Anti-vaccine nonsense spurred NY's largest outbreak in decades
Health officials in New York are cautiously optimistic that they have a large measles outbreak under control after tackling the noxious anti-vaccine myths and unfounded fears that fueled the disease's spread.
Since last fall, New York has tallied 177 confirmed cases of measles, the largest outbreak the state has seen in decades. It began with infected travelers, arriving from parts of Israel and Europe where the highly contagious disease was spreading. In New York, that spread has largely been confined to ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities. As measles rippled through those insular religious communities, health officials ran into members who were wary of outsiders as well as those who harbor harmful myths and fears about vaccines. This included the completely false-yet-pernicious belief that the measles vaccine causes autism.
To quash the outbreak, health officials met with rabbis and pediatricians in the community, who in turned urged community members to be vigilant and, above all, get vaccinated, according to The New York Times. "Good people, great parents were terrified," Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, founder of Darchei Noam yeshiva in Monsey in Rockland County, told the Times. Despite the fears, he insisted parents vaccinate their children. "They felt that I was asking to give their children something that would harm them."
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Anti-vaccine advocates appointed to Minnesota autism council after measles outbreak
Officials in Minnesota have appointed anti-vaccine advocates to a newly formed state council on autism, sparking controversy in the wake of a record measles outbreak in the state.
State senator Jim Abeler formed the MN Autism Council last fall to address issues surrounding autism, including "treatment, educational options, employment opportunities, independent living, and more." While about one in 59 children in the US are diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, the rate in Minnesota is one in 42.
Though the council is not designed to take up the issue of vaccination, it has been ensnared in controversy due to the anti-vaccine sentiments it includes, according to a report in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. At least two of the council's more than 30 members are skeptical of vaccine safety and oppose compulsory immunizations. One of those skeptical members, Wayne Rohde, was one of three initial people Abeler appointed to the council. Rohde was charged with helping to shape the council and with picking other members.
Related: Anti-Vaccine Movement Linked to Measles Outbreak in New York
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @07:56PM (5 children)
Let's call it as it is. They're not so much anti-vax as pro-epidemic.
(Score: 5, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday January 18 2019, @08:24PM (3 children)
That's completely unfair. The particular polio nutters in Pakistan are pro-endemic.
(It's worth noting those peoples' conspiracy theories about vaccines being a front for the CIA to spy on them and collect their DNA are totally based in reality [theguardian.com])
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:03PM (1 child)
Damn the CIA for that.
Seriously, killing off Polio was worth so much more than anything that the CIA was going to gain.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:10PM
Try telling the CIA that.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @02:18PM
Supposedly they found him. Supposedly Obama's SEALs killed him. And supposedly, buried at sea. But, where are the pictures of all that? Or, any of it? Not on their Instagram. And I said, bring me the Hard Copy. But I get the run around. Like it never happened -- a total Fake!
I'm from New York City. Great town. But we had a horrible epidemic. Called AIDS. Very big thing in New York. And this was before it was a thing in Africa. But, so interesting, it became so big just after the Blood Bank went to the gays. Did the Study on the gays of the Experimental Hepatitis B Shots. Sponsored by Jimmy Carter's C.D.C. And suddenly, so many of our gays were getting very sick. And dieing. Absolutely dropping like flies. And I've heard they did these experiments in other Cities too. San Francisco. L.A. And Chicago.
And we have the "tape" of Maurice Hilleman. Doctor from Merck. And of Merck. Saying, he looked into the Polio shots, the ones they were making at Merck. The so-called Live Virus Vaccine. Shots that went out to millions of folks. And they were full of SV40 -- Cancer Virus. And, leukemia (Blood Cancer) virus. And saying "So we brought African Greens in and I didn't know we were importing the AIDS Virus at the time." And his friends having a huge laugh over that one. When I was a kid, nobody knew from leukemia. Very rare. And now it's exploding. And so many folks getting Cancer now. And Dr. Hilleman says how he did, they call it the killed virus vaccine. Also known as the Salk Vaccine. But, the SV40 isn't killed. It's mostly killed, but not totally. 99.99%. Sounds like a lot, unless you're a Germophobe like me. And they're still doing that one. So interesting! But, very scarey. youtu.be/rSc8mJtem0k [youtu.be]
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @01:04PM
"In New York, that spread has largely been confined to ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities." The Article.
Look, I'm from New York. We have more Jews than anyplace. And a lot of our wonderful Jews are Orthodox. But if all the Orthodox folks got sick, that's not an epidemic. Because it's not that many people. The Article doesn't call it an epidemic. And even the Fake News New York Times doesn't call it an epidemic. You're trying to scare folks over a nothing.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday January 18 2019, @08:06PM (62 children)
It's that simple.
His one study, where he was paid big bucks to get a particular result, turned into an entire movement of parents refusing to protect their kids from disease because they feared it might give them autism. Even though study after study after study has demonstrated quite conclusively that he was full of crap, the paper has been retracted, and Mr Wakefield was drummed out of the profession in disgrace. Never mind that the rest of the anti-vax push has been repeatedly shown to be based on nothing but innuendo and ignorance.
Surprise surprise, immunologists and doctors know more about viruses and vaccines than Jenny McCarthy does. Maybe all that school learning and experiments and peer review might be worth something.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday January 18 2019, @08:18PM (58 children)
He wasn't even paid big bucks for it. He wanted to pitch his dumbass alternative MMR vaccine and tried to create demand for it by hurt the reputation of the existing one. That was his conflict of interest.
Then he discovered and backed a movement of psychos who hate their kids to fund the rest of his life with speaking engagements and alt-med endorsements.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @08:32PM (25 children)
You obviously don't have kids.
Some day the idiotic bullshit you write is going to get you into trouble you won't have an answer for.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Sulla on Friday January 18 2019, @08:49PM
Or you know he has kids but doesn't want them to get autism resulting from Measles, which is more likely than getting autism from the MMR vaccine.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday January 18 2019, @08:50PM (16 children)
Not as much trouble as a case of the measles would be.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:13AM (15 children)
When the measles vaccine was first introduced the reaction of most parent's was "why?". They did not understand why anyone would bother for such a minor thing that everyone got as a child.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @05:37AM (10 children)
Facts get downvoted as troll constantly on soylent these days.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4007870/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:00PM (9 children)
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html [cdc.gov]
So yeah, a preventable disease which can have serious complications ... but why prevent it when you can be sick and potentially die instead? Explains the drunk drivers
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:26PM (6 children)
Do you think you are disagreeing with me? I stated a simple fact about how measles used to be perceived (as not a big deal) before the fear mongering became required when their vaccines didn't work as planned (they expected eradication of measles in 1967).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 20 2019, @04:20PM (5 children)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @12:18AM (4 children)
It is always interesting when facts arent challenged by facts but by changing the subject. I never mentioned vaccine efficacy. I presented a simple fact that measles was not considered any more "scary" than a cold or skinned knee, etc that children commonly experience at the time vaccinations were introduced.
I also see you don't remember our previous conversations about how that graph ignores at least:
1) changing definitions of measles (replacement of clinical measles diagnosis with antibody tests)
2) changing tendencies of doctors to diagnose/report measles
3) introduction of public health campaigns meant to stop people from purposefully spreading measles amongst their children
So whatever percent can be attributed to the vaccine, it is somewhat less than what we see in that chart.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 21 2019, @01:11AM (3 children)
Good advice, you should take it since instead you wrote:
And 4) introducing irrelevant "facts" to confound the issue. None of those three are sufficient to explain the orders of magnitude drop in measles cases (and yes, I realize the next step is for you to dump several links that will confirm that argument) - especially since the same trend is seen globally every time the measles vaccine was introduced. This argument is a retread. I can't find it in Google where I corrected this nonsense before in SN (did old pages fall off the search algorithm?), but it's the same opening move. When I have time, I'll try to find the corresponding thread.
But as an aside, does anyone here believe that making the obvious point that an enormous drop in measles cases (without corresponding increases in other diseases that could be confused for measles like chicken pox) is only due to reporting difficulties and these reporting difficulties happen every time the measles vaccine is introduced to a new population?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 21 2019, @04:15AM
I thought at one point I had done a more detailed discussion of various studies that had been brought forth in such a discussion, but I guess not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @05:01AM (1 child)
There are still about 20k cases of measles like illness (no chicken pox isn't one) each year.
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=29667&page=1&cid=788467#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 21 2019, @02:58PM
Which aren't measles nor necessarily virus-related (contrary to your assertion in that post). For example, rashes from first time allergic reactions could trigger such a test with nothing infectious involved.
Rashes and fevers can come from a variety of causes and doctors in the US have long taken a stand of better safe and profitable, than sorry when it comes to medical tests. It's far easier and a bit more profitable to run a test for measles given a vague suspicion than to chance it and risk malpractice lawsuits.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @02:30PM (1 child)
Kids get a hell of a lot of ear infections. Measles or no measles. What's the connection to the measles?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by rleigh on Monday January 21 2019, @07:37AM
Secondary infections as a result of the measles virus. Staph is typical.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:56AM (2 children)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919948/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:08PM (1 child)
Too bad you stopped there. Because the next sentence is, they hired the P.R. firm. The Ad Men. Whose job is, talk us into liking people & things that are bad for us. And buying the things that are bad for us. And bad for our beautiful children. You've seen Mad Men, right? The Cigarettes with the Asbestos filter, and just the plain cigarettes. So many phoney Doctors -- and some real ones -- told us it was healthy. Just like that. But, with needles!!!
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @03:02PM
(cont) The Link about the Cigarette Ads w/Doctors. From Rupert Murdoch's magnificent news.com.au. Thank you, Rupert! news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/the-time-before-cigarettes-were-bad-for-your-health/news-story/7c3e11e6f0dc774eacbafb49f2a09078 [news.com.au]
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @07:13AM
Thank you. I had it, it was a nothing. An absolute nothing. In school all us kids had it -- almost all. No Vaccine. ZERO. And we grew up beautifully. 100%. They would say, get it while you're young. Because if you grow up and then get it, you look very foolish. So different today. The Doctors have to make their living. So they put dozens of Vaccines in all at once. And very soon -- autism. TINY CHILDREN ARE NOT HORSES!!!
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday January 18 2019, @08:52PM (3 children)
I always have an answer for the idiotic bullshit I write.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @09:03PM (1 child)
More idiotic BS, no doubt.
(Score: 2, Troll) by ikanreed on Friday January 18 2019, @09:12PM
Oh absolutely, I'm a huge fan of bullshit such as not murdering my own children.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday January 18 2019, @10:03PM
You're doing better than me then.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Friday January 18 2019, @09:06PM
4/10, incomplete death threat.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Friday January 18 2019, @10:49PM
Unlike you that doesn't have kids because they died of polio or measles, right?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 20 2019, @04:28PM
Sounds like you're proposing we kill a bunch of kids by refusing to vaccinate them. Keep in mind that if we had the same incident of measles as we did in 1960, we'd have 800k cases a year and there would be a lot of deaths, permanent disability, etc.
I hope that willful stupidity isn't inheritable.
Veiled threats merely because someone disagrees with you on the internets? Very pro. ikanreed occasionally says stupid stuff on the internet. This isn't one of those times.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by edIII on Friday January 18 2019, @09:44PM (31 children)
Really? You know that's not true, and you're just being an asshole right?
Parents don't want to hurt their kids (by and large with very few exceptions statistically), and the real problem is both the scientific community and the toxic paradigm of profits-at-all-costs in Big Pharma. It's just like the recent GMO article, and nobody in that one was picking out the same problem.
TRUST.
The scientific community needs to own the levels of distrust. This has been going on for quite some time, but definitely since the father of junk science [wikipedia.org] turned lying-for-profit into an artform by backing it up with "fake" science. It's agendas everywhere in science, and manipulation far and wide with p-hacking and other methods of ensuring your original hypothesis was correct and that the data supports it. Search for truth my ass. Then you also have the very real problem of most science not being peer reviewed enough, or reproduced sufficiently. Open Access journals is one way to start. Most people couldn't read a study, but most people aren't complete idiots either and can see knowledge locked up behind paywalls. Once that happens, it's very hard to trust.
Then take Big Pharma. Too-Big-To-Face-Consequences. How often have we seen those hellbound fuckers justify what is essentially murder? They drive the agendas behind bad science with their greed, money, and market dominance providing all the jobs to feed families. When you have execu-fucks in Big Pharma hiding reports to make sure they can still get a product to market, you cannot blame the public! Big Pharma has engendered fear and mistrust in a great many people. That's not through ignorance or hatred of children they may have, but fear of something happening to the people they love.
With both GMO and Vaccines, the least sophisticated among us are blameless in the face of greed, corruption, and profit driven harm against the consumer. The government that's supposed to protect us with regulations simply fails us. Every time. The FDA has been just one big fucking rubber stamp. When the FDA says a large corporation is too big to face the consequences the law demands (dissolution of the corporation), and justice is not provided to those "statistics", people lose faith. If science was closer to the ideal, or much closer in fact, and Big Pharma was regulated with execu-fucks facing death sentences, then I might agree with you just a little.
However, the world is a fucking corrupt piece of shit run by avaricious mother fuckers that would run over their grandmothers for a nickel. I'm not psychotic for distrusting agenda and profit based science, nor am I a "rube" when I notice execu-fucks getting a pass even though thousands died in the process of getting to market and they fucking knew it.
I would not get any child vaccinated in the USA, or from USA based manufacturing/research of vaccines. The USA is a backwards hellhole for medicine, and I would take my kids to Europe. Try to get them vaccinated in a civilized place like Norway, or Japan. Hell, I'm willing to trust China more than the USA, since China has ZERO problems putting a bullet in a execu-fuck and billing their family for it.
That's what missing in your implied argument; Accountability and nobility in the motivations and intentions of those involved in either GMO or vaccine manufacturing. That, and you're never going to convince anybody, especially me, that there is any safe level of mercury in the body. There isn't. Just what the FDA conspired to make it so that profit can continue, that is in direct conflict with the EPA's own guidelines on it.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ikanreed on Friday January 18 2019, @09:53PM (13 children)
Man, that's a lot of words for "I hate my kids so much I want them to die painful and preventable deaths"
(yes, I read what you actually said, and no, it didn't change my mind about you hating your kids)
(Score: 2, Informative) by edIII on Friday January 18 2019, @10:32PM (10 children)
Then you can't read you stupid fuck. I said I would take my kids to Norway or Japan. Or did you not read that part? Can you not understand the difference between believing that vaccines are bad and that vaccines are produced by bad people in a broken system?
I notice you decided to go with a character attack, instead of responding to the very real arguments I presented. *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap*
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:03AM (9 children)
So ... non-bad vaccines are produced by bad people in a broken system, and you would rather go to a different country with good people which produces ... chemically different vaccines?
(Score: 5, Informative) by edIII on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:10AM (8 children)
It's not about the science. I'm not arguing that vaccines as a concept are not proven. What I'm arguing is that you cannot trust a corporation, or the entire system around vaccine production, for chemically identical vaccines, inside broken countries like the United States. Likewise, you cannot blindly trust their research, as they haven't earned that level of trust. In fact, they've widely earned the distrust placed in institutions that ostensibly serve our healthcare needs.
Yes, good people in good systems can produce good vaccines that are chemically identical (WRT formula), and bad people in bad systems can produce low quality and inferior vaccines. I would trust the manufacturing process, and the selection of chemicals (that can be substituted), in a place like Norway, Japan, or even China, much more so than places like the USA. It's because the regulations and culture itself are better (China will fucking shoot those bastards), and I believe I can trust that the vaccine was made properly. In the specific case of Thimerosal, I would trust good people to choose something different. That compound is not fundamental to the vaccine, or how they work. It's an additive used during manufacturing akin to HFS in a fucking drink. Just like you can replace HFS with Stevia or some other sweetener, Thimerosol was replaced after uproar in 2001. That was a good thing. It was only ever there because it was a cheaper and execu-fucks don't care about statistics, or whose kids get hurt. Only profit. Profit makes everything ethically and morally correct to the bad people. Again, there is no safe level of mercury, and absolutely zero scientific justification to inject it into a child. Period.
In short, I wouldn't trust my kids in the US medical system to receive proper care that is void of the corrupt influences caused by avarice. How can I when people have died (becoming the unfortunate statistics) because some execu-fuck conspired to hide/alter studies/data showing that there was a problem? Hence, why I wouldn't trust vaccine research that came from the USA, unless it was reproduced and verified by an EU country that is highly rated for medical. Vaccines are more or less a settled science, so whatever research is going on would seem to be material sciences for supporting chemicals like preservatives, and not a fundamental paradigm shift with a new type of vaccine that operates differently. Meaning, they're always searching for cheaper chemicals to make more profit, and the vetting of those chemicals is weak as single-ply toilet paper.
Science itself isn't the problem here, and it's human beings that are the fundamental problem. I trust science, but I have zero trust for the people claiming to be performing "science" in systems that reward sociopathic behavior with zero accountability. The FDA has earned our distrust, and Big Pharma more than deserves all of the distrust it receives.
I wholly reject fucking assholes like ikanreed that completely dismiss these very real arguments about the human behavior behind vaccine production as anti-science when they are most certainly not. Unlike you, he resorted to character attacks that are extremely offensive. None of these people, including the orthodox communities in the article, hate their children. That was trolling, and ikanreed deserves being called out for the asshole he is being.
People love their children, but don't know who to trust. If we are really being honest, has science earned our trust lately? Really earned it with impeccable behavior and integrity? Likewise, has Big Pharma engendered distrust, or trust with it's complete lack of accountability with people having died to serve greater profits? Same goes for the institutions that are supposed to protect us by evaluating these drugs properly, and are supposed to punish those that game the system to hide problems to bring faulty "products" to market. That, in of itself, truly highlights the problem; Medicines seen as products that must receive ROI, even though they are highly suspect during testing and have killed people.
Recognizing the corruption that human filth bring to the equation is not anti-science, nor deserving of the derision it quite often receives. ikanreed can stick a cactus up his ass sideways today.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday January 19 2019, @04:11AM (2 children)
No True Scotsman fallacy. Science IS a human endeavor. It will always be tainted by social dynamics. Acting like some sort of "pure science" exists that is immune to such forces isn't very reasonable given that science is always performed by humans.
I actually agree with a lot of your criticism of the corporate medical systems in the U.S. and elsewhere. But your conclusions are just wacky. You really think medical research is immune to things like profit motives and ambition elsewhere? I agree the U.S. system is out of control, but crappy science can and has come out of all of the countries you say you'd "trust."
Anyhow... I'm not trying to engage in whataboutism, but it's important to note flaws can be found everywhere, and thus one needs to find pragmatic solutions... which yours is not.
Yes, they most certainly are. Whether you want to define "science" as your lofty idealistic vision that cannot exist in the real world (where there is no corporate influence, no individual ambition, no motives other than bettering knowledge) or whether you want to define "science" to mean what actually exists in the flawed human sphere -- the anti-vaxxers are most definitely ANTI- both of those definitions of "science."
You have some stuff that makes sense (which I assume is why you've been modded up), but you throw all of that in service of defending anti-vaxxer behavior! Absurd! Even if I am to accept your assumption that the corporate medical system in the U.S. is so utterly screwed up, it would still be a rational choice to vaccinate given statistics!
If you and your anti-vaxxer friends really want to behave like this, we should make a special place for you and all of them to go, where your kids can slowly die off in droves from all the childhood illnesses that used to run rampant throughout human civilization. What's that? You want modern medical treatment to help lower that deathrate?? Sorry, but you can't make use of any materials or supplies or services from the corrupt medical/scientific/corporate system you've rejected your vaccines from.
In sum -- you are correct that the system is screwed up. You are correct that it is perfectly valid and important to recognize this, to fight it, to criticize it, to call it out and yell about it. But to do so in the context of defending anti-vaxxers as if their choices were somehow rational and not anti-science!?! If you truly believe that, icanreed's criticisms of you are wholly justified here -- you must hate your children and wish them to die. That's the only rational conclusion, based on statistics and scientific empirical evidence of what would happen were people to adopt your philosophy.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by edIII on Saturday January 19 2019, @04:53AM (1 child)
You're arguing semantics here. Science is a METHODOLOGY, or framework. It can exist wholly separate from humanity, and for that matter, you presume only human life in the universe, and that science as a methodology and process only occurs within humanity. I do not. The "pure science" I alluded to is not unreasonable at all, and entirely possible. However, just like you pointed out, it's tainted by social dynamics. It doesn't have to be, and saying that it can't is tantamount to just giving up and settling for shitty non-reproduced poorly reviewed agenda driven science. There are many things that can be done to improve how human beings perform science.
I reject your conclusion and see science just like math, in that both most certainly exist beyond humanity.
I never alluded to perfect. What I said was better, which isn't hard since the USA sets the bar so damn low. I believe they are more accountable, and their culture is better, meaning the executives are less sociopathic or willing to engage in bad behavior.
You've fallen into the same damn trap as the rest. Denigrate and call these people stupid, when the base issue is the lack of trust, and then blame them for the problems that exist in science and corporate culture that cause the very same lack of trust. That's what I'm pointing out. If you really want to reach people, then science and corporate culture needs to change and become better. You've given up and are willing to settle for shitty science, which will only ever perpetuate the problem.
EARN their trust back, and that happens by the FDA actually dissolving bad pharma companies (regardless of size), selling their IP to compensate the victims, and then moving forward. Executives MUST be imprisoned for murder when it comes out that they knew people were going to die, but allowed it to happen to push a product to market. This has happened, and the Too-Big attitude allows them to be unaccountable.
But.. Yeah... let's blame the least sophisticated here for their fully justified levels of distrust in the system.
Go fuck yourself.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @08:54PM
No humans, no scientific discovery. Kinda that simple.
Is there still objective reality that science and math attempt to describe? As far as I can tell, sure. But you've acknowledged science is a process, a methodology or framework is what you said. It is not the reality itself. Science is the description used by humans for that reality, and without humans you have not science.
And it matters because otherwise you're holding humanity up to a standard it can never reach. (A perfect modeling of that objectivity). No wonder it won't meet your standards.
Aside from that I also think you have one of the worst cases of the grass being greener in a different country that I've ever seen. But I could be wrong. Either way I'm satisfied with the vaccines I've received and promote others to have. Then again, international travel is out of my economic reach.... And the reality is that many of the largest drug recalls in history were from countries other than the U.S. Many were inside the U.S. also, of course. But nowhere near universally. It would be interesting to look and see how many recalls of medication actually originated from work done in countries outside the U.S. (i.e. why is it always in the U.S. that the bad drugs seem to be discovered, but I might be wrong there, too). Greed does not know boundaries, and nor does government corruption (if that is what it be).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday January 19 2019, @04:28AM (1 child)
Oh, and before you accuse me of trolling like you did to others, note that I don't actually think most anti-vaxxers hate their children and want them to die. I'm saying that's the logical conclusion of your argument. To wit, either:
(1) Anti-vaxxers love their children but are fundamentally anti-science.
OR
(2) Anti-vaxxers are pro-science but must hate their children and want them to die.
You can't be pro-science and advocate the actions of the anti-vaxxers unless you want kids to die. Simple as that. Complaining about the medical system and even pushing it strongly toward better action is one thing -- but anti-vaxxer rhetoric and action goes far beyond that into anti-science BS.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:36PM
OR
(3) Anti-vaxxers are pro-science but hate big pharma more than they love their kids
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:23PM (2 children)
these anti-anti-vaxxers are ignorant, arrogant sycophants. they think by sucking up they are in the know when in fact they are the ones making people's kids invalids, for lack of a better term. if they really cared about science or people they would demand clean, third party tested vaccines with full accountability for the harm that is done. the numbers/rates of vaccine damage are not being reported/tabulated and people don't realize how many people's kids are being fucked up by their blind trust in these scum. it's not just about one doctor or one ingredient. this is about many things, none of which are being dealt with. just boot licking authoritarians trying to tell people what to do with their kids. let me explain something to you motherfuckers. i'm stockpiling ammo for you bitches and i'll have plenty of vaccines for your disease.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:30PM
I bet you are one who spreads fear that infants cant be vaccinated. Thus making it politically impossible to deal with the earlier waning maternal antibodies from vaccinated mothers. The age needs to be moved up to at least 9, if not 6 months.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @08:56PM
I am reminded of the words of Luke Skywalker. It is amazing. Every single thing you said in that paragraph is wrong.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by deimtee on Saturday January 19 2019, @05:47AM
I hate his kids too*, but I still modded him informative. The problems across the board are that 'scientists' have sold out. Vaccines, GMO's, global warming, toxic chemical levels, nuclear power, all have bullshit science on both sides. You can't blame some pleb for picking whatever side he prefers just because those fucks can't get their house in order and do science instead of money-motivated politics. There is plenty of evidence for whatever outcome you prefer, and no way for most people to tell what is real and what is bullshit.
*Not really.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @02:33PM
One word: Vioxxx.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:34PM (15 children)
So I understand completely where you are coming from, but if you are so upset then try learning some of the science so you can make decisions for yourself. Obviously you have to research where a vaccine comes from and all that to assuage your fears of Evil Pharma Exec #666 but perhaps start here https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228 [fda.gov] where they talk about mercury right away.
I'll even grab the relevant paragraphs for you
So A) the mercury in vaccines is supposedly safe unlike other forms of mercury (do you even chemistry bro?) and B) the level is so small your children will be exposed to more lead if they eat a single tuna fish sandwich. If you STILL don't trust the vaccine creators then buy two samples of the vaccine and have one tested to verify the levels. It will cost you a good bit to get the testing done, but what is the price of knowing your child is safe?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @11:25PM (1 child)
Would it be worth my time to go find the fda minutes where they discuss how the vaccines were all contaminated with a virus for years? And that virus causes obesity in chickens too iirc.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:10AM
I can't find the link. It is in one of these...
https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/20170403184505/https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/acmenu.htm [archive-it.org]
It is looking like they all need to be downloaded and then searched offline.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by edIII on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:09AM (2 children)
You've forgotten, or omitted, a quite salient fact. That is Thimerosol wasn't intrinsically required since it was a preservative. They replaced it in 2001 because of the PR. In the document you referenced:
See? We never had to use it in the first place. So why even risk the consumption of a toxic compound when there are safer alternatives? Again, you detractors conflate distrust in the system with a lack of sophistication. Yes, I "chemistry bro". Yes, and I would never feed a child a tuna sandwich. The FDA relented to lobbyists in Big Fishing that complained they could never sell fish again unless the levels were increased to TWICE that the EPA guidelines suggest. Why? Global levels of mercury have doubled in the ocean within the last 50 years or so, IIRC. You would trust a system in which the FDA and EPA don't even agree on what levels are safe? You need to agree to a safe level before you can even begin testing for it. Regardless of what any of you say, the global levels of mercury have made eating some seafood just plain dangerous and unhealthy.
The price of knowing my child is safe, is what it costs to take them to a different country that has different manufacturers, and operates under different regulations, while possessing strong consumer protections. All of them ostensibly without the extreme bullshit of Too-Big-To-Fail and Too-Big-To-Face-Consequences.
The USA is not one of those countries, and a lot of Americans apparently can't handle the ugly truth; We're far below the top 10 in just about every metric that matters, and are infested with the toxins that avarice and sociopathic behavior creates within our society.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1, Troll) by ikanreed on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:44AM (1 child)
because "toxic compound" is a meaningless descriptor without dosage. Especially with an antibotic compound as inert as thimerosol.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @05:35PM
You say, "oh it's a great and very safe antibotic." Great for killing Germs. But, you get sick. You go to the Doctor. And the Doctor never says, "oh, take this Thimerosal and you'll get better." It's an Ingredient. They don't make it the 100%. So interesting!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rleigh on Saturday January 19 2019, @05:17PM (9 children)
Thimerosal is a very effective preservative. The trace amounts used in vaccines are quite inconsequential, and post little risk to health. It was replaced only due to the huge amount of fuss made by nutters, and the replacements aren't as good or effective, and this both reduces the shelf life and makes it more likely that the vaccine can become contaminated, and hence a health risk. What are the risks of the replacements? It's all about the tradeoffs, but the nutters aren't too good at logical reasoning and carefully evaluating risk.
A parent who is worried about thimerosal is a parent who needs to get a bit of perspective. The protective effect of the vaccine far outweighs the risk. And it's been in use for decades without any problems. We have all had vaccinations with thimerosal, likely as not, and it didn't harm us in any notable way.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @06:12PM (7 children)
you don't know shit you goddamn suck ass. you're believing the scum at the cdc and the pharmaceutical companies. you don't know the rates of brain damage/autism that are being caused. you're just regurgitating what you've been told like a good little slave.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rleigh on Saturday January 19 2019, @09:08PM (6 children)
Thanks for the polite and informative reply. I do hope you're trolling as opposed to being dangerously ill-informed.
I did my PhD in an immunology laboratory. So I do actually know a thing or two about vaccines, and thimerosal and its alternatives. Look at the full details here. https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/thimerosal [nih.gov] It's absolutely a very toxic compound. However, I hope you're properly aware that the amount of mercury used in a vaccination is tiny, on the order of micrograms. Also, most of that will ultimately get excreted. So the amount ultimately left in the body will be extremely small and insignificant.
The method used nowadays is to store the vaccine with thimerosal, and then remove it before usage. It can't be removed entirely, but the already small levels are now reduced much further.
There is not, and never has been, any connection between vaccines and autism or brain damage. Nor has there been any connection between vaccines containing thimerosal and autism or brain damage. Vaccines can on rare occasions have adverse reactions in specific individuals. However, this is unrelated to autism. Stop being so hysterical for a moment, and ponder this: even if vaccines *did* cause autism (which they don't), it would still be worth the risk because the risk of dying or suffering permanent disfiguration, paralysis or brain damage would be several orders of magnitude higher. As it is, the connection does not exist, and the chances of a child randomly getting autism vs suffering from any of the previous is many orders of magnitude. The hysteria over autism is a complete failure to evaluate the relative risks involved, and obsess over an insignificance versus some very real and very scary consequences should an unvaccinated child catch measles, polio, diptheria etc.
Get a clue. Your misinformed opinions are actively dangerous to the wellbeing of your family and others around you, and you should be ashamed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @09:53PM (4 children)
Different AC.
This isn't written with a scientific-level of care... Perhaps you want to clarify:
https://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-vaccine-injury-death.aspx [nvic.org]
Then this:
The danger from measles is very low as well. I'm sure in 20 years people will fear monger about chicken pox the same way (My parents got me infected on purpose, just like their parents did for measles). It wasn't a big deal for the vast, vast majority of people:
The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review. Robert T. Perry1 and Neal A. Halsey2. The Journal of Infectious Diseases 2004; 189(Suppl 1):S4–16. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b7e0/c83a2232536a507ef061563000b59d97db66.pdf [semanticscholar.org]
Just saying, you aren't doing your cause any favors with these inaccuracies. People may be uninformed but that doesn't mean they are dumb.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rleigh on Saturday January 19 2019, @11:22PM (3 children)
> This isn't written with a scientific-level of care
No. No, it isn't. That's because the post I replied to was so devoid of sensible thought, I assumed they would be incapable of grasping that level of nuance, so I stated it much more bluntly to be sure it couldn't be misinterpreted.
Regarding encephalitis and encephalopathy as a result of MMR vaccination. This is most likely nothing to do with thimerosal, and everything to do with it being symptomatic of a full-blown measles infection. Vaccines work by stimulating an immune response based upon an attenuated or inactivated form of the virus (inactivated for most measles vaccines). You're essentially having a low-grade but non-fatal infection and/or immune response to prime the immune system for a potential future infection with the real thing. In some rare individuals, the reaction can be more severe.
The danger from measles or chicken pox is high if you are unvaccinated. The overall mortality rate used to be up to 1/500 in the West. And that's not including the serious complications which aren't fatal, like brain damage or permanent hearing loss. In some parts of the world, mortality rates approached 50% when indigenous populations were first exposed to it. It's absolutely a serious infection. And that's not even adding in the other viral infections like chicken pox and polio. Puts the chance of autism properly into perspective, doesn't it? Yet the nutjobs still worry about vaccination.
We only treat these infections as inconsequential due to the pervasiveness of vaccination programmes. Measles epidemics were some of the primary causes of infant mortality and lifelong disability, but we haven't seen a serious measles epidemic in our lifetimes. That's why we have vaccination programmes in the first place. Measles can be fatal. It can cause brain damage, permanent loss of hearing, as well as other serious side effects. Polio can cripple for life. If you aren't vaccinated in childhood and you catch measles or chicken pox in adulthood, they are both extremely serious, much more serious than for childhood, and can be fatal. None of these are "not a big deal". That's complacency due to the effectiveness of our vaccination programmes.
The paper you linked to is fine. But note the dates of the data collection for the complication statistics. It's in a society with established herd immunity, and that absolutely affects the results even for unvaccinated people. Were herd immunity to be lost, those numbers would be very likely to change.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 20 2019, @07:19AM (2 children)
You didnt say due to thimerosal, you said "There is not, and never has been, any connection between vaccines and autism or brain damage."
You mispoke, I'd recommend being more careful in the future (keep in mind that on a site like this the audience is primarily other people who read your conversation). Your claims about the danger of measles are also inappropriate, since they refer to a time well before the vaccination campaigns were introduced. When vaccinations were introduced it was closer to 1/10k cases:
There are other issues but really whatever, my point is your posts aren't convincing to the audience when they are sloppy like that. That's all, I'll just stop there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 20 2019, @07:22AM
Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20789272 [nih.gov]
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Sunday January 20 2019, @08:42AM
You're right, I did miss speak about that. It would have more appropriate to say that the chance of that happening is extremely remote, and compared with the risk of complications or death without vaccination, is a minor consideration at best. The reason I stated it in such black and white terms is that there are far too many people who are incapable of understanding or assessing risk, and end up obsessing over unimportant risks whilst ignoring the big ones. Like worrying about autism, when death and brain damage and deafness are far bigger problems to be concerned about.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday January 20 2019, @05:14PM
It's a money thing -- like so much in life. They still use Thimerosal for the Multi Dose. But, not for the Single Dose. Single Dose costs more money. Because, more glass for the Singles. Like if you bought a big bottle of Vodka. Versus, buying the same amount in little airline bottles. Much cheaper in the big bottle, because it's less glass. But if you're sharing it with somebody, you better be careful about Germs. You better take some precautions there. The little airline bottles, you just give somebody the whole bottle. And she has it all to herself. And by the way, Thimerosal doesn't always work. Doesn't always kill the Germs. And then what you have is the Doctor giving a shot of Germs. Directly into the Blood Stream of, sadly, a tiny child. Not great! infowars.com/dispelling-myths-regarding-the-use-of-thimerosal-in-vaccines [infowars.com]
(Score: 2) by edIII on Saturday January 19 2019, @10:09PM
My issue with the substance is that it contains Mercury. I have my own experiences with toxic levels in my body just from eating some goddamn fucking Tuna. Levels in the ocean doubled in the last 50-100 years, and corruption prevented California from outright warning citizens about said levels (Federal government sued California to stop them). The EPA and FDA can't agree on safe levels, and it was the FDA corruptly influenced by fishing lobbyists to increase their levels from the EPA's levels. Most fish like tuna, if you tested it, have unsafe levels according to the EPA, and yet are still sold on market. Absent the corruption, there would be very strong warning labels about limiting consumption. However, last time I went to the store the cans of tuna contain zero warnings. Hence why anything the FDA says I treat with huge asteroid sized grains of salt, and I always believe they're influenced by lobbyists and their money. I want the FDA to be corroborated with European institutions.
I really don't give a shit that it's in an organic form, and I understand the differences. I don't believe it justifies the use, and that's it more appropriate to choose something else. Removing it before injection through some other process is acceptable though, as long as that process is well understood and vetted of course.
Responding to your other post at the same time here,
All the more reason for them to cut corners to increase profits. Avarice as a disease makes corporate America constantly search for greater and more profits. They cannot accept something that cannot continually increase in profit somehow.
The difference would be in quality control, and the selection of preservatives and other compounds necessary for the vaccine to be stored, shipped, etc. While I don't have specific evidence of malfeasance, there is plenty of evidence for malfeasance in general WRT Big Pharma. I don't trust them, and they've roundly earned my distrust. The corporations in Europe I see differently, and are much more likely to be populated by less sociopathic people that would cut corners and produce inferior and/or dangerous medicines. Vaccines are really only one small part of the bigger issue.
My original point was that the average public has no way, or justification, to trust the scientific and medical community and unfortunately, high profile reasons to distrust them. The FDA is supposed to dissolve a pharma company when they are caught knowingly hurting people, but this hasn't happened in several instances. The excuse has always been a Too-Big-To-Fail excuse, and the executives involved faced no justice. Fines are NOT justice when people have died, and executives have zero accountability to the public.
It's not wrong for them to be suspicious when we are treated like cattle with an acceptable loss rate, statistically speaking. So when I hear fucking assholes like ikanreed unfairly denigrate families that are frightened for their children, I just remind everyone that the scientific and medical community are most certainly responsible for their share of the distrust. Sitting back and smugly calling them uninformed idiots only sticks their heads in the sand, and ignores the glaring problems in how we perform science, and how we regulate the medical community (which Big Pharma is a part of) to protect our citizens.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Saturday January 19 2019, @05:23PM
Vaccines are without a doubt one of the miracles of science. Of all the things government and pharma do, making and distributing vaccines is one of the cheapest and most effective measures to improve general public health. It's not something which the pharma companies make a lot of money from, compared with cancer drugs and the like.
I'm unsure why vaccines produced in the US would be materially different from those manufactured in Europe. The protocols for making them are pretty standardised by now. Do you have any actual evidence that this is a problem?
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:02AM
What people ultimately believe is colored by wishful thinking. In this case just by not doing something(people don't like to do stuff you see) they have a chance to get ahead of other people, by avoiding vaccine side effects other people would get.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @04:22AM
Fun fact about Jenny McCarthy and her doctors, they totally misdiagnosed him. Once they treated him for LKS, he started to recover but rather than admit that it was that the whole time, they just pretend it is the gluten-free diet and removing toxins.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Sunday January 20 2019, @06:27AM
Most types of topsoil know more about vaccines than Jenny McCarthy does. I saw her on TV once, she could barely string a coherent sentence together without a teleprompter.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday January 18 2019, @09:05PM (4 children)
It's too bad that Darwin Awards cannot be conferred exclusively upon the Anti Vaxers, and have no impact on the rest of the sensible population.
Now if only someone would invent a natural consequence for flat earthers. And moon landing hoaxers.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Kalas on Friday January 18 2019, @10:20PM (2 children)
1) A Darwin Award winner must of course die. Refusing to vaccinate your kids is putting them at risk of death or other harm, not the parent.
2) Darwin Awards are never given to people who kill someone else in the course of their stupidity.
https://darwinawards.com/rules/ [darwinawards.com]
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @11:27PM
I don't know, i guess it's kind of an honorary Darwin award, if your offspring dies, because of you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:41PM
Darwin Awards are for people who selectively remove themselves from the gene pool. Killing your children before they reproduce is a perfect strategy to accomplish just that.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:24PM
You don't want the Liability for your Tweets. Very irresponsible. And that's something that maybe will work. And, maybe it won't. Well, our Vaccine Companies are just like that. They want to be in business. But not take the liability. And our horribly corrupt Politicians let them do it. By setting up, it's called Vaccine Court. That one's a Ronnie Reagan number. And it's an absolute joke, it's a Kangaroo Court. Very hard to win in that one.
By the way, before the Vaccine Court. Folks could go to regular Court. And they were getting millions and millions of dollars there. And the Vaccine Companies, so many of them quit making the stuff. Not all. The one that was left hired the Crooked politicians. Said, "oh, give us a Crooked Court." And here we are. With so many folks very badly damaged!!!!
(Score: 2) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Friday January 18 2019, @09:25PM (7 children)
Anti-vaxers got sick for rejecting something out of fear of getting sick. How ironic - and sadly stupid at the same time.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by cmdrklarg on Friday January 18 2019, @10:00PM (6 children)
Were it just them I'd have no problem with letting them kill themselves. Unfortunately their stupidity also affects others due to the loss of "herd immunity" and those who are unable to be vaccinated for various reasons.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:02PM (4 children)
There is no measles herd immunity...
(Score: 3, Informative) by cmdrklarg on Friday January 18 2019, @10:05PM (1 child)
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/herd-immunity-and-measles-why-we-should-aim-100-vaccination-coverage/ [iflscience.com]
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:18PM
Measles vaccine is supposed to be only 97% effective, so the percent vaccinated required to achieve herd immunity is even higher (~98%).
They originally promised measles would be eradicated in 1967, didn't work out that way:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=28571&page=1&cid=761716#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:10PM (1 child)
I don't know what you are talking about.
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/herd-immunity-and-measles-why-we-should-aim-100-vaccination-coverage/ [iflscience.com]
This page is explaining why the largely touted 90-95% herd immunity level is not as clean cut as you'd hope, but a herd immunity still exists.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:15PM
Herd immunity means a large enough percent of people are immune (not vaccinated, but immune) so that the virus dies out (for measles they estimate ~95%). Obviously it isn't dying out.
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:32PM
They don't say died. They say cases. And they say, under control. Meaning, some folks got sick. But they're getting better, very quickly. Which is what happens with Measles. And I think if anybody died, if anybody is dieing -- about to die -- we'd hear about it. A lot. That would be in the headline for sure. But you say, "oh, they can kill themselves." Something even the Crooked Doctors aren't saying. I know your kind, believe me. You love to scare people. Over a NOTHING. Which is what Measles is. It's a very very minor thing.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @09:50PM (7 children)
When are these people going to figure out measles is a seasonal phenomenon?
https://image.ibb.co/iM5f4S/Measles_Cases_By_Week.png [image.ibb.co]
Every year we get this "anti-vaxxers cause measles outbreak" like it didnt happen the year before going back centuries if not millenia.
(Score: 2, Touché) by nitehawk214 on Friday January 18 2019, @10:57PM (5 children)
Seasonally outbreaks in communities with a lot of anti-vaxers.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @11:31PM (4 children)
The point is that if it is seasonal, it is always circulating. And there's like 20k cases of "measles-like" illness in the US every year caused by unknown virii, measles is ruled out due to negative antibody tests that dont even correlate with each other.
Walter A. Orenstein, Rafael Harpaz; Completeness of Measles Case Reporting: Review of Estimates for the United States, The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Volume 189, Issue Supplement_1, 1 May 2004, Pages S185–S190, https://doi.org/10.1086/378501 [doi.org]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308917 [nih.gov]
(Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:49PM (2 children)
There's the measles-like. And, there's the polio-like. They say, "oh, look at the Polio going away!" Because, somebody gets Polio. Goes to the Doctor. And the Doctor, so many times, doesn't want to say Polio. And look very foolish. Because, hardly anybody gets Polio. Supposedly. So the Doctor says maybe M. S. or other things. Not Polio. And the so-called M. S. is going up and up. As the Polio, supposedly, goes down very low. It's a beautiful sight. If you don't know what's really happening there.
And by the way, A. D. E. M. Not the Bible guy. This one is the disease that people get after they get the Polio shot. They don't call it Polio. But it eats and eats and eats at your Brains & Nerves. So horrible!!!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:05PM (1 child)
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/135/Supplement_1/S16.2 [aappublications.org]
https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/is-india-actually-free-of-polio/article7945687.ece [thehindu.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 21 2019, @03:07PM
"Clinically" is not good enough. If it's not an actual infection by polio virus, then it's not polio. As with measles, there are other illnesses that can mimic polio, and these need not be infectious. Plus, in a country of over a billion people with a sudden increase in concern and awareness of polio-like illnesses, they're going to see a bunch of them.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 21 2019, @03:02PM
Sorry that is a fallacy in more than one way. Just because someone orders a test for measles-like symptoms doesn't mean that a virus was the cause. And you're still way, way shy of the number of observed cases of measles prior to 1960 even if we choose to pretend that all those cases would be reported as measles prior to 1960. On the second link, there's nothing relevant (this would be the non sequitur fallacy). A common measles test has a slight false negative rate. They're not going to miss 20k cases of measles as a result.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:41AM
yeah but it makes millions for the drug dealers... I mean companies
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @09:50PM (1 child)
Is this essentially only a problem amid the settlements of inbred jewish sects that have sprung up in Rockland County?
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:02PM
They don't call it inbred. They call it insular. But, possibly it means the same thing!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:10PM (2 children)
So, at best you get 0.97*0.925 = 89.7% coverage. For measles you need 93-95% to get herd immunity: https://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2017/october/2._target_immunity_levels_FUNK.pdf [who.int]
So basically measles vaccination in NY is a money making scheme. If it wasn't they would make sure to get at least 98% vaccinated (95% covered).
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 18 2019, @10:13PM (1 child)
Quote source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/nyregion/measles-outbreak-jews-nyc.html [nytimes.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @07:04AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1228954/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 2) by noneof_theabove on Saturday January 19 2019, @12:30AM
I have the measles and everything else except mumps, still have tonsils so I'm very careful.
That was called "natural immunity" and people deliberately had the kids hang out.
Oh, never has had them again including shingles, a fancy name for adult chicken pox.
Our current society is so FUBAR.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:51AM (1 child)
... with measles. Doubtlessly, Hilarity Will Ensue.
Clark County Washington's measles outbreak - only children so far - has sixteen confirmed cases. So Far.
If you want to keep up to date with this manner of stuff, subscribe to the National Institutes Of Health's "Morbidity And Mortality Weekly Report". Mom once worked for a County Health Department; her manager subscribed to it. That I leafed through an issue once was a real Eye-Opener for me.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:56PM
That one's a CDC number. Some very scary reading in there. Very scary. Especially for a Germophobe!!!
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Saturday January 19 2019, @01:58AM
Bonita once pointed out that for toddlers to eat dirt evolved in humans resistance to disease, because that dirt inoculated them. (Note that vaccination and inoculation are two different things.)
She further pointed out that heavily-hyped cleaning products lead many mothers to completely _sterilize_ their entire homes - my Mom sure did! - with the result that babies are no longer inoculated by crawling around on the floor.
My friend Ann Brolly, a Molecular Biologist, confirmed this when I mentioned in to her, and told me that it's called "The Clean Baby Hypothesis".
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 19 2019, @02:28AM (1 child)
Autists don't breed, and we're overpopulated as is with whites. This is a useful way to keep their numbers down while the people too poor to afford vaccines are by and large POC.
It isn't a conspiracy of course, just serendipitous synchronicity assured by the goddess.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday January 19 2019, @03:14AM
Vaccines are FREE at public clinics. You know, the places where poor people go for health care.
Further, some places have mobile clinics that offer free vaccine to anyone who happens to pass by.
Also, there's so little profit (and so much regulatory overhead) in manufacturing vaccine for human use that the major market problem is getting any company to do it at all. Frex, last I heard, there are NO U.S.-based manufacturers of flu vaccine (at the time all flu vaccine came from a single facility in England, which is why there was a shortage).
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.