from the nothing-in-that-store-costs-1$-anyway dept.
In a Washington Post story picked up by the S. Louis Post-Dispatch, reporter Rachel Siegel asks the question "Are dollar stores a response to poverty - or a cause?"
The fundamental premise of the story is
fear the stores deter other business, especially in neighborhoods without grocers or options for healthy food. Dollar stores rarely sell fresh produce or meats, but they undercut grocery stores on prices of everyday items, often pushing them out of business.
this creates what is referred to by one patron as a 'food desert'
their unstoppable rise...keeps grocers from opening.
implications are made
With fewer options for fresh food and health care, people in a North Tulsa ZIP code have an average life expectancy of 11 years less than those in South Tulsa, according to a 2015 city report.
"It creates an overall sense of the neighborhood being run-down," said Stacy Mitchell, [of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance]. "It's a recipe for locking in poverty rather than alleviating it."
Contrariwise, these stores
are a vital source of cheap staples
The last Dollar General to open is across the street from a senior citizens home. That store, Henderson said, is a lifeline to residents.
the council thinks it's appropriate for city government to pick winners and losers in the economy.
and while not typical, some do indeed sell fruits and vegetables
grapes, apples, avocados, potatoes sandwiched between bags of fried pork skins and cases of Michelob Ultra.
It's Walmart all over again in a way.
Grocery stores run on thin profit margins - usually between 1 and 3 percent. And they employ more workers than dollar stores to keep perishable food stocked.
"It's no longer the big-box grocery store" that threatens local businesses, said David Procter, a Kansas State University professor who studies rural grocery stores. "But it's the discount retailer that's coming to town and setting up shop right across the street."
Some localities have added restrictions on the stores, for example
Mesquite, Texas, a Dallas suburb, approved changes to its zoning code last year that will limit the number of dollar stores. The guidelines prevent them from opening within 5,000 feet of each other. And stores must dedicate 10 percent of floor space to fresh food.
Tulsa is working to solve the 'food desert' problem they attribute to the stores
This month, a deal was reached with ECO Farms, a local company that focuses on indoor vertical farming to solve food deserts. Two company executives, Jim Bloom and Adam James, said that while this is their first try at a grocery store, they're intent on making healthy food a reality in District 1 - not a luxury.
"We're attending to this as a human right, not a geographic privilege," James said.
However, as the article notes - "grocery stores have struggled here before"
The nearest dollar store to me is about four-five miles (15 minutes or so) on busy backroads. My experiences with them are lack of selection and significant product gaps. Very hit or miss and you just have to go shop somewhere like Kroger or Publix afterwards anyway to finish out your list, so I don't bother as I don't have the time to spend on the extra commute and double shopping.
If everyone was like me dollar stores might not be experiencing the success they very obviously are.
So how about some other perspectives? Do Soylentils love them or hate them? Is this a first world problem?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:23PM
I would say it depends if the "dollar store" is selling local products.
Since it mostly sell cheap product mass produced somewhere else, then yes it would undercut any store that would want to open.
If the store would be restricted to selling local products, then you will be able to see some competition. But that would impede on business decisions.
So the remaining options is taxing imported products so that it would mostly match local production, this would allow local and foreign producers to compete.
Also "free trade" is just a way for any country to undercut business somewhere else. Avoid at all cost.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:34PM (20 children)
Some of their items can be had less than a dollar elsewhere.
_That_ is preying on the poor.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:50PM (1 child)
My wife works in one. There's stuff being bought at dollar tree being resold on Amazon or eBay with huge profits.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:09PM
It happens that I've found a local supplier of items that he sells from two to six dollars, that I can sell on Amazon or eBay for tent to thirty.
I contemplated pointing that out to him, but he's old. The items he sells suggests to me he wouldn't be into hanging out in front of a computer all day.
So _I_ will start buying up his items than selling them online.
However, I really don't him to miss this opportunity. Once I get back on my feet, I'll suggest to him that we form a partnership in which I operate an eCommerce site specifically for his store. I'd ask him to photograph each item then entire it into a database app that would form our store's inventory.
I think he'd be heavily into doing the shipping, just not the computing so maybe I'll do that data entry myself. Actually I just now realized he's got some young employees.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:05PM (16 children)
I'd go to an ALDI over a Family Dollar Tree General any day. They often knock prices to rock bottom to clear stuff out of the store. Example: 8 oz. of organic figs for $0.25 that I got a couple of weeks ago. Ends up being 2400 calories for $1. And they sell produce of varying quality but covering a good enough range for me (onions, ginger, cabbage, eggplant, sweet potatoes, radishes, etc.)
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by stretch611 on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:39PM (13 children)
Personally, I go to both.
Aldi is where I get most of my foods. While there are a few (very few) exceptions, you can't beat the value and quality for the price at ALDI. They essentially do it by only stocking store brands. They have a few brands, but if you want brand name items, the price increases significantly. I pay less for a gallon of milk at ALDI than I do for a half-gallon at the mainstream grocery store. They have a house brand of Tombstone Pizzas for $2.29, Angus Steakburgers with bacon and cheddar 2lbs/$8.50. They even have white castle burgers, but as a name brand they are similar in price to other stores.
I get pretty much non-food items at the local Dollar stores. Cheap reading glasses/sunglasses, and I also get some junk food that isn't available at ALDI. including soft drinks and White Cheddar Popcorn. Pringles (or the Frito-Lay branded Stax). USB cables for a buck as well as some kitchen utensils, why pay significantly more for some utensils that you rarely use. I also remember getting toenail clippers from the dollar store... any where else I looked they were $4 or $5; why should you pay more than $1 for clippers? They also seem to have a decent selection of greeting cards for a buck... far less than the cost of cards elsewhere.
Also, there is a new store opening... LIDL... another discount grocer like ALDI (and also originally from Germany.) They are only recently in the local area although I have not been to one yet.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @10:47PM (8 children)
Have you tried buying "real" food and comparing the quality. I even started getting $6/lb chicken breast because the cheap (~$2 /lb) ones around here are like mutation-level huge and get dried out really easy.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @02:30AM (3 children)
I don't buy a lot of meat. What other than meat and some off-brand imitation products (e.g. Triscuit) has a noticeable drop in quality? Eggs and whole milk taste the same, vegetables taste the same unless they have been sitting around too long, etc.
As it turns out, Aldi does stock some more expensive meats, prosciutto, organic produce, and other such items. I'll have to check and see if they have the "cruelty-free" $6/lb chicken.
I would love to see low cost, high quality lab-grown meat hit the shelves. But it will probably take a decade for the technology to advance and another decade to deal with regulators and livestock lobbyists.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @03:31AM (1 child)
I've yet to notice a difference in vegetables, but it would supposedly be nutrient/mineral/contaminant content rather than directly sensible.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @03:43AM
Possibly. You could add a multivitamin.
Don't forget to cut out the microplastic-laden sea salt from your diet.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday February 18 2019, @09:31AM
I've got some motivation to regard grass-fed beef products as more-nutritious.
I could easily verify that assertion - mostly asserted by SJW's and Conspiracy Theorists - because a good friend of mine here in PDX has an MS in Nutrition - but have yet to actually do so.
I _can_ tell you that Iron from Plant Sources - "Non-Heme" - is less Bioavailable then that of Animal Sources - "Heme", including eggs but _not_ milk, milk has no Iron - but that Vitamin C increases Non-Heme's Bioavailability.
I can _also_ tell you that Dark Chocolate - but not White nor Milk! - has quite a _lot_ of Iron: one 85% Cocoa Four-Ounce Lindt bar has something like 125% of the US RDA.
So with my twice-daily Dove Dark Bar, I each an Orange!
Good Times.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Monday February 18 2019, @07:23AM (1 child)
Actually at Aldi, I really have not had any quality issues with their food.
Their fruits and vegetables are just as good as anywhere else, and yes, they even have organic fruits and veggies as well. All while being cheaper than the mainstream supermarkets.
Their meats are also fine, I have not had a problem with them. They do not have a butcher (at least none of the stores I have been in) so everything is pre-packaged frozen or refrigerated meats. I admit that I have received significantly higher quality mouth watering cuts of meat elsewhere, but I also had to pay a premium for it. At Aldi, I get a better quality for the price than at other places, but they generally do not have the high-end cuts. (i.e. you are not likely to find your pre-tenderized prime rib or suckling pig at Aldi, but what you do get there tastes fine.)
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday February 18 2019, @03:18PM
I have to say that I've started buying most of my beef from Aldi in the past couple years, and I find them consistently better than most of the standard grocery chains. You're right -- they don't have a butcher, but I disagree that they don't have "high-end cuts." They just have specific ones: you can always find rib-eye steaks or strip steaks, and they generally have certain cuts that are hard to find in most grocery stores (e.g., they almost always have skirt steak, which I quite like, but it's difficult to find elsewhere except if you go to a real butcher). Roast selection tends to be poor -- I haven't bought as many, but mostly it's chuck and some round pot roasts. Yet those are the most popular roast cuts, so it's good enough for me. (I speak from visiting several Aldi stores in a few different states, so some of this may be regional.)
But yes, they won't have "prime rib" (if you mean a rib roast), but neither do a lot of standard grocery stores except around the holidays or if you do a special order. Most times I've asked a regular grocery butcher what they have in terms of rib roasts, they look at me funny, and then perhaps tell me they can cut me a boneless one (out of the stuff they usually cut the rib eye steaks from).
Anyhow, I don't eat steak often, but these days I almost exclusively buy mine from Aldi, unless I splurge and go to a real butcher. After years of sampling "premium" steaks from grocery stores at premium prices, I usually find about a 30-50% "dud" rate -- that is, about half the time, I find the grocery steaks to be flavorless and/or with gristly fat or whatever. I paid $15/lb+ for crap.
At Aldi, I can get a somewhat thick-cut cheap ribeye and only get a 10-20% dud rate. It's still not as good as a real decent butcher, but it's a lot cheaper and I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off as much as at other grocery stores. Heck, a few months ago Aldi had prime ribeye steaks on a special buy at $15/lb., and the one I ate was among the top 5 steaks I've ever eaten in my life (and that's including some high-end steakhouses). I haven't seen that again at Aldi, but my experience has generally been positive.
I'm not going to claim Aldi stocks great meat, and yes, they don't have a huge variety. But for beef selections lately, I've been impressed compared to most stores. Other meats (chicken, pork) range from fine to pretty good. It's not going to replace a real butcher, but I'd shop for meat there over most grocery chains any day.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Monday February 18 2019, @03:02PM (1 child)
First off, if you don't want meat that's dried out, try buying a different cut. If you're getting boneless, skinless chicken breasts, you're getting lean protein -- which tends to dry out very easily. Or try cooking sous vide at a temperature significantly lower than the FDA recommends (but which is still perfectly safe, if done correctly).
Second, I find it difficult to believe that if you're truly buying the "cheap" chicken breasts that they're drying out -- because almost all the cheapest chicken breasts I see sold today tend to be injected with a huge amount of brine and broth to make them more artificially juicy. (And to jack up the price: those $2/lb breasts are probably more like $2.50/lb, but you're paying for a bunch of water and salt to be added to them.)
Third, I'm all for buying better quality meat, but do make sure you're actually getting better quality meat. "Free range" chicken can often still mean factory farms where the chickens spend their time in cramped buildings, but there's a door at the end of the building that none of the chickens actually ever go out of. "Natural" has no legally defined meaning. "No antibiotics" or whatever often is put on packaging where legally they couldn't inject those things into the animals anyway.
Bottom line: be sure you're investigating the place where your meat is actually coming from, if you want to pay for "quality." Otherwise, that pack of "natural, fresh, humane" etc. chicken you're paying $6/lb. for may be effectively the same as the $2/lb. chicken. Heck, check the package... maybe your expensive chicken is injected with brine, and that's why it's more juicy!
(You may know all of this -- but generally speaking, labels lie. Food producers will find just about any way of slapping a misleading term on a package if it can sell better and/or they can charge more for it...)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @04:35PM
I have bought both at the same time and cooked side by side, it is like they are from different animals.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @02:21AM
I am interested in giving Lidl a shot, but for now, it's Aldi all the way (with some other stores if I need something out of bounds of the limited inventory).
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @03:09AM (2 children)
There is a difference in quality between nailclippers. Cheap ones work, but good ones work /well/.
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Monday February 18 2019, @07:33AM (1 child)
I am a 6'11" middle aged male with size 15 (US) (I think 49 EU size) feet.
I want nail clippers that cut my nail off and not leave something to become ingrown. I do not need (unused) built in emory boards, or a way to leverage extra power (I have enough hand strength) to cut. I do not care if it is gentle enough to not ruin painted nails or ruin designs. (I am male and these things do not apply to me.) In fact, with my size, I use toe nail clippers on my fingers as well.
Thats all I need to hear.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:52PM
Do yourself a favor, and drop $20 on a tweezerman set. No emory boards or nail-cleaning hooks, but high quality materials produced to tolerance with good QC with a design that makes it easy to get off the whole nail (they don't curve the blade and make it hard to use). Plus, you'll never bend them when your toenail turns out to be tougher than shitty chink steel.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday February 18 2019, @09:22AM (1 child)
What works _really_ well at Grocery Outlet is the stuff that's close to its Sell-By Date, so _every_ time I go there, I examine every item I could _conceivably_ want then note it's expiry.
That leads to my regularly purchasing ten-dollar Brie for $1.99. The Mind Simply Reels.
At G-O, one must take _great_ care to note the "Their Price" on each items' shelf price label. In general "Their Price" is Safeway's (the American Safeway; I'm unclear whether it's affiliated with the UK Safeway.) If there is _no_ Their Price, then "Our Price" is _greatly_ inflated.
For otherwise normal prices, _if_ you have wheels then you should either write each of G-O's and Winco's price in one of those Pocket Notebooks I keep going on about it, or in your device's Notes App.
Keep those prices up-to-date and Ye Shall Save!
Do I hear an Amen?
AMEN!
Thus It Is Written.
However, if you do _not_ have a car, then you must consider how far you'll have to walk in combination for how heavy each item is. Thus I always buy milk, oranges, bananas and potatoes at G-O.
There are also concerns for Animal Cruelty, so I only buy Organic Free Range Eggs - Eggs Like To Strut Their Stuff To You Know - Organic Bananas and Organic Meats - to the extent they have any in stock.
There's also the volume occupied by each item, thus I always get bread and English Muffins at G-O. If I'm flat busted, I buy a dozen moderately tasty bagels at G-O, but when I'm - never - flushed, I pay $$$$ for far-tastier fresh-baked bagels at WinCo.
I've been asymptotically approaching all these ideals more or less just one step at a time since three years _before_ I got my HUD Permanent Assistive Housing apartment. After my having experienced desperate sorrow at having shopped at G-O and WinCo Foods in North-East Portland - sorrow because _none_ of my fellow homeless ever went so far - after that I'd go out of my way to shop at the Downtown Safeway - $$$$ but good selection - or North-West Portland's Fred Meyer - OMIGOD Selection, some prices are for California Hipsters and Lumbersexuals, some are for us tempest-tossed huddled masses.
(To This Very Day I Remain Yearning To Breathe Free.)
I Swear I'm Not Making This Up:
Damn near the very finest shopping of any sort is to be had on Burnside in North-West; the very finest are on NW Burnside's side streets.
NW Burnside's Fred Meyer is _truly_ a sight to behold, as the half of the store closest to Burnside has a _vast_ array of - mostly local - Craft Beer, Fine Wines, an Honest To G-d Sushi Bar, a Mother Fucking Bistro, and what Corporate Juggernaut could be complete without it's very own In-Store Starbucks, a $$$$ hot and cold Deli and the like.
The Mind Simply Reels.
Fred Meyer is a subsidiary of Kroger; scout around for a Kroger subsidiary in your home town.
Oh, Yeah: F-M has a $$$$ $$$$ $$$$ $$$$ Olive Bar.
My _Fuck_, Does It Have To Be So HARD?
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @01:52PM
Yes, if you don't want to get hosed, you need to remember or record prices. Going by the $/oz is also helpful since you can quickly compare different sizes. Make sure they didn't print mistaken math, however.
Carry a backpack, fill that backpack. If it somehow ends up at 40+ lbs, man up and walk it off. Optionally carry one more reusable bag with lighter items that could get squashed (soft bread, eggs).
I prefer Cruelty-Prone eggs.
We can remove the cruelty all in one go with lab-grown meats (and eggs?). Until then, I'm not sparing an extra dime for slightly coddled animal slaves and misleading labels [certifiedhumane.org].
Olives are expensive (even more so at the bar) and have relatively low nutrition and calories. If it's not an on-sale jar or needed for a recipe, don't get it.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by richtopia on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:01PM
But there are also items that are only available for more elsewhere. They may not be main brand or inferior in quality, but for items such as hand soap, who cares?
Reading the article it is picking on dollar stores for out competing local supermarkets. I wonder if this could be an opportunity for a revival of the classic grocer: if Dollar Tree provides sufficient home goods and non-perishables, then I would be tempted to open a produce only grocer next door. Or perhaps a dedicated butcher shop.
I suspect the razor thin margins of the food distribution industry would mean anyone owning a butcher or grocer would be forced to work for less than minimum wage. With the article discussing poverty stricken communities, price is critical.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:39PM (5 children)
There was one in Dartmouth Nova Scotia that sold packs of three hardbound pocket notebooks. They made a real difference to me.
Bonita and I sometimes drove an hour from Truro just for those notebooks, as I've never been able to remember anyone's first names so I write them down.
I'd write phone numbers. I'd see a product in some other store that I didn't have the cash for so I'd write it down so I could buy it later.
I'd write down URLs.
Here's your market opportunity:
_I_ would certainly beat a path to your homepage!
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1) by Moof123 on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:57PM (3 children)
You drove an hour for dollar items?! At half a dollar a mile, each way, I am sure hope you stocked up on a lot of stuff to justify such a huge expediture of time and ammortized vehicle costs.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:05PM (2 children)
They were worth a whole lot more to me than thirty-three cents apiece.
I have never been able to find hardbound pocket notebooks _anywhere_ else!
Office Depot sells paper "bound" pocket notebooks, but they last less than a week in my pocket.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:45PM (1 child)
Did you look on Amazon?
https://www.amazon.com/Moleskine-Classic-Cover-Notebook-Pocket/dp/8883701003/ [amazon.com]
https://www.amazon.com/Notebook-Morenitor-Leather-Hardcover-Journal/dp/B07F9MT5HZ/ [amazon.com]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday February 18 2019, @09:55AM
Doubtlessly _well_ below Naugahyde!!
I really _am_ having a good belly-roll. THNAX:
Observe:
HOWEVER.
I think I've seen these at Powell's City of Books [powells.com] in Oldtown Portland, about a quarter mile from where I work at NedSpace [nedspace.com] in Downtown.
I'd far prefer your Moleskin option - I _do_ hope they torture real Moles to fucking death, I've had them in my own front yard :-/ - but a little pricey for me just now. But I can set myself up with your Morenitor option _tomorrow_ with just one - now more songs! - thirty-minute set!
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by RandomFactor on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:44PM
Amazon has them, but they start around $7-$8 for decent looking ones, flimsy covers are less.
Ebay is a bit more reasonable coming out to about $3 each in a lot of 20 - Bulk Lot 20 Small Black Hardcover Pocket Notebook Journals 96 Pages 4.5x3" Ruled [ebay.com]
Might be worth it if you go through them.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:55PM (6 children)
Is the reduction of life expectancy caused by the lack of good food, or the high doses of lead certain members of the community consume there?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by RandomFactor on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:18PM (2 children)
Diet is certainly a factor in longevity (as is chomping on lead paint chips)
However, I found ascribing this difference strongly to dollar stores disingenuous on the part of the author, she attempts to paint a long standing reality (difference in average life expectancy of two demographics) as if it were primarily caused by a relatively recent phenomenon (dollar stores affecting nutritious food supply)
There are many factors that affect average lifespan that need to be controlled for (e.g. infant mortality, drugs, crime, genetics, health care, sanitation...) before you can determine the relative effect of one (nutrition) between two very different groups.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:53PM
Whoosh
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday February 18 2019, @09:24AM
I Rest My Mother Fucking Case.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:20PM
Or it could be you know... genetics.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:40PM (1 child)
Maybe it is from the blatant bigotry certain members of our society show towards others?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:16PM
lmao! the bigotry!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:05PM (23 children)
How come "the poor" don't grow their own? How hard it is to have a small garden for lettuce, peppers, tomatoes? I've had peppers in middle of winter near chicago in an apartment with northern windows... if you have a house, it's really a no brainer to grow your own vegetables.
Then there is also the flee market. Grow vegetables, sell the rest if you want.
But yes, 1st world problems..... I've been in some pretty poor places in the world and there is no food deserts even if local fancy restaurants only had chicken and rice. You can always find fresh vegetables, even in places where people live on $3/day.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:11PM
Consider that Food Stamps can be used to purchase food plant seeds.
In Alaska, you can buy bullets with Food Stamps. One bullet, one moose if that's your staple food.
I'll be planting indoors sometime soon.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:38PM (5 children)
Shouldn't the mega farms be able to produce veggies at a lower cost per unit than someone at home getting some seeds, 1 bag of fertilizer, probably watering them manually, etc.? Economy of scale.
Even some kind of urban co-op or community garden effort might work better.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:03PM
You forget the downtime. Plants grow all day whether you are there or not. They just require a little bit of time few times a week. And that's the expensive things, like salads. So you can plant your own salad for $0.001 or you can buy one for $0.50 or more, with extra effort trying to find it. Or you can pay someone else to do it for you.
So unless the poor want to work some shit job so they they pay someone else to farm or actually want to relax and grow their own food ... you know, not all labor is suppose to pay you benjamins directly ... but it sure saves you a few.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:36PM (3 children)
FWIW, in the 1960's my family grew multiple vegetables in the back yard in the California bay area (optimal climate). My father figured out that it cost us about twice as much to eat that way, though admittedly the quality was better. But we did it anyway because my mother wanted to garden.
Seeds weren't a significant part of the expense. And labor wasn't counted at all.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:04PM (2 children)
Hahah, yep. I grow hot peppers. They are .99/lb at the store. Compared to buying soil, fertilizers and other odds and ends just to get less than that lb of yield its a losing proposition. If I had a lot of land it would maybe sort of work. Growing has given me a new found respect for farmers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:19PM (1 child)
yeah. i have a large garden and it's overgrown with grass and weeds and has a couple kale plants and arugula that just can't be killed. besides, that, gardening has been a pain in the ass. of course, i haven't had the money to get the soil right so i think it would be easier if i could dump a bunch of money into it right at first. either way though, getting good at pest, soil, water, sun, etc management is non trivial.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:58PM
You're thinking too hard. Do the amount of work you want to do, and be smart about the rest. Let the weeds grow until you need to harvest - predatory bugs and pollinators love weeds. Plant root systems are not all the same either, they each are more effective with certain compounds than others, and dump the excess in the soil around them, which is part of why "companion planting" works. As long the plants grow, don't worry about the soil, just keep adding organic material and it will get better with time. If you're not aiming to be a farmer, there's no need at all to manage your plants like one.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:34PM (10 children)
That was one of my arguments for people on welfare: don't let them sit and watch the young and the restless. Instead, get them community gardening and such. Grow a wack load of veggies, teach them how to pickle/preserve, etc.
Teach self-worth, community, hard work, helping others....
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM (9 children)
And make them pay for it**, 'cause this is how you keep the profits flowing!
** given that "grow your own" is an expensive proposition when compared with buying them from agribusiness.
The values you mentioned? Those are the ones over the survival level, with disposable time and money to spare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:06AM (8 children)
How expensive it is depends on the circumstances. If you have even a small yard, water is cheap where you live, and you have access to free organic matter to mulch your soil, it can be very cheap.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @08:30AM (7 children)
In my case, water services are expensive (e.g. sewage services charged based on consumption), weather is hot and has been quite dry for the last 2 years.
But even letting aside the costs, most of the crops tend to ripe at the same time. The result is 3weeks of eating your own and buying the same produce for the rest of the year: letting aside the 'deli/gourmet' factors, grow-your-own is a hobby, not a way to eat healthier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37AM (5 children)
I invite you to find someone's grandmother and learn the wonders of the mason jar.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @09:58AM (4 children)
1. Grandmother veggie-patch > any suburban area backyard of the nowadays. Which means quantities absolutely not worth spending a day to put in mason jars and sterilize.
2. I have a veggie-patch myself. Unfortunately, no basement/cellar - which means that when a produce is in season, the weather is too hot to conserve it (except for long boiled things like home-made jams - what's the point to spend an entire day doing it when the stuff available at the supermarket has the same 'healthy food' value?). Any pickle will ferment in 2-3 days and go ballistic outta mason jar.
At the best, I can buy yogurt ferment and do a batch from one day to the other and then finish drinking it the day after.
(Kimtchi you ask? Riiight, cause digging holes in the backyard - assuming you have one - is something that you should do at 30+C for your health)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @02:10PM (2 children)
I'll agree that processing what you grow probably isn't going to fill a lot of jars in one cycle. I have only really processed storebought produce and farm-picked apples (you pick it yourself, it's cheaper). YMMV of course.
I think if you do the math, homemade jams/jellies/etc. can be a lot cheaper than storebought. For example, I bought an 8 lb bag of oranges, a couple sacks of sugar, and some habeneros, and made well over a gallon of spicy orange marmalade (a bit sauce-like thickness due to lazy). Then I used that to make orange chicken and other goodness for a long time.
If you sterilized it, it should not do so. If you didn't and you suspect a lot of gas build up will happen, you could use a special lid such as this one [amazon.com] to release gas. I actually created some grommeted lids myself so I can insert airlocks into wide mouth mason jar lids.
Yeah, most people don't do that any more. You can make [soylentnews.org] kimchi [soylentnews.org] or sauerkraut in a mason jar or plastic bucket. Time and money spent is relatively low in my opinion, and gives you a very tasty (if not traditionally made) product. The 5 gallon bucket and airlock that I used are not necessary; you can make it easily in a regular mason jar.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37PM (1 child)
If you sterilize it, it's dead, Jim. No longer health-food.
What I'm after is pickles in the lactic acid resulted from the slow fermentation of sugars in veggies - sauerkraut style. These are what I grew with, the vinegar ones just poke holes in my stomach lining.
For the brine pickled, if the temperature is too high (over 15-18C), the colonizing lactobacillus is not the species I want - it will transform your veggies into a foul smelling mush, no matter if you drain the CO2 or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @09:43PM
I'm not saying I did that. Just covering all the bases.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @03:37PM
You've obviously never tasted my great aunt's pear preserves. No better tasting substance has ever graced a jar in any quantity. Easily worth dealing with all the wasps a pear tree attracts even for a single serving a year. Would still be worth it even if it attracted bears, crocodiles, and hipsters as well as wasps.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday February 18 2019, @05:01PM
Plant in waves (succession planting?): Get seeds going, a few this week, more next week, more the week after, so they don't ripen at the same time.
Square foot gardening: pack that garden FULL!
Plant stuff that ripens early and late so you always have something you're eating.
Square foot gardening is amazing: stop thinking like a farmer. Who needs to plant in rows when you don't use a harvester.
My asparagus should be prime eating this year: gonna harvest the HELL out of that baby! :)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:35PM (1 child)
Because the poor are poor because they are lazy. If they had enough gumption to grow their own food, they would also have enough gumption be able to work their way out of poverty. But it is more fun to watch Kanye on Dancing With Stars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:30PM
They are poor because they were born with access to wheels which makes them lazy. Get rid of wheels, get rid of walls, and above all get rid of DRUMPF.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:46PM
Yeah? How come agriculture is a high cost, high risk profession then?
Without constant vigilance, your plants are going to suffer in droughts, getting eaten by deer, crowded out by weeds, and preyed upon by all and sundry insects.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by etherscythe on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:00PM
Here in the south, "The Poor" often don't have a good window to grow anything, unless they're rural. You'd have to take down the aluminum foil or the packing blankets they've tacked over the windows to keep running the air conditioning from destroying their budget with the poor insulation. They also don't have a yard for a garden.
Ironically, in my area there's a Family Dollar that just closed. I won't miss the trucks delivering late at night right on the other side of the fence from me.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM
As discussed in a recent SN article about urban farming, growing your own food is generally a terrible idea that is extremely expensive and does not really work.
Most poor people don't have large yards where they can make gardens, and they don't have time to tend them.
The inherent problem with food deserts is that grocery stores are just not profitable in certain areas. It is hardly the fault of the dollar stores, how dare they sell products at low prices to extremely cost conscious buyers! No, the problem is that the grocery store model is based on buyers coming to the store for produce and buying other things while they are there, essentially focusing on variety over price, while in food deserts location and price are more important than variety to the people who live there. So the stores that emphasize price win out over the stores that emphasize variety.
Requiring stores that sell a certain amount of food to also stock produce is reasonable, but what if the buyers don't buy it? I buy a lot of packaged food, not because I can't afford produce or can't get to a grocery store, but because I just don't like to cook. If you are working two jobs and raising two or three kids, you might just not have time to cook.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:13PM (3 children)
Why did they refuse to put this WaPo article on the WaPo site? Because they didn't want to clutter it up with sources?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:41PM (2 children)
It's a reprint of an article on WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/as-dollar-stores-move-into-cities-residents-see-a-steep-downside/2019/02/15/b3676cbe-2f09-11e9-8ad3-9a5b113ecd3c_story.html [washingtonpost.com]
STLtoday might not have an annoying paywall though.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:33PM (1 child)
Thanks, so it is one of the "pay if you have viewed x articles" ones then.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @09:25AM
Firefox to my great joy - I think it is otherwise 7H3 5UX0R - enables one to banninate cookies by domain.
So now I'm ripping off every last journalist that Walks The Earth, as well as their Cousins.
Good Times.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by SomeGuy on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:23PM (6 children)
This almost sounds like a FUD piece paid for by Publix - where most customers eat expensive steaks and drink wine for every meal - or Walmart where most customers buy 9000 pound "family sized" bags of Human Chow.
I have a nice little Dollar Tree nearby. They seem to position themselves mostly as a place for party supplies but also have some office supplies, some basic health/beauty stuff. They don't pretend to be a grocery store at all, but have lots of snack items and a small freezer section. None of it is "healthy" stuff, but it is not supposed to be. If you are throwing an office party, this is the place to go to get balloons, cards, decorations, a few large 2.75-liters sodas and an assortment of snacks.
Now, it is mind boggling how they can offer a generic box of cookies for only $1 when fucking Pubelix wants $3.50 for almost the exact same name brand thing. For many products, I can just buy a small pack of something for $1.00 where elsewhere I would be forced to buy a huge family pack to get about the same per-unit price. Obviously there is an obscene markup and the dollar stores can somehow afford to keep costs low. I don't know, perhaps their CEO doesn't buy a dozen yachts a day?
Anyway, it just sounds like some larger sores are getting all butthurt.
If they are so fucking concerned about poverty, how about they help people find jobs or help create American jobs? Yea, I didn't think so.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:30PM (1 child)
I like Bachelor Chow, myself. Mixing some water in makes a nice gravy. Helps choke it down. That's good eatin'.
(Score: 3, Informative) by stretch611 on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:46PM
I'm always a sucker for Futurama references.
https://theinfosphere.org/Bachelor_Chow [theinfosphere.org]
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by number11 on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:37PM (1 child)
So one of the issues is, the supermarket can't compete with the dollar store on some goods, because the supermarket uses a higher profit margin on those goods to subsidize fresh goods. Is there something preventing the supermarket lowering prices on those staples and raising prices on fresh stuff to cover their costs? Yeah, I wish produce was cheaper, but it's innately expensive to handle due to spoilage.
I dunno. near where I live, there's a 2 block area that has a Dollar Tree, Target, Aldi's, and a regional grocery superstore chain. In the summer, farmer's markets (fresh, but the farmers track the supermarket's prices). Aldi just moved in, and we're hoping that the competition will drive their neighbor's prices down. My food shopping is mostly at Aldi's, though produce is fresher across the street, and I'll occasionally drive 10mi to a liquidator supermarket. Their "regular" prices are so-so small supermarket, but the prices can be great on stuff that didn't catch on in the market, is mfgr overstock, or is near/past its expiration date (most things except Nutrasweet and produce are just fine for months past). Pickled okra, chips, tubs of potato/egg/ham salad from a local packer, food service packs of deli ham, eggs, etc. Our dollar stores don't sell produce (and as a consequence of local ordinance, can't take food stamps), but occasionally have good special purchases. Some of the dollar store food is cheap, some overpriced.
But for poor people, access is more important than price, a dollar store on the next block trumps a supermarket that's 15 blocks (and 2 bus rides, or a taxi) away. Not everybody has a car.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:54PM
Grocery stores are always a bad place to buy 'other goods'. They do not have the volume to make up for it. For example you are better off buying a spatula at a home goods store than a grocery store for the same name brand item. Almost always. Grocery have always been charging for convenience on those items. This goes back as far as I can remember.
Most of them do not even own the goods on the shelves. Take a super walmart. Do you think walmart owns pretty much anything on those shelves? No, walmart is a large company that rents out shelf space and dictates what can be on those shelves. The companies own those items. If it does not sell walmart does not take any loss. They just ship it back and the company that makes the item eats it.
Almost all grocery stores run on this model. Pepsi stocks the pepsi shelves, coke stocks the coke shelves. Hostess stocks their shelves, etc, etc.
If they have items they can not compete on they need to talk to their vendors. They are the ones who mostly control the price. The stores have a bit of give and take. But the margin for them is pretty thin. Walmart can say 'we want xyz at price Y on our shelves or shove off' and get away with it because of how big they are (they are bullies in the market). But other stores not as much.
Now some stuff they do take care of themselves. Usually fresh produce. But even that is dictated by their vendors.
My exp in dollar stores is there are some bargains and some bit where it was higher. Not much though. Most of it was pretty much 1:1 per oz/item cost as all of the local stores.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:38PM
The dollar stores (of one name or another) that I've been in didn't have *any* fresh food. 7-11 was far superior, and that's hardly a grocery store.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @10:41PM
Human Chow... Why does no one actually make this? It sounds like a good idea.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by ilPapa on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:28PM (2 children)
Here in my little California town, the "dollar store" (actually called the "99 Cent Store" has a nice produce section that is almost entirely organic. It's excellent and incredibly cheap. Often, you'll see the exact same products as Whole Foods, from the same producers, for 1/4 the price (or less). I buy bags of avocados for 99 cents there, for example (it's right next to my regular grocery store, but I'll stop in the 99 cent store to see what they've got.
The only difference is that the 99 Cent Store produce is riper and closer to expiration (but never past expiration). So, you have to use it quicker. You can't just buy a head of cauliflower and let it sit in the drawer in the fridge for 2 weeks before using it.
All the processed foods there are a ripoff though, but you shouldn't be eating those anyway.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:41PM
Sure, rub it in everyone's faces :-) Coming from *anywhere* else in the US, the whole of mid-to-northern California is like a giant cornucopia (now that the rains are back for a while). My friends tell me Silicon Valley used to be some of the most fertile farmland in the US.
You can't explain how bountiful California is to its natives -- they have to go to other states themselves, look around, and say, "This is all?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @06:15PM
In Kansas, usually avocados are $2 per single avacado
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:20PM (8 children)
Thier purposes is to soak up poors food stamps on garbage like soda, chips and candy. Which is another product produced from overproduced corn. Need to make Americans drink all that high fructose corn syrup somehow.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by HiThere on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:43PM (7 children)
Actually, their purpose is to sell cheap junk of any sort at a fixed price. But the fixed price is low enough that they can't generally handle anything perishable. A great place to buy greeting cards, clay trinkets, etc., but the only food they can normally carry is durable stuff. Canned food, dried food, chips, soda, etc.
So as the the question at the top, they are both. Considered as a grocery story they are destroyers of their customers, considered as dime stores, they are benefactors. But perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to sell food.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday February 18 2019, @12:46AM (4 children)
Who gets to decide what dollar stores should be allowed to sell and their customers allowed to buy?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday February 18 2019, @05:10AM (3 children)
Local zoning boards. If you have zoning regulations, that that kind of rule could easily be a part.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 18 2019, @05:32AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Monday February 18 2019, @07:21AM (1 child)
It's just the standard "I know better than you what you should do" behavior from academics and the 'intelligentsia'.
It doesn't work, because people are contrary bastards who won't behave how the academics think they should.
Anytime someone is advocating that sort of rule you can assume they are a paternalistic arsehole with a control fetish.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday February 18 2019, @05:34PM
You're probably right. One of the real reasons that various fast foods are popular is they don't take time and effort to prepare. For some people that's the difference between eating and not eating.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday February 18 2019, @01:30AM (1 child)
There it is. Substitutable 'food' like this -- edible food products that are better marketed, more shelf-stable, manufacturable more places (and in semi-closed systems), ready-to-eat, and require less maintenance (spraying with fresh water, etc) -- would likely displace live human-consumable/sustaining plants just based on those advantages. Plants are going to either need better marketing or some sort of affirmative action re: availability to make them available to everyone.
Food banks bridge this gap to some extent, but they could benefit from a lot more marketing too, I bet. Maybe Michelle Obama can tell us more about the larger-scale economic dynamics of this situation.
(Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Monday February 18 2019, @05:13AM
"to some extent" doesn't cover easily perishable food. Food banks can handle potatoes, beans, etc., but they don't do well with lettuce, grapes, etc.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by kazzie on Sunday February 17 2019, @08:06PM (2 children)
Here in the UK, our pound stores are a slightly different animal to the Dollar Stores I recall over there, and don't have such a vast range of products. They do carry lots of chocolate, crisps and snacks, but not much in the way of general foodstuffs. Some have started selling perishables such as milk and bread in the past few years, but they only have a piddly turnover of these lines. The dominant UK supermarket chains (Tesco, Morrison, Asda (Walmart), and Sainsbury), who also run their own chains of convenience stores (Seven-Eleven style), are far more threatened by European-style discount supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl. Most penny-watchers do their food shop there, but they offer a good selection of fresh produce, so TFA's concerns aren't really relevant. (Some will go to a pound shop for select items, but not the main food shop.)
The recent years have seen a lot of non-price-point discount homeware retailers move into selling food: chains such as Home Bargains, Poundstretcher, B&M Bargains. This strikes me as being a mirror image of the big supermarkets all increasing their non-food selection over the past decade. There's no natural growth in their markets at all, all they can do is try to steal market share from others.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by stormwyrm on Monday February 18 2019, @02:08AM
Similarly, across the Pacific, in Japan, there are ¥100 stores (roughly $1 at today's exchange rates) such as Daiso, which have spilled over into neighbouring regions like the Philippines (where the ¥100 has become ₱88). Just as with these pound stores you speak of, they don't really have general foodstuffs but you can get chocolates, crisps, candy, and snacks there. I've never seen perishables such as milk or bread in any such store, either in Japan or in the Philippines. The closest I've seen to those are canned beverages, which are only slightly cheaper than from the ubiquitous vending machines at every street corner. What foodstuffs are available are vastly outnumbered by non-food items: household goods such as cleaning brushes, simple tools like screwdrivers and wrenches, cooking utensils, office supplies, children's toys, personal care stuff like nail trimmers, and so forth. Just about everything is ¥100 (¥105 with the tax), with very few exceptions, which is generally a reasonable deal compared to getting such things from elsewhere. A lot of these items are not available elsewhere and are genuinely useful.
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 18 2019, @05:35AM
Can't steal customers unless you're doing something better. That's economic growth as well.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Sunday February 17 2019, @10:35PM
I can't speak to where they are in cities, but the dollar stores and Casey's convenience stores have been a definite improvement in many rural small towns like the one I live in.
You might have had a small IGA or other independent grocery, but often not. A gas station, but not a convenience store with pizza, donuts, and certainly not staying open nearly as late (11 pm or midnight for Casey's). With these, you have admittedly low budget items within walking distance that you would have had to drive in order to get to or wait till morning before. They also tend to have ATMs which are often not present in a isolated rural town of 300 or so.
They provide this to the surrounding farm areas too. So, it's a mile or three to get to rather than 10 to 20 miles to a larger town. In town, it's often the difference between having to spend scarce money on a car and being able to walk to a store for those on fixed incomes, unable to work etc. as there is rarely public transportation.
On the other hand, they do tend to create a monoculture as they have economies of scale that independents don't have. But, let's be honest, a lot of the small independent stores in rural areas were never up to the standard that their reputation was, and they generally paid low wages and had little benefits. When you're doing business off such a small (and often very lower middle class at best) clientele, there wasn't a whole lot of profit being made there.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:22PM
But considering free market economic factors directly pressure these places out of business, maybe this is the kind of thing local/city/state governments or grants can help with? They have the size and scope to handle subcontracting, volume and distribution at this scale and can absorb some spoilage losses.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @12:35AM (15 children)
Dollar stores are just providing what their customers want at a price they can afford. I have plenty of poor neighbors and they refuse to drive the extra block to a grocery store even though the food's better because they can't afford it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by Tokolosh on Monday February 18 2019, @03:55AM (6 children)
Why do we want to make food more expensive for poor people? And what paternalistic arrogance to presume to know what is best for others and claim the right to force them to do our bidding? Good grief.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @05:08AM (5 children)
Thank you Mr. Marx but that'll be enough of your nonsense. Prices for food are set so that those producing the food can feed their own families. If they can't do that they stop producing food at all and look for employment elsewhere. Then those who are still producing food charge even more because a lower supply with the same demand makes the food that is produced more valuable. You should have read an Economics For Dummies book instead of socialist idiocy.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:42AM (4 children)
I can't work out whether I am missing the point, you are being sarcastic, or Ari has hijacked your account.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @09:39AM (3 children)
The first one.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @10:04AM (2 children)
Okaaay. But I would have thought tokolosh's post was pretty much the opposite of marxism.
Also, prices aren't set to keep farmers in business, they are set to maximize profit by every entity that handles that food between the farm and you picking it up in the store.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @03:41PM (1 child)
Which is saying the same thing except spread across more links in the chain. Maximized profit is only very rarely achieved on anything by charging as much as you can possibly get anyone to pay. It's usually achieved by charging as much as you can get nearly everyone to pay. Which is then reflected in the things said food producer is forced to buy to produce your food in the first place. Economics isn't a simple system. There are an insane amount of both negative and positive feedbacks even in the most simple aspects of it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 19 2019, @02:15AM
Yes I know that. I was responding to your assertion that the price was set to keep farmers in business. That is not true, prices are set to maximize profits. If a farmer goes out of business, the distributors will just make it up by jacking up margins on the smaller supply. I've seen it done, where distributors will drive a few farmers into bankruptcy, then point at that as an excuse to raise retail prices, while still screwing the rest of the farmers under contract as hard as they can.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @04:06AM (7 children)
Citation needed. The fact that they are buying it only proves the second part of your comment - what they can afford. If we switched from subsidizing HFCS to subsidizing nutrition, how many of the poor would switch their buying habits?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @05:10AM (6 children)
How about we don't subsidize anything and let the people and their wallets pick the winners and losers?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @03:17PM (1 child)
Apparently they have not been out to a 'rural' area.
The stores that are there (you know the mom and pops), are usually terrible. They are stores that have been around for a long time. Their prices are wildly higher than what it should be. That is the scarcity part of economics people like to ignore. So those places take advantage of them.
Price in these sorts of stores is about convenience. I live in the middle of a large city. If I goto my local grocery story and decide to buy a knife I will pay nearly double what I could get it for somewhere else (ironically across the parking lot). That is convenience. In a rural setting you can drive 40 miles and get cheaper products. But is the savings of say 10 bucks worth a tank of gas and 2 hours of your time? So if a store shows up and competes better on price they will win. "Hey this place is mostly cheaper on everything for a few things higher" you will tend to shop there. That is what the dollar store is. They are a chain store. They can buy 8 billion of something and get a better deal than the mom and pop that buys 2 of something. Chain stores are always hard to compete against. This has been going on for a long time. Sears used to be the one everyone feared.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @03:44PM
Most people have very non-diverse life experiences and don't understand even those very well, yes.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:39PM (3 children)
Because the free market is purely reactive. You want to make the decision to grow enough vegetables high in folic acid before you see the birth defects show up. Plus weather has shown itself to be remarkably resistant to the invisible hand of the market, so if you want plenty of nutritious food to be available in all conditions, you want to encourage a supply level that in all but the worse growing conditions could result in supply exceeding demand. And if you want to do that year after year, you need to make sure those farmers get paid enough despite supply exceeding demand or they'll drop out and in years of bad growing conditions you'll have demand exceeding supply. Food shortages have a profound impact on social stability.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 19 2019, @12:54AM (2 children)
Your argument is not a bad one in a world of individual farmers. In a world of corporate farms it doesn't hold up though. Large corporations have the means to assume the risks themselves without undue hardship, so they should.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 19 2019, @01:13AM (1 child)
They have the means but not the motive.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 19 2019, @02:03AM
The motive is you stop subsidizing them.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.