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posted by martyb on Sunday January 06 2019, @08:33PM   Printer-friendly
from the stopped-clock dept.

Securityweek has a look at the bits of HR1 with digital election security implications running:

The Democrat-controlled House of Representatives has unveiled its first Bill: HR1, dubbed the 'For the People Act'. It has little chance of getting through the Republican-controlled Congress, and even less chance of being signed into law by President Trump.

Nevertheless, HR1 lays down a marker for current Democrat intentions; and it is likely that some of the potentially bi-partisan elements could be spun out into separate bills with a greater chance of progress.

One of these is likely to include the section on election security. This has been a major issue since the meddling by Russian-state hackers in the 2016 presidential election, and the subsequent realization on how easy it would be for interested parties (both foreign hackers and local activists) to influence election outcomes.

I'm all for secure and accountable elections but the feds are going to need to be careful and deliberate in what they mandate vs. what they place conditions for funding on. They do have significant authority as far as election laws go but their power is more deep than broad; most specifics are legally up to the states. Just because something is a good idea doesn't mean they currently have the legal authority necessary to do it.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday January 06 2019, @08:52PM (12 children)

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday January 06 2019, @08:52PM (#782838) Homepage

    HR1: The deplatform anybody who dares boycott Israel [aipac.org] bill. No Thanks.

    • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by RandomFactor on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:18PM

      by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:18PM (#782847) Journal

      I do find it interesting that a legal person (a corporation) has their rights restricted in a way that is unconstitutional to impose on an individual.

      Still, in one sense this gives companies cover. "We can't do what you want Sheik, it is against U.S. law."

      --
      В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:21PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:21PM (#782850)

      This may be relevant to your interests, though I'm not certain what HR1 has to do with it. Is it a rider nobody's mentioned? In any case: European Jewish Association slanders left and urges dialogue with far-right [wsws.org].

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:12PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:12PM (#782893)

        Daily reminder that Jewish bankers funded Hitler's rise to power.

        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:27PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:27PM (#782903)

          There are three main international banks, the world bank, the international monetary fund, and the bank for international settlements. The last is the shadiest, and has proven impossible to disband:

          The fact that top level German industrialists and advisors sat on the BIS board seemed to provide ample evidence of how the BIS might be used by Hitler throughout the war, with the help of American, British and French banks. Between 1933 and 1945 the BIS board of directors included Walther Funk, a prominent Nazi official, and Emil Puhl, as well as Hermann Schmitz, the director of IG Farben, and Baron von Schroeder, the owner of the J.H. Stein Bank [de].[10]

          The 1944 Bretton Woods Conference recommended the "liquidation of the Bank for International Settlements at the earliest possible moment". This resulted in the BIS being the subject of a disagreement between the U.S. and British delegations. The liquidation of the bank was supported by other European delegates, as well as Americans (including Harry Dexter White and Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr.).[11] But it was opposed by John Maynard Keynes, head of the British delegation.

          Keynes went to Morgenthau hoping to prevent or postpone the dissolution, but the next day it was approved. However, the liquidation of the bank was never actually undertaken.[12] In April 1945, the new U.S. president Harry S. Truman and the British government suspended the dissolution, and the decision to liquidate the BIS was officially reversed in 1948.[13]

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_for_International_Settlements [wikipedia.org]

        • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:37PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:37PM (#782912)

          https://www.reddit.com/r/UnknownTradeCo/comments/5vj55z/how_hitler_defied_the_international_bankers_and/ [reddit.com]:

          [Canadian researcher Dr. Henry Makow] quotes from the 1938 interrogation of C. G. Rakovsky, one of the founders of Soviet Bolshevism and a Trotsky intimate. Rakovsky was tried in show trials in the USSR under Stalin. According to Rakovsky, Hitler was at first funded by the international bankers, through the bankers' agent Hjalmar Schacht. The bankers financed Hitler in order to control Stalin, who had usurped power from their agent Trotsky. Then Hitler became an even bigger threat than Stalin when Hitler started printing his own money. (Stalin came to power in 1922, which was eleven years before Hitler came to power.)

          Really? "Testimony" from one of Stalin's show trials during the Great Terror?

          The impression I have of the general strategy of neo-Nazis to overthrow the corrupt international capitalist banking system (institutions such as the IMF are large drivers of austerity policies) is to, for whatever reason, attack all Jews, instead of attacking the capitalist banking system. Thus the capitalist banking system lives to see another day thanks to your successfully misdirected rage.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by crafoo on Monday January 07 2019, @03:01AM (4 children)

      by crafoo (6639) on Monday January 07 2019, @03:01AM (#782987)

      Someone told me product UPC codes (the barcode number) of products coming from Israel start with 729. You know. In case you want to boycott their products.

      • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Ethanol-fueled on Monday January 07 2019, @03:24AM (3 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Monday January 07 2019, @03:24AM (#782994) Homepage

        I don't think I can boycott all Kosher products. Hebrew National Kosher beef franks, Kosher salt, Knish, Latkes, Brisket, Pastrami, Manischewitz grape juice. Of course, it is possible to eat all that stuff without having to deal with Jews, or at least rude ones.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 07 2019, @01:05PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 07 2019, @01:05PM (#783145) Journal

          What about kosher bacon?

        • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by crafoo on Tuesday January 08 2019, @12:59AM

          by crafoo (6639) on Tuesday January 08 2019, @12:59AM (#783493)

          I know. All good stuff. I don't have any issue what so ever with Jewish people. I have a problem with our government saying we cannot boycott whoever we feel (including when we form corporations). I also don't like some of Israels policies and, well, how they conduct themselves in the world.

    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Phoenix666 on Monday January 07 2019, @03:44PM

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Monday January 07 2019, @03:44PM (#783213) Journal

      That provision renders the entire package anathema. Placing any topic or country or group above free speech, kills free speech. If Zionists get this, then everybody and his brother will line up to claim the same privilege.

      It is a totalitarian proposal and those who proposed it, and those who champion it, should be given one-way tickets to North Korea. It pisses me off that we should have to suffer their presence among us in Western societies that are trying desperately to cling to human rights.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Tuesday January 08 2019, @06:33AM

      by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Tuesday January 08 2019, @06:33AM (#783574) Homepage Journal

      WRONG. That one is Little Marco's Strengthening America’s Security in the Middle East Act. Otherwise known as the Rubio-Manchin Combating BDS Act of 2018. Also known as the Combating BDS Act of 2017. Little Marco, of our amazing Senate, has been working on that one for a while. And I'm waiting at my desk. Pen in hand!!!

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:06PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:06PM (#782844)

    Congress isn't Republican controlled.

    It should read Republican controlled Senate.

    Congress is split.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:55PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:55PM (#782925) Journal

      There is only one party in both houses. There may be lots of bickering, but there is no opposition. 95% of the voters find that perfectly acceptable. Not a lot can be done until that changes.

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @07:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @07:35PM (#783318)

      the Republican-controlled Congress

      At the current time, "the Reblican-controlled Congress" is the Senate, you see, both the house and the senate are congress. You will often hear house members (the 'lower house') referred to as congressmen while the 'upper' house congressmen prefer their more prestigious title, "Senators."

      Regardless, both the "House of Representatives" and the "Senate" are the "Houses of Congress."

  • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:13PM (31 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:13PM (#782846)

    It's garbage unless it mandates photos taken when people vote.

    Without photos, there is no way to tell if fraudulent voting even exists. We can and should assume that it is rampant, but we can't know. There is no possible way to prosecute most cases because we can't figure out who was voting. Undercover investigations have shown that poll workers are frequently uninterested in proper identity verification.

    The polling station should also have a pre-existing photo when the voter shows up. The voter ID should be there when the voter arrives, ready to be looked up on a computer.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:18PM (16 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:18PM (#782849) Homepage

      Yep, dispensaries do it. And I never understood why people are bitching about voterID in the first place. If it's so damn difficult for people to get ID's, then the government should be able to make it easier for people to get IDs.

      We need strong voter ID laws, of course, to protect our elections from Russian Hacking. If we had strong voter ID laws during the 2016 election, then Hillary would have won because the Russians couldn't attack our voting process.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:25PM (8 children)

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:25PM (#782878) Homepage Journal

        That might not seem hard to save up for given that ID is so useful, but consider an argument inspired by the marginal tax rate:

        If you had one dollar to spend on food or on an ID card, which would be chosen by the poor?

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:22PM (6 children)

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:22PM (#782899) Homepage

          That's why I am proposing that we make those ID more easily available, even free, if necessary. The lack of revenue collected can always be collected elsewhere, even something bullshit like taxes on plastic bags or straws or something. And to further lock down the voting system we need to have a sanity-check on social-security numbers -- motherfuckers shouldn't be able to use the number of a dead person to get privileges they shouldn't otherwise have.

          • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:33PM (4 children)

            by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:33PM (#782908) Homepage Journal

            That the US Federal and US States generally don't require one to possess ID is due to the NAZI-era requirement that everyone carry IDs that declare their religion.

            You do _not_ need to give your ID to a cop unless you're operating a motor vehicle, however if you refuse he has the right to detain you for 72 hours so as to establish you identity.

            --
            Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
            • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:48PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:48PM (#782921)

              Nowadays we simply require every coder to declare a coding language, because every coding language is its own religion. If you can code in a dozen languages, then you are a heretic to all coding religions. If you express the opinion that coding language does not matter because any coder should be able to pick up new languages as needed, you are an unemployable blasphemer against the holy law of coding.

              Fuck MDC

              • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday January 07 2019, @12:04AM (2 children)

                by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday January 07 2019, @12:04AM (#782931) Homepage Journal

                Because I started a language-agnostic business.

                You could end your self-imposed torment in a heartbeat were you to somehow Solve The Prima Donna Problem. To Wit:

                Fuck MDC

                --
                Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
                • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:28AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:28AM (#782937)

                  Languages I coded in today: C and Python.

                  "Oh no!" scream the millennial yeast infections. "C is a slow old man lang! Python is performant sexy hotness! You can't use a C code and a Python code together! That's like not compatible! How are you even a coder??!"

                  Languages I might code in tomorrow: Java JavaScript Perl Ruby.

                  "Dude!" shout the millennial dick weeds. "JavaScript is the shit! We code everything in Node bro! Come see our office that looks just like a frat dorm! What the fuck you mean you don't use Node.js. Are you sure you a coder?"

                  Hey MDC. I remember entrepreneurial assholes like you back when I was in college. Always bragging about how they started their own business. Always bragging about how much money they were going to make someday. Always their businesses had zero revenue. Always they had grandiose claims about how they were somehow successful anyway. Always zero revenue.

                  You are a fraudulent pretend businessman with a fraudulent pretend business.

                  Fuck MDC

          • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday January 11 2019, @11:38PM

            by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Friday January 11 2019, @11:38PM (#785291)

            That's why I am proposing that we make those ID more easily available, even free, if necessary.

            This. The hurdles put in place to gain an ID are the biggest objection to the proposed ID laws.
            This past year I was required to renew my driver's license. Simple thing, no big deal right? OK, my bad for procrastinating, but three weeks before I was due to renew I opened the envelope to discover that rather than the usual process of renewing online in a few minutes I was required to renew in person.
            That annoyance was made worse by the fact I was supposed to bring actual mailed copies of bills or such (by my reading of the wording on the site), so I rushed to change my accounts, which have been handled paperless online for years, to have actual mailed bills (the clerk later said that's what it says but they accept printed copies of e-bills thanks for not having that info on the site). Fortunately I received the last of them a couple days prior to my appointment.
            Worse than that though, I discovered that my birth certificate, which had been perfectly valid and accepted by all for nearly 60 years, was no longer considered valid since it was issued by a hospital. I had to apply to the state where I was born for a state certified birth certificate. That, which I also got just two days before the appointment, for two copies (extra was $10 so I said why not) plus expedited shipping ($12) cost $49 in total. Not to mention the website was extremely balky and I had to restart the process several times. When the "certified" copies arrived, there was not a thing on them that was not on my original hospital issued certificate, it looked like the info was simply copied by hand.
            To compound things, my vehicle had crapped out the weekend before the appointment, which I discovered was no longer in the centrally located office due to flooding from the past fall's hurricane, nor was in in the temporary administration offices less than a half mile from home, but in some godforsaken near deserted shopping mall located much further away. Had I had to take the local buses, with their transfers and such, I would have had to spend a couple hours getting there and a couple hours getting back. A taxi would have cost me nearly $50 each way. Fortunately my boss lent me her car for the process. I work nights, so at least I didn't have to take a day off work.
            If you consider all that, just imagine a minimum wage worker having to go through all that. They could be stymied financially at any of several points, not the least of which would be having to take an unpaid day off work.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @03:18AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @03:18AM (#782992)

          Also, keep in mind that in many states, drivers license and state id photos end up in FBI facial recognition databases. So, voter id basically mandates that you end up in these databases a lot of the time.

      • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:28PM (5 children)

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:28PM (#782881) Homepage Journal

        An image that will always haunted my mind is that of a lynched black man, hung from a tree with a sign around his neck that read "He Voted".

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:53PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:53PM (#782924)

          I want to see MDC hanging from a tree with a noose around his neck and a sign reading "Soggy Con Man Advertised Fake Jobs."

          Fuck MDC

          • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday January 07 2019, @12:05AM (2 children)

            by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday January 07 2019, @12:05AM (#782932) Homepage Journal

            To solicit murder is a felony, to be specific, and in the case of such solicitations posted online I expect are the felony of cyberstalking as well.

            --
            Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:35AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:35AM (#782939)

              Go write your suicide note on a sign and hang yourself from a tree.

              Oh dear. Suicide would require you to show remorse for your actions, to wit, operating a fake job board. Confidence tricksters never feel remorse.

              Fuck MDC

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:04AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:04AM (#783010)

          They executed him because he voted as a convicted felon. (his being black is but a statistical curiosity)

      • (Score: 1, Troll) by fustakrakich on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:59PM

        by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:59PM (#782929) Journal

        We need strong voter ID laws, of course, to protect our elections from Russian Hacking. If we had strong voter ID laws during the 2016 election, then Hillary would have won because the Russians couldn't attack our voting process.

        Damn! We need a "Poe's Law" mod for you... I mean, that's funny shit, but it's sad that people actually believe it.

        --
        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by meustrus on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:58PM (2 children)

      by meustrus (4961) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:58PM (#782864)

      And what exactly do you do about absentee ballots? You can't take a picture of the person filling those out. And before you suggest getting rid of them, consider that absentee ballots are the only way many deployed soldiers can vote at all, and that in many states, strict rules have led to dramatically reduced chances of soldiers receiving their ballots or having them counted in time or at all. Not to mention all the other reasons we have absentee ballots.

      --
      If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:01AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:01AM (#782971)

        Suppose you are deployed to Irastan. The military designates a team to handle the problem for you. They take your picture, then package that up with your ballot and also transmit it back to the USA. The ballot is kept under armed guard by the voting team until escorted back to your state.

        Suppose you are in the hospital. We send a suitable group of people to do as above. It might involve a notary public and a US marshal.

        No, it isn't cheap, but absentee ballots should not be available for frivolous reasons.

        Really though, I'm fine with a simple "NO". Untainted elections are too important to allow this hole.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by redneckmother on Monday January 07 2019, @05:17AM

          by redneckmother (3597) on Monday January 07 2019, @05:17AM (#783047)

          Suppose you are at home, and your polling place is 50 miles away, and your vehicle gets (at best) 15MPG. Also, suppose fuel costs $2.50 a gallon (it's actually a LOT more than hat in the boonies).

          Additionally, suppose you and/or your significant other has health issues, and the 100 mile (round trip) drive is a serious imposition.

          Absentee voting is a necessity for some of us.

          --
          Mas cerveza por favor.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:16PM (4 children)

      by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:16PM (#782870)

      Without photos, there is no way to tell if fraudulent voting even exists. We can and should assume that it is rampant, but we can't know.

      Why? There is no evidence that fraudulent voting does occur in anything but minuscule proportions. The biggest potential point of weakness in the system is in the counting of votes, not the actual voting. We should be ensuring that every qualified voter that tries to vote has their vote counted accurately. Then you can double down on checking each voter, if you still think there is a problem.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:40PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:40PM (#782915)

        me: Without photos, there is no way to tell ... we can't know.

        you: There is no evidence

        Um, yeah, because we don't take photos and in some cases don't even ask for an ID. We aren't trying to collect evidence, and then you say there isn't any. Well of course!!! WTF. (goes to flip tables...)

        FYI though: It is probable that a senate seat in New Hampshire was stolen in 2016 due to out-of-state people from Massachusetts voting in New Hampshire.

        The counting problems, such as the blatant misbehavior in Broward County every election, don't have obvious fixes. There, witnesses have seen things like teams of people working to fill out unclaimed ballots. I suppose you could mandate that all ballot boxes be watched on uninterrupted streaming video, but that doesn't solve the problem of what to do when the video is interrupted or when it shows a bunch of ballots being destroyed.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:47PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:47PM (#782920)

          (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

        • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday January 11 2019, @10:44PM

          by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Friday January 11 2019, @10:44PM (#785272)

          FYI though: It is probable that a senate seat in New Hampshire was stolen in 2016 due to out-of-state people from Massachusetts voting in New Hampshire.

          No, it's not probable. Read the voting laws in the state, instead of propaganda blogs in the right wing echo chamber.

      • (Score: 1) by redneckmother on Monday January 07 2019, @06:15AM

        by redneckmother (3597) on Monday January 07 2019, @06:15AM (#783060)

        Judging from the latest election cycle, "voter fraud" can't hold a candle to election fraud.

        --
        Mas cerveza por favor.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:46PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:46PM (#782917)

      I supervise a polling place. I watch you. And since I've been doing this for years, I probably know you. IOW, substitution fraud is unlikely.

      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @03:06AM (4 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @03:06AM (#782990) Homepage Journal

        City people knowing even a hundredth of the voters in their precinct? Best joke I've heard all day!

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @06:30AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @06:30AM (#783063)

          I only have to remember people in my ward and district. That makes around 600. Yeah, I can do that.

        • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Monday January 07 2019, @07:49AM (2 children)

          by captain normal (2205) on Monday January 07 2019, @07:49AM (#783080)

          I don't know about all metropolitan areas in this country, but I do live in a very populated area and I do know many of the poll workers in my precinct, and they know me. So I doubt that your post will hold much water.

          --
          When life isn't going right, go left.
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @01:07PM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @01:07PM (#783146) Homepage Journal

            Knowing you isn't amazing. You may be an outgoing, charismatic guy offline. Knowing every voter in their precinct would be beyond belief even in a small town though.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by slinches on Monday January 07 2019, @07:19PM

            by slinches (5049) on Monday January 07 2019, @07:19PM (#783305)

            I will counter your anecdote with one of my own. Polling places without voter ID verification systems are both slower and much less secure.

            In my case, the poll workers have been different for every election I have voted in and the precinct is big enough that I rarely recognize any of the other voters there. Substitution fraud was trivially easy back when the only voter verification was a list of names, just sign next to a random one and go vote. Not only did that system lack any real security, it was slow too. After the new voter ID requirements were introduced in my state, they deployed an electronic voter verification system that allows same number of poll workers handle 3-4x the number of voters/hour. The new verification system consists of a group of kiosks where you scan your ID and then hand it to the poll worker standing behind them to verify that the picture matches the person standing there. It then tells the worker if you are in the correct polling place and which ballot to give you (our polling places often cover two or more school districts and/or local municipalities, requiring a handful of different ballot configurations). Prior presidential elections had hour plus long lines, this last one I was able to just walk straight up to the kiosk, swipe my ID and go vote. (Note: voting here is still done on paper ballots with an electronic scanner to provide unofficial vote totals)

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:23PM (22 children)

    by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:23PM (#782852)

    What are the Democrats going to do about the Republicans who lose an election, but make sure they prevent the incoming Democrat from exercising any power?

    Gerrymandering and suppressing minority voters are Republican stock in trade, and are anti-democratic but it looks like a coup in Wisconsin.

    Read this before you tell me how wrong I am, OK? [nytimes.com]

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:29PM (6 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:29PM (#782857) Journal

      I live in that state, and am disgusted to the depths of my soul with this. But nothing can stop it. I don't think anyone ever imagined this level of partisan pettiness when the system was being set up. Walker ought to be dropped off a goddamn cliff for this, with Vos dropped directly on top of him.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM (3 children)

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM (#782884) Homepage Journal

        In a conversation with a colleague he asked her "What church do you go to?"

        "I'm Jewish."

        "You're a Jew? I thought they killed them all."

        She abruptly quit her job then moved to California.

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @01:56AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @01:56AM (#782970)

          Then she tried to get a new job through Soggy Jobs, premiere fake job board, but as it turned out all the jobs are fake.

          The former teacher is homeless now. She lives under a bridge, eats out of a dumpster, and washes herself with wet wipes.

          Yet another life destroyed by Michael David Crawford.

          Fuck MDC

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:14AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:14AM (#783543)

            I'm from Wisconsin, and that's where I'm going to stay until my children are done with college.
            But...
            Every time I get a notification for a job, I list it on Soggy Jobs.

            FACT
            As in ...

            Fucking
            Anonymous
            Coward
            Troll

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:07AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:07AM (#783012)

          Based and redpilled.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:06AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:06AM (#782933)

        I don't think anyone ever imagined this level of partisan pettiness when the system was being set up.

        Oh please! You have to live under a rock not to see this kind of crap coming all the way from Illinois. Petty politics goes back to prehistory. In that regard, there's nothing to see here, move along. And take a trip up to Eagle River and see what people really think.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:11AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:11AM (#782973)

        Maybe the new governor can declare a state of emergency...

        I hope lawsuits have been filed, and that there is precedent to overturn the dead duck legislature for such egregious bullshit. But the voters should voted them out too. Weren't they up for reelection also? It's not like it's entirely hopeless or anything. Is there any opposition outside of Madison and Beloit? If not, oh well...

    • (Score: 3, Troll) by RandomFactor on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:41PM (12 children)

      by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:41PM (#782858) Journal

      Limiting the capabilities of the incoming politicians of the opposite party in lame duck sessions has a long and bipartisan history.

      Politics sucks, but this is hardly some new thing Republicans are doing (contrary to protestations to the contrary by impartial sources such as the NYT)

      --
      В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
      • (Score: 5, Touché) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM (11 children)

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM (#782883)

        Can you link any examples previous to this year, or done by Democrats? I did a quick search, but couldn't find any.

        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:46PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:46PM (#782886)

          How about Obama spying on, and continuing to try and remove a constitutionally elected president? All to protect his felon anointed successor.

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:12PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:12PM (#782894)

            Maybe you wouldn't be so protective of the current POTUS if he had sexually assaulted your daughter.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:51AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @12:51AM (#782947)

              POTUS told this woman "better put some ice on that" after raping and biting her:
              https://juanitabroaddrick.com/ [juanitabroaddrick.com]

              Then his wife grabbed her and coldly said "thank you for all you do for my husband":
              http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Juanita.htm [apfn.org]

          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:27PM

            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:27PM (#782904)

            Oh good lord, just take your meds. Please?

            You will feel better, really.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:54AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:54AM (#782986)

            Constitutionally elected by the Russians?

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by RandomFactor on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:15PM (3 children)

          by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:15PM (#782896) Journal

          There was discussion of this subject, some of its history in politics, as well as examples on a podcast [youtube.com] recently. I can't pin it down to which episode without re-listening to them (it's on my playlist while driving) which I'm not going to spend the time on. Be nice if there was a transcript, but if there is, it is hidden from the search engines.

          If you actually care or have some long trips ahead you can listen to the past dozen or so and you'll find the discussion of it (he's a fast talking Harvard Jewish conservative and actually not bad to listen to, but I like listening to talk from various sources while I'm driving and suspect YMMV considerably from mine. There are items in there which would appeal to left leaning listeners and Trump haters, but they aren't the majority.)

          --
          В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:31PM (2 children)

            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:31PM (#782906)

            I don't have any long trips coming up, which is a shame because I have a bunch of podcasts I would like to listen too also, but I would have thought that if preventing the opposition from taking the power they had been elected to assume was a time-honoured tradition of US politics, I would be able to find some mention of the Democrats doing it somewhere on the Internet.

            I still can't.

            • (Score: 2) by RandomFactor on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:56PM (1 child)

              by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:56PM (#782926) Journal

              'Won't', the effort to get your required level of documentation is known, but not low enough for you to do it (not unreasonable, I'm not really interested in going back through dozens of hours of podcasts either)

              Simply asserting invalidity however leaves nothing worth discussing.

              If I come across it or a similar discussion in my travels I may keep track and post it here, mostly that will mean it will have to gain legs to the point of becoming topical again.

              --
              В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday January 07 2019, @01:07AM

                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday January 07 2019, @01:07AM (#782951)

                I have genuinely done some searches to try to find any time Democrats have removed powers from incoming Republicans during lame duck sessions, but have not been able to fine a single mention anywhere.

                I can find plenty of contentious legislation passed when it arguably shouldn't, but I am now of the opinion that the awful behavior of the Wisconsin Republicans is a new low.

                Feel free to provide a link proving me wrong. If it really has happened before, maybe there's some evidence somewhere?

        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday January 07 2019, @08:00AM

          by RS3 (6367) on Monday January 07 2019, @08:00AM (#783083)

          I'm sick to death of partisan politics, and I'm no expert, and this might be an exception, but since you asked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benisek_v._Lamone [wikipedia.org]

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @01:13PM

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @01:13PM (#783147) Homepage Journal

          How soon we forget Tammany Hall...

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:43AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @02:43AM (#782984)

      Like the gerrymandering in North Carolina.

      The one that the democrats MADE in 1999.

      Republican stock in trade
      Ah blame the republicans for what the democrats did. Again.

      The democrats are not your friends. All they care about is power not helping you. Everything they are bitching about right now many have voted for and created bills to promote in the past. They are nothing more than power grabbers. Hell they wanted to impeach trump before he had even been sworn in. For doing nothing other than beating them. Do not think either 'side' is your pal. They are little more than sycophants who waste money and time with petty rules.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:29PM (1 child)

    by Thexalon (636) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:29PM (#782856)

    And it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. The reason for this is extremely simple: Political parties have made the decision that their electoral victory is more important than democracy. Once that line has been crossed, there's no possible way to make a fair election happen:
    - You can pass laws that make things better, but those laws won't be enforced if the people responsible for the enforcement are of the same party as the people who broke those laws.
    - You can invite international observers, but those international observers' findings can and will be ignored by whichever party won if the international observers don't come up with the same answer.
    - You can try electing tough enforcers of election law to the posts that enforce it (typically the secretaries of state), and those who got elected by being crooks will either loosen the laws or cut the budgets to make that enforcer unable to do their job.
    - You can use paper and other physical ballots. Even if they aren't made intentionally confusing, a bad guy can defeat those by having ballots mysteriously go missing if they don't contain the votes you want to count, or by changing the counts so much even while the ballots remain locked down that nobody looks at the ballots.
    - You can use electronic systems to vote. If you do that, you're going to have that system compromised, because there are so many layers from the hardware all the way on up to the application and everything in-between (OS, libraries, utilities like databases, etc) that there's going to be at least 1 vulnerability that will be successfully hidden. Remember, you have a lot of people with access to a lot of money who have every reason to want to compromise these systems, and the list of those people also not-infrequently include those at the companies making these electronic voting systems.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday January 07 2019, @02:21AM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday January 07 2019, @02:21AM (#782976) Journal

      Once that line has been crossed, there's no possible way to make a fair election happen:

      Accept our fate then, eh?

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Snotnose on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:54PM (4 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:54PM (#782862)

    the feds are going to need to be careful and deliberate in what they mandate vs. what they place conditions for funding on.

    Yeah, like that's gonna happen. They're gonna vote on the lobbyist written legislation written by the lobbyists who hand out the most bribes, um, sorry, forgot myself there, campaign contributions.

    If you think congress nowdays does anything for any reason outside of they either look like total idiots or money, you haven't been paying attention for the past 30 years or so. And they're willing to look like total idiots for enough money.

    How to fix? Hellifino. But no doubt our system is fundamentally broken.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:18PM

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:18PM (#782872) Homepage Journal

      That would mean they started accepting bribes in January of 1989.

      Consider that public funding of Presidential elections was enacted in response to Watergate-Era discussions of political corruption.

      But then I've got grey in my beard, because I invented the Internet.

      Fuck MDC

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @03:14AM

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @03:14AM (#782991) Homepage Journal

      Even lobbyists should prefer their laws stand up in court. Otherwise they're renting power instead of buying it and for the same price.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday January 07 2019, @03:24AM (1 child)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday January 07 2019, @03:24AM (#782995) Journal

      But no doubt our system is fundamentally broken.

      Yep, we broke it ourselves... And this isn't unique to the U.S. Maybe majority rule always ends up in a Mexican Standoff.

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @04:44AM

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @04:44AM (#783034) Homepage Journal

        It always ends the same. People find out they can vote other people's money into their own pockets. Then they vote for whoever promises them more OPM. This continues until the economy collapses. It can happen over a year or it can happen over centuries but it always happens if they remain any form of democracy long enough.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:55PM (29 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @09:55PM (#782863)

    H.R.24 - To require a full audit of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks by the Comptroller General of the United States, and for other purposes.
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/24/actions [congress.gov]

    H.R.25 - To promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25 [congress.gov]

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:15PM (26 children)

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:15PM (#782869) Homepage Journal

      IMHO Income is the ONLY thing that should be taxed.

      Sales taxes are _highly_ regressive, in that the proportion paid by the poor is substantially greater than that paid by the right. This because the poor cannot buy much else but the basic amenities of life. While its helpful that food is generally not taxed, clothing and vehicles are.

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:21PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:21PM (#782873)

        Income tax just encourges more spying, thats my biggest issue with it. That said, states would still be free to have them. Also, the best tax is tariffs, since everything entering and leaving the country can be spied on legitimately.

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:27PM (21 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:27PM (#782879)

        Also food/gas/housing is taxed heavily. Its called inflation and the "fuck you got mine" democrats love it since it makes their 401k numbers go up. No one who actually cares about the poor can be in favor of constant inflation, because wages always lag inflation/deflation.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @03:26AM (20 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @03:26AM (#782996) Homepage Journal

          You need to do some reading on economics before you talk about it. For starters, you should find out why inflation exists. It forces the rich to keep their money constantly moving and making more of itself or watch it decrease in value. That's right, inflation exists entirely to help the non-wealthy.

          Your specified beef wasn't even with inflation, though that's what you blamed. It was with wages not keeping up quickly enough. That very clearly says that the problem is with wages not with inflation.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:01AM (19 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @04:01AM (#783008)

            I am quite clear on the effects of inflation. Where I live the prices of everything that matteres (food, energy, rent) had doubled or its lowered in quantity/quality to equal out to a doubling since 2008. Meaning my friends living off wages had to move into smaller apartments, get another job, etc. This tells me the true inflation rate has been closer to 8% rather than the claimed 2%: https://i.ibb.co/GTLWp8c/inflation.png [i.ibb.co]

            Shadowstats gives a slightly lower ~ 6%, which I am willing to accept is more accurate than my hand-wavy "doubling": http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts [shadowstats.com]

            Finally prices are starting to drop back, which is a godsend to anyone living off of wages. Wages never keep up with inflation, it just doesnt happen.

            It forces the rich to keep their money constantly moving and making more of itself or watch it decrease in value.

            It forces people to invest money in projects that they otherwise wouldn't (malinvestment), and buy crap they don't need (produces waste and needless pollution), and fail to save for a rainy day.

            The best lesson I've learned about inflation comes from buying crypto years ago, when you expect your money will retain or even increase it's value, you are so much more careful about what you spend it on. This is a good thing.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @05:03AM (18 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @05:03AM (#783039) Homepage Journal

              Yes, malinvestment like your home loan, your car loan, your small business loan, your VC startup cash, and things like that. If you have a problem with the rate of wage increases, you fix the rate of wage increases. It's not a difficult concept. See a problem, solve that problem, utterly lack a problem. It's much better than see a problem, blame something else, monkey with something else, fuck things up for everybody.

              Oh, and splain to me how growing your worth by investing is failing to save for a rainy day, please. My math skills aren't up to crypto design standards but even I can figure out that $profit + $amount is always greater than $amount. Stuffing your money in a mattress is the worst possible thing you can do with it from the perspective of the overall economy and even more specifically from the perspective of everyone else who isn't wealthy. Yet here you are lauding it as a virtue.

              That's really the kind of nonsense I expect to hear from crypto/gold/whatever fans though and they're rarely worth conversing with, so I take back my request for an explanation.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @05:24AM (17 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @05:24AM (#783050)

                Yes, malinvestment like your home loan, your car loan, your small business loan, your VC startup cash, and things like that.

                So if it wasn't for inflation you wouldn't get a car or house or start a business? Would you still eat and buy clothes?

                If you have a problem with the rate of wage increases, you fix the rate of wage increases. It's not a difficult concept.

                So go solve it then? It is so easy... The real result is the entire idea of inflation is that the wealth will "trickle down", which is why it gets to wage-workers last. Any government attempt to correct this is going to lag (just look at their false calculations of inflation so they can scam people out of their social security).

                Oh, and splain to me how growing your worth by investing is failing to save for a rainy day, please.

                Your net worth doubles, and the price of everything doubles. It is a wash. The number got bigger which tickled your pleasure center and screwed over people without 401k's, but you are not actually wealthier.

                Sorry, I didn't go on. This is all well-covered and obvious territory.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @01:17PM (16 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @01:17PM (#783148) Homepage Journal

                  This is all well-covered and obvious territory.

                  Yes, it is. You appear immune to reason, logic, and math (like most crypto/gold/etc... people) though, so I won't further annoy you with them.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @07:01PM (15 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @07:01PM (#783296)

                    You are the one who claims people would stop buying houses and transportation, etc if not for inflation.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @09:02PM (14 children)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @09:02PM (#783371) Homepage Journal

                      Yes, I did notice your strawmen. They're simply not worth arguing with. Anyone who isn't actively and intentionally deceiving themselves saw right through those. Anyone who is isn't going to pay any more attention to what I have to say than you are.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @09:19PM (13 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @09:19PM (#783378)

                        How is it a strawman? You claimed it would be a malinvestment to take out a loan for a car without inflation. If that isn't what you meant, then what was it?

                        The truth is that is not a malinvestment if you can use the car to make more money than it takes to pay off the loan, or if having the car just makes you happy enough to pay for it. Now, in the absence of inflation you are definitely less likely to malinvest in a more expensive car than you need, etc. Which is a good thing.

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @09:34PM (12 children)

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @09:34PM (#783387) Homepage Journal

                          If it wasn't a strawman, you have no clue about economics. Like none at all. All those things I mentioned would be malinvestments as seen by the people whose money is being lent by your definition; they should be saving in a vault instead of allowing their money to be used to build someone a home, buy someone a car, or start a new company.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @10:26PM (11 children)

                            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 07 2019, @10:26PM (#783411)

                            All those things I mentioned would be malinvestments as seen by the people whose money is being lent by your definition

                            Yes, taking a loan gets more expensive. They just have to charge higher interest rates on the loan and/or be more careful about who they loan to to make the risk of people not paying worth it (ie, not a malinvestment). It is very simple and happens all the time even in the case of different degrees of inflation.

                            How do you keep saying I have "no clue about economics" without realizing that?

                            they should be saving in a vault instead of allowing their money to be used to build someone a home, buy someone a car, or start a new company.

                            Not if they can make more loaning it out or starting a new company. They will need to charge higher interest rates, only loan to high quality applicants, and only invest in really good ideas. These are all good things, ie avoiding malinvestment and waste.

                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 07 2019, @11:06PM (10 children)

                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 07 2019, @11:06PM (#783437) Homepage Journal

                              No, taking a loan gets all but impossible not more expensive. Saved money can't be loaned out no matter how high the interest rates because it's not there for the banks to loan. And yes, I'm well aware of fractional reserve banking. They still need that fraction to exist.

                              This means the poor you're so worried about don't get to own a new car. Ever. They're stuck renting their entire lives because they can't save enough to matter and pay rent at the same time. College loans? Yeah, those are gone too. You really need to look into how things were for the poor before inflationary currency was a thing. It'll give you a good idea of what things would look like in a future without it.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @12:38AM (9 children)

                                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @12:38AM (#783485)

                                Saved money can't be loaned out no matter how high the interest rates because it's not there for the banks to loan.

                                This is lack of liquidity, not deflation. You can have the currency appreciate but still enough money to around for people to spend *when it makes economic sense* for them to do so.

                                Now, if you have collusion between banks to cause boom-bust cycles by calling in loans and withholding new loans to purposefully cause defaults, you will get the problem you mention. This is not a problem with having a deflationary currency though (although you will get more demand for the currency as part of it). So in this case I believe you have confused cause and effect.

                                There is this quote, but admittedly ctrl-F-ing the supposed document is not revealing it (although similar discussion can be found on the bottom of page 569):

                                American Bankers Association, 1891, as printed in the Congressional Record of April 29, 1913
                                On September 1st, 1894, we will not renew our loans under any consideration. On September 1st wee will demand our money.
                                We will foreclose and become mortgagees in possession. We can take two-thirds of the farms west of the Mississippi, and thousands of them east of the Mississippi as well, at out own price... Then the farmers will become tenants as in England.

                                https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CRECB-1913-pt1-v50/pdf/GPO-CRECB-1913-pt1-v50.pdf [govinfo.gov]

                                This means the poor you're so worried about don't get to own a new car. Ever.

                                I've never owned a new car and would never want to, although I could if I wanted. It is a totally wasteful activity, exactly the type of stuff that should not be happening.

                                They're stuck renting their entire lives because they can't save enough to matter and pay rent at the same time.

                                The people I know who rent largely have higher quality of life than those who are stuck paying off a loan from the bank for the same income. Once real estate prices start dropping and states start trying to lock people in to pay off pensions, its going to move even more in that direction. The freedom to leave easily will be worth so much more.

                                Even owning outright is getting ridiculous with the property taxes in some areas. I was considering buying a house/condo last year, but doesn't even feel like "owning" anymore when taxes alone are ~$4k/yr but renting would be only ~3-x more at ~$14k/yr (half that if you can split it). I am going to need to look out of state...

                                College loans? Yeah, those are gone too.

                                Possibly the biggest scam of them all. No one should be getting these. I say this as someone with a PhD, it was 98% a waste of my time. The entire academic system needs to be reset to something similar to how it was pre-WWII. Scholarships should replace the loans.

                                So all these advantages you claim are actually malinvestments.

                                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:46AM

                                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:46AM (#783510)

                                  Some more evidence for that quote. Also from page 569:

                                  In 1892, following the general run on the banks of the country, already described, gold began to disappear and go to Europe and the National Treasury was soon drained of its supply of gold. It was then charged and has never been successfully denied that this disappearance of "Old was part and parcel of a general conspiracy, framed and carried into effect by sinister interests in the land, to force the hands of Congress to repeal the purchasing clause of the Sherman law.

                                  Also, interesting to read the discussion of tariffs back then when the US was basically as China is today (huge trade surplus, cheapest producer of many goods to Europe, etc).

                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:53AM (7 children)

                                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:53AM (#783513) Homepage Journal

                                  You can have the currency appreciate but still enough money to around for people to spend

                                  Sorry, there's not a damned thing you can do to stave off deflation in your ideal world except print more money. You don't get to force people to save or invest as you think they should in a free society and I guarantee you they're never going to act like you think they should on their own.

                                  Which makes the rest of what you said pointless to even read.

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:01AM (6 children)

                                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:01AM (#783519)

                                    Sorry, there's not a damned thing you can do to stave off deflation in your ideal world except print more money.

                                    I don't want to stave off deflation. You are still using that as a synonym of illiquidity, it isn't.

                                    The actual relationship is: loss of currency liquidity is one cause of price deflation (and yes, this has been used in the past to scam entire nations). They are not one and the same as you seem to think though, and you have cause and effect reversed.

                                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:10AM (5 children)

                                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:10AM (#783524) Homepage Journal

                                      That's fine. s/deflation/nonliquidity/ and read it again. Saved money is not there to be used. You have a choice of continually printing more money or continually creating ever smaller denominations to compensate for some people being much, much better at acquiring currency than others. There is not a third choice.

                                      --
                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:37AM (4 children)

                                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @02:37AM (#783530)

                                        That's fine. s/deflation/nonliquidity/ and read it again.

                                        I can't substitute and consider your argument sensical/relevant. Since they are two different things it totally changes the meaning of what you said.

                                        continually creating ever smaller denominations

                                        Not saying I agree with that dichotomy (haven't thought hard about it), but what is your problem with this? How is it a different problem from the need for ever larger denominations we are experiencing with inflation? Seems like a non-issue to me.

                                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:09AM (3 children)

                                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:09AM (#783539) Homepage Journal

                                          The difference is with fiat currency you can control the level of inflation or deflation. Let either one get out of hand just for a moment and your entire nation is proper fucked for a long time. If you're going to talk economics you need to sit down, throw out everything you've heard from fiat haters and lovers both, and do your own critical thinking. And then do some more because your first thoughts will be incredibly naive and badly incorrect. Anything that requires a change in human nature, throw it the fuck out because you're not going to achieve that. Not ever. Anything you think you have down, consider how it's going to interact with every other aspect of the economy and people on the ground's lives. What you're all gung ho on right now would starve millions in what's currently the wealthiest nation on the planet.

                                          --
                                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:41AM (2 children)

                                            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @03:41AM (#783548)

                                            Now you are conflating non-fiat with deflationary. I never mentioned fiat vs not regarding currency, in fact we are about to enter either a deflationary phase of a fiat currency (or, if the fed so decides to stop the rate hikes and asset dumping) see hyperinflation soon I expect.

                                            Anyway, I only advocated deflationary currency. You want to have a conversation about two other related, but different, topics without distinguishing between any of the three... Sorry, I think it is you who has muddled thinking on this topic.

                                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 08 2019, @05:27AM (1 child)

                                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 08 2019, @05:27AM (#783564) Homepage Journal

                                              It's an irrelevant distinction. Fiat currency is never deflationary on purpose. Everyone but a few nutters seems to understand why. But, hey, you can go on believing the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon too for all I care. Just don't try to convince me of any of it.

                                              --
                                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @05:42AM

                                                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 08 2019, @05:42AM (#783568)

                                                Keep thinking simplistically that non-fiat = deflation = illiquid currency then. Also that people who can distinguish between the concepts and understand the true relationships and explain it to you are idiots then. There is no helping you I guess.

      • (Score: 5, Funny) by RandomFactor on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:22PM

        by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @11:22PM (#782900) Journal

        Sales taxes are _highly_ regressive, in that the proportion paid by the poor is substantially greater than that paid by the right.

        Now that's a political Freudian slip if I've ever seen one.

        --
        В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 07 2019, @12:57PM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 07 2019, @12:57PM (#783143) Journal

        While its helpful that food is generally not taxed, clothing and vehicles are.

        You do realize that sales taxes vary wildly among the states? For instance, clothing is taxed, here in Arkansas. Sales taxes can also vary pretty wildly within the same state. 6% in one county, over 10% in another county. As a rule, I can save money by shopping in Texas - but I spend money on gas to get to Texas.

        But, I agree, sales taxes suck. I think the municipalities should get all their money from property taxes. Land owners can usually afford to be taxed, more than non owners. And, yes, I realize that I've expressed a willingness to pay higher property taxes. Income and property taxes both can be better justified than sales taxes.

        • (Score: 2) by J053 on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:26AM

          by J053 (3532) <dakineNO@SPAMshangri-la.cx> on Tuesday January 08 2019, @01:26AM (#783504) Homepage
          Also Hawaii - 4% nominal (actually, it winds up being 4.16% so the merchant doesn't have to eat much of it) General Excise tax on every transaction - food, clothing, medicine, everything. And it applies on each transaction (wholesale and retail), so it kind of stacks a bit like VATs do.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:23PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:23PM (#782877)

      Oh. That's why interest rate hikes have been halted.

      Both were referred to subcommittees on 1/3. Then the next day: Powell signals he’s flexible on interest rates but not resigning if Trump asks [marketwatch.com]. "Jewish Marxist" analysis published yesterday with some history of the Fed's economic role, Wall Street rules [wsws.org]:

      The Federal Reserve sent a clear message to Wall Street on Friday: It will not allow the longest bull market in American history to end. The message was received loud and clear, and the Dow rose by more than 700 points.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06 2019, @10:31PM (#782882)

        I watched that. Powell got asked if trump could fire him... everyone on stage and in the crowd broke out into uncontainable laughter. He also said that Trump never mentioned it anyway, just more fake news from anonymous officials.

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