posted by
martyb
on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:37PM
from the Third-Verse-Same-As-The-First dept.
from the Third-Verse-Same-As-The-First dept.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46509288
"Prime Minister Theresa May has called off Tuesday's crucial vote on her Brexit deal so she can go back to Brussels and ask for changes to it.
"As it stands the deal 'would be rejected by a significant margin' if MPs voted on it, she admitted."
The biggest stumbling block appears to be the issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland. In particular, what the borders will look like in terms of what people and goods will need to do or not do in order to cross it.
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Brexit Status Once Again in Limbo
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(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:43PM (36 children)
The vote happened, UK should leave the EU and go back to whatever situation existed before or negotiate new treaties with everyone. Why is this taking so long? It seems like rejection of democracy.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:58PM (9 children)
It was and is. Here is the rundown [threadreaderapp.com] and here's the problems with no deal. [threadreaderapp.com] Just as non-compete agreements are unenforceable in civil employment contracts, the article 50 process should allow negotiation of trade deals over it's 2 year time line. Trump was right, the EU should be sued and the retard that signed the UK into such a unilateral treaty should also be given a bill for resulting economic damage - payable before his head is removed for treason.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:11PM (2 children)
She's not your pm. She's the eu's puppet. Brits you need to rise up and toss her into the channel.
(Score: 4, Informative) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:54PM
> She's the eu's puppet.
She really isn't.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday December 13 2018, @04:36PM
They are still ruled by a monarch that they pay for. They aren't rising up anytime soon.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:47PM (5 children)
No he wasn't. Trump is an idiot, and doesn't understand the EU (or the UK come to that).
All the EU regulations the Brexit wankers whine on about are regulations the UK helped create, as a member of the EU.
That's how the EU works, and when self-interested arseholes like Boris Johnston lie about the £350 million extra the NHS will get he's doing it to further his own agenda, which is completely about what's best for Boris.
He's not the only one.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:22PM (4 children)
The people don't appoint the Commission or the Council. Councilors are not accountable to their people and Commissioners are not accountable at all. Nice try though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:51PM (3 children)
Until ratified by the EU parliament, no council or commission shit become normative.
And then, each country in EU need to create their own laws, which in no small number of times many country parliaments refused.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:48PM (2 children)
*sigh*
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday December 13 2018, @12:12AM (1 child)
How does that make them unaccountable?
That's just parliamentary privilege. Every civilised country has that for their elected people, the EU have extended it to their civil servants.
Let's not go full retard by pretending it protects them from every aspect of their lives, OK?
In the US you guys have full immunity for anybody who can buy it, so it's not that different really.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @10:35AM
The executive is not elected by the people, it is not answerable to the people and yet they are immune from prosecution. This makes them unaccountable. We are communicating in a language called "English" and there's no ambiguity in the meaning of the word unaccountable in the present context.
When are the public elections for the EU council and commission held then?
Speak for yourself!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:10PM
We have already established what you are madam and we're just haggling about the price.
(Score: 5, Informative) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:07PM (5 children)
The UK wants to leave the EU. OK.
The UK *doesn't* want to go back to whatever situation existed before:
- the UK has greatly benefited from the low-friction trade the past 40 years, so much even, that they believe it will magically continue once they exited the EU, and is in no way caused by their Single Market and Customs Union membership.
- the UK doesn't want to go back to putting signs up everywhere in London: "if you leave your bag unattended for more than a minute(*), we'll send in the bomb squad and blow it up, on your costs".
(I found that quite a curious sign in train stations).
So basically it's like the linguistically cumbersome phrase they have: "they want to have their cake and eat it"
which means: "they want to have their cake, eat their cake, and then afterwards still have their cake", similar to the much clearer French phrase:
"ils vont le beurre, l’argent du beurre, et le sourire de la crémière" [wiktionary.org]
So that's why it took so long (2 years). Oh, and the government didn't dare to tell the people that their combined demands were impossible. That too.
(*) don't remember exactly how it was phrased or if it said how many minutes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by choose another one on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:51PM (4 children)
> The UK wants to leave the EU. OK.
The UK electorate was asked this in a referendum, and that is the majority view.
> The UK *doesn't* want to go back to whatever situation existed before
Wrong. The "UK"s opinion on this is not known - no one has asked that in a referendum. Opinion polls proved worthless in the previous referendum.
It is very possible that a majority in the UK do want to go back to the 70s - Jeremy Corbyn does and there are many who support him, possibly enough for him to win an election.
> So that's why it took so long (2 years). Oh, and the government didn't dare to tell the people that their combined demands were impossible.
No, the people's only demand was to leave the EU, nothing more nothing less, no specifics on how to do it. The demands are coming from government politicians and from business etc. via lobbyists, and that applies to both sides of the negotiations.
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:43PM
It is indeed, quite likely that the majority would like to return to the days when the sun never set on the British empire.
This is unlikely to be feasible. In particular, I doubt you would get many of today's women to wear Victorian fashions,
and the working class would not accept the employment terms and conditions now they are mostly literate.
Actually, the vote was within 1% - and would far better be interpreted as "don't know" than a majority wanting anything.
(Particularly since no one told them leaving involved no food).
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:01PM
Yeah, the referendum gave a nice broad requirement: "leave the EU" but you can't implement a broad requirement (just think how many ways you could implement the requirement "I want a program to paint pictures" - few of them are adobe photoshop) so they need to refine it into an actual specification for what the voters want and then the steps to implement. But doing that refinement without involving the voters directly makes it very unlikely they'll end up with what they want.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday December 13 2018, @12:29AM (1 child)
The people were lied to by the self-interested upper-class who want to run the UK just like they used to.
Bullshit!
Bullshit!
Bullshit!
The guys who ran the whole Brexit nonsense have all shifted their financial interests out of the UK, into Europe, and that absolute scumbag Nigel Lawson (you know, Lord Lawson, who stole taxpayers money) is even a French permanent resident now.
I'm sorry but if you really think Brexit is going to be good for Britain, you're deluding yourself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @10:18AM
Bullshit!
Bullshit
Autonomy is always good.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:14PM (1 child)
Because the process of exiting the EU is stated to take two years after signing Article 50. That two years is up at the end of March, 2019.
There is a lot (and I mean a lot) involved. Imagine any democratic country having to renegotiate all of their trade agreeements, immigration treaties and visitation/tourism policies in only two years.
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:46PM
Article 50 said "MAX 2 years", though. Sorry for the nitpicking.
(Score: 2) by iamjacksusername on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:14PM
Political consensus is painful, takes forever, and nobody is ever happy with the result. But, it is absolutely necessary in a democracy. If they wanted it simple,the ruling Government could say, "Let the Queen decide it all." But they did not - they are choosing to let the mechanisms of democracy work.
The UK voted to leave: that is the only thing that has been decided. Now, it is time for everyone to work out what happens next. There are 100,000 details that need to be worked out; everything from the judicial implications of EU court rulings no longer being valid precedent to figuring out what do about EU citizens working in the UK to deciding what regulations on garbage disposal to throw away or keep. This will take time.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:16PM (1 child)
The situation that existed before? Do you mean the British Empire (I don't think India, Australia, Canada, half of Africa etc. would want to rejoin), World War II, the Irish "troubles" or needing to be bailed out by the IMF in the 1970s?
Or perhaps you yearn for that rose-tinted interval in the 1950s/60s when everything seemed wonderful because food rationing had just ended, there was still lots of employment and profit in rebuilding all the shit that got blown up in the war, when we had good old fashioned imperial units, bendy bananas and the death penalty, and young people politely roamed the shires catching smugglers while quaffing lashings of ginger beer?
Its a rejection of a badly thought-out referendum designed by a moron who thought everybody loved him and assumed that he was going to win, and had no clue how to deal with the result.
We could have had a sensible referendum with 3 or 4 choices between A; "remain", B "Norway-type-agreement (with some compromises on sovereignty)" or C "hard WTO brexit and fuck the consequences" - with instant-runoff voting. Still could (and now we've got a specific option B). If you think that a 3-way choice would confuse the public - or can't face the possibility that A might win now we've had 2 years to debate the issue - then shut the fuck up about "democracy".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:20PM
You could be an EU employee with that attitude!
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:52PM (9 children)
The problem with "no deal" is that it will really really screw up the UK's economy. Trade with the EU amounts to approximately 10% of the UK's GDP. For USAians who don't understand how big of a deal it is, this would be a loss approximately on the same scale as the US suddenly not having the entire economy of California any longer. Even if it only caused a 50% drop in EU trade, that's still like the USA operating without the metropolitan area of New York City.
The real problem is that Brexit was always a stupid idea, and the politicians are now stuck trying to make that stupid idea not quite so stupid.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:08PM (5 children)
"The real problem is that Brexit was always a stupid idea, and the politicians are now stuck trying to make that stupid idea not quite so stupid."
centralization of power, especially to unelected parasites is incredibly stupid. if you can't control you local government what makes you think you can control your state government? If you can't control the fucking traitors in the state capital what makes you think you can control the shameless whores in the national capital? if you can't control those raving reptillians, what makes you think you can control some international con artists like the EU?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 12 2018, @07:37PM (3 children)
Centralization of power being bad is not something I'm willing to accept as axiomatic. Sometimes, a distributed power structure makes a better decision than a centralized power structure would. Sometimes it's the other way around.
For example, the EU definitely has treated Greece very badly during the latest economic crisis. On the other hand, the latest economic crisis didn't turn into a major war like several pre-EU economic crises have. It's not like there aren't any tradeoffs involved here.
As for who controls the EU, the appointed representatives are a bit like how the US senate was originally created to represent the state government's interests. If you want to change what your nation is doing on the European Council, the way to go about that is changing your national government.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:24PM
I marvel at how people can just come up with fake reasons for decentralization and argue against them.
It has nothing to do with whether a "better decision" is made, it has to do with how bad things get when the "wrong" person is making decisions. I mentioned before on here that there is some sort of connection between so-called "liberal" political ideas and making strawman arguments. It is really deserving of study.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:06PM (1 child)
UK trade deficit [hhttps] with the EU is £67 billion (£28 billion surplus in services less £95 billion in goods). UK trade surplus with non-EU countries is £41 billion. The UK accounts for 15% of EU GDP. [europa.eu] The EU not doing a good faith, mutually beneficial deal is a stupid idea.
Price controls are usually bad [iea.org.uk] if not always EU butter mountain level bad.
Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone. Europe is simply a sub-optimal currency area. [city.ac.uk] I think you already know this.
Not yet. [businessinsider.com] Western governments allowed companies to off-shore global growth. When government borrowing was based on growth projections, printing money and importing "human capital" simply suspends the inevitable.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 13 2018, @03:51AM
but
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8536862.stm [bbc.co.uk]
That's probably why Greece was admitted; and it was fun for awhile.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:56PM
And is also not true. It's another one of the Brexiteer's lies, along with £350 million extra for the NHS and how the rest of the world will be lining up to trade with the UK.
I mean, my country is keen to negotiate a trade deal with the UK, but frankly they don't have much to offer us, and we produce much that they want, so we'll see how that goes I suppose.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:44PM (2 children)
Why would trade stop with the EU once they left?
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:46PM
It wouldn't stop completely, but it would be substantially more expensive. Hence the "Lopping off New York City" version of the no deal scenario.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday December 13 2018, @03:53AM
More than half of her Majesty businesses never filed a custom declaration.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Dr Spin on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:22PM (3 children)
The vote happened, UK should leave the EU and go back to whatever situation existed before or negotiate new treaties with everyone. Why is this taking so long? It seems like rejection of democracy.
In short, as has been observed by outsiders with an axe to grind: "Brexit is not the UK shooting itself in the foot - they are shooting much higher than that". The reality is, the alternative to Brexit is having food to eat. However, reality is not acceptable to people in high places.
Disclaimer: yes I do have experience of international transport logistics and the food distribution industry.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @12:14AM (1 child)
Meh, sounds like chicken littling from the usual suspects. Just leave the EU and keep everything exactly the same then change the policies/treaties one by one then.
Also, the government shouldnt be in charge of the food supply for your entire nation to begin with, that is a bad idea...
(Score: 1) by mmarujo on Monday December 17 2018, @01:07PM
That's the thing!
Those traties were not signed by the UK, they were signed by the EU, meaning once the UK leaves it will no long have access to them
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @03:21AM
Oh, we're blaming the "wrong" choice in the Brexit referendum on the Rrrussians now too?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:59PM (1 child)
How about Theresa May's pending vote of no confidence? [bbc.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @01:21PM
UK Prime Minister facing no confidence vote, Governments facing no confidence votes in both France and Poland while the government of Belgium is pining for the fjords.
The EU rejoices with its National Anthem [wikipedia.org] while insisting that nationalism is evil.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by SpockLogic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @01:17PM (25 children)
Voting for Trump or voting for Brexit, can't decide the dumbest of the two.
Either way a win for Vlad.
Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
(Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @01:47PM (1 child)
Your opinions match my opinions, which means we are smart since consensus equals correctness. That is why we must keep away all opinions we don't like, less consensus makes us dumber.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:17PM
You can be as smart as you want, and even as smart as you think you are. You still lost both votes.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:21PM (21 children)
I voted for Brexit.
I also voted for Scotland's independence.
There's a rumour going round that all the people who voted for Brexit are looney right wing little englanders or fucking Unionists, this is not the case, I'm very left of centre (in USian terms I'd probably be what you used to call a commie), and my reasons for voting to leave the Fourth Reich are very simple.
1. In the short term it's the only way I could see that both the UK would be destabilised to the point that the SNP muppets finally get a Yes on the Independance front, and hopefully by the time that an independant Scotland ever gets round to any sort of treaty with it, the aftershock of Brexit coupled with the EU's increasingly evident internal problems in member states with the 'ein volk, ein reich' mentality the Eurocrats are sponsoring cause it to change tack, otherwise the SNP will have another fight on their hands if they try to join that clusterfuck again. Note: I do not support the SNP, but I vote for them as a means to an end.
2. I'm righting a wrong for my late father, he voted for Britain to join the common market, as the years went by and he saw what that really meant, he regretted doing so. As he said 'they lied to us, they said it was only about trade'.
3. I like popcorn, more to the point, I like the way it his become blindingly obvious to even the dumbest sheeple in the herd over the past couple of months that the politicians they vote for are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes. Some of us already knew this, but it's going to be very hard for a lot of people in Britain now not to pay attention to 'the Man' when the curtain has not just been pulled aside, but royally shredded.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:08PM (6 children)
Rant mode:
4. The EU, while having stupendous legislative powers, is only slightly democratic. You know, UK was founder of democracy in the modern era, and this second-hand, second-rate democracy in EU is crap.
5. As an aside, the total failure of the EU to respond to Brexit with any meaningful change bodes ill for the rest of Europe. I can't see how EU can continue.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:59PM
I think the European Union is a foe, what they do to us in trade. Now, you wouldn't think of the European Union, but they're a foe. But that doesn't mean they are bad. It doesn't mean anything. It means that they are competitive. I respect the leaders of those countries. But, in a trade sense, they've really taken advantage of us and many of those countries are in NATO and they weren't paying their bills. And possibly the European Union will break up. And that's O. K.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:43PM (4 children)
First of all, the UK is leaving. Why should the EU change itself in order to please and placate an *EX* member? (retorical question, hang on, i'll respond better)
The logical answer is, "in order that other countries don't want to leave, too".
Now it's a fact, that the UK had a better deal as EU member than *any other EU member*.
- They had a special "Maggie Thatcher" rebate (money back each year from their contribution, which is defined as a percentage of GDP)
- They had a special exemption "no €uro" (just like Denmark)
- They had a special exemption "no Schengen (easy travel of people) [wikipedia.org]"
And, because of literally decades of mind-poisoning right-wing tabloid newspapers, they decided that those weren't enough.
David Cameron sent an ultimatum to Brussels: "give us even more, or we'll have a referendum to exit the EU!"
The EU basically told Cameron to go spin on it. Byeeee!!
So far, it seems like no other country has given any indication of wanting to leave the EU. Instead, many Europeans scratch their head as to why the UK does such a bloody counterproductive thing.
This is a cartoon that I think very nicely depicts this attitude to Brexit:
brexit arm saw cartoon [wp.com] (unsure about the website, wtf does vintage value investing mean?)
OK so that's the emotional aspect. But there is also a rational aspect:
- It has been calculated that the UK is better off *in an economical sense* if it stays within the EU.
- The UK is leaving.
Therefore, in order for this to make sense, there must be *non-economical* factors in play, that have a *heavier* weight than the economical factors.
That's fine: the EU itself is not principally about money, but instead about an end to intra-EU war and famine.
However: the people arguing for Brexit, such as prime minister Theresa May and her Tory government, are responsible for communicating these non-economical factors to anyone willing to listen (especially the EU of course).
And in my honest opinion, nobody has ever done this.
Nobody has ever given any non-economical reason *why* it's better for the UK to leave.
There is one reason, namely that most of the tax evasion in the world goes on in British colonies, and the EU is going to clamp down on tax evasion coming January. However no Brit has ever officially said that this was the reason.
In any case, that would only be of benefit to stupendously rich Brits, not at all to all Brits.
A reason mentioned a lot in newspapers is: "because sovereignty". But then this is never fully articulated what they actually mean by that. Is the UK planning to leave NATO, the UN and the Eurovision Songfestival as well, because sovereignty?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:06PM
> because sovereignty
Let me help:
1. The EU has massive legislative power. They can't raise taxes or an army (yet) but otherwise they have as much or more power than the member state governments.
2. The EU is run by a group of unelected politicians. They are nominated by a political elite. I realise most of the nominators represent a political party that has been elected, but that does not really cut the mustard. People who wield such legislative power should be directly elected.
3. The directly elected house has little power, which is reflected in a general disinterest from the electorate in the EU elections.
4. There is no one running the EU. The rotating EU presidency thing is a pile of crap. (Have you ever tried working in an organisation with no meaningful leadership? Imagine if there was no one in charge of your workplace, do you think anything would ever happen?)
Compare that with, say, the UK system, where I vote for members of the house of commons, who set out a legislative program in their manifesto and broadly speaking carry it out. I know that when I vote for *x* party, I am going to get this person or that person running the show and this or that legislative program.
As a case in point: the GDPR has had an absolutely massive impact on every aspect of everyone's life, bigger than pretty much any piece of legislation going through British parliament. Where did it come from? Was it set out in anyone's manifesto? I didn't see it anywhere. Where was the discussion? I knew about it from e.g. this site, but I bet others had not a clue.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by schad on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:40PM (2 children)
So in the US, the argument is basically that the mean and the median are not the same thing. To expand on that slightly, while free trade might benefit the economy as a whole, those benefits flow disproportionately (or even exclusively) to only a small fraction of the population. The majority is either no better off, or significantly worse off. Really, it's about wealth inequality, but in the US "wealth inequality" is a catchphrase of the left, so nobody in the right can talk about it directly. As if that's not enough, because the left has to be opposed to everything that Trump does (even if it's something that the left used to support in the recent past), they suddenly have become proponents of free trade even as they continue to rail against the effects that free trade has had on the country. This all leads to a muddled and confusing discourse.
As an ignorant American, this seems to be similar to what's happening in the UK with Brexit. Brexiteers may recognize that the EU has had major economic benefits, but they think those benefits have gone to one or two places: the elites, or Eastern European immigrants. In either case, "regular" Brits have been left behind, marginalized, etc.
I could be completely wrong. Like I said, I'm an ignorant American. But I see an awful lots of parallels.
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:32PM
while free trade might benefit the economy as a whole, those benefits flow disproportionately (or even exclusively) to only a small fraction of the population.
The fraction of the UK population that want food on their table is small? Who knew!
The chief advantage of leaving will be the serious disruption to our supply of food and drugs (I think its fair to say the supplies of milk, pork, whiskey and cannabis will probably be safe. Not much else - potatoes might be OK for part of the year, dependent on what happens in Ireland, and Israeli avocados are probably safe too when in season).
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @09:42AM
While that may be true, the leaving behind of "regular Brits" has been UK policy, not EU. The UK governments of Thatcher and Blair both worked very hard to gut the "regular" British economy (targeting lower class and middle class respectively), while centralizing most wealth in London. The EU does not have policies prescribing how to distribute wealth within its member countries, only across borders. For politicians, the EU is an easy target to deflect domestic criticism to, but that doesn't make the EU magically responsible for the situation "regular" Brits find themselves in.
It's ironic that "regular" Brits continue to whine about the "unelected" EU institutions, while they won't even hold their own "elected" institutions to account.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:11PM (3 children)
How supposedly intelligent people fail to understand this [britannica.com] is beyond me. An unaccountable commission tabling legislation proposed by the round table of industrialists in pursuit of political and economic expansionism that will apparently require an army. Yet leave voters are the ones who are called "thick" and "fascistic"?
Care to elaborate on this? Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:54PM
The loudest ones in any group are generally either one or the other, or both.
But given that almost as many people voted to remain as did to leave, I could justifiably call the absolute refusal of many leave voters to accept any kind of compromise "thick" and/or "fascistic".
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:22PM (1 child)
Don't worry -- lots of that "tinkle-down-on-the-peoples-necks" neoliberal crap will disappear from the EU together with its main instigator and promotor, the Tory-led UK! :-) Hopefully the rest, the EU27, will now shift the EU as a whole slightly towards more Portugal-like [wikipedia.org] politics, now that that ball-and-chain the UK removed itself voluntarily. Only 3 1/2 more months to go! Then the political "Gestalt [wikipedia.org]" of the EU will slowly change to reflect the new composition.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:39PM
This narrative of discarding the second largest economy in the EU (even after almost two years of Brexit) and then remodeling the EU on one of the shittier economies in the place is a really great story. It will no doubt flounder spectacularly on the shoals of reality, but the striving shall long be spoken of in song!
(Score: 5, Funny) by zocalo on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:13PM (1 child)
Yeah, but Theresa May has kept her re-election campain pledge to unite the people, so she has at least managed to deliver on *something*. Admittedly they're united in the opinion that the politicians they vote for are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes, but you've got to start somewhere, right?
(Also just enjoying the popcorn factor at this point - my "Yes Minister" collection has nothing on this train wreck...)
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:26PM
> my "Yes Minister" collection has nothing on this train wreck...
dig out the eurosausage episode, just for nostalgia's sake
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:30PM (5 children)
The common market was about trade, the EU that followed it is grabbing for political power. Brexiteers, stand strong. Perhaps it will make the other people wake up and wrest the EU away from the appointed, third rate politicians in the Commission.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:58PM (4 children)
It was always about political union. The economic union was meant as as a means to that end.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:40PM (3 children)
By who?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:12PM (1 child)
By... (you ready?)... UK, which thought they'll be able to govern the entire Europe instead of a couple of islands.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:26PM
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Thursday December 13 2018, @05:16PM
By some very, very clever but not very famous people such as Robert Schuman [wikipedia.org], Jean Monnet [wikipedia.org], Altiero Spinelli [wikipedia.org], Paul-Henri Spaak [wikipedia.org], Konrad Adenauer [wikipedia.org] and Sicco Mansholt. (OK, Adenauer was famous of course)
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:55PM (1 child)
In other words, you are a moron who just wants the world to burn.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:14PM
Aye, fire is a wonderful thing, a great tool for clearing out plague ridden areas...besides, flickering flames are pretty!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:25PM
Either way a win for Vlad.
*sigh* So sad to see the propaganda is so effective.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ilsa on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:50PM (4 children)
One thing I don't understand is why everyone is dumping so hard on May.
May didn't do the Brexit vote. She came into power after the douchebags that pushed the Brexit vote said, "Oh shit!" and fucked off. May was given a pile of manure the size of the Eiffel Tower and told to somehow make Filet Mignon.
The odds were stacked wildly against her before she even took office, and there is absolutely no way she is going to be able to push this through without pissing off a whole lot of people. This is the nature of Brexit and could be easily predicted by literally anyone who spent more than 10 seconds thinking about it.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:00PM
However the re-election she held for gaining more power, which left her with less power than before, was entirely her fault, wasn't it?
(Score: 4, Informative) by NewNic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:13PM (1 child)
She was anti-Brexit, until the opportunity to become the pro-Brexit PM arose. In other words, she overtly put power over principle.
Once the issues with Russian tampering in the referendum, she could have called another, she chose not to, so she is 100% responsible for the mess she is in now.
She is the one under whose authority the files needed now by the Windrush generation were destroyed.
She has a history of authoritarian policies.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @03:45AM
What's the point? If the nation votes "wrongly" again, you and a couple of other parrots are just going to blame it on the Rrrussians.
(Score: 1) by mmarujo on Monday December 17 2018, @02:49PM
You are absolutely correct. May even campaigned for "Remain". The problem is she accepted that "Pile of Manure". Why in the world did she become PM in the first place?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by iamjacksusername on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:55PM (6 children)
Is Brexit good or bad for the UK? Long-term, it depends. Short-term, it is cataclysmically bad for a fairly small group of wealthy people who have spent the last 60 years profiting from low-tariff, low-friction international trade.
What Brexit in the UK, and Trump's election in the US, represents is the awareness from a large group of people of how much wealth has been taken from them by this relatively small group. They know that, while free trade may be good for the whole, it has been nothing but bad for them. The H-O model of international trade tracks with the experience of the last 50 years. Returns on Investment have outpaced Returns on Labor in every major technologically advanced nation. The Returns of Labor have been transferred to the less developed trading nations.
Anybody who has spent time in the old industrial towns of England or in the mid-west of the United States can give a first hand description of what 50 years of relentless wealth transfer looks like. It looks like the death of hope. People may not "know" the economic terms for what is happening but they can recognize when it is happening; to quote somebody else, "I've been around long enough to know how ignorant I am. I don't assume the universe obeys my preconceptions, but I know a frelling fact when it hits me in the face."
These voters have decided to hold the rest of the country hostage through Brexit because that is the only way they know they will ever have anybody pay attention to their situation. They know the platitudes of politicians and the protestations of "just be patient" and "racism" is just sophistry designed to disarm them. They have collectively decided to shoot the hostage if they do not get what they want.
Maybe something will come of it; or, maybe this is their last gasp.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by NewNic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:16PM (5 children)
Yeah, those people in Sunderland will really benefit when Nissan shuts down the assembly line there.
Those who voted for Brexit were lied to.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rleigh on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:58PM (3 children)
While I certainly hope that it's not shut down, there's another side to this. Do you think it's acceptable for a single company to blackmail an entire nation purely for its own supply chain convenience? There are hundreds of thousands of companies in the UK. The vast majority do not trade internationally, they trade domestically. And yet, they are tied to obey EU rules put into UK law, despite not selling their goods into the EU. And they are the vast majority of employers in the UK. Your argument is that globalism is more important, but it's being used as a justification for screwing over the vast majority of workers in this country. Why should Nissan get special treatment? They employ a lot of people, certainly. But overall it's quite small compared with the number employed by the thousands of small companies out there. And yet, all these small companies have zero representation at the highest levels of government while the likes of Nissan do. It's not fair or equitable, and nor is it democratic when the nation as a whole voted to leave the EU. The needs of a small number of globalist interests should not thwart democracy.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:10PM (2 children)
1. Most people work for large companies, all of which trade internationally to some degree.
2. You have to show that the overall balance of EU membership is bad even for small companies that do not trade internationally. I think that the impact of EU membership on small companies is either positive or very slightly negative.
They should not. But neither should the people who depend on Nissan and who voted for Brexit.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Thursday December 13 2018, @09:09AM (1 child)
This is wrong. Most people *don't* work for large companies. The vast majority of workers in the country are, and always have been, sole traders and small businesses. This has become even more true with zero-hours contracts and "gig" jobs, where contractors are the norm.
The misplaced prioritisation of "big" businesses over everyone else is one of the travesties of our time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @09:53AM
This is laughable, and only true on paper. The gig economy is all about low-income people working multinational corporations, receiving peanuts for salary and even less job security.
I agree that the misplaced prioritisation of "big" businesses is a travesty, but the gig economy is a part of that, not the solution.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:03PM
I don't think GP's post tells the whole story but there is some truth to it. However, you missed the point.
Of course, the suits are always in a position to make the peons feel the pain when the suits don't get their way. That is how their sales pitch always works. "Do what we want, and you may get some table scraps. Try to tax or regulate us... and we will lay people off, we will relocate, we will sue, and your retirement money (that we had laws written to incentivize you to put into the stock market) will shrink."
The peons went along with this until now. Now some peons are saying "enough is enough, we're going to burn down your mansion even if it means the fire may spread to our shanty."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:57PM (2 children)
In a new development in the past day or two, it appears that Theresa May is facing a vote of no confidence. We'll see if there is a governmental shakeup or not in the next few hours. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46535739 [bbc.com]
For those unaware, a successful vote of no confidence would force Theresa May to resign and the Conservative party would need to select a new Prime Minister. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45953182 [bbc.com]
I wonder if we could be seeing a PM Boris Johnson...
(Score: 2) by iamjacksusername on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:01PM
She clearly did not Brexit to happen. From the outside looking in, it seems like she was buying time until somebody came up with a way to halt the process.
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:49PM
Bozo the clown would obviously be the Brexiteer's choice. Unfortunately the percentage of voters wanting someone sane are unlikely to have a candidate they can support.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:13PM (7 children)
Ireland should leave UK and combine with northern Ireland.
(Score: 2) by iamjacksusername on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:18PM (5 children)
If Brexit actually happens, I think that is inevitable. There is no more advantage to being a British subject in the Five Counties if there is no EU membership. The immediate term economic impact for England itself is going to be highly disruptive; I think anybody in Northern Ireland will look at admission into Ireland as a lifeboat from that.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @06:18PM (4 children)
I think that the UK getting rid of NI would be good for the UK. It's a huge money sink for the UK economy. The border issues go away, the drain on the UK economy goes away.
Unfortunately, there is presently a majority of people in NI that want it to remain in the UK.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @08:52PM (3 children)
Ireland is rather far from the continent. Generally now, the Irish speak English. They ought to leave the EU.
Actually, here is the right way:
1. The UK and Ireland don't exactly leave. Well, they sort of do... by splitting the EU. The EU institutions get duplicated, making a western mini-EU with just the UK and Ireland.
2. Transition the Republic of Ireland to the UK Pound.
3. Split the UK into its component parts. It can be Northern Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, and Other.
4. Done, pretty much... but splitting a bit more and/or adopting the US constitution would be darn useful.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:37PM
I think my solution is better: we give Ireland (all of it, even the bits we don't own) to America, and they give us Hawaii in return.
That way, the Irish all get guns and can go on shooting each other, and we get the best music and dancing girls.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:14PM (1 child)
What can I say, that's the funniest comment I have read in a long time.
The Republic of Ireland using the UK Pound: that's some comedy gold.
You clearly have no sense of the history of the Republic of Ireland and the sensitivities of the Irish people.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Thursday December 13 2018, @06:08AM
The Republic had their Punt pegged 1:1 to the British pound from its creation until 1979, when the Irish joined the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (before the UK, iirc). Until that point, all their coins and banknotes were made in the UK!
I saw Irish coins (small denominations) in my loose change in Wales until the mid 90s.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:15PM
Ireland left the UK in 1922. Did you mean the EU?
(Score: 3, Informative) by boxrick on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:13PM (2 children)
I don't understand anyones logic describing the EU as 'The third reich' or calling it undemocratic.
The EU is literally in every sense of the word more democratic than the majority of the positions of power in the UK. The people in charge and power are voted for multiple times by representatives of each and every country, in our own case we have a much larger say than many.
The UK currently has more or less control over everything that people wish to gain from leaving the EU, or own government simply chooses not to use those powers. So it is the UK Government NOT the EU which should be taking flack for this.
We stand to lose massive benefits in every respect for generations because of this nonsense, from protections of freedom, to stopping large companies taking advantage of us, free travel, huge investments in areas the UK government has no care or want for, minimum standards on food quality, we lose workers rights guaranteed by the EU, environmental protections meaning that companies can not dump waste and rubbish not to mention all the free trade we will be losing which benefits each of us every day in the daily shopping and purchases we buy.
Does the UK really want to look more like the US? Controlled by corporations where people have no work guarantees or protections, healthcare. We have a wonderful country and such a good position right now and we are throwing it out of the window for some pre-concieved notion that we have no control, when in fact we have all the control on the things which matter and all the protection offered by the EU.
(Score: 3, Informative) by rleigh on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:20PM
I disagree with your arguments about the EU being democratic. Go and research its organisation and power structures. There's a huge democratic deficit. It's the root cause for much of our dissatisfaction.
"Does the UK really want to look more like the US?" Yes. Because we already *are* much more like the US. Unlike most of Europe, we don't have a Civil Law system, we have Common Law. We are in many ways much more closely aligned with the US outlook and ways of doing things than we are with Europe.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @12:29AM
You are assuming everything will stay exactly the same and the English are unable to make laws and have nothing but chaos when they leave the EU and their existing laws are 'gone'. I think they can manage it. Do not think so huh? Well you can go re-read the summary and see how the process works. They should be arguing how to do this. They are required to. It is not an easy problem to crack.
They also have huge amounts of capital and land. They are only second in the EU to Germany in how much they own. They have all of the cards and are acting like they are the losers. The EU needs England way more than England needs them. The EU is going to act pouty and make this as hard as possible because the knew who was funding a lot of their pet programs.
Yes it will be 'scary'. But I 100% promise you they will figure it out. Even if the EU decides to pout like a scorned school girl.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday December 13 2018, @12:41AM
We need Nigel on this one. On the Brexit. He fought the E. U., very successfully, for 25 years. But then he quit. He "retired." So sad. But, ask him nicely. And I think he'll come out of that retirement. And make Brexit happen -- BRILLIANTLY.
By the way, Scotland. We love Scotland, don't we? Used to be so beautiful. Until it became overrun with ugly wind farms. COMPLETELY destroying the fabulous views. Unattractive, ugly, noisy and dangerous!!!