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posted by janrinok on Thursday February 07 2019, @02:43PM   Printer-friendly
from the two-birds-with-one-stone dept.

Reuters reports of an experimental drone system tested recently in Germany. Unfortunately there's not a direct link, only this story on the ITNews site:

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/germanys-dfs-rheinmetall-demonstrate-system-to-prevent-drone-disruptions-518969

Basically, a good drone takes down the bad one, as in this excerpt:

"In December, authorities regained control over the Gatwick airfield only after the British army deployed military technology to guard the area. But shooting down drones, or immobilising them with electromagnetic pulses or even jamming them, is impractical at civilian airports given the possibility of inadvertently causing harm to people or aircraft.

Instead, DFS and Rheinmetall, Germany's largest arms maker, have tested a solution that could be highly automated, connecting existing air traffic data with advanced radar systems, acoustic and infrared sensors and optical equipment to first detect possible intruders, and then neutralise them with other drones.

In Wednesday's demonstration, which was hosted by the German military's Technical and Airworthiness Centre for Aircraft (WTD61) about 50 km (35 miles) north of Munich, a "good" drone threw a net over a potentially threatening one, taking it to the ground."

Nets definitely seem the right approach to me. What do you think?


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  • (Score: 4, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:03PM (19 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:03PM (#797778) Journal

    They certainly won't make it in Hollywood with nets. There have got to be explosions. And not just explosions, but explosions at least an order of magnitude larger than necessary to destroy the target. There must be collateral damage, even it it's only the neighbor's dog.

    • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:13PM (14 children)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:13PM (#797780) Homepage

      This is why one of those navy-style ship-mounted lasers might actually be a good idea -- especially if you could modify the power based on the range for safety reasons, if they are as effective as the military say they are. They could easily bring down a consumer drone but are too wimpy to cause collateral damage to real airplanes.

      Plus you could have a motherfucker operating it like a video game, going "pew-pew-pew!"

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:23PM (7 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:23PM (#797790) Journal

        Still room for collateral damage! That class of 17 little children, who were watching the drone flying will be blinded, for life in some cases! That will make superb propaganda for the TSA.

        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:32PM (5 children)

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:32PM (#797793) Homepage

          Wait a minute. How the hell does this even happen in civilized countries? Aren't drones large enough to have a camera locked-down from certain regions of airspace? I accidentally tried this once (near the beach) not knowing I was in restricted airspace and the motors on that bitch wouldn't even start. Oh, maybe the display showing a "restricted airspace" with a GPS overlay on the map should have tipped me off.

          Yeah, I'm sure some electronics whiz could buy one of those and install a GPS signal generator and other custom electronics to bypass everything, but if you're gonna go through all that hassle, then you might as well be a fucking terrorist and fly that thing right into the turbofan intake or propeller of an incoming plane. Or custom-design your own drone that does everything you tell it to do.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:47PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:47PM (#797802) Journal

            WTF is a "civilized country"? And, how would you know if you saw one?

            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:00PM (2 children)

              by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:00PM (#797810) Journal

              The civilians have their mouths sewn shut and then are cemented into the ground with just the head exposed.

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:06PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:06PM (#797816) Journal

                Sounds horrible. How does a sailor get laid?

                • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:34PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:34PM (#797871)

                  No laid. Only head.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @05:35PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @05:35PM (#797856)

            I suppose civilised countries will make custom drone building illegal, and mandate phone app only control, so they can query the drone for its controller and from thence to the registered owner of the phone, so that they can put him in PMITA prison.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:20PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:20PM (#797896) Journal

          If the point is to burn a hole in a drone to cause a malfunction, then why not use a "laser" in the infrared range, instead of op-tickle?

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:49PM (5 children)

        by mhajicek (51) on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:49PM (#797805)

        The only way to stop a bad guy with a drone is a good guy with a drone.

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:01PM (3 children)

          by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:01PM (#797811) Journal

          but was that 6 drones or only 5? Do you feel lucky?

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 3, Funny) by mhajicek on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:45PM (2 children)

            by mhajicek (51) on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:45PM (#797917)

            You can have my drone when you...

            Oh shoot, it's stuck in a tree.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:08PM (1 child)

              by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:08PM (#798000) Journal

              Modern day Charlie Brown, lol.

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
              • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:10PM

                by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:10PM (#798001) Journal

                Should that be Charlton Heston Brown?

                --
                --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:18PM

          by bob_super (1357) on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:18PM (#798006)

          After watching the documentary, I thought someone important had to sacrifice themselves and stay on the drone to guide it to collide with the other drone.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:14PM (3 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:14PM (#797781) Homepage Journal

      From the missing-the-bloody-obvious dept. Charge rednecks for tags and let them shoot the drones down. Makes money instead of costing money.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:21PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:21PM (#797788) Journal

        They'll be deep frying the drones, and claiming, "Tastes like chicken!"

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:08PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:08PM (#797890)

        You're assuming they can hit something other than roadway signs.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:32PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:32PM (#797794)

    Nets definitely seem the right approach to me. What do you think?

    If Amazon isn't taking nets into account when planning for "drone loss prevention", they need to start. I've half seriously thought about how to disable a delivery drone that enters my home's air space and it really won't be that hard. A net is one of the more simple approaches one can think of. Now, actually doing it another thing. I'm sure others won't have the conscience I do...

  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:58PM (2 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @03:58PM (#797808) Journal

    I hear the net is bad: will this net have a VPN or will it be banned ? Will they throttle the speed of this net? Will crackers(sorry) HACKERS be able to take over this net?

    The net is bad.
    Wait til N. Korea gets onto this net and infects it with....Netitus or whatever they do.

    Just you wait.

              Man, this probably would have been better written by realDonaldTrump. :(

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday February 07 2019, @09:48PM (1 child)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Thursday February 07 2019, @09:48PM (#797985)

      Whatever it is, it's a good robot taking out a bad robot with a Net. But they're flying, so it'll happen in the Sky. Put all of those things together, and I don't see any part of that being a problem, or potentially relating to any sort of cautionary tale.

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday February 07 2019, @09:55PM

        by Gaaark (41) on Thursday February 07 2019, @09:55PM (#797988) Journal

        O...M......G...!

        You are SOOOO right!

        O..M..Fecking G.

        RUN!

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by theluggage on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:50PM (1 child)

    by theluggage (1797) on Thursday February 07 2019, @04:50PM (#797841)

    Nets definitely seem the right approach to me. What do you think?

    Hmm... Drone-on-drone dogfights vs. the previous "too cool to fail" solution of trained drone-killing eagles... So hard to choose. Oh wait, were you asking whether it would actually work?

    "Can you beat the defence drones" sounds to me like a challenge to the sort of attention-seeking idiots who get their kicks from buzzing airports, and the "good guys" are always going to be at a disadvantage against the ones who don't give a fuck if they dodge across the main flight path.

    Boring solutions like not running airports at 110% capacity (so delaying a flight for 30 minutes to deal with a drone doesn't cause a massive cascade failure), having good contingency plans rather than running around like headless chickens, or making sure that an airliner can take a drone hit without falling out of the sky (since you're never going to catch them all) spring to mind, but they're expensive and don't make such good headlines.

    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:28PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:28PM (#798014)

      Drone-on-drone dogfights (...) "Can you beat the defence drones" sounds to me like a challenge to the sort of attention-seeking idiots who get their kicks from buzzing airports.

      *Booming announcer voice* Welcome to BattleBots 3D !!!!!

  • (Score: 2) by Alfred on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:10PM (5 children)

    by Alfred (4006) on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:10PM (#797863) Journal
    Spolier: pretty much nothing works well against drones for a practical price

    Specifically about nets: nets coul be defeated with come chicken wire and zip ties added to the defending drone because the nets primary attack is to get tangled in the propellers. If the defending drone can carry the weight of the net without getting tangles then all you did was slow it down. The best chance of the net defense is the style that deploys via shotgun slug IF one of the slugs hits the drone.

    The really cool defense method is trained-birds/falconry. Though not feasible(legal for profit) in the states, maybe it is ok in the UK.
    • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:39PM (3 children)

      by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:39PM (#797872) Journal

      weighted net, specifically weighted offset to one side in a way that is balanced correctly on the attacking drone but when deployed causes an unbalance on the defending drone that its gyros cannot compensate for.

      Then it's a matter of who's got the heaviest drone to handle the net payload weight.

      Maybe even leave the net connected to the attacking drone for a "skyhook" style pull-away.

      --
      This sig for rent.
      • (Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:17PM (2 children)

        by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:17PM (#797893) Journal

        You are grossly overestimating the ability of "drones" to compensate for a net type failure. The net falls into/wraps around/jams the props. A good piece of kit can still fly with 1 jammed prop. If you stop several it's going to fall out of the sky.

        You can test this at home. Throw some dental floss into a hovering quad, preferably over a soft surface.

        I theorize but cannot test that this type of attack would work against helicopters too. e.g. Shooting a line launcher into the rotor disk

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday February 07 2019, @08:38PM (1 child)

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday February 07 2019, @08:38PM (#797954) Journal

          Entirely possible. Interesting stuff.

          I think the notion above was that if you can protect the prop surface by encasing it (while still allowing airflow) then the filaments of the net won't touch the props or mast. For quads and I've read that any motor failure is a "land now" event. Hexes and octos can handle a motor loss and still maneuver. Quads might land but it's all done flying except for an absolute expert and even they can get into trouble really fast, though experts can fly them on two. Equipping a drone with motors that can independently hold the craft in flight (you need at least two counter-rotating blades relatively balanced/trimmed for COG) becomes prohibitively expensive awfully quickly.... just like in large scale. Pulling it off balance, though, seems possible.

          I wonder how valve packing tape would work for such a scenario. Hyper cool would be some kind of environmentally friendly super-viscous liquid that would just seize up the shafts.

          With a real (not RC) helicopter, though, your line would have to be ductile enough to both wrap around and yet maintain integrity, plus wrap up in a way that ends up fouling the control rods (or slipping under the swash and fouling at the mast/transmission junction. Again potentially possible but not too likely - you'd need better than dental floss. RC helicopters, sure I could see that. Delivering it to target is the trick.

          The problem with all of these scenarios, though, is one that occurs with trying to stop road traffic: Doing it in a way that is safe to any potential bystanders. Kill a drone, fine. But if it lands on someone.... well I wouldn't want to be underneath a three pound weight dropped from five stories up. Nor would I want to be the officer responsible for having dropped it on that person's head.

          --
          This sig for rent.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by ElizabethGreene on Friday February 08 2019, @04:10PM

            by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 08 2019, @04:10PM (#798362) Journal

            Delivering it to target is the trick

            Agreed. The imaginary solution is a line launcher used for firing a cord between ships. Out of the box the Mossberg 590 with the line launcher kit will fire a 360 lb test Nylon line. I'm skeptical about that being strong enough and feel like some kind of nylon or braided Kevlar being a better option.

    • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Thursday February 07 2019, @08:51PM

      by Nuke (3162) on Thursday February 07 2019, @08:51PM (#797959)

      nets coul be defeated with come chicken wire and zip ties added to the defending drone because the nets primary attack is to get tangled in the propellers

      Eh? Trying to tangle props sounds like a wimpy half-hearted effort. The way to go is to use a big f-ing drone that can shoot or drag a net that catches the whole damn rogue drone and drags it out of the sky. Like this :-

      https://www.mtu.edu/news/stories/2016/january/drone-catcher-robotic-falcon-can-capture-retrieve-renegade-drones.html [mtu.edu]

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:31PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:31PM (#797870)

    Launch an RF seeking mini rocket that follows the signal to the source.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by richtopia on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:43PM

    by richtopia (3160) on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:43PM (#797875) Homepage Journal

    A friend of mine worked on this project:

    https://www.mtu.edu/news/stories/2016/january/drone-catcher-robotic-falcon-can-capture-retrieve-renegade-drones.html [mtu.edu]

    It is a drone enabled with a net to down other drones, and sounds similar to Germany's version. The hardware is very capable; I suspect writing the drone chasing software is more difficult.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:58PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @06:58PM (#797882)

    Have mini-SAM around the airport to shoot down drones.
    Have signal trackers around for triangulation, and a few mini missile silo to target the source.

    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:22PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Thursday February 07 2019, @10:22PM (#798011)

      Just make sure the Chinese embassy is not within range of any missile that misses its target.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:59PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 07 2019, @07:59PM (#797924)

    i don't accept that the airports and the feds are the good guys. costing these airports money? how will i ever get to sleep tonight?

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