from the It's-electric.-Boogie-woogie-woogie! dept.
Ford Motor Co. confirmed plans to build a fully electric F-Series pickup, which industry observers called an unexpected move that protects the truck franchise against Tesla and other competitors.
“We’re going to be electrifying the F-Series — battery electric and hybrid,” Jim Farley, Ford president of global markets, said Wednesday during a presentation at the Deutsche Bank Global Automotive Conference in the MGM Grand in Detroit.
In framing the company’s redesign, Farley said a move toward all-electric and hybrid would “futureproof” the billion-dollar F-Series franchise, which he called a “global juggernaut.”
[...] Creating an alternative to the combustion engine is crucial if Ford plans to protect its pickup franchise.
“Tesla is talking about coming out with an electric pickup. And look what Tesla has done in the luxury segment. They’ve clobbered just about everybody,” McElroy said. “You can’t pooh-pooh that people won't be interested in an electric pickup. Rivian Automotive is coming out with an all-electric pickup. These are the crown jewels for Ford Motor Co., the F-Series. Ford has got to react to competitive threats.”
Ford recently announced it would exit the market for cars to focus on its pickups. This announcement is another sign of the shockwaves Tesla has sent throughout the automotive industry.
[Ford is likely also keeping a watchful eye on Workhorse. --Ed.]
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by JoeMerchant on Thursday January 17 2019, @11:42PM (4 children)
"Shock waves" 'coz Elon is a surfer from California?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @12:08AM (3 children)
Elon is not from California. Elon is from South Africa.
And soon, Elon's little Tesla company will be nothing but a footnote in the history books.
The REAL car companies are going to crush Tesla like an empty beer can is crushed under the wheels of a 10 wheel dump truck.
Sort of like how Trump is going to crush that cunt Pelosi when the time is right, and there's nothing any of you SJW losers can do about it.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @12:20AM
That is not true. The SJW snowflakes *can* do something. They can run to their safe spaces.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday January 18 2019, @05:19AM (1 child)
Tick-tock, tick-tock.
There's never gonna be a right time, because there's not much time left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @04:05PM
23 months is "not much time"?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Sulla on Thursday January 17 2019, @11:58PM (16 children)
Looks and functions more like an el camino. I'll happily switch to electric when someone offers an actual truck, by which I mean something with an 8ft bed.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Farkus888 on Friday January 18 2019, @12:49AM (15 children)
Agreed, as a truck owner I want a hybrid, but real utility. Electric motive power at all times for the torque, plug in to charge the batteries and a generator for range extension. The generator needs to keep up while fully loaded towing, including the wind drag. I currently have full size cab and mid size bed f150 and that suits my needs so the equivalent space and payload there.
The day I bought my current truck I knew the plan was to keep it until that fantasy truck is available, and to upgrade as soon as possible. I'm a repeat customer so you know I'm good for it, come get my money Ford.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Appalbarry on Friday January 18 2019, @12:57AM (6 children)
I've been watching for something to replace our 2008 Ford Ranger - the "small" pickup that's the size of an F150 thirty years ago. What I'm looking for a truck designed for people who actually need a truck, not some super hi-tech Tesla wannabe flashy rig. Around here there are hundreds of pickups that regularly do less than 100km per day. THIS is the real market for e-trucks.
Sadly I expect we'll see a bunch of electric F350s first.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday January 18 2019, @01:12AM (2 children)
Hell yeah, there's a market for the Ranger Edge model, the small-pickup equivalent of a mullet: business in the front, party in the back. Unlike the larger mall-crawler models, it's unpretentious, and 'dat mat allows you to simply spray the interior the fuck down after a dirty day.
As for the larger trucks, Fords (except maybe the Raptors) and Nissans are now what the daddy's girls buy. Smart men secure in their manhood buy Toyotas, the rest buy GMC.
(Score: 4, Informative) by dry on Friday January 18 2019, @02:36AM (1 child)
The thing with a Toyota truck is you can prove your manliness when you disassemble the engine to replace the starter.
At least Ford has finally figured out what to do about their crappy trannies and sparkplugs that need a $500 tool to remove, unless they blew out first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @06:23AM
Yes you could prove your manhood that way, or you could just install an Anti-Aircraft gun on the truck-bed, and go do some Jihad.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday January 18 2019, @01:17AM (2 children)
If you are looking for something not like a tesla then your best bet is hybrid/electric F250s and F350s. The construction industry is going to want the truck to stay cheap and clean with vinyl floors/seats, limited electric crap that would distract their employees, and repair-ability that won't require a stealership.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday January 18 2019, @01:32AM (1 child)
Now this is true, and why Fords are the girliest trucks of all the American brands. Their dash info is simple and isn't trying to be a 747 cockpit.
False. "American" brands all have access to cheaper and more quickly available parts, and simplicity isn't always a bad thing when you gotta fix it. Nobody wants to drop the engine just to be able to replace spark plugs.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by toddestan on Friday January 18 2019, @03:42AM
Actually I wouldn't mind a dash like a 747 cockpit. The cockpit of a 747 is all business, it's just that you've got a lot controls, dials, gauges, displays, etc. to operate a 747.
What I don't want is some cheesy dashboard that looks like a 1990's Aiwa mini-system or a 1337 gamerz laptop, but sadly that seems to be the in thing now.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday January 18 2019, @01:10AM (3 children)
It seems to me that what we really need to make electric vehicles take off is a cheap, compact, high-efficiency gas or diesel generator. That, a gas tank , and enough batteries for 20-40 miles would let most people do 90+% of their driving on batteries alone, without any range anxiety for longer trips.
Personally I'd like to see some EVs without all the complex "high tech" electronics and screens - just give me a nice simple cheap vehicle with a battery gauge alongside the gas gauge, and maybe a switch that lets me toggle between "daily driving" and "road trip" modes so that the charging circuit knows if it should only kick in when the batteries are almost drained, or be maintaining a charge. The simplification inherent in electric should reasonably allow such a thing to be made even more cheaply than a traditional vehicle, while eliminating most of the emissions and dramatically increasing the low-end torque for the same top speed.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday January 18 2019, @01:19AM
The future of trucks is trains
Wiki on diesel-electric transmission
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday January 18 2019, @01:28AM (1 child)
If you want electric/hybrid vehicles to succeed, you need good marketing. And that marketing should be directed towards demographics other than venture capitalists, San Francisco programmers, hipsters, all other hollow virtual-signalers and upper middle-class bandwagoners, fags, and generally people who experience no labor or danger in driving whatsoever. If you want your electric or hybrid vehicle to succeed, you want to see at least one per day on the road that doesn't have Hillary 2016 or Apple stickers on it.
The problem with electric vehicles and hybrids is that they are still markers of privilege rather than utility. Put data and parts out there so that average Joe Shit the Ragman can buy the parts and fix it himself, and you're off to a good start.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Immerman on Friday January 18 2019, @02:38AM
Agreed - except that the wealthy and upper-middle class are actually a really good introductory target market for a product. It's a lot harder to convince someone to buy unproven technology that doesn't yet benefit from mass production when they can't afford it. In fact, big ticket impulse buys/virtue signalling, is probably one of the biggest contributions most wealthy people make to society. Building a customer base large enough to get economies of scale to start kicking in so that the prices can fall to the point that the rest of us can afford it.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday January 18 2019, @01:10AM
Agreed. My '16 supercab longbed with the v8 can get up to 28 highway, when towing 11k from Alaska to Oregon I averaged 23. In stop and go town traffic I can't break 13. I would love a hybrid to handle the stop and go. Ford has said previously that the 2020 should be a hybrid, but we will see.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:06AM (2 children)
I mean the biggest gripe I've heard is the new aluminum framed F150s are shit for what a truck is used for. And since that was done to meet emission and fuel economy requirements, it should be completely possible for them to backtrack on it now that those requirements are being mooted by a switch to hybrid or fully electric drivetrains, which while reducing 'empty' fuel economy capacity a bit will actually improve towing capacity as the frame will be able to withstand the abuse common to most F150 owners (which I imagine are mostly farmers/contractors needing a heavy duty work truck, just based on those I have spoken to. Yuppie truck owners obviously can own whatever, since it is perception not practicality they care about.)
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday January 18 2019, @06:58PM
> I mean the biggest gripe I've heard is the new aluminum framed F150s are shit for what a truck is used for.
I would be glad to learn about actual practical examples of the Al frame being the problem in a truck.
The guys at Ford are much better material engineers than me, and I already know that the right Al grade will have strength similar to steel, at a lot less weight. Since i don't believe Ford would risk their cash cow with such a radical change without doing, redoing, and triple-checking their homework, I'd really like you to show me actual examples of the shittitude of the Al frame.
(disclaimer: I pretty much hate all of those pickups, steel or Al, unless I see them loaded to the brim with construction stuff, which is a tiny portion in my suburbs. Don't mistake me for a Ford fan)
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Saturday January 19 2019, @04:55AM
The body on the new trucks are aluminum, the frame is still the same steel it always was. They did increase the sixe of the frame, on my 2013 it appeared to be 2"x4" and on my 2016 it is closer to 4" x4", makes jacking it up to work on it much easier.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Interesting) by richtopia on Friday January 18 2019, @12:53AM (2 children)
I cannot help but think this move is because Ford is truck-heavy in their USA lineup. CAFE is based on the manufacturer's lineup efficiency, so adding in an electric vehicle helps.
Outside gaming the system, I'm not surprised by the electric truck. Fleet vehicles often make good electric candidates with predictable drive cycles. We already saw this type of vehicle with the Ranger-EV and S10-EV.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday January 18 2019, @01:13AM
Ford will also have to make up for the loss in their CAFE average from dumping the majority of their small car lines to streamline production. Their ecoboost engines appear to be able to handle the expected load and at the same time improve the gas mileage, and it appears that the 700 they shaved off by switching to aluminum made a difference as well. In general I don't have brand loyalty, but they have been making a lot of good advances the past couple of years. It was also nice to see them working (colluding?) with gm over the past few years to produce a 10 speed transmission for pickups.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 18 2019, @01:42AM
EV is the new hotness - the street will be discounting stock of vehicle companies that don't have an EV roadmap. This (the EV F series) is to protect Ford executive level options value. In reality, this is the investors' proxies (fund managers) telling Ford how to run their company.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Hartree on Friday January 18 2019, @01:02AM (8 children)
I drive an F350 diesel for towing trailers. Top end isn't what I'm after, it's usually about low end torque and braking. Electric motors excel at that, so a hybrid could work well. Regenerative braking would be able to recover a fair amount with a heavy load and store it in a small to medium size battery pack.
So far, the battery technology might be a bit lacking for an all electric full performance in range and payload (battery packs are heavy).
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 18 2019, @01:49AM (6 children)
Look at both the weight, and the cost, of a battery pack that can source the equivalent energy of 10 gallons of diesel fuel. It's not there, not even close.
If you're looking for a hybrid with a battery pack that can source the equivalent of 1 liter of diesel fuel - that's not outrageous today. Unfortunately, I don't think the pickup truck application can de-rate the IC engine too much just because there's a short burst of torque available from the electric side, so you're basically adding a whole parallel EV system while retaining most of the cost in the IC drivetrain.
We paid less than $20K for our current pickup truck when we bought it brand new in 1999. That 5.9 liter V8 is still humming along just fine, even if the body has collected a few dents over the years. I'm guessing that a hybrid F series is going to start at $60K and go up from there, full EV maybe more like $80K with today's tech.
Also, electricity isn't really free... at current rates it might be 1/2 the cost of gasoline, but when they have to start beefing up the grid to power everybody's home charging stations, and taxing it to replace lost fuel taxes for road maintenance, it's going to come up even closer to the present cost of petrol.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Friday January 18 2019, @01:35PM (5 children)
I think the best we can hope for, at least initially, is enough luxury buyers to jump on board. That will spur further investment, and we might get the technological improvements required eventually, especially with respect to batteries.
As far as your truck goes, I'm glad it worked out for you. I think it's always most cost effective to stick with something used over new. A new non-hybrid pickup can get crazy expensive in a hurry. Though a stripped regular cab truck isn't that bad. I live in a wealthy area, I see F-250 Platinums and such left and right, and most never even hauled a folding chair.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 18 2019, @09:53PM (4 children)
Me too - 4 vehicles in our fleet, the newest one is a 2002. The cost to repair and differential cost of fuel for the less efficient drivetrain almost never works out to more than the capital depreciation costs, for us at least. We drive ~20-25K miles per year, total, so that really hurts any economy of efficiency for us.
When we bought our '99 we lived in Miami, priced it out online, took the printout to the dealer and they told us "that truck doesn't exist, here's the closest you can get" and showed us an invoice that was almost $30K. We (walked out, obviously, and) took the printout to a dealer in a small town and they explained to us how the custom order calendar works (custom orders have to be in by something crazy like March, then there's a blackout until September or so when you can custom order for the next model year) and also explained how we could join the Farm Bureau for $50 and get $500 back from the factory, but, sadly, couldn't sell us "our" truck. My dad just happened across one that 99% matched our list in his hometown, had been custom ordered and then not picked up. The major difference was that it had the 5.9 liter V8 instead of the 5.2 that we wanted, but in 1999 gas was like $1.20 a gallon, so....
In any event, if you didn't already know, big city car dealers can be completely unhelpful jerks... and they sell a lot of top-end optioned trucks to people who seem not to care that they're paying 50% more for a bunch of crap that they might not even want. But, this has gone on forever and is likely to continue into the electric era (if there is one...) As you say, those "who cares about the premium" customers are likely the ones to finance the first wave of e-vehicles, after the government incentives go away.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Friday January 18 2019, @10:54PM (3 children)
2002? That's impressive. We run our cars until it's more expensive to fix them than replace them, but we rack up the miles fast so the older of the two vehicles we have is just from 2010 and has 150k miles. Our 2007 minivan with 187k miles needed $6,000 in repairs in 2017, so we ditched it.
I know a lot of people with shitty finances that buy low end new cars over used ones because the value of predictable costs outweighs the value of lower costs. An $18,000 Toyota Corolla that is Toyota's problem if it breaks for the first five years is often better than a $6,000 used car. If the $6,000 used car loses a transmission before it's paid off the buyer probably can't fix it or get finances approved on a replacement while they still owe a good chunk of the $6,000, so they're really in deep trouble. But in our case we could have afforded something older, we bought new for luxury. Our two year old minivan is a Chrysler Pacifica and the magic feature that made us spend all that extra money was: 8 USB ports. That way there isn't a five way fight over who charges their electronics every damn time we get into the thing. I'm hoping we're going to buy used going forward.
Shopping for vehicles is always a mess. When our previous minivan died I contacted six different Chrysler dealers asking for a quote on the trim level and color we wanted. All six had that exact model in stock listed on their websites, it's a common combination. Three of the six got back to me, but two of them only said, "Come to the lot to check it out." One gave me a price by email. We bought it there, and we told them they won the sale because nobody else would even show us numbers up front. We were renting a replacement minivan for $500 a week, with the benefit of hindsight I should have just rented it two more weeks and bargained harder with the dealers. I probably could have saved at least another $1000, which would have covered the rental cost. Some people got the same trim for $3,000 less than we did. You live, you learn.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:09AM (2 children)
Our miles are low: 1991 2 seater owned since new, 115Kmi daily driven until about 4 years ago, but we never lived too far from work... Needs more love than it gets, but I'll be damned if I'm selling it for the $3K it might bring on the open market. I bought this one during the first Gulf War, good deals on new cars were easy pickings for a couple of months there.
1999 2 seater - auto trans for the wife, 110Kmi when we bought it off Craigslist for $2500 about 5 years ago, about 130Kmi now. Have been treating it right, might have $2K in maintenance/repairs, might be able to sell it today for $3K or so, but I'm pretty sure it has at least another 20Kmi in it before anything expensive goes, maybe 70Kmi or more...
1999 truck owned since new, 145Kmi - gets parked a lot because of the cost of fuel, but seats 6 and does "truck stuff" really well. I'm guessing it will be sticking with us until at least 200Kmi. Maintaining things like tie-rod ends, shock absorbers, etc. really keeps it feeling fresh. The dealer we bought it from was happy to let it go for $500 over invoice, it had been on their lot unsold for over 6 months...
2002 bought ~3 years ago with 45Kmi, currently around 95Kmi - big Benz, family car, gets most of the miles these days - only paid $12K, so not much to lose on the depreciation side. Some day it will get expensive to repair, but so far it has been pretty reasonable. Compare with the 2014 Hyundai Sonatas and Dodge Chargers we were looking at when we bought it - they were running around $20K with ~20K miles, it takes a lot of gas and a lot of maintenance to eat up an $8K cost differential, and the big Benz is a much sweeter ride along the way. The dealer had a $11,750 price in the window when we saw it, I think bluebook was $11,500 at the time - when we came back for a test drive the next morning window sticker was gone and the first price they quoted us was $13K - managed to drive it off the lot for $12,000 total after all their BS fees and the state registration stuff, but not sales tax IIRC - I think their "price" on the final deal was $10,500+++. Pretty happy with it even if we did pay $500 over "excellent condition" in the book, it was right down the street from home, the next closest similar car with similar miles was listed 300 miles away... These cars listed for $80K+ when new, insane. Even more insane, bluebook value on the car is now down around $4K.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Tuesday January 22 2019, @03:48PM (1 child)
The Benz is S-class, right? Nice.
I work full time remote since late 2013. But from mid 2001 to present my wife and I have put a combined 700k on the vehicles we owned, so we're averaging more than twice as many miles per year as you. Some of that's work, some of it is being dumb enough to settle in suburbs and have four kids we have to drive all over.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 22 2019, @05:45PM
Yeah, a "bottom of the line" S430 - really sweet car.
I had been looking for a smallblock 1969ish Buick Skylark or similar to restore with good A/C and probably a fuel injection conversion (drop-in carb replacement), the wife wanted a new-ish Sonata or maybe Charger... the S430 was a great compromise.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday January 18 2019, @01:52AM
I have an E350 diesel, quite happy with it.
Would love the 10 speed transmission, as diesels do have a rather pronounced sweet spot as well as saving all those joules which usually are spent uselessly heating up the slush box.
Another thing I would love is a 120/240 volt power access fit for compressors or welders.
I'd be game too for a small electric car, which will accept being charged by towing it...so, once I beach the whale at some campsite, I will have a small car for errands.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1) by NPC-131072 on Friday January 18 2019, @02:00AM
From gas [theguardian.com] to electric. How progressive!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @05:28AM
[F]ound[O]n[R]oad[D]ead should also make the cargo bed out of aluminum ... oh, wait...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @01:43PM (7 children)
... even monthly?
Use a car and a trailer, that's how normal people move stuff.
(Score: 2, Informative) by NateMich on Friday January 18 2019, @04:23PM (3 children)
About the same number of people that need a CUV. How many people that own a Wrangler need one?
Like 1% or so. Something like that.
You can take this further of course, and argue that nobody needs a car with more than 100HP, or a bunch of other things, like say third row seating.
But none of that matters, since the car companies are in the business of selling people what they want to buy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @06:29PM (2 children)
Well, SUVs are just big, fat cars really. Sure, many people don't need an SUV really either, and that's another question to ask. Trucks on the other hand are even more clearly a weird choise to drive around, when there's so very clear lack of need for it.
I just don't understand why genpop would like to drive a truck, when all they need to move is groceries and suitcases 99% of the time. Not to mention that it is an open space back there, so easier for anyone to
steal the cargo. And frankly, most of the time i've seen people just using it as garbage can for McDonald's wrappers and such.
There were some real nice station wagons in the 60's and 70's, why did they dissapear from the states?
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday January 18 2019, @06:51PM (1 child)
Last sentence of the comment you're replying to. Read it again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @09:23PM
That sentense does not matter, because i am questioning the people buying the damn things, i'm not questioning the corporate reason.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday January 18 2019, @06:55PM (2 children)
I work on a lot of projects. I use the bed of my truck about monthly. And I'm the resident city-living-liberal!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @09:25PM (1 child)
Then you might have a need for one, but as said, a car with a trailer would most likely work just aswell, no?
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Saturday January 19 2019, @05:09AM
Not sure where you live or your experiences with trailers but i have always found them to be a pain int he ass. I use a truck on a regular basis and can't afford a second more effecient car for bmming around town. I go to the hardware store for plywood or 8ft boards weekly and i would rather be able to go straight from work to there rather than doubling back to my house to hook up the trailer. Trailers also mess with turn radius and backing up. Sure an 8ft trailer is nothing compared to my 20ft one, but i would prefer only use it for towing vehicles or several tons of hay.
For a lot of people it comes down to not wanting to be caught unprepaired and if they want to buy new the small trucks get the same gas mileage as the big ones. I don't like seeing the jacked up pavement princesses, and a bed shorter than 8ft makes me cringe, but whatever. The answer will never be to tell people they cant have something, it will be to change what they have into something thats not a problem.
Electric will mean more torque, that will please rednecks. Electric also meansi can fill up at home, which sounds good too. Easier to sel someone into an elecric truck than sell them into a prius.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam