Lufthansa sues passenger who skipped his flight
A method commonly used by airline passengers to get cheaper fares is at the center of a court row between a German airline and one of its customers.
Lufthansa has taken a passenger, who didn't show up for the last leg of his ticketed journey, to court in an apparent bid to clamp down on "hidden city" ticketing. The practice involves passengers leaving their journey at a layover point, instead of making a final connection.
For instance, someone flying from New York to San Francisco could book a cheaper trip from New York to Lake Tahoe with a layover in San Francisco and get off there, without bothering to take the last leg of the flight.
The unnamed passenger skipped a flight from Frankfurt to Oslo and flew using a separate Lufthansa reservation from Frankfurt to Berlin instead. Lufthansa is calling this a violation of their terms and conditions and has sued the passenger for €2,112 ($2,386).
This method does not work if you have checked bags, and other people have reported retaliation from airlines for the practice.
Also at Fortune and Popular Mechanics.
See also: Airlines hate 'hidden city ticketing,' but it's still one of the best ways to save a ton on your flights — if you know how to do it
Travel Site CEO's Reddit AMA Backfires When Redditors Turn on Him
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:21AM (12 children)
This seems a case that the airlines really need to loose.
Using less services than you paid for should not be in any way be wrong or less than moral.
In fact, setting up the situation that attempts to make this wrong seems on the wrong side of moral.
The airline can choose to not sell a ticket if they see an open flight.
(Two reservations which together require some of the legs to go unused?)
But if the person manages to buy then the tickets should be fine however they are used.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:30AM (8 children)
Even if you don't have luggage, you will waste the airline's time if you have a boarding pass.
If the people doing that bothered to stop at the counter to tell the airline they're giving up on the flight, then they shouldn't be penalized for gaming the system. The airline saves a few buck by having that empty seat which was paid for.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:04AM (5 children)
How so? If I am not at the gate when they call for final boarding for my flight, they close the doors and roll the plane out for take off; they don't bother waiting for me to show up for boarding. No one is delayed if I am a no-show. This actually happens quite a fair bit when people miss their flight due to a delay in a connecting flight. In fact, it happens every day at airports throughout the world!
(Score: 2) by Bill Dimm on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:50AM
I would imagine that if the flight is overbooked (perhaps due to people getting bumped to a different flight because they missed their connecting flight), they could get people on the plane faster if they knew earlier that the seat was available.
Presumably they know in advance whether or not your connecting flight will arrive in time.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:05AM (3 children)
To briefly play devil's advocate... most of the time, the airlines know who is on what plane and who is connecting to what flight. So if your previous flight is late and therefore you will miss the next segment, the airline will usually know in advance that you are not making that connection and won't bother waiting for you.
However if your first flight is on time they probably assume you are still in the airport. My anecdotal experience is that "final boarding call" means anything but that. If you are actually in the airport (which the airlines know because your pass was scanned at the checkpoint, or you were on a plane that arrived earlier, or whatever), then the "final boarding call" is usually followed by "Mr. Smith, please come to gate 23", which is followed by "Mr. Smith, your plane is about to leave at gate 23", which is followed by "Mr. Smith, would you like to go to London today? Please come to gate 23 immediately..."
Anyway, this whole problem is entirely self-inflicted by the airlines. The only reason it happens is because those airlines chose to sell dinner and dessert for less than the price of the same dinner by itself. So it should be no surprise that people who just want dinner will take the dessert as well and toss it in the bin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:36PM (1 child)
Interesting theory that the airline is so concerned about their passengers that not getting to the gate will somehow be a problem for the airline.
They don't seem to worry too much over it for slightly late passengers.
What logic says not showing up is any problem except for the revenue hit?
In selling the extra ticket, they were paid to deal with this.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:04PM
Airlines don't give a shit if you're slightly late to the checkin counter. But if you have an assigned seat and are believed to be in the airport, it seems that they do. Especially if your bag is in the hold, since if you check a bag and then fail to show up at the gate someone needs to go in, find your bag, and remove it from the plane.
It's possible they won't care about you if you don't have any luggage.
(Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @04:35PM
Absolutely. I have no sympathy for them because of this, I'm sure few do.
> So it should be no surprise that people who just want dinner will take the dessert as well and toss it in the bin.
You were so close with that analogy, but just missed the mark. The customer gets the dessert, and just leaves with it untouched, so that the staff don't know whether they can clear it away or not.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:48AM
As if they hold flights for no-shows when there is no word on why they are late.
Almost EVERY flight has no shows, that's why they overbook.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by shrewdsheep on Thursday February 14 2019, @09:58AM
I confess of the practice. In my defense, at the first time, I tried to contact the airline beforehand by email with zero response. Since then I did not bother any more.
Pro tip: You can skip, even if you have checked luggage. Just make sure that you have to go through customs where you want to skip. There is something like pre-flight clearing in some places like Dublin which means when traveling to the US you go through immigration/customs before you board and walk off like for a domestic flight at the destination. So check carefully first.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:38AM
FTFY.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by RandomFactor on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:39AM (1 child)
Agreed. Particularly as the already paid seat is likely to be filled by a paying walk-on.
Essentially they get to double dip....and THEN they sue the first guy as well.
Maybe they are trying to move the cable companies up a few notches?
The customer would be perfectly happy to buy the shorter/direct ticket if the airline weren't playing games with fares.
Modern data driven airlines are abysmal.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:39AM
"Zis ist Lufthansa!! Ve ask ze questions!!!"
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:43AM (8 children)
My pet peeve.
In this age of computized ticketing there is no excuse for it. So when the airline complains about something like this, time to bring out the tiny violin.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:56AM (6 children)
> In this age of computized ticketing there is no excuse for it.
That depends on when you're asking for a refund.
If people can cancel without harm, they do it a lot. As late as possible.
The airline isn't sure to fill those seats, since other people were already told to go buy elsewhere, because the plane is full (or the price went up for the last seats).
Net loss for the airline.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:23AM (2 children)
The people doing this aren't asking for a refund at all.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:47AM (1 child)
OP has deviated a bit, and is griping about ... well, check the title.
I'm just answering that topic
(Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:59AM
That makes sense. I was reading your reply as an answer to the second part of OP while you were replying to the first part.
I can see why a ticket would be non-refundable, but I would add only if you're allowed to sell it to someone else.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Snotnose on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:24AM
He didn't cancel without harm. He paid for a ticket he didn't use. Not like he's asking for a refund for the flight he didn't take.
Fuck the airlines, it's their own greedy pricing algorithms that make this a thing. It's stupid from all sides, but don't blame me when I realize it's cheaper to book an A -> B-> C flight for cheaper than the A -> B that I want, so I just get off at B and call it a day.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:06AM
"If people can cancel without harm, they do it a lot. As late as possible."
It's a no cost "option" of course you should use it. Cancellation fees are simply options for services that have a cost
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @06:12AM
shilling hard everyday, eh, "bob_super"?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:07AM
If we're lucky, this is some reverse psychology move by Lufthansa to establish legal precedent that it's alright to buy and use hidden city discount fares.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Thursday February 14 2019, @12:56AM (10 children)
I can't understand why this is bad for the airlines. They:
Let's also not forget the fact that this only happens because it's cheaper to fly a 2-leg journey than it is to fly just one leg of that journey. That is the real insanity. How can that possibly make economic sense? If the airlines don't like this practice then they should adjust their fares so that one leg is cheaper than two.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:13AM (6 children)
The main negative is IF their system isn't designed YET, in 2019, to quickly check whether a missing checked-in passenger has luggage loaded on the plane. Someone has to check, then potentially address a waiting list, which takes time.
A fully boarded plane can get pushed off the gate, and potentially take off, early. Waiting for a passenger until the last call and the last minute is negating any effort made to board early. Those minutes are what Low-Cost airlines rely on to keep costs down (LH isn't low-cost, but any time savings are money). Crews can also ease into flight mode with the extra time, potentially enhancing safety.
I don't think the airline should win, but I think people should have the courtesy to invest a minute or five to tell the company that they won't take a connection they are checked-in for. Waste will show up on everyone's ticket prices eventually.
(Score: 2) by RandomFactor on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:18AM (2 children)
Except doing them the courtesy can get you noticed.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:50AM (1 child)
Because missing the flight you're checked in for doesn't ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0 [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by RandomFactor on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:14AM
So your position is that being one of the blurred masses that say nothing every day about missing a flight is more noticeable than being one of the comparatively small group that say "Hi, I need to cancel the second leg of the flight because -bogus reason-. No i don't need a later flight. No I don't need help with flight arrangements home. Thanks, I'm good."
Bold take.
Don't misunderstand more, I'm all for courtesy far beyond what is common. Still, If you don't want to be noticed, staying with the herd is often the higher percentage approach.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:15AM
I think it was LH, might have been KLM, anyway: 1995-ish London to Amsterdam hop, by some fluke of my routing first class cost the same as coach, so I was in first. We were served a nice lunch while the attendants tossed bags of nuts at the passengers in coach - everybody knows that. What I didn't know until that flight was that we had been flying a level holding pattern _until_ the gentleman in 2A finished his lunch (he was the last to finish), he wiped his chin with his linen napkin and set it down... the stewardess was discretely watching him and the moment his napkin touched the china plate she pressed a button, a bell went off in the cockpit and we immediately banked and began our descent - followed momentarily by the typical cabin announcement (in German or Dutch first, then English) "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have begun our descent into...."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:00PM
Similar laws (related to alcohol) work well in parts of northern Europe (the tax-all-sins parts, predictably).
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Friday February 15 2019, @12:09AM
Been in place for decades ... think 'terrorist checked a bomb in his luggage and didn't board the plane'.
Again .. been in place for *decades* now.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:18AM
"wW lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume." that's the miracle of MBA, of course you never gonna get it (grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:45AM (1 child)
Really, this is the airlines trying to smash "the invisible hand" with a mallet, and when they miss they try to trick a judge into smashing it with his gavel.
The crux of it is that traveling from A to C isn't all that popular, so there's only so much they can demand for that trip, BUT it is profitable at that price so they offer it. It just so happens that the most efficient way to accomplish the trip is A to B to C. so that's what they do. So far so good.
The problem is, even though they could obviously provide profitable trips from A to B for not more than the trip A to B to C, they charge double because B is popular and they can get away with it. If there was a healthy market, they couldn't do that, but that's not the actual situation.
The problem for the airlines is that people are getting wise to the scam and have found a workaround. This is the airlines saying "please ignore the man behind the curtain OR WE'LL SUE YOUR ASS OFF!"
What the airline is actually losing is the ability to take advantage of an unhealthy market and an inadequately informed customer..
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:09PM
I view pricing schemes that include negative-cost legs as perturbing the market in such a way as to make it less healthy. They're doing this because they've caused a mess by doing it and other stuff like it.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 5, Informative) by rigrig on Thursday February 14 2019, @01:26AM (8 children)
Why they offer this weird pricing" (took me a while to find this in the reddit thread)
Airline A offers a direct flight from City 1->City 3 for $100
Airline B doesn't have a direct route, they only fly from City 1->City 2 and from City 2->City 3, both for $100
B still has some free seats on both trips, but nobody flies from City 1->City 3 with them, because it would cost $200 and involve another landing in City 2.
So B can only compete on City 1->City 3 by asking less than $100 for the combined trip.
(And I imagine if this becomes common practice they might start pricing it at $200 and offer a $125 rebate on arrival or something like that)
In this case it looks like they mostly lost because lack of transparency in their terms and conditions:
Passengers have no realistic way of knowing in advance how much the airline will charge for failure to show up.
In this case: the passenger booked a return ticket Oslo-(Frankfurt)-Seattle-(Frankfurt)-Oslo and a separate Frankfurt-Berlin ticket, and the airline wanted to charge him with the full difference for a Oslo-Frankfurt-Seattle-Frankfurt-Berlin ticket.
It looks like the judge also didn't think that was a fair calculation, as he only missed the last leg of the return journey.
(Note that this was a case in Germany, where consumers generally enjoy quite a bit of protection.)
No one remembers the singer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @02:11AM
Failure to show up?!? When did airlines start charging for not taking the flight you booked with them? Seriously, when did they start doing that? In all my years of flying I have never heard of this.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:22AM
You're imagining that net fares will decrease from $100 to $75 - sounds more like dreaming to me.
For decades, the fare from MIA to Washington DC ran around $900, while the fare from Fort Lauderdale to DC could be had for the mid hundreds at times, and always less than $300. Fort Lauderdale airport is something like a 30 minute drive from MIA, you could reserve a limo, with hookers (attractive ones - it's only a 30 minute ride after all), both ways MIA-FLL and FLL-MIA, and not only come out cheaper on the Fort Lauderdale route, but possibly with better timing for your schedule. Still, somehow, they fill those $900 seats.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @03:27AM (2 children)
I think this mostly ended up in court because of that final leg from Frankfurt-Berlin, proving pre-meditation and negating a simple "something came up and I had to miss my flight" defense.
Back in the 1990 time frame, I needed to buy a one-way fare from Europe back to the US, and, apparently, Belgium and the Netherlands had some kind of fare-structuring regulation at that time that required one-way fares to be priced approximately half of the round-trip fares. Flights from other countries were actually cheaper round-trip than they were one-way. There were many reasons, but I ended up driving and taking a train from Hamburg to Brussels, and spending a few nights on the way, to get my return flight - and it was net-cheaper to do it that way than to pay the one-way fare out of Hamburg.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:18PM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday February 14 2019, @09:06PM
Hell yeah, even if the fares were the same there were people to see in Brussels anyway...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Touché) by darkfeline on Thursday February 14 2019, @04:24AM (1 child)
Maybe they should just lower their prices instead to fill those free seats? Supply and demand curves and whatnot.
All this is is a bug in their customer rape maximization algorithms, and they're getting angry people are taking advantage of it instead of fixing their goddamn algorithms.
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(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:18PM
boom! +1
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Thursday February 14 2019, @06:31PM
So basically airline B figured out to get paid for seats that are guaranteed to be empty otherwise yet letting people use it doesn't have extra cost for airline basically resulting in free money. If airline is allowed to be a smartass then why passengers can't be?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @04:16AM (3 children)
What a lot of posters here are missing is that the airlines don't just get to make up their routes. They get to apply for their routes, and governments get to tell them which routes they have to take, and which are optional, and which are not available for them.
And they have to suck it up.
This means that they get to fly a lot of unprofitable , unpopular routes regardless of what the economics of the situation would be. The pricing for those routes is different from the pricing on the popular routes because of simple supply and demand.
I'm not saying that they're saints; they're not. But if you're looking for the justification for their weird and counterintuitive behaviour, you don't have to look further than government regulations.
They're in almost as bad a position as brewers in the USA, who pretty much have to go to the feds, cap in hand, for permission to put a product on the market every single time.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @06:33AM (1 child)
dumb shill.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @07:00AM
downmodding an AC, how clever.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @06:12PM
The fuck-up in the US are the obligatory and entirely arbitrary 3-tier distribution laws, which basically forbids producers from selling to consumers. That's exactly the opposite of encouraging a free market. Fortunately a few cases have punched through that set-up and been justified by the courts.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @10:46AM (1 child)
This is the only language these bastards understand. It doesn't hurt that this will help the atmosphere too.
That is, unless you like the TSA guy's hands down there.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:21PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 14 2019, @06:39PM
Airlines price their tickets with an eye to maximize extraction of 'rent' on the seat, because they can. What this guy is doing, is interfering with monopoly rent extraction. Why do so many people consider this wrong? It should be a competitive sport among savvy fliers.