Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
More than 45% of non-elderly adults with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD) report financial hardship due to the associated medical bills, according to a Yale research team. Worse still, about one in five report being unable to pay those medical bills at all, said the researchers.
This study appears in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.
According to the study, which was scaled up from the data sample provided by the 2013-2017 National Health Interview Survey, the non-elderly American adults with ASCVD experiencing medical bill-related financial hardship represents an estimated 3.9 million individuals.
"It is remarkably disheartening to see how many people suffer severe financial adverse effects of having atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease," said Harlan Krumholz, M.D., Yale cardiologist and director of the Yale Center for Outcomes Research and Evaluation (CORE). "We have much work to do to ensure that people are spared the financial toxicity of disease that is imposed by our current healthcare system."
Of the group who indicated financial hardship, more than one in three reported that they have also experienced significant financial distress, cut back on purchasing basic necessities like food, and/or skimped on taking essential but costly medications in response to the burden of their medical bills.
Materials provided by Yale University.
-- submitted from IRC
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @04:31PM (40 children)
Yes, From article :
While one may expect financial hardship to predominantly affect those without insurance, we found that the majority of individuals with ASCVD suffering from financial hardship were insured, pointing towards inadequate protection with greater cost shifting towards patients and their families
(Score: 5, Informative) by opinionated_science on Saturday February 16 2019, @04:43PM (32 children)
with perhaps a $6000 deductible, it really skews the costs of medical procedures.
Medicare is $1.3 trillion. Medicaid $1.7 trillion. The federal govt is subsidizing healthcare by $3 trillion , and also has price controls on procedures (Medicare publishes a load of stuff on this), but not medications (yet?).
But us suckers (if you are 65, you are on Medicare (you paid for it in your taxes - sort of) , but there is the lovely "medicare supplemental insurance" if you want to see a physician.
Just throwing some facts out there...I'm not in a citation mood, I just *work* in this area...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:34PM (31 children)
"Insurance" is a crock anymore... high deductibles, additional premiums for "unusual" procedures like knee replacement, use it or lose it tax dodge accounts, constantly shifting prescription drug coverage (hey, let's give full Rx coverage this year, then yank it next year after they're hooked on a $500 per month pill...)
The only way to win is not to play.
Increasingly, private pay healthcare in Mexico would seem to be the better value for US citizens - maybe that's what the Wall is really about?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @08:08PM
http://selfpaypatient.com/about/ [selfpaypatient.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @09:36PM (9 children)
Insurance is a crock in the classical sense of spreading out risk over a long term of paying premia, but it has become a membership club where you will pay $20 and the insurance company pays the remaining $180 that they negotiated for a blood test, while the guy off the street without membership gets a bill for $5000 and filings against his credit rating when he can't pay.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @09:48PM
Have you ever gotten healthcare without insurance? It is the opposite. It is usually cheaper than even the copay and deductable. No one pays that $5k bill, look up "chargemaster": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargemaster [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @09:51PM (6 children)
You're supposed to call the billing department and negotiate those bills. You probably won't get it as cheap as the insurance company, but they should be willing to negotiate it down to something that reflects the actual cost plus some profit.
Especially, if it's something that you can't legitimately afford without cutting the margin.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Saturday February 16 2019, @11:26PM (1 child)
Depends on the motivations. The hospital may be trying to prove some point or other, and refuse to give a millimeter. Their billing department could well be corrupt and dishonest. They know they're full of it, and they don't care. I spoke with the head of the billing department at a hospital and he claimed he'd never heard of a chargemaster. I can't believe that. What he thought he was accomplishing by playing stupid like that, I don't know.
Their prices are way beyond stratospherically high. They're not on the same planet. Even 90% off, which they may offer to the uninsured, is still outrageously high. To have a real idea of how badly the hospital is trying to rip you off, you have to compare with Medicare's prices. For example, the chargemaster price for a CT scan at a local hospital I know is $9100. 90% off is $910, still nearly 5 times the Medicare price of $189.
The infamous 1 liter bag of saline solution makes a fine example. Chargemaster price: $306. Insurance adjusted price, maybe $150, maybe $27. Medicare price: $2. So the best price between the best insurance can do or 90% off is still over 10 times the Medicare price.
One of their favorite excuses is the old, tired wheeze that the price reflects other expenses. Oh yeah? Well, they also charge a facility fee which is likely well over $1000, to cover these mysterious other expenses. Medicare's price for the facility fee is interesting. They say it's total bull, and will not pay anything at all on that item!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:41AM
That's not really how the industry works. They set very high prices because they know they'll generally be dealing with insurance and it's completely unpredictable how much the company will pay and for what. So you get these ridiculously high bills and for weird things. The hospitals have to do that because they don't know what specific things will be covered to what extent and as a result, they can wind up not getting the money they need if they don't charge for everything.
In all likelihood the billing department will negotiate things down a lot in most cases as they aren't really expecting anybody to actually pay the price they charge in most cases. Now, for smaller providers, the price might well be closer to the proper price, but in most cases, the proper price that they'll accept is much lower than the original bill.
At absolute bare minimum, they'll generally offer some sort of payment plan.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:09AM (3 children)
Well, I can afford a lot. If I get charged $5000 for a blood test, and I only have $500 to my name, I can probably negotiate to a final $300 amount. But I own a house and a car, and have a decent job, so the provider has no reason to come down on price. They can just go to court and attach my assets if I don't pay.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:18AM (2 children)
So you just go around paying $5k for lists of random numbers or do you shop around first?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:03AM (1 child)
I'll remember to shop around next time I'm left unconscious after a car accident.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @05:21PM
Hilarious
1) What percent of medical expenses are used for something like that?
- Very little, the vast majority is for chronic conditions
2) Nothing is stopping you from shopping around beforehand.
- In general, planning ahead is now punished in our society
(Score: 1) by ChrisMaple on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:41AM
Routine and rather extensive blood chemistry panel ordered through the Life Extension Foundation is below $40 if I recall correctly, and less during their annual sale.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bzipitidoo on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:41PM (11 children)
Yeah, that's my situation. $6000 deductible. Even with the pre-existing condition nonsense squashed, there's still excuse after excuse why whatever medical I need is not covered at all and I'll just have to pay out of pocket despite being insured. And it won't count towards the deductable. Lengthy delays and other barriers when trying to use the insurance. Can't go straight to the specialist you know you need, no, have to see the useless Primary Care Physician (PCP) first, to get a referral. Oh, and it costs whatever your copay is to see the PCP even if all you needed was one lousy referral. And for this "insurance" for 3 people, I'm supposed to pay $1300/month, reduced to $400/month by government support. $400/month is still a lot.
Need dental work? Fuck you, pay for it all yourself, that doesn't count as health.
I got popped in the eye last summer. Saw flashes of light the night of the day it happened. What you're supposed to do is get your eye checked right away, find out if the retina is detaching, because if it is, and you do nothing, you will lose vision, and may go totally blind in the injured eye. So I rushed to an eye doctor the next day, and paid out of pocket. If I had gone through insurance channels, it would have been 2 weeks before I would know. Have to make an appointment with the PCP, who'd give me a referral, then an appointment with the eye doctor. They have this funny attitude that if you need a referral, it's not an emergency so you have to wait for the next available appointment. But that would have been too long. If I was losing my eyesight, 2 weeks was too long to wait.
If it is an emergency, then the only place you can go that insurance will cover is the emergency room. If you won't, then it must not have been an emergency. But if you do go to the emergency, even with insurance it will be very, very, very expensive, way more than the out of pocket cost I coughed up for the eye examination.
The last option is to take care of it yourself. Maybe do nothing at all, just take your chances and hope your body can heal on its own. Do your best to self-diagnose. And if it seems you will get better or at least not get worse, don't visit any doctors. I could have gone that route.
I have no problem with paying a fair price for medicine. The problem is, the prices in the US aren't fair. Even when it doesn't seem too terribly bad, they're going to try to slip crap past you.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:43AM (3 children)
The Democrats fucked up big time when they didn't include a public option. It still wouldn't have been enough, but it would have addressed a bunch of this silliness.
Of course, the fact that the GOP kept launching attack after attack after attack until they got enough of it set aside didn't help anything. If it had been implemented as planned, it would have been much better than what we would up with.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:31AM
Yep, if only the government run system didn't get messed up by politics it would work great.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:38AM (1 child)
The Democrats had a supermajority for a while. This can hardly be blamed on the GOP alone. The corporate democrats are the problem, and that's why groups like Justice Democrats exist to primary their asses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:05PM
"The Democrats had a supermajority for a while."
When? Seriously I'm drawing a blank on that.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:15PM (6 children)
Good lord, that's just awful, bzipitidoo.
I have posted this story here before I think, but in 2017 Mrs. Zombie fell down the stairs and fractured her ankle, badly.
She had a ride in an ambulance, several weeks in hospital, an operation, another stay in hospital complete with another operation, then several months of physiotherapy.
Total cost to me was $4 per hour for parking at the hospital when I visited (which is outrageous in my view) and about 4 $15 Physio charges, as Mrs. Zombie wanted some extra Physio work that was only partly covered.
You American Soylentals all argue about "co-pays" and "deductables" and how to negotiate with the hospital or whatever, but those of us who live in the rest of the world shrug and smile.
You guys have the worst possible health system, and right over your northern border is one that is so much better. I can't figure out why that is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:43PM (2 children)
Really? You think that was the "total cost"? You never pay taxes that go towards this?
Also, the US healthcare system is 100% overrun by scammers who are supported by and controlling the government.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday February 18 2019, @12:21AM (1 child)
No, of course not you A/C troll.
The point I was making (as if you didn't know) was that I didn't need to do "out of pocket" or "co-pay" or whatever other lunacy you guys in the US need to do.
I am well aware of who pays for the health services in my country, and I'm happy to play my part.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @12:48AM
So why did you use the term "total cost"?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Monday February 18 2019, @01:24AM (2 children)
> Total cost to me was $4 per hour for parking at the hospital
Yes, that is high. I wonder, are they trying to encourage you to walk, or take public transport or something? I would certainly have walked if there was a free parking space within 2km, and counted that as my exercise for the day.
> You guys have the worst possible health system, and right over your northern border is one that is so much better. I can't figure out why that is.
The American public actually would like a decent health care system. But several interests have colluded for decades against it. The main one is big business. Lot of management really believes slaves make better workers, so much so I often think that in a sense, the US Civil War is still being fought today. Employers like being able to offer health insurance to their employees, and not out of the goodness of their hearts either. What they really want is another hold over the employee. As in, be a shame if you lost your job and your pregnant wife had to give birth by the side of the road because you couldn't reach one of the few public hospitals quickly enough because the nearest is halfway across the state. Now, you will put in the effort necessary to finish this project on time, won't you, Mr. Zombie? Oh no, we're not asking you to work overtime! We didn't say that. That's your choice. Totally your choice. But you will see that the project is finished by the deadline, right? Right? Good man.
Then there's the ambulance chasing lawyers who like sky high prices, because that inflates the damages awarded, of which they typically get 1/3. Big Pharma is of course another interest in favor of the current mess. The doctors themselves don't mind raking in $200k annual pay either, for all they posture about being on the patients' sides.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @02:57AM
The reason healthcare is tied to employment in the US is because it is taxed less than salaries or wahes. Ie it is another thing the government causes:
https://www.marketplace.org/2017/06/28/health-care/how-did-we-end-health-insurance-being-tied-our-jobs [marketplace.org]
So as far as both business and government interests are the same I guess you are right.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @06:20AM
The Doctors probably average $200,000 up here as well. The couple I know seem to be doing well.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @12:10AM (7 children)
I agree! The real heart of the issue is the food industry. People eat like crap and the FDA lets it happen. Lobbyists run roughshod on congress. Chemicals are all over food and people eat it up. Fast food will kill you and it is preventable. Processed food will kill you! Heart disease is a symptom of a bad diet. Change the culture and the high production needs of big ag and maybe you will live longer. Better to buy local and organic. Big food is a dumb idea and will kill you. If you fix the real issue, then health care costs are not even an issue. I think I read that the French have the highest incidence of smokers in the world, but the lowest lung cancer rate. How is that possible? Diet solves a multitude of issues. Instead of tackling the real root of the problem, we in the US have decided to drug ourselves to death while continuing to eat things that kill us. We need to educate ourselves and stop buying the toxic crap big food is selling us.
(Score: 2) by slap on Sunday February 17 2019, @04:09AM (1 child)
"People eat like crap and the FDA lets it happen."
So, you want the FDA to put armed guards outside of fast food restaurants to keep people from eating crappy food? "Drop that Big Mac or I'll be forced to shoot!".
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @07:07AM
The official recommendations could be better. Should ketchup be a vegetable when considering a healthy meal?
Nothing wrong with the government giving advice if its good advice. The problem is when the lobbyists push for bad advice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:45AM (4 children)
People eat crap, because they can't afford to eat properly. One of the weird things about America right now is that it's the junk food that's cheap and the fruits and vegetables that are expensive. It's one of the few times in history where that's been the case. Traditionally, the fruits and vegetables were cheap and the meats and animal products that were expensive. Not to mention salt and sugar being relatively expensive compared with the healthier ingredients.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:17AM
Nah, I mostly eat stuff like salads, vegetables, and steak but still enjoy fast food and pizza. That stuff is just made to be addictive, it is fine if treated with the appropriate respect.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:06PM (2 children)
I don't think that's it, honestly. Vegetables are still cheap. Basic ingredients remain quite affordable. I can feed a family of four quite well for 4 weeks for $80 in NYC. There's an important caveat there, though: I have to assemble and cook the ingredients.
That's the rub for modern consumers. If you want other people--companies--to do all the work for you, you're gonna pay through the nose and find yourself ingesting mystery compound X.
Maybe the resort to processed food and fast food has grown because people have forgotten how to cook. I have read many articles like that over the last 20 years (sorry, don't have a handy citation in my back pocket). Maybe people think they don't have time to cook because they have to work harder and longer to afford skyrocketing costs in medical bills, rent, mortgages, car payments, and student loan payments.
There's the further cost-savings of growing stuff yourself. But that means gardening in the back yard instead of laying around watching Netflix, and planning out your meals and cooking for the week instead of posting on Facebook. Generally it means making different choices about how to spend your time and money.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @07:15AM (1 child)
For $5 a person a week, what are you feeding them? Couldn't even afford potatoes here for that ($8 for 20LBs), with a lettuce costing $2, a head of cauliflower hitting $5 a head and so on.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday February 20 2019, @04:57AM
it's not hard. we don't buy veg for more than $1/lb. we buy chicken on special. we buy eggs in bulk. in warmer months we supplement with produce we grow in the garden. we bake our own bread and make the rest of our baked goods from scratch. we eat leftovers for lunch the next day.
we eat well, too. once you know the keystone ingredients for major world cuisines you can easily vary dishes aroumd those. an ancillary benefit to that is we don't feel the need to eat out, and that saves a lot of money.
it does take time, though. we like to cook so that's not a big deal to us, but other people might not have the time or want to spend the time.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:33PM
Bah, those incels need to learn how to live within their means. They ain't got no right to force me to fund their lifestyle choices. They should have thought about how they're going to afford it before they decided to get cardiovascular disease.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:18PM (5 children)
Considering nearly half of US adults have zero savings, this is hardly surprising. A lot of people in the country like to spend everything they get, no matter how much or little they earn.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:47PM (4 children)
And a lot more people just aren't getting anything to spend in the first place.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:15PM (3 children)
Are they not getting it because it is going to a do nothing insurance company?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @11:46PM (2 children)
No, GP is telling you that they are not doing anythign productive, hence they are not gettign paid, so you have to give them free advanced healthcare.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:50AM (1 child)
Doing nothing productive nets huge amounts of money. Just look at how profitable it was for the bankers to crash the economy.
The people actually producing our wealth get paid peanuts at best.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:43AM
Yep, the government and fed gave them like $20 trillion in loans from that. We should raise taxes on the rich so the government has even more money to give away in corporate welfare.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by RedGreen on Saturday February 16 2019, @04:38PM (28 children)
That is what you get when you live in a country that does not give a shit about its people. Fortunately when they fixed my heart in my country Canada, it was without costs to me. And I will say it again, I will love them wonderful people at the QEII hospital that saved my life until the day I die.
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Saturday February 16 2019, @04:56PM (21 children)
I am heartened (no pun intended) to hear your heart was treated.
I too love when people do their jobs, and get paid.
The problem is the confluence of "we reserve the result to refuse service" (ok for a restaurant probably, *mostly* illegal for hospitals in the US, and rationed in other countries by physician guardians), and the "getting paid" bit.
The answer is quite simple - if you need treatment it should be provided.
But how to pay for it....
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:07PM (15 children)
But how to pay for it....
Tax the totally non-productive finance transactions of Wall Street. It's our money, we just have to recover it and put it to use. The U.S. can trivially afford universal health care, but we choose to believe the lies from the insurance industry and vote for their puppet politicians because, *Blood and Soil*
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:59PM (9 children)
How does giving money to the government help people without enough money? Why is there never a part 2 to these plans that actually helps people instead of giving more funding to corrupt politicians controlled by corporations and the super rich?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:48PM (8 children)
There is no "part 2". The voter get what he/she votes for. It is quite trivial to vote out the crooked politician. It takes nothing more than the desire.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:59PM (7 children)
Is this a joke? Most people will just vote for a name they recognize...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @09:21PM (6 children)
That's not the politician's fault. The voter is the only one that is responsible for the choices they make. When corrupt politicians win reelection, it's because the voters want a piece of that corruption for themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @09:28PM (5 children)
Ok well keep voting for giving more money to the government and blaming "the voter" when it is used for corrupt stuff then. I am sure your understanding of the world will lead to great success.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @08:44AM (4 children)
Oversight is the voters' responsibility. You, like so many of the others, simply engage in blame passing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:23AM (1 child)
I vote responsibly: never for a republicrat. Anyone running for either of those parties has sold out, even Ron Paul. Unlike you, I don't expect it makes much difference though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @03:18AM
I don't expect it makes much difference though.
Nope, it doesn't, until the other 95% stop reelecting republican/democrats. Still, it's nobody's fault but the voters, that 95% that plays along to get along. Look nowhere else. The government is a mere reflection of the voters' apathy (and antipathy) and corruption.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:17PM (1 child)
This might shock you, but bureaucrats actively resist oversight from voters. They use two main tactics: obfuscation and exhaustion.
Obfuscation means scores of pages of legalese and jargon that is never defined. It means ambiguous phrasing they interpret to their profit.
Exhaustion means hiding the most important bits in the most purposely tedious sections that it would take superhuman endurance to get through. It means scheduling key hearings at 10pm Christmas Eve, or changing the location at the last minute so the public shows up to the wrong place. It means keeping documents at a location that is three hour's drive away from the city, in an office that's only open 30 minutes a day, and accessible only if in possession of paperwork you have to fill out that day at another office that's three hours' drive in the other direction.
And all this is visited upon voters who are working three jobs to pay the taxes to fund the salaries of said bureaucrats.
So let's not glibly lay everything at the feet of voters who are "not performing oversight." The only oversight bureaucrats understand and respond to is a punch to the face and a boot up the ass. Anything shy of that, any pretense to following their rules, is a complete waste of time.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @03:04AM
All they have to do is vote out the incumbents. And if the voters can't fix it, then who the hell can? What kind of miracle are all of you expecting? In a monarchy the king is responsible. In a democracy or republic only the people can be held responsible. If you don't demand better, how the hell do you expect to get it? I think you people are all crazy. You're doing everything you possibly can to evade responsibility for the choices you make. It's much easier to just say there is no free will. Then we can move on
(Score: 1) by ChrisMaple on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:13AM (4 children)
Wow. Just wow. I have seldom seen a more blatant and dishonest rationale for thievery. "Money on Wall Street" is mostly investor ownership of shares of corporations; I own shares of a company's stock, that's my money that you are proposing to steal from me. --- "It's our money" No it's not, it's the money of individual investors.
To the extent that Wall Street firms have money of their own, it's from fees on trades, fees for advice and account management, profits from financial products they offer.
For what it's worth, your massive ignorance of Wall Street activity is shown by your not knowing that the Securities and Exchange Commission already charges a fee on stock sales.
No country can afford universal health care, (let alone trivially) because there is no limit to the amount of healthcare a person can receive. There is not enough human labor available, and nowhere near enough skilled labor, to provide universal health care.
Let's have an example. Let's say for my physical health I claim that I need massages 24 hours a day, plus the use of a prostitute, and a nurse to monitor my health. How does society pay for the 6 people that requires, plus a room in a care center? Where are the 36 people to provide for the healthcare of those 6 people? Where are the 216 people to care for those 36? This is a nice exponential explosion that exhausts humanity.
Universal health care is universal theft and slavery. Long term, everybody loses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:36AM
Key word is "sales", there is no tax on the buyer. Yet another government market manipulation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @08:59AM (1 child)
Quite an advertisement you put out there! But you're full of it. Wall Street trades are simple money laundering, buying and selling of stolen property, our money supply. It's like a rain forest canopy. Money flows amongst the thieves overhead while very little trickles to the ground for the rest of us to fight over. Private central banks have always been the principal cause of all economic "disasters". It's always a simple case of robbery, nothing more. Nope, that's our money. Time for us to take it back... And time for Wall Street thieves to begin to earn theirs! Or be locked up for grand larceny and racketeering, conspiracy, fraud, extortion, murder, you name it, they did it!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:25AM
Hoarding money is stealing, inflation is giving to the poor.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:26PM
A country cannot afford the massive redundancy and complication of multiple benefits departments and mutually incompatible systems of paperwork and covered conditions. It totally fubars the labor markets when skilled workers fear to move, or cannot move, because health issues they or their families have risk medical coverage.
Accordingly, it has long been documented that Americans pay far more for their healthcare, with far poorer outcomes.
National healthcare that is the same wherever you go, throughout your life, makes much more economic sense. Then we don't lose the massive investments we make as a society in education and training in workers who fall ill. We don't lose massive amounts of time and money in redundant insurance networks and administration that goes with that. We win huge efficiencies in time and effort to get people back on their feet again and engaged in productive activity.
America's healthcare nightmare hurts everyone but health insurance company executives.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:43AM
Yes, how will we pay for a system which would actually be cheaper than the system as have now? Maybe the same way we pay for all the illegal, unconstitutional, offensive wars we're engaged in. Maybe we could even roll back the tax cuts on the mega rich.
I just like how people ask 'How do we pay for it?' when it comes to things that help ordinary people, but most of them don't ask the same question when it comes to war, the military, mass surveillance, the drug war, and so on. I wonder why that is?
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:26PM (3 children)
Ask Britain. They've been paying for the NHS since 1946 (despite the Tories best attempts to bugger it up).
You could also ask Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, Austria... (This list could be quite long).
There is no mystery to any of this. It's a solved problem.
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Monday February 18 2019, @07:02PM (2 children)
The NHS runs on rationing - don't think the public hasn't notice (postcode lottery they call it).
The NHS only survives because the *whole* system is subsidized by the education system (cheaper to train) , with some cherry picking by the private providers (same Dr's , private clinic for "elective bonus").
The NHS cannot pursue risky strategies to save lives, therefore implements "least worst" medical care available.
When setup in 1946, the demographics were vastly different. The number of *treatments* were exponentially smaller.
www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/files/2018-07/facts-and-figs-website.pdf
Seriously, the "OMG they did their job!!" reaction to medical treatment is *how* they got their "mouths stuffed with gold" ( a comment by the politicians when they setup the NHS).
Any industry that can compel payment for natural occurring discomfort, pain or mortal threat - has you at a disadvantage....
(Score: 3, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Monday February 18 2019, @11:18PM (1 child)
The problems with the NHS in the UK are almost entirely because the Tories have spent the better part of two generations undermining public institutions by underfunding them.
And yet when asked, guess what people in the UK are most proud of? [statista.com]
The "mouths stuffed with gold" comment is from Aneurin Bevan the Health Minister who was negotiating with the doctors to set the NHS up. Doctors hated the idea and fought him. It was made as part of the negotiations.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @07:25AM
Notice that business comes in at the bottom at 4%. Wonder what the results to a similar poll in the States would be.
(Score: 3, Funny) by RandomFactor on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:09PM (1 child)
So you are saying that in RedGreen's [soylentnews.org] case they cut the Green wire, not the Red wire [youtube.com]?
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @07:31AM
Hey, at least he can fix anything with duct tape.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ilPapa on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:59PM (3 children)
Even Rand Paul goes to Canada for health care. It's some of the best in the world, and you don't see common prescription drugs going for $50,000 up there.
The US really needs to just use the Canadian system as a starting point and make a few tweaks here and there and be done with it. Put the big insurance companies out of business once and for all. Let them all go find productive jobs for a change, instead of just being parasites.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 4, Funny) by JoeMerchant on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:37PM (2 children)
Copy the Canadian system? Yeah, that will go over like a Lead Balloon in Congress.
It's bad enough that a bloody revolution would seem to be warranted. Death to the Corporations! That should play well to the plebes, now, how do we it past the corporate lobbyists?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by ilPapa on Monday February 18 2019, @09:49PM (1 child)
It's all about marketing. Make a plan that uses the Canadian medicare as a starting point, then call it "PatriotCare" or something. Name the bill the "Patriot Health Care for Families and Children Act" or some shit and dare people to vote against it.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday February 19 2019, @07:34AM
Call it States rights. The Provinces run the healthcare in Canada with the feds bribing to keep everything fairly even. Sorta how highways are done down there. No Constitutional changes needed either.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @04:41PM (9 children)
Sick people should die sooner, before they replicate and pass on the defective parts
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:14PM (5 children)
The only thing social darwinism would be good for is if trolls like you died sooner. Preferably very painfully.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:16PM (3 children)
Oh dear! Did the poor little SJW get triggered by something so fucking obvious?
Christ! Does everything need an emoji tag now?! Yes, even the package of firecrackers has a "Do not eat" warning to appease them. Heh, for them, it should be amended, "... before lighting fuse".
You people are blowing it! Making it even easier for the republicans. That's how repulsive you have become.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:27PM
The only thing I see here is you getting triggered. Relax mate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:38PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:41PM
Tell that to the idiot that modded the OP down
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:03PM
I don't know about that -- can healthcare-targeted actuarial AI programs feel pain? Seems like a good area for exploration.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:56PM (1 child)
Why is it every single jackhole who says "hurr hurr social Darwinism" understands neither the modern synthesis nor prosocial behavior?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:06AM
Do you always take everything so damn seriously?? My god! You people are all nuts! We are so doomed to a world of sourpuss savage nazis! All Trump! All the damn time!
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:16AM
Darwinism, my dear meatbag, says you are all getting obsolete.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:10PM (12 children)
How does a 'non-elderly' person get clogged arteries? Shouldn't McDonald's et al be partly responsible?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:25PM (5 children)
Working "on the road" for a tech company (providing support at customer sites) and failing to properly select from restaurant menus.
Quad bypass at age 47.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:42PM
Bah. You sound like an incel to me. It's called personal responsibility. Didn't your momma teach you to eat your vegetables?
I don't know what GP is complaining about either. Just shop around. You can get open heart surgery for the cost of one of those iPhones you millennials think you need if you just tell them you're paying with cash.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:30PM (3 children)
And even then nobody's sure what happens, you know, the otherwise 100% healthy active eats right just had a complete workup and stress test and suddenly dies of heart attack. And then you have people who do all the wrong things and live long and well (although very rarely if overweight). We're (humankind) still learning. One day it's too much sugar, another it's calcium pills, another it's fat, then there are good fats and bad fats, then it's food additives, preservatives, "processing". Artificial sweeteners are now linked to stroke (I rarely consume them- can't stand the taste) https://www.consumerreports.org/sugar-sweeteners/artificially-sweetened-drinks-linked-to-stroke/ [consumerreports.org]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:38PM (2 children)
Medical research uses NHST, which is pseudoscience. That is why they generate and endless list of conflicting results like that. In science you have people independently replicating each others work and testing predictions of their theories on new data. You won't find this in medical research, only significant p-value's and peer review.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:19PM (1 child)
More on NHST and p values -- here's a lecture that demonstrates how much more useful it is to use confidence intervals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ4kqk3V8jQ [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:55PM
People still use confidence interval to do NHST, that isn't an alternative by itself. You can also do NHST with bayes factors...
(Score: 5, Interesting) by HiThere on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:15PM (4 children)
There are lots of different ways, and all the simple explanations are wrong. Not just wrong, but so wrong it's foolish to pay them any attention. There have been children under 10 who have died to coronary obstructive disease. The have been centenarians who lived largely on bacon and never exercised if they could avoid it. I, personally, am overweight, sedentary, a computer programmer by trade, in my 70's, eat eggs every day, and I've got *low* cholesterol.
If we weren't progressing so fast in gene therapy I'd say that there was reason (not good reason, but still reason) for the argument that we should let evolution take care of the process. But evolution is *SLOW* on the human time-scale, and *EXTREMELY* slow on the technological scale. So that argument fails totally. People can waffle all they want about adopting genetic techniques to germ line cells, but that's on the human scale. As far as evolution is concerned that change is happening so fast it couldn't be noticed (speaking metaphorically). (And that "so fast" in the first sentence of the paragraph is really my own foolishness. Technical progress that seems too slow to notice on the human scale is still happening too fast to be noticed on the evolutionary scale.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:42PM
Processing so fast in gene therapy? Good people are such rubes, when will you learn to identify marketing materials meant to sell patents and pump stocks?
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:05PM (1 child)
Blah blah blah ... bacon ... eggs ... waffle ... blah blah blah ok now I'm hungry.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:58PM
If the idea of a waffle makes you crave food you have a carb addiction. That isn't hunger you are feeling.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:07PM
Sounds like a great way to hide stuff in plain sight over a long period of time.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:27PM
Perhaps they or their parents followed the advice in the '70s that butter was of the devil and consumed those yummy trans-fats in their margarine.
(Score: 0, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:21PM (12 children)
He says in the Headline, "oh, nearly half of U.S. adults" blah blah. But in the Summary it's the NON-ELDERLY adults. What is non-elderly? You have to pay $36 to find out. But, probably it's a lot. I'm 72, am I elderly? Crazy Bernie is 77, is he? What about Crooked H -- age 71? Rand Paul, 56 and elderly? He's old enough for the AARP. And we take care of our elderly, otherwise referred to as Senior Citizen, very well. We have the Universal, right? But "Senior Citizens VERY HEALTHY in America," that's a terrible headline. Doesn't bring in the "clicks" from all the folks that hate America. So they put the Fake Headline.
I don't want people dying on the streets. The Republican people, they don't want people dying on the streets, but sometimes they'll say "Donald Trump wants single payer." The new plan is good. It's going to be inexpensive. It's going to be much better for the people at the bottom, people that don't have any money. We're going to take care of them through maybe concepts of Medicare. Why can't Medicare simply cover everybody? Now, some people would say, "oh, that's not a very Republican thing to say." That's not single payer, by the way. That's called heart. We gotta take care of people that can't take care of themselves.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:46PM (11 children)
Single payer looks like "the best" from where I stand. You pay into it all your life, you benefit from it all your life. It isn't turned off and on, every time you change jobs. You aren't punished for having a condition, often referred to as "preexisting". You aren't punished if you lose your job, and remain unemployed for an extended period of time.
The latest scam from my insurance company - I need to provide a copy of our marriage certificate, or they'll drop my wife. WTF difference is it to the insurance company whether we are married, or not? We've been together for over thirty years, we share a home, we share the bills, we've raised three kids together, we've buried our parents together - how does a scrap of paper make any difference? I'm paying the premiums, they provide coverage - that should be the end of the story.
I have no idea whatsoever how many Americans might be denied insurance, because they aren't "properly" married. Common law wives and husbands are wives and husbands, no less than those married at the Vatican, by the pope himself.
Before anyone draws the wrong conclusions - I do have a marriage certificate. I'm just ranting that it's NONE OF THE INSURANCE COMPANY'S BUSINESS. I pay the premiums, I get the service contracted for - that is how business is supposed to work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @05:54PM (6 children)
submit the proof they want, I don't dislike you enough to wish you sickness, especially uncovered. Afterwards inform the ACLU and fill a complaint with the BBB.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @06:57PM (5 children)
You think that without insurance you will get sick?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:11PM
Yes, insurance is like the flu shot. Were you born yesterday?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:32PM (3 children)
no but if he or his wife get sick without coverage the hardship is compounded
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @07:42PM (2 children)
It is only compounded if you already gave your money away to an insurance company...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 16 2019, @11:22PM (1 child)
Hey, I suppose your rigth, please forgive my ignorance about for profit health care, I live in Canada...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @03:21AM
Same thing, you already gave your healthcare funds away to the state then. It'll just take longer for the Ponzi to play out for you.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday February 16 2019, @10:02PM
Yes.
This is how the marketing leaflet reads, yes. Until the next merger. That and your GP retiring.
Wash, rinse, repeat until the Runaway's account is squeaky clean.
ooops. sorry about that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2, Informative) by ChrisMaple on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:26AM (2 children)
Justice is getting what you pay for, and paying for what you get. If you have a defective body, you need a lot more care, yet you seem to expect that you not be charged more for that greater care. That's not justice.
People rightly expect to pay more for a Ferrari than a shoe; you want the price to be the same and you don't particularly care where the money comes from or how Ferrari will stay in business.
That said, insurance companies are scum. It comes from being in the business of preying on people's fears.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:03AM (1 child)
That borders on preposterous.
I'm somewhat of a cheapskate, and I understand that paying for a new car is anything other than cheap. It depreciates immediately after driving it off the new car lot. The shine doesn't make it ride any more comfortably, doesn't make it go any faster. If I want to maintain that new car warranty, I'm obliged to take it back to the dealer for routine, regular maintenance. I have a lot of money invested in that new car, so I pay for the best insurance. Unless I've financed the new car, in which case the bank demands that I pay for the best insurance. New cars and cheapskates don't go together.
In the case of health insurance and medical care, we in the US pay for the best - but we get second or third hand goods. That really offends the cheapskate in me.
Until Obama-care was passed, I payed exorbitant prices for health care. When Obama-care passed, I paid exorbitant +15% prices. In the years since Obama-care passed, it has gone up to exorbitant +25% prices. And, I've gained NOTHING in service. If anything, I've lost services. Doctors have refused my insurance card, so I must drive further to see doctors who do accept my insurance card. Copay has increased, and the annual max on copay has increased.
Overall, I've been raped by our existing system, and it only promises to get worse.
Canadians seem to be content, even happy with their system. Going back to the car analogy, they appear to pay for a second-hand car, and get a second-hand car. They don't pay for new, and get a third-hand car.
Of course, the insurance isn't the whole story. We have to take that dishonest insurance industry, factor in a crooked pharmaceuticals industry, multiply by less-than-honest hospital administrations, add the medical professionals, and last but not least, add some fudge factor for crooked politicians who profit off the whole damned thing.
We're being fucked, plain and simple. We pay higher prices than anyone in the WORLD, for mediocre care.
Oh, if you're a congress critter, or you're filthy rich, or you have connections, you can get the best care in the world, right here in the states. But, all the rest of us, who are paying new-car prices, are still riding ragged out jalopies.
You want to talk about justice? Really? Where's the justice in our present set-up?
Everyone on this site knows that I'm generally opposed to socialism. I'm most definitely opposed to communism. But, when the entire world has more equitable health care than we have, it's time to admit that our capitalism is just plain broken. (Note that I said "equitable", not "better" health care. Tribes in the rainforests may have shitty healthcare, but they aren't charged for Cadillac care.)
Another note on health care. Those poorest among us are the worst burden on health care. They don't pay anything for it, but when they are sick or injured, they go the Emergency Room. They can't be turned away, but they are utilizing the most expensive portion of our health care system. Given single payer, the poorest would pay nothing or close to nothing, but they would have access to *REAL* health care. Doctor's office visits are far, far, FAR cheaper than emergency room visits. Actual care and prevention is cheaper than crisis intervention by orders of magnitude.
It would save money for YOU, as well as me, and every other taxpayer and insurance buyer in this country. Think about it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:26PM
Yea, the US health care system is capitalistic, not riddled with government intervention at all...