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine, and chair of the Genetics department, and director of the Center for Genomics and Personalized Medicine at Stanford.

        So fuck you?

        Why stop there?

        Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumbass bitches.
        Every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
        They want to have their bullshit taught in public classes.
        Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their asses.

        but I digress.

        In all seriousness, fuck the judgmental soilentils who think their armchair quarterbacking is more useful or insightful than that of experts in the field. Experts in the field who made the right call and were vindicated no less, by these things so many have become unaccustomed to these last couple of years: FACTS.

        But carry on, after all, the world must be flat. The Internet says so.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:16PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:16PM (#761045)

        I looked it up. he's not a medical doctor, even though he teaches in a medical school.
        his work is in genetics, and his studies are in biochemistry --- these include a PhD, but not an MD.

        • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday November 12 2018, @09:57PM (1 child)

          by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @09:57PM (#761056)
          From his bio page:

          Michael Snyder
          Stanford W. Ascherman, MD, FACS, Professor in Genetics
          • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday November 12 2018, @10:03PM

            by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @10:03PM (#761058)
            Actually I misread that, he's a "Stanford W. Ascherman, MD" professor, because that's not a confusing title. So I guess fuck me.
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:28AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @09:28AM (#760852)

    It all starts with the patient noticing something isn't right and deciding to go to the doctor.
    That's how it works. I am concerned that this sensor machine is a hypochondriac's dream come true, though.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Monday November 12 2018, @12:54PM

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @12:54PM (#760888)

    the sensors showed that his heart was beating faster than normal, his skin temperature had risen, and the level of oxygen in his blood had dropped

    I got a moto x360 or whatever its called a couple years ago when it was new, with the inaccurate idea I'd develop apps for it. Anyway the battery only ran about 12 hours at absolute best (like 30 minutes now, and irreplaceable of course) and the only sensor it had was heart rate so I'm impressed with all this blood oxygenation and skin temp stuff.

    When biorhythms were a computationally "interesting" topic around the birth of the PC in the late 70s I looked kinda askance at it even though I was pretty young and I suspect this how smart watch data analysis is going to turn out in the long run. Its the same type of people falling prey to the same desires and PR, just slightly different tech a couple decades apart. Studying fads like this over time would be interesting. I guess phrenology was a thing a century ago, thats all I know for sure.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by VLM on Monday November 12 2018, @01:01PM (1 child)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 12 2018, @01:01PM (#760892)

    From a cultural perspective its a classic resilient self reliant outlook vs specialized regulated middlemen outlook on life, and much like a hammer or tax software or kitchenware or a handgun, a fraction of the population is going to freak out at the (ironic) irresponsibility of unlicensed unregulated private ownership of wrist mounted temperature measuring devices.

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday November 12 2018, @04:37PM

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday November 12 2018, @04:37PM (#760954) Journal

      Yeah, yeah. Make sure to take yer colloidal silver tonic so's we can see you coming...

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday November 12 2018, @03:42PM

    by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday November 12 2018, @03:42PM (#760935) Journal

    The smartwatch, in this case, doesn't know anything. You might as well say your ATM card or checkbook knows when to start and stop spending money, or that your pack of stamps knows you should mail something, or your toothpicks know you're getting gum disease. A person knew what to make of the data coming from the watch. Even if it advances to the next step such that it makes recommendations the watch still won't know anything. Not the way you will when you choose to take actions based on what it is saying. Instead it will follow the algorithms programmed into it by those who think they do know what certain data trends mean.

    Misleading headlines like this which get eaten up by clickbait are exactly why the public collectively can't be trusted to know these things, either.

    (OK... I got up on the wrong side of the bed!)

    --
    This sig for rent.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @05:02PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12 2018, @05:02PM (#760963)

    Almost anyone can "feel" a cold or flu coming on at least a day or two in advance. Be more aware of your body and what's going on with it. It's not that hard to do.

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