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posted by martyb on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:28AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the what's-the-catch? dept.

Apple announces Apple Card credit card

At Apple's "show time" services event today, it announced a new Apple Card credit card, promising to improve things about the credit card experience with simpler applications, no fees, lower interest rates, and better rewards.

To get an Apple Card, users will be able to sign up on their iPhone in the Apple Wallet app and get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay is accepted "within minutes." Customers will also be able to track purchases, check balances, and see when their bill is due right from the app. There will be a physical titanium card, too, but there's no credit card number, CVV, expiration date, or signature. All of that authorization information is stored directly in the Apple Wallet app.

Apple also says that it'll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across categories like "food and drink" or "shopping." [...] Like many of Apple's products, privacy is a big push here. "Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it," said Jennifer Bailey, VP of Apple Pay. All of the spending tracking and other information is stored directly on the device, not Apple's servers. The company also promises that "Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and advertising."

Other companies have offered 3-4% cash back for certain purchases.

Also at Ars Technica.

See also: Apple's 2%-cash-back credit-card rewards are interesting, but I'm convinced people are overlooking the best part
Apple's new credit card holds a lot of promise, but read the fine print before signing up
Tim Cook says Apple Card is a game changer. Experts are not so sure
Apple's move into banking raises the bar for fintech, traditional credit cards


Original Submission

Related Stories

Now a Senator is Investigating the Sexist Apple Card Interest Rate Debacle 17 comments

A few days ago, Jamie Heinemeier Hansson went public with the observation that Apple Card gives better interest rates to husbands than to wives. Several sites have since picked up the story and now it has caught the attention of the US Senate.

I care about transparency and fairness. It's why I was deeply annoyed to be told by AppleCard representatives, "It's just the algorithm," and "It's just your credit score." I have had credit in the US far longer than David. I have never had a single late payment. I do not have any debts. David and I share all financial accounts, and my very good credit score is higher than David's. I had a career and was successful prior to meeting David, and while I am now a mother of three children — a "homemaker" is what I am forced to call myself on tax returns — I am still a millionaire who contributes greatly to my household and pays off credit in full each month. But AppleCard representatives did not want to hear any of this. I was given no explanation. No way to make my case.

From Gizmodo: Now a Senator Is Investigating the Sexist Apple Card Debacle

Wyden has lately taken up the bailiwick in fighting algorithmic bias. In April, he and Senator Corey Booker introduced the Algorithmic Accountability Act, which would obligate companies to assess their decision-making systems and training data "for impacts on accuracy, fairness, bias, discrimination, privacy and security." The bill has yet to move forward.

Earlier on SN:
Maybe Don't Keep Your Apple Card in a Leather Wallet, Apple Warns (2019)
Apple Unveils... a Titanium Credit Card (2019)


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:37AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:37AM (#820423)

    "Siri, buy me a top notch Android phone so I can replace you and my iPhone XS."
    "A notch at the top of your phone? That sounds ugly. Buying you glasses and charging them to your Apple Card."

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:55AM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:55AM (#820429)

    Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, and how much you paid for it

    This is obviously a complete lie. The entire payment service is administered by Apple, and there's no way to do it without knowing who to transfer money from, and who to transfer money to.

    If you called up Apple Pay's tech support, and told them you believed there was a fraudulent transaction on your account, you can be certain that they'd pull up the transaction history, which would show the date, amount, and merchant of every transaction you made in the last month. (Because if they didn't, they would be in violation of credit card consumer protection laws.)

    Citation that verifies this: https://sensorstechforum.com/new-apple-pay-privacy-method/ [sensorstechforum.com]

    The purchase amount, the time and the place of the financial operation are still known to Apple

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:25AM (1 child)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:25AM (#820458) Journal

      This is obviously a complete lie.

      Well, they have to lie. I mean, look at it from their point of view. They have a business to run. /s

      --
      Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:06PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:06PM (#820638) Journal

        It can't be a lie. Apple said it. Thus it MUST be true.

        Have you not made your annual pilgrimage to Apple's WWDC to hear the messiah um, I mean his successor Tim Cook speak the holy words? Tell you what products to buy? How to Think Different?

        --
        What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Mykl on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:40AM (3 children)

      by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:40AM (#820467)

      This bears further scrutiny, but I note that your citation is an article about the original Apple Pay from 2014. Now they may still be using the same tech, but I will allow for the possibility of a change in their back-end processes. It does seem a strange thing to directly lie about, after all.

      Your point re: protection laws etc remains valid.

      Perhaps the spokesperson was saying that "Apple" doesn't see your transaction details, but perhaps "Apple Payment Administration Corp" does? If so, that's pretty weasely words. More information required.

      In any case, I do believe (based on their track record for privacy to date) that Apple will keep this data private and not sell it to the highest bidder.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:18AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:18AM (#820530)

        This These bears further scrutiny

        FTFY. Love those bears, yeah.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:08PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:08PM (#820642) Journal

          The best way to invite further scrutiny is to bare.

          --
          What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
          • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:18PM

            by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:18PM (#820837)

            Does not apply if you're a guy over 300 pounds.
            Noticed and pointed at, but surely not scrutinized by anyone not wearing a uniform.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Whoever on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:20AM (1 child)

      by Whoever (4524) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:20AM (#820477) Journal

      This is obviously a complete lie. The entire payment service is administered by Apple, and there's no way to do it without knowing who to transfer money from, and who to transfer money to.

      Yes, it's hard to reconcile that claim with another claim in the article:
      'Apple also says that it’ll use machine learning and Apple Maps to label stores that you use in the app, and use that data to track purchases across categories like “food and drink” or “shopping.” '

      They can track your use without knowing anything about your use! Some deep magic there! Perhaps this is the start of Tim Cook's attempt to develop a reality distortion field?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:22AM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:22AM (#820534) Journal

        Perhaps this is the start of Tim Cook's attempt to develop a reality distortion field?

        Let's be frugal in our expectations, lest he disappoints.
        Let say "a distortion field" for now and let the "reality" for later.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:38PM

      by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @07:38PM (#820898)

      That's not even the best part...

      The company also promises that "Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties for marketing and advertising."

      Translation: "Darth Vader has personally promised that the Empire will leave Bespin alone, and not place a garrison there."

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Wednesday March 27 2019, @01:23AM (4 children)

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @01:23AM (#820437)

    You know what the nice thing about regular credit cards is? You don't have to buy a fucking iPhone first. Or "smart"phone. Or even use a web site unless you are really too impatient to wait for the printed monthly statement.

    Of course good old American cash is better. You can easily tell when you spent too much when your wallet becomes empty. :P

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by Whoever on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:23AM

      by Whoever (4524) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:23AM (#820478) Journal

      Of course good old American cash is better. You can easily tell when you spent too much when your wallet becomes empty. :P

      I only use cash to buy weed. In fact, since it was legalized, I have used more cash than in prior years.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:12PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:12PM (#820644) Journal

      Dear Apple,

      I don't have an iPhone. Yet I have an endless stream of Rewards type high limit credit card offers arriving almost daily in the mail.

      I wish I could make them stop. It would save me, and my poor scissors from being too dull.

      Of course good old American cash is better.

      It doesn't pay you back some percentage. Or free airline frights. Or Disney Dollars. Or Amazon Rewards.

      --
      What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
      • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:48PM (1 child)

        by SomeGuy (5632) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:48PM (#820707)

        It doesn't pay you back some percentage. Or free airline frights. Or Disney Dollars. Or Amazon Rewards.

        It also does not gouge sellers for processing fees, causing prices to go up, which is where those "cash back as long as you spend it how we want you to get used to spending it" bonuses comes from.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @04:27PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @04:27PM (#820738) Journal

          Yep. I understand how that works. I even explained it in another post.

          The problem is if I don't take advantage of it, then I'm subsidizing the people who do.

          I WILL have to pay the retailer's higher prices inflated by CC processing fees. No matter what. So I might as well get the benefits of using the system.

          As for politics: We should get rid of corruption. Or alternately create more opportunity to participate in it.

          --
          What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by looorg on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:20AM

    by looorg (578) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:20AM (#820454)

    So it's another one of their "life style" products that their selected target demographics audience just won't be able to live without. They are not really a tech company anymore, they are now selling a lifestyle. To be honest tho they have probably been doing that for quite a while now.
    It's another one of them below spec, shitty products that are not bought for being state of the art, or even remotely worth the money compared to a similar product, but instead are bought to signal whom you are to others -- they are little status symbols much more then they are great products. Just like your normal onyx/titanium/platinum/whateverelsesoundscool credit cards -- they are there to signal money, influence and that you are important.

    So there you are with your Power Mac, your iPad, your iPhone and you paid for them all with your iCreditCard like the good little iConsumer that you are. Next stop the Apple News+ echochamber where they'll tell you about the great news that you just paid for.

    Remember when Apple just made computers and an operating system ... Pepperidge Farm remembers ...

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:14AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:14AM (#820474)

    The article says no late fees. That's a big plus if you're like me and forget minor bills occasionally.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:24AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:24AM (#820479)

    I've never paid attention to them, do they charge enough money their services don't need to be subsidized by advertisers?

  • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:27AM

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @03:27AM (#820481) Journal
    Boy, I hope I don't have to shred that thing. At least, it doesn't have any information (aside from whatever is hiding in the chip).
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:08AM (12 children)

    by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:08AM (#820501) Homepage Journal

    Cash-back is a scam. "Hey, give me a hundred bucks, and I'll give you two of them back, what a deal!"

    The credit card companies are taking this out of their merchant fees, and the merchants have to cover those fees in their prices. So they're just giving you your own money back. And no late fees? Who needs them - they'll be charging you interest on your increased balance.

    If Apple really wanted to revolutionize the market, they wouldn't issue a Mastercard. Mastercard and Visa (two faces of the same coin) won't let anyone seriously revolutionize the market, because there's far too much money at stake. A revolutionary card would slash the merchant fees, and encourage merchants to pass the discounts on to their customers.

    Why governments haven't gone after Mastercard/Visa for abuse of their monopoly, I really don't understand. And they are a monopoly: most banks issue both, and the terms for the cards are essentially identical - there is zero competition between them.

    --
    Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bradley13 on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:17AM (3 children)

      by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:17AM (#820503) Homepage Journal

      Oh, and the interest rates: "APR rates ranging from 13.24 percent to 24.24 percent based on credit". What's not to like? I mean, Freddie the loan shark uses similar rates. By eliminating late fees, of course, they are encouraging people to carry a permanent balance.

      I just checked a local organization that advertises "easy loans" on TV - they're a bit better than your payday loan places - and they charge between 7.9% and 9.9%. Anyone paying 15%-20% for a loan is just...well, they probably shouldn't be handling their own money.

      --
      Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 2) by sgleysti on Wednesday March 27 2019, @01:52PM (2 children)

        by sgleysti (56) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @01:52PM (#820628)

        What crime is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of one?

        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 27 2019, @09:44PM (1 child)

          by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @09:44PM (#820975)

          Founding a bank is a criminally stupid misuse of funds : Religions and universities get tax-exempt status.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 28 2019, @01:10PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 28 2019, @01:10PM (#821281)

            oh bullshit, bank gets to:
            - loan you a 1000 dollars
            - while having 15 dollars (the required reserve ratio is 1.5% last in our wonderfull fractional reserve system last time I checked)
            - yet charge you interest on the full 1000 dollars

            tax exempt status is good but does not beat that kind of legal fraud

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:12PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 27 2019, @12:12PM (#820584)

      Why governments haven't gone after Mastercard/Visa for abuse of their monopoly, I really don't understand.

      Visa political contributions in USA: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000029689&cycle=2018 [opensecrets.org]

      Mastercard political contributions in USA: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000022099&cycle=2018 [opensecrets.org]

      This is just direct contributions. Visa appears to have a PAC (political action committee) as well; I didn't check Mastercard.

      What's sad is not that our "representatives" can be bribed, it's that they can be had for such a low price.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:23PM (6 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @02:23PM (#820650) Journal

      Cash-back is a scam. "Hey, give me a hundred bucks, and I'll give you two of them back, what a deal!"

      I beg to differ.

      I don't give the CC companies a hundred bucks.

      The credit card companies are taking this out of their merchant fees,

      That's how the CC companies make their money.

      and the merchants have to cover those fees in their prices. So they're just giving you your own money back.

      Almost right. They're giving me back OTHER PEOPLE's money.

      I pay $100 for an item at Walmart. I get, say 3% back.

      You pay $100 cash for an item at Walmart. You get nothing back.

      Who is subsidizing who?

      As you said, YOU are paying to cover MY cc's merchant fees built in to the retail price.

      And no late fees?

      I never have any late fees. Or any interest. We promptly pay off our CCs, even before the due date -- we don't want that money sitting in our checking account looking like it hasn't been spent yet.

      We never buy anything on CC that we aren't prepared to write a check for or pay cash for this very instant.

      But we do use CCs to buy any and everything we possibly can. Utility bills. Fuel. Groceries. Ice cream cones.

      You described it as a con, and you are correct. But those getting conned, or rather robbed are those who pay cash.

      Sorry, it's just how the system works. I go to Disney sometimes multiple times a year. I get one or 1.5 of my flights for free. We usually get a few hundred disney dollars. We also build up Amazon dollars and when it gets over $100 we start thinking about spending it.

      A red Target card gives you back 5% right at the check out register -- for doing NOTHING but paying using their card. (And then paying promptly before they even send you a bill.)

      Clue: I can buy a couple thousand dollars of Disney Gift Cards at Target -- and get 5% off at the register. The 5% off of a couple thousand dollars is real actual money that I just saved. Those disney cards are then used at check in time to pay at the resort.

      --
      What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
      • (Score: 1) by sveldkamp on Wednesday March 27 2019, @05:37PM (3 children)

        by sveldkamp (6064) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @05:37PM (#820795)

        "a couple thousand dollars... I just saved"

        You think you saved while spending thousands of dollars, which makes it very hard to believe you aren't spending more to get the cash back.
        You could take a cheaper vacation, but the credit card companies have this great cash back scheme they've sold you on.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:44PM (2 children)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:44PM (#820852) Journal

          Did you actually read what I wrote?

          I'm going to Disney World. I'm going to pay X amount to check in to the resort. They accept Disney gift cards as payment. I realize that once I buy these cards, Disney is earning interest on them until I spend them. Thus I don't buy the cards until very close to my trip.

          So far, no problem right? I'm not getting any cash back. I'm spending exactly the amount as if I would pay cash when I check into the resort.

          I have to buy the Disney gift cards somewhere, so I'll buy them at Target. Why? Because if I buy them on my Target red card, I get 5% off at the cash register. This has nothing to do with Disney. If I buy Diet Coke at Target, I also get 5% off at the register using my Target card. Got that?

          I don't know what "cash back scheme" you're talking about. The 5% off is very real. I pay off my Target card, and NEVER have any late fees, nor any interest. Ever. Never ever. I also don't use my Target card (or any credit cards) unless I'm prepared to pay hard cash right now!

          So what exactly are you talking about?

          At Target, I can buy any kind of gift card, and get 5% off at the register. But where that really matters is when I'm going to spend big on gift cards. I'm probably never going to buy a single iTunes gift card -- let along several thousand dollars worth. But if I did, I would still get 5% off if I pay with my red card. Does that make sense?

          > You could take a cheaper vacation

          Yes, but that is completely irrelevant.

          Even without that 5% from Target, I would not take a different vacation. I'm buying that vacation because it is what I want. Just like I choose to buy chocolate ice cream instead of roadkill flavor ice cream.

          Now getting a few hundred bucks free Disney dollars from a Disney Chase Visa card might make some difference in how often I would go. And not getting a free flight or so from a Southwest Chase Visa might make a difference in whether I would take ANY vacation at all.

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          What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
          • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 27 2019, @10:13PM (1 child)

            by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @10:13PM (#820994)

            Well, instead of paying an extra 6% to subsidize your 5% discount, I just buy the stuff online, where they charge an extra 3% to cover my 2% cash back CC.
            Target's price ends up higher, so they lose customers, and the city bitches that it gets empty storefronts.

            Of course the people without CC just subsidize us all, except that they bother to go coupon-hunting, so they think I'm subsidizing them.

            Glory to the system that makes you believe that you're always shafting someone else, and rests on making you fear you'll lose everything!

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 28 2019, @03:04PM

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 28 2019, @03:04PM (#821339) Journal

              I would never spend the effort to do coupon-ing.

              Simply using CCs and paying them is pretty easy. How hard is that? My utility bills are on auto-pay to the CC.

              Buy groceries use CC. Buy fuel, use CC. Buy Target, use Target CC. Buy Walmart, use CC. Buy Amazon, use Amazon CC. Etc.

              Just don't buy things you wouldn't write a check for right now.

              --
              What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by MindEscapes on Wednesday March 27 2019, @05:53PM (1 child)

        by MindEscapes (6751) on Wednesday March 27 2019, @05:53PM (#820815) Homepage

        While I do this as well, it really is another way we rob the poor to pay the rich.

        All of those people unable to get reliable credit that have to use cash and cash card equivalents are paying more so that you, who are financially stable enough to get reasonable credit, can get a discount.

        --
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        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:53PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 27 2019, @06:53PM (#820862) Journal

          it really is another way we rob the poor to pay the rich.

          Yes, it absolutely is. That is why I point it out every chance it is on topic.

          The system is rigged. I'm taking advantage of how it works.

          I use CC's like crazy. I never borrow money on them. I immediately pay them off every few days. I don't buy anything that I wouldn't write a check for. I'm only buying things I ordinarily would buy. Food. Fuel. Utilities. A new USB-C cable. Etc. I never have late fees. I never pay interest. I have no annual fee.

          I'm also telling other people how it works. BUT . . . if you're going to pay this game, you better have the discipline to NOT buy things you cannot afford. If you are ever borrowing a single cent on a credit card -- YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG !!!

          All of those people unable to get reliable credit that have to use cash and cash card equivalents are paying more

          A couple decades ago, I was one of those people.

          --
          What can be done to stop bloggers from using the wrong color schemes?
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