Submitted via IRC for Bytram
'It will take off like a wildfire': The unique dangers of the Washington state measles outbreak
[...] "You know what keeps me up at night?" said Clark County Public Health Director Alan Melnick. "Measles is exquisitely contagious. If you have an under-vaccinated population, and you introduce a measles case into that population, it will take off like a wildfire."
[...] Anti-vaccination activists, for their part, contend that state officials are twisting facts to stoke public fear.
"It shouldn't be called an outbreak," Seattle-area mother Bernadette Pajer, a co-founder of the state's main anti-vaccine group, Informed Choice Washington, said of the measles cases, arguing that the illness has spread only within a small, self-contained group. "I would refer to it as an in-break, within a community."
[...] Clements eventually changed her mind, deciding to give her kids the shots after a doctor at a vaccine workshop answered her questions for more than two hours, at one point drawing diagrams on a whiteboard to explain cell interaction. He was thoughtful, factual and also "still very warm," she said.
[...] In Washington, state lawmakers supporting tougher vaccine requirements are mounting their second effort in the past three years to make it harder for parents to opt out of vaccinations.
(Score: -1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Friday February 08 2019, @06:00PM (7 children)
They say 55 people got sick. Big problem. Used to be hundreds and hundreds of thousands of folks getting sick, every measles season. And in those days it was just a part of growing up. More and more, folks are leading very sheltered lives!!
By the way, I got my shots. For the Hepatitis A & B. So I can have more fun in bed -- and in many places. Ladies?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday February 08 2019, @07:25PM (2 children)
If something will take off like wildfire, aren't you supposed to be tweeting about how popular it is? And great for America?
Taxes are especially popular this time of year -- you can tell by the number of people paying them. Isn't that the definition of popular?
And death is very popular, all year around.
And Windows is "popular" because of the number of people using it compared to Linux desktops.
People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
(Score: 3, Funny) by bob_super on Friday February 08 2019, @08:02PM (1 child)
If measles is like wildfire, does that mean anti-vaccine people can stop the epidemic by raking their bodies ?
Can we help them ?
(Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Friday February 08 2019, @08:32PM
You call it an epidemic. They don't call it an epidemic. If you look at Article. 1 person in Seattle and 3 people in Portland. And when they added up all of Oregon & Washington -- 55 people. Not a lot. Millions of people in Seattle. Millions in Portland. And in those big cities -- 4 folks came down with measles. It's a nothing.
You want to see Wildfire? You don't want to see that one, believe me. I've seen what it can do. I visited Pleasure, California. What a name. It was no pleasure. They used to have houses, now it's just the floor. And the Chimney. People so badly hurt, people dieing.
I told them, look at Finland. They spend a lot of time on raking and cleaning and doing things and they don't have any problem. And when they do, it's a very small problem.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by PinkyGigglebrain on Friday February 08 2019, @09:51PM (1 child)
Did you hear about the "Camp Fire" [wikipedia.org] in California, the worst in the states history and worst in the USA since 1918? It started from a single spark and it grew from there into a conflagration that reduced a city of 26,000 people to smoking debris.
55 measles cases may not sound like many but if you ignore it there will be more. It would only take a mutation in a single active case to make it worse, that is why they have to treat even a small outbreak of a contagious pathogen as a potential "wildfire", not just because of how dangerous it is, but how dangerous it could be.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 0, Troll) by HiThere on Friday February 08 2019, @11:16PM
Yes, but MOST people live through it without permanent damage. Or at least not much.
I understand his concern, and I do feel that unvaccinated children should not be allowed in public or private schools, but it's not really comparable to a wildfire, which kills and destroys wholesale.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @01:57PM (1 child)
So was Polio, Whooping Cough, Tetanus and Small Pox.
(Score: 1, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:29PM
Those, for somebody that gets them, are a lot more serious than the measles. A lot more. The measles, if you have it, isn't a big deal. And that's what I was telling you. Smallpox, that one was a little before my time. And by the way, if you want to go back like that, we had a lot of horrible diseases going around New York City at certain times. Cholera and yellow fever being some of the biggest. You don't hear about those anymore. Not because of vaccine. Because the people coming into our Country were put into a VERY STRICT QUARANTINE. The immigrants were bringing many diseases -- just like today. But, they came in LEGALLY. So we put them through the Quarantine. And the sick ones, we waited for them to get better or die. Which, with Smallpox, so many did (RIP!). When somebody totally bypasses our Ports of Entry, when they just sneak across our Border, very illegally, we can't do Quarantine. Need to control Border!!
And another thing -- SANITATION. Polio, the biggest way to get it is by eating poop. And you're thinking, "oh, who would do that?" I'll tell you, when you live in a filthy place it happens. Even when you don't want it. When America was Great, we put in great Infrastructure -- and Polio began, very quickly, to go away. Before Vaccine. Yellow Fever, we found it was passed by a Mosquito. We went after the Mosquito and there was much less Yellow Fever. Before Vaccine.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 08 2019, @06:02PM (34 children)
If the vaccinations work, and if you've vaccinated all the kids you care about, then the "outbreak" doesn't really concern you.
If the "outbreak" kills a bunch of kids, they aren't your kids. And, if all of that happens, it will only strengthen your position, and convince other anti-vaxxers to get their kids vaccinated.
So, just put all the authoritarianism aside, and let nature take it's course.
And, one more thing, Melnick. Get you some Ambien, or Lunesta. You really don't need to lose sleep over this problem.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @06:16PM (2 children)
They suspect that the vaccines have waned or never took in a large percentage of people. If there is ever a real outbreak the false immunity they created is going to lead to the biggest outbreak ever. We are in what is called the honeymoon period and it is what happens when large-scale vaccination programs fail to eradicate:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12176860 [nih.gov] [nih.gov]
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=8267&cid=205163#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:20PM (1 child)
So you should go get your vaccine because... see, it turns out, that for many (most?) people the vaccines didn't actually... um, work.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:41PM
The original idea behind vaccinations was to eradicate the virus. This morphed into the current policy of needing to pay for vaccines into the indefinite future once the predictions of measles eradication in 1967 failed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6939399 [nih.gov]
By 1968 they already realized what they had done:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1228954/ [nih.gov] [nih.gov]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by realDonaldTrump on Friday February 08 2019, @06:20PM (1 child)
They're worried about the kids that didn't get the shots. But, also the ones that did. Because the shots aren't 100%. They don't always work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:21PM
I think you forgot to log out of your troll account.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mrpg on Friday February 08 2019, @06:21PM
When you have a child,
you have the son of the house and the whole street,
you have the one who rides in the carriage of the beggar woman
and the one in the car that pushes the English governess
When you have a child, you have so many children
that the street is full
and the square and the bridge
and the market and the church
and it's our any child when it crosses the street
and the car runs over him
and when he looks out on the balcony
and when he approaches the pool.
Andrés Eloy Blanco
Los hijos infinitos
https://www.poeticous.com/andres-eloy-blanco/los-hijos-infinitos [poeticous.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by bob_super on Friday February 08 2019, @06:25PM (20 children)
STOP REPEATING LIES !!!
Dangerous ones at that.
Vaccines aren't 100% effective. Not 100% of people who want them can get the vaccines, because of real allergies.
So, for the people who can't, and the people who did but it didn't take, just do your fucking part to get the population to the 90+% required for proper herd immunity that prevents catastrophic spread.
AND STOP SAYING/TYPING LIES THAT GET PEOPLE HURT, MORONS !
Because this is 2019, and this is "the greatest country in the world", so why the fuck are we discussing measles outbreaks ?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday February 08 2019, @06:27PM (7 children)
Because goddam Christian nutbag rednecks don't vaccinate their damn kids! [vox.com]
And I'm sure all that third-world filth pouring in through our Southern border isn't going to help things much, either.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday February 08 2019, @07:04PM
If you had used a Fox citation along with the Vox citation to argue the same point, THAT would have been pretty epic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:05PM (4 children)
If you are to be believed* about your ancestry then I'd say you have a solid point....
*hawhaw
(Score: 1, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday February 08 2019, @07:08PM (3 children)
I'm more Hispanic than Beto and more Native American than Elizabeth Warren, that's for goddamn sure.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:16PM
So you admit you're third world filth huh? Given any thought to running in 2020? I'm sure the Trumptards would overwhelmingly support a racist minority, then they get to say "but we elected a mexican!" while continuing to be (mostly) awful people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @09:41PM (1 child)
...and stupider than a potted plant.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Sulla on Friday February 08 2019, @11:46PM
As we can see from the Democrats love of AOC and Spartacus they aren't exactly qualifying their people on their intellect, I think EF would fit right in.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @09:39PM
That's just stupid of you.
(Score: 0, Troll) by noneof_theabove on Friday February 08 2019, @07:39PM (3 children)
HERD IMMUNITY means absolutely nothing except that when the vaccine fails 100% of those vaccinated are going to have a bad week.
The only one I have had [got sick] is mumps and I still my tonsils, so being born in 1954, I watch for any illness that jacks with my throat.
#1 WAG - wild ass guess
#2 EWAG - educated wild ass guess
Will this years vaccine for the flu work, usually results in a #1 answer.
Natural immunity is the best, second to natural remedies.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Friday February 08 2019, @07:57PM
Either you're trolling or you're an ignorant idiot, and a dangerous one at that.
May I invite you to take a one-way trip to central Africa?
(Score: 4, Informative) by SemperOSS on Friday February 08 2019, @08:19PM (1 child)
If I understand it correctly, you are saying that herd immunity is not a fact but a (possibly educated) guess?
Not so.
CDC — and similar institutions all over the world — have more than just simulations and other calculations to show the reality of the herd effect, they have actual observations supporting it. Not understanding this is just plain asinine.
I don't need a signature to draw attention to myself.
Maybe I should add a sarcasm warning now and again?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Friday February 08 2019, @11:23PM
Not understanding it is defensible. Not understanding it and having a strong opinion is... Well, someone who does that doesn't deserve to live through it.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @10:30PM (5 children)
Also, please STOP SHOUTING HALF TRUTHS!!!
Not only are the vaccines not 100% effective in those who get them, they are also not 100% harmless. Proving vaccine injury in court to collect from the fund is excessively difficult, only a very small percentage of the vaccine injured even attempt it.
Fever spike of 105F+ in the hours following a standard round of 30 month old vaccinations, combination of ibuprofen acetaminophen and ice pack therapy got it down to 103 after 2 hours in the E.R. - luckily without seizures. Lasting effects? Undoubtedly, but what's the cost of trying to prove that in court?
(Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Friday February 08 2019, @10:45PM (4 children)
The risk/reward math always falls on the "reward" side, for those highly-transmissible killers.
At the society level.
At the personal level, it really sucks when you're the one with the adverse effects.
But that makes it even more important that anyone who doesn't have a strong reaction to vaccines DO get them, to protect the ones who can't.
No non-medical exemptions.
(Score: 3, Informative) by sonamchauhan on Saturday February 09 2019, @04:45AM (2 children)
Good point.
Typically, you won't know you need a medical exemption until after the adverse reaction hits.
In the meantime, you can take sensible precautions. Wait until older. Spread out doses. Never combine vaccines. Read ingredients, and select less harmful versions. Don't immunise against low risk illnesses (e.g., the flu, if you're not going to die from having it)
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Saturday February 09 2019, @09:13AM
I don't know about America, but in most of the world, all the related risks are very low, however the risks of delaying the vaccine (and thereby increasing the time you are a potential victim of the disease) are considerably greater than the reduction in risk of the vaccine, at least in part because if you are at risk from the vaccine, you are at much higher risk from the actual disease.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @02:09PM
This is what is referred to as paranoia or border line delusional schizophrenia. In a world where you are surrounded by chemicals of all sorts, that you eat and breathe or otherwise absorb, you are worried about a mass-fucking-produced tiny vaccine that has been checked and verified for safety? You are seriously worried about "harmful ingredients" there?? But I guess you are also one of these people that doesn't buckle seat belts because they will trap you in a burning wreck and prevent your miraculous escape?
Rational fucking thinking - go get some.
Except the flu is not a vaccine that actually works well, so you picked the worse fucking example. And every disease is low-risk, until it kills you.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @08:08PM
you wouldn't be such a suck ass if you had kids or grand kids that were vaccine damaged. except that you probably do, you just don't know it b/c they were only damaged enough to drop their iq by 20 points.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:04AM
SN will really hit the big time when such an informative rebuttal as this causes the OP's outright worthless POS post to never see the light of day.
(Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:39AM
Being the "greatest country in the world" includes having the greatest measles outbreaks. Glad I live in a regular country where about the only great thing you can say about us is that we're not Americans.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday February 08 2019, @07:41PM (3 children)
So specifically with this vaccine you can't get it until you are a year old. So there is going to be a large group of people who could not get the vaccine if they wanted to who could run into problems.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by SunTzuWarmaster on Friday February 08 2019, @08:14PM (2 children)
Luckily we keep all of the 1 year olds away from the un-vaccinated 2 year olds.
/sarcasm - needed because we are talking about life/death here.
Freaking vaccinate.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Sulla on Friday February 08 2019, @10:12PM (1 child)
When my kids were born the doctors seemed very cautious about asking whether we planned to vaccinate. When we told them that we were fine with any vaccinations that they had the doc said she was greatful to not be yelled at. I live on the west cost though so I guess freaking out at the doctors is the norm here.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday February 08 2019, @10:53PM
When we went in to see the team of doctors about our sons diagnosis of autism (he was around 3-4 years old) it was like walking in to a funeral:
we had already guessed he was autistic (when you look down on him and he looks to the side, yeah...pretty good diagnostic guess)... i guess the doctors are so used to parents crying, wailing and gnashing their teeth (possible rending of clothes?) that it was LIKE pulling teeth to get them to say the diagnosis. We finally just said "He's autistic, right!".
there was this quiet let out of breath from the team and then they got down to business.
I guess everybody hates being yelled at and confirming parents worst fears, lol.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by sjames on Friday February 08 2019, @09:58PM (2 children)
If vaccination was 100% effective, could be given safely and effectively at birth, and no medical condition whatsoever would prevent effective vaccination, you would be right. But none of those are true.
With sufficient exposure, vaccinated kids can get measles. The first dose at 1 year old is 93% effective, the second dose at 4 to 6 years brings it up to 97%. That leaves babies and children with various immune deficiencies unprotected.
Not that long ago, when vaccination rates were higher, there were no outbreaks of Measles. Isolated cases were considered remarkable.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @06:47PM
Babies are protected by maternal antibodies until they are about 1 year old (less if the mother was vaccinated instead of had measles).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @06:59PM
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21133659 [nih.gov]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @06:24PM (17 children)
If you want to convince people:
1. Don't try to hide the risks. You'll be caught, and then you won't be trusted.
2. Don't push all vaccines equally. Polio is gone from all but 3 countries, and STDs are avoidable. Pushing all vaccines equally destroys your credibility.
3. Don't treat all environments the same. A kid in a huge urban preschool has a different risk profile than a rural stay-at-home kid. Again, trust matters.
4. Don't be stingy about injury payouts. This includes having an excessively narrow window of time in which harm is considered to be vaccine-caused. The narrow window looks suspicious. It looks like an attempt to deny that vaccine injuries are in fact vaccine injuries... because it is. Cut that shit out.
5. Don't lump multiple vaccines together. There are people who take a hard line on vaccines made via cell cultures that originate from aborted children. If you put 3 vaccines in one shot, and just one of them is made that way, then you just expanded a religious objection from 1 vaccine to 3 vaccines. Quit being stubborn on this. It looks really bad.
6. Speaking of that, find another damn cell culture. This is not hard.
7. Don't insist so hard on early vaccination. It's far easier to correctly diagnose problems in a kid who can describe symptoms. If you inject babies, you are just asking to be blamed for ANY problem that occurs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @06:34PM
Brilliant. Thank you, Sir.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:23PM (6 children)
While your points are all good explanations of where the anti-vaxxers might be coming from you are asking medical professionals to change their advice to be more palatable to the ignorant. That is unethical for them to do, and wrong to ask of them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:56PM (2 children)
If medical advice does harm for good reason, is that ethical?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @10:03PM
Citations please
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @04:23PM
It's not the advice that's the problem, it's the fact that there are willfully ignorant people engaged in paranoid rants about the alleged issues with vaccinations. Vaccines aren't perfect, but for most people the issues are minimal or non-existent.
Allowing the ignorant to make money spreading the lies isn't helping anybody and can hurt those who couldn't get the vaccinations.
This isn't like the flu vaccination that can lead to what looks identical to the flu. Lying about that is unethical, if you wind up sick with flu-like symptoms for a week, it's foolish to try and convince the sufferer that they didn't get the flu. I won't ever get another flu shot unless they come up with a permanent shot as it's not worth the reaction.
(Score: 2) by lentilla on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:38AM
It's no good being correct if people won't listen to you.
Unfortunate as it may be, oftentimes the "best" solution has to be negotiated downwards to second or third best to appease the fools, and from there it is merely a matter of sales and marketing. I don't believe the grandparent is asking medical professionals to change their advice - they are suggesting a change of approach. If we developed vaccines with a hint of organic free-trade-sourced patchouli and that resulted in an uptake of vaccinations - well, so be it.
If you can't reason with fools... manipulate them.
(Score: 2) by sonamchauhan on Saturday February 09 2019, @04:48AM
No one is asking for advice to change. Just effective alternatives to be presented.
This is commonsense. We do this everyday at work for our bosses. Why is this hard?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @08:11PM
stfu bitch.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:09PM (5 children)
Wait, what? Is that a real thing?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:41PM (4 children)
These cell cultures go back decades. Some baby was aborted long ago, and cells from that baby live on to this day. There are whole factories full of these cells to produce the vaccines.
The Pope said that the vaccine is the lesser evil, so Catholics can officially use these vaccines. (would be different if continued abortions were required) His statement seemed pretty reluctant though, and he allowed for the possibility of taking a different stance on the matter. Some people want to be more strict, feeling that it is improper to indirectly profit from killing a child.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday February 08 2019, @10:14PM (2 children)
Can you provide some citations on this please? Sounds like an interesting read.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday February 08 2019, @10:35PM (1 child)
Do Vaccines Contain Aborted Fetal Tissue? [verywellhealth.com]
(To be honest, I was trying to disprove the AC but was forced to learn something, instead)
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday February 08 2019, @11:15PM
When I read the comment I presumed they were just used as the source for stem cells or something. Interesting to read about following the recent thread we had about using research that was only found through unethical means. I wonder what cells in particular were used from the original source. If it were stem cells can they be derived from the umbilical court as well?
Some interesting pages I came across
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortalised_cell_line [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_culture [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contaminated_cell_lines [wikipedia.org]
The immortalized cell lines are interesting. Get some of your cancer used in research and a part of you gets to live indefinitely.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday February 08 2019, @11:00PM
WAIT A SECOND....HOLD ON...
People STILL listen to the Pope?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... do they still listen to the Howdy Doody show, too?
Give. me. a. break.
"No..no, seriously...allowing a priest to molest your child is GOOD for them: vaccinates them against the DEVIL!"
First Jive Dude: Shiiiiit, maaaaan. That honky muf' be messin' mah little boy... got to be runnin' cold upside down his head, you know?
Second Jive Dude: Hey home', I can dig it. Know ain't gonna lay no mo' big rap up on you, man!
First Jive Dude: I say hey, sky... subba say I wan' see...
Second Jive Dude: Uh-huh.
First Jive Dude: ...pray to J I did the same-ol', same-ol'!
Second Jive Dude: Hey... knock a self a pro, Slick! That gray matter backlot perform us DOWN, I take TCB-in', man!
First Jive Dude: Hey, you know what they say: see a broad to get dat booty yak 'em...
First Jive Dude, Second Jive Dude: ...leg 'er down a smack 'em yak 'em!
First Jive Dude: COL' got to be! Y'know? Shiiiiit.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1) by doke on Friday February 08 2019, @10:10PM
I agree that most of the advice is too simplistic, and there are important details being left out. However, a full writeup of all of that information will get ignored by most of the target audience as "too long, didn't read". So they have to start with a massively simplified version, and make more details available to people who actually care enough to ask.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @08:13PM
they are damaging babies on purpose. they will never change this plan voluntarily.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11 2019, @10:27PM
Injury claims are paid out without proof now - you want to widen the window?
It's like buying auto insurance, then getting in an accident, and blaming the insurance.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @06:27PM (1 child)
Anti-vaxxers are not responsible for the typhus outbreak in LA [nbcnews.com] or the hepatitis pandemic. It's moron Vs moron - who wins, who cares?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @06:37PM
They say abortion is the vaccine against Leftism. But it must be done in around 60th trimester.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by krishnoid on Friday February 08 2019, @07:09PM (1 child)
First the anti-vaxxers, then the climate change problems. Damn Californians.
I wonder if he recorded it. Maybe they should record those for when the explanations work -- seems like it would make for a good story, and good instruction for how other doctors can improve their bedside manner when trying to make the case.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Friday February 08 2019, @11:31PM
It was reported (in the summary to take more than two hours. Ask your insurance company how much time they'll pay for. He *must* have been doing it pro bono.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:14PM (20 children)
Now I'm wondering if I need a booster shot. It turns out you don't need one if you're an adult who got the shots when you were a kid. My parents weren't nuts, so I'm pretty sure my shots were up to date. What if they just forgot though? What if I got that random ineffective shot? I'm pretty sure my local district didn't allow kids without shots, right? How would I know? I don't even know where my immunization records are. In the baby book, I think, in a cardboard box, under a pile full of cardboard boxes but I know the baby books aren't complete. I just know that I saw something about shots in there when I looked in it a few times. I can just picture my Mom not having time for it after a while, because when you've got a toddler and an older child going to school you tend to lose track of your scrap-booking. I'm probably more capable than most of tracking this info down too. I bet a lot of you have no idea where the baby book is, or if your Mom even kept one.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @07:28PM (18 children)
It looks like the vaccine is 95% "effective" (as judged by an antibody test, not actual exposure) for a few years, then of those 95% of people only 91% still have positive antibody tests 30 years later: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/Supplement_1/S123/821041 [oup.com]
So if you were vaccinated there is ~.91*.95 = 86% chance you will still have a positive antibody test. Since about 90% of people in the US are vaccinated or had measles that means about a quarter of the adult population is not immune (.86*.9 ~ .77).
This is all assuming a lot about the antibodies being effective (measles could mutate, etc).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:22PM (16 children)
So the real thank-you is that I'm now playing worse than Russian roulette odds of getting adult measles if we have an outbreak? How bad is measles for adults?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:44PM (3 children)
No idea, I just know people used to spread it around on purpose when one kid would get it because it wasn't considered a big deal for children. Same as chicken pox until recently.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b7e0/c83a2232536a507ef061563000b59d97db66.pdf [semanticscholar.org]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4007870/ [nih.gov] [nih.gov]
Found this about adults, who knows if it is typical though:
https://www.ejinme.com/article/S0953-6205(13)00708-5/fulltext [ejinme.com]
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Saturday February 09 2019, @12:04AM (2 children)
I have always been interested in the idea of our species changing the world around us in ways that would benefit us. While it is worth keeping cultures of viruses and bacteria that cause us issues, I think it is also very worth it to eradicate them in our environment. To some extent we would have issues with new ones evolving, but why then not trace those back to their hosts and eradicate them there? Would bats be worse off if we eradicated the diseases the effect them? Chickens? I don't know, but I think it would be worth finding out.
Something else that falls into the same category is eradication of pest species
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochliomyia_hominivorax [wikipedia.org]
Is an example of this where we eradicated the Screw Worm north of the Mexico border and in some countries in South/Central America. Is it playing god? Yeah. But is it worth it? Very.
A concept I like that pops up in SF is populating new virgin planets but doing so without any of the baggage we bring with us from earth. If you populate a planet with the settlers not having any of the viral holdovers from Earth, will they be able to evolve on their own with enough speed that they could not be eradicated before they spread?
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by SpockLogic on Saturday February 09 2019, @02:50PM (1 child)
No so fast, there was a recent outbreak in the Florida Keys. Mother Nature has a habit of making a comeback.
Not that the nasty little flesh eating fuckers don't need eradicating, they do*.
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/animalhealth/nvap/vet_acred_alert [usda.gov]
*I ain’t got nothing against double negatives.
Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:12PM
I hate florida so god damned much
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @08:48PM (10 children)
Also, this video shows how scary measles used to be (getting measles was treated as a joke on tv): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7zwNZOg8mE [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 08 2019, @09:08PM
"Measles", said the doctor.
"Mumps", said the nurse.
"Nothing", said the lady with the alligator purse.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Friday February 08 2019, @11:50PM (8 children)
It is important to keep this in perspective. The worst effects of Measles aren't that common. At the same time, they aren't non-existent and kids that didn't get the measles vaccine also didn't get mumps or rubella vaccine. While most people who get those are just fine as well, when complications do happen, it can be bad.
Complications from the vaccine are FAR less common.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @09:24AM (7 children)
It seems to be around 1 in 10k people for both. Actually much higher (6 in 10k) for brain injury after the vaccine...
I don't want to bother with digging up my source at the moment but will check back tomorrow with it if you respond with interest.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday February 10 2019, @04:49AM (6 children)
I would like to see some real figures, particularly for brain injuries since my recollection is that it is far less common.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10 2019, @06:56PM (5 children)
Sources:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12415036 [nih.gov]
Ignoring autism:
Then, percent of cases of serious measles just before vaccination was introduced in western countries:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20789272 [nih.gov]
I wouldnt take these more seriously than as order of magnitude estimates though...
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday February 11 2019, @01:08AM (4 children)
I don't think those figures mean what you think they do. In the first study, those numbers are for all causes. Only 9 cases of encephalitis and 10 of aseptic meningitis (all causes) occurred within 3 months of the vaccination. No data is provided on how many of those resulted in permanent disability (if any). They concluded that there was no clustering of those, autism, or irritable bowel around measles vaccination. From what we know from other studies, there is some clustering of encephalitis at least, but apparently a sample size of half a million isn't large enough to see it.
The figures from the second article were just the deaths.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11 2019, @03:50AM (1 child)
Nope in one sense. They choose to study what they want the results to mean. It doesn't take more than trusting what they say to see that.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday February 11 2019, @08:43AM
I'm not really sure what you're saying there...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11 2019, @12:58PM (1 child)
Cases of pneumonia after measles is also "all causes", there is no magic way to attribute it specifically to the measles infection just like there is no way to attribute a case of brain injury to a vaccine.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday February 11 2019, @09:47PM
You can never be absolutely certain, but it is reasonable to do what the first study did and apply a 3 month window compared to 3 month windows where the patient did not have measles (or the vaccine).
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday February 09 2019, @04:54AM
Bad. One should be ready for pneumonia as a side effect.
If you are worried, you should get a refreshment shot.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday February 08 2019, @11:33PM
Yes, but that was 30 years later. What about 60 years later? I'm not sure you can count on the drop off being linear.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Friday February 08 2019, @10:11PM
If you are unsure, MMR can be given to adults.
I actually remember getting my second MMR and my polio vaccine.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Friday February 08 2019, @09:01PM
It's important that I get my medicaid fixed Real Soon Now, as just a day or two ago, Mom clued me in to that I only had _one_ measles vaccination rather than the required _two_.
However all the docs and pharmacies or freely offering This Time For Sure Shots.
One's doc can order a "measles vaccine titer", which is a measure of the blood concentration of measles antibodies. But I won't go for the titer, rather I'll go straight for the shot. And why?
Because Mom isn't real sure that I _really_ had that one.
I am - Just For Now, mostly - safe, as I've gone nowhere near any of the reported places where the infected have been known to go. While one Profoundly-Insightful Sports Fan attended a Trailblazer's game with a case of The Washington Plague, that would only have been a problem if I'd been riding the light rail - the TriMet MAX Yellow Line - to or from work when the game let out. That happens all the time, but not on _that_ particular night.
Vancouver is the seat of Clark County. To the best of my knowledge, all the Clark County cases have been in the more-rural communities like Ridgefield and Battleground, well _away_ from where I live in Central Vancouver.
HOWEVER!
I only get around on public transit, as I've had seizures since May of 2010 - the first that I _know_ of being while driving my car! - then _diagnosed_ in 2013. :-0
Ridgefield and Battleground's grown-ups mostly work in Portland or nearby Beaverton and Hillsboro - a huge Intel facility you can - I Am Absolutely Serious - see with your naked eye from the fucking Moon - and many Ridgefield and Battleground residents drive in to one of The Couve's Park-N-Rides then take the very same buses and trains that _I_ do.
Surely I Am Doomed.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @03:02AM
The more you try to tell me it's mandatory, the more I'm going to resist you. Why? Go fuck yourself, that's why. Let me make my own "dumb decisions" and we'll see how it goes.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 09 2019, @05:53AM (4 children)
I started a job in healthcare in December and found out that the first M and the R of my childhood MMR routines had worn off somehow; I was positive for mumps antibodies but not for measles or rubella. This shouldn't surprise anyone; most people are not likely to encounter any of these once childhood is over thanks to widespread vaccination, and I'm in my early 30s now. If my immune system "forgot" a few things this shouldn't be a huge revelation.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @09:26AM (3 children)
I am also not surprised that "global warming" is causing a new ice age, etc.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 09 2019, @12:44PM (2 children)
It is? Some places are getting localized cooling effects but the entire planet is warming. No need for scare quotes; the planet's net energy budget *is* going up, it's just not evenly distributed because Earth isn't a barren, featureless, uniform ball of rock with no atmosphere.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 09 2019, @04:15PM (1 child)
The earth isn't a "ball" at all. It is a flat planar disc that is slightly concave towards the sun. Just concave enough so that solar insolation is exactly the same at every point. There is a reason that "flat-earthers" is a grass roots phenomenon spreading around the globe.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 09 2019, @11:44PM
Now THAT is how you troll! I love the last sentence especially :) Modded up because I want people to see this.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...