from the Superfungi-is-the-name-of-my-grunge-rock-band dept.
[...] In 2013, researchers at Michigan State University carried out a thankless, if mildly creepy, study. They observed how more than 3,500 residents of their college town used the sink at various restrooms after they carried out their business.
Some 10 percent of people observed chose not to wash their hands at all, which is simply not an acceptable way to end a trip to the bathroom. But even the vast majority of people who tried to wash their hands managed to totally flub the proper routine. Almost a quarter of people washed their hands without soap, for instance. And only 5 percent washed their hands for at least 15 seconds or longer, which is actually lower than the 20-second minimum of handwashing recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
https://gizmodo.com/in-a-world-of-mrsa-and-superfungi-you-need-to-start-wa-1833889953
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:29PM (13 children)
MRSA and superfungi are being bred in the hospitals, not college campuses. Stray away from the hospital and you'll be fine.
(Score: 2) by Snow on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:40PM (1 child)
Yeah! The colleges are only breeding super-gonorrhea and super-chlamydia.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:19PM
But how come I've never went to college and still got both of those diseases? You telling me there's a secret college near my home?!
(Score: 3, Touché) by ikanreed on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:42PM (7 children)
Yes, why would deadly hard-to-treat diseases end up in a hospital?
There must be a reason. It's not like people from all over would just... bring it there with them. That'd be crazy. Gotta be the employees.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:48PM (6 children)
Because in hospitals there's a lot of exposure to antibiotics, which allows them to build up resistance against those.
(Score: 5, Informative) by ikanreed on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:15PM (4 children)
industrial sources dominate origin of antibacterial resistant strains in natural environments [sciencedirect.com]
Of course hospitals have them, and of course some strains originate in hospitals, but overwhelmingly the implication has been that antibiotic abuse, not antibiotic use, has been the primary cause of the problem [asm.org].
People with multi-resistant cases sometimes get them from medical sources. But Working on a farm that administers antibiotics to lifestock increases the risk of infection with MRSA 35 times the baseline rate [nih.gov].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:29PM (3 children)
Cuba: no "antibiotic abuse" to speak of, yet resistant microbes are there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3024002/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Friday April 12 2019, @01:32AM (2 children)
Did you read your paper?
Because that's not the fucking conclusion of that paper you just linked. Their assertion is that broad pollution levels, not just antibiotic pollution levels are determinate of AR levels in natural bacteria.
I'll let their own final paragraph hammer home exactly what they think:
So... YA RLY, I guess.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 12 2019, @01:23PM (1 child)
Broad pollution levels != antibiotic abuse. Sounds like the paper confirms the AC's claim.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Friday April 12 2019, @02:36PM
Only if you take their claim to be a generic null hypothesis of a grossly oversimplified version of my claim.
But they're pretty clearly asserting, in the context of the conversation, that hospitals are at fault. That is not in line with the state of the literature. Even being generous that they're merely trying to refute what I said, they did intentionally ignore that I qualified what I said with phrases like "dominate sources" and "Of course hospitals have them, and of course some strains originate in hospitals".
So their refutation was a "here's an sort-of not-really exception to a thing you've said can't be overgeneralized"
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:22PM
Aye, that and plenty of BS modern cleaning solutions and practices.
Back in the good old days, hospitals only had carbolic soap [wikipedia.org] in the toilets, used to wash the ward surfaces with proper strong bleaches and pine disinfectants, and the public areas washed with Jeyes Fluid [wikipedia.org].
Hospitals used to smell 'clean', people who visited someone in hospital came back smelling of the various bleaches, disinfectants etc they'd encountered there, now (well, at least two years ago when I had a brief stay¹ in the local one²) it's the fucking hospital that stinks of the visitors after visiting hours...go figure.
--
¹ For the record, I did pick up a wound infection at the hospital after minor(ish) surgery, as the hospital apparently wasn't bothered, I fucking killed it myself with fire (well, Betadine, 99.9% Isopropanol, a mild bleach solution and a strict wound management regime..)
² A 'modern' 1970's monstrosity which replaced a rather nice airy, clean Victorian one which I had the (mis)fortune to have spent a week in back in the early 70's for some major surgery, and had to visit on multiple other occasions back then with broken limbs (skateboards...fun times...)
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:44PM (1 child)
Right, because microbes don't spread. The doctors, nurses, orderlies, patients, etc. who are daily exposed to various "supergerms" bred by grossly irresponsible cleanliness and medical practices all spend the rest of their lives within the hospital, and never carry any supergerms out into the rest of the world.
Also - who said anything about supergerms? Normal microbes will bring you to your knees just fine. "Supergerms" only have an advantage once you've already gone to the hospital and been put on antibiotics. Evolution is on their side after all - they easily get tens of thousands of generations of evolution for our every one. The only thing that lets us survive at all with our archaic, outdated cellular processes is that our bodies are completely colonized by many symbiotic microbes that evolve just as fast, and vigorously defend their territory against environmental destruction. Our (genetically related) immune systems are little more than dedicated shock troops sent in to help turn the tide when the peasants can't do it on their own.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:41PM
Any carbon atom and ATP molecule that goes into producing resistance factors, is taken from the ultimate goal: replication. Spend resources on unnecessary defence, get outcompeted by every other cell around you.
On top of it, bacterial genes mutate. A lot. Without selective pressure to cull out all the dud variants, what gets selected for is whatever's cheapest to produce. Free market at its finest. :)
(Score: 1) by LAV8.ORg on Saturday April 13 2019, @05:21AM
When I was in college, the bio lab had a shiny new PCR machine. Some students swabbed an assortment of commonly touched surfaces on campus and found MRSA on several of them (door handles and credit card keypads IIRC). And mind you this was a tiny school, so the most touched surfaces would've seen at most hundreds of hands in a given day, and there was nothing above undergrad studies, so no proper med students shuttling organisms.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:44PM (6 children)
How long until some people claim that washing your hands causes autism or similar?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Freeman on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:53PM
https://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/publications-data-stats.html [cdc.gov]
How about just some plain soap and water? That way we don't keep breeding anti-bacterial resistant strains.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:56PM (1 child)
The first guy to suggest doctors should wash their hands was ridiculed by them and thrown in an insane asylum where he was beaten to death:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis [wikipedia.org]
Do not fuck with doctors, they can be quite evil little beings.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:04PM
And the bastards "washed their hands" of the outcome, didn't they!?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday April 12 2019, @02:25AM (2 children)
Well, it certainly causes a less robust immune system than not washing them. Me, I prefer somewhere in between filth and sterility. Saves time and keeps me from having to go to the doctor unless I get injured.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 12 2019, @02:33PM (1 child)
The problem with sucked like this is that washing your hands is a kind of deal with the devil. Most of the bacteria you wash or kill via hand soap are perfectly fine to have on your skin. By excessive washing you remove probs of your immune system hoping to also remove the small number of bacteria that have harmful byproducts.
The folks doing the rinse are doing it right in most cases. It's not enough if you've dropped a deuce and touched all that stuff, but it's fine after having taken a leak.
Trying to keep anything sanitize for long is a folks errand and should really be reserved for times when you're putting your hands in your body or touching many people.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday April 12 2019, @06:38PM
I dunno about you but I prefer not to touch shit with my hands, so I use toilet paper. Otherwise I'd still be a plumber. The pay was pretty damned good.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:44PM (11 children)
After dinner at a restaurant with my uncle (20 years ago), I grabbed a mint from a bowl on the way out. Before I could start sucking on it, my uncle reported a university study, looking at what was on the surface of mints in a similar situation. Turns out there were more than just trace amounts of urine -- pretty clearly people hadn't washed their hands after peeing, then fished around in the mint bowl...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:00PM (2 children)
I can't remember seeing mints in a restaurant that were not individual wrapped.
Now there are pretzles / peanuts in a bar -- but I don't go to bars.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:18PM (1 child)
> ...peanuts in a bar -- but I don't go to bars.
Local brew pub has good food (and I might have a beer with dinner). They have free peanuts, roasted in the shell so you have to pop them open yourself. Seems fairly sanitary? Shells go on the floor.
I love to take parents with kids there, the kids love to throw the shells on the floor, while the parents blanch or tsk-tsk.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:25PM
I have enjoyed eating at a local brewery occasionally. As for peanuts in the shells . . . Five Guys burgers.
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(Score: 2) by Snow on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:01PM (2 children)
I'm a nail-biter. I touch door handles, counters, and other common areas, then stick my fingers in my mouth and gnaw on my nails. All that stuff that was on the handle/counter/etc is now in my mouth.
...and then I dig around for the mints... with my slobbery hands. I always go for the ones at the bottom of the dish too.
Did you know some people that work at restaurants don't wash their hands properly? Did the subway worker wash their hands after handling money? Did you co-worker get shit on their hands then not wash them and then open the door with their shit-hands?
If you think about hygiene too much you'll go crazy.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:27PM
> If you think about hygiene too much you'll go crazy.
Cause and effect reversed they can be.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @06:01PM
> I'm a nail-biter.
I was until about age 30. (long ago)
Now I'm just sayin' . . . it is my personal experience, I don't know why these two things are strongly connected in my mind.
I switched to a Southern Baptist church, played piano in early service. After a while I noticed I had stopped biting. Was a lot less stressed out. More calm. I was surprised. But never went back to biting even after eventually moving and going to other churches. (Also I'm a preacher's kid) I don't know why I connect these two things together.
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(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday April 12 2019, @02:27AM (4 children)
I wouldn't worry about the mints. Your keyboard is a whole lot nastier than anything else you'll ever come in contact with unless you have children or are a plumber.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 12 2019, @01:18PM
Maybe. But I don't put my keyboard into my mouth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 12 2019, @02:48PM (2 children)
For those of us who clean our keyboard once in a while, it is not nasty at all. It only takes a couple minutes to clean, and I'm surprised more people don't do it.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday April 12 2019, @06:40PM
Yes. Yes, it is. It is in fact worse than your toilet seat. Much worse. Yes, even if you clean it once in a while.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by toddestan on Wednesday April 17 2019, @03:08AM
The problem with the keyboard is that it's really hard to properly clean (and have it still work after). Way too many nooks and crevices and inaccessible areas. It's not like a countertop which can wiped down with a strong cleaner easily.
With that said, I'm not too concerned with my keyboard, since it's mostly my germs on it. It's others keyboards and shared workstations that are a bit gross.
I would imaging computer mice would also be just as bad. Especially since so many of them place a seam where the top and bottom parts come together in a location that's pretty much guaranteed to get grime in it. And the less that's said about the mouse wheel the better.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Type44Q on Thursday April 11 2019, @03:59PM (4 children)
As my junk tends to be a lot cleaner than a public restroom, I wash my hands before I touch myself. ;)
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:07PM
Kindergarten teacher was big on asking us kids to wash hands after using the toilet. One day I told her proudly that I would wash before and after, to keep my "pee-pee" clean too. She gave me a very odd look...so I didn't talk about that subject again!
Funny the things we remember from childhood...
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:09PM (1 child)
Yes, when using some restrooms1 to pee, I have sometimes wondered if my junk is cleaner than the facilities and consider whether or not washing is the best idea. But that has been very rare. On vacations I have hand sanitizers and disinfecting wipes available. Usually these are used to wipe hands before eating. But, I suppose in a pinch you can walk into a restroom, pee and walk out without having touched anything. Maybe your elbow to hit the urinal flusher.
Which brings me to Disney, where people with arthritis can ride scooters, and restrooms are generally in good condition.
1Americans are unable to say 'toilets'.
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(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday April 12 2019, @02:29AM
It's true. I say 'shitters'. Or if I'm in polite company, 'outhouses'.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by TrentDavey on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:55PM
I don't wash my hands after peeing since "I" can get in and out without having to grab any part of my body.
Hmm.. maybe all the other guys are a lot bigger than I am. Now I have hand-washing envy :( .
Oh, and I also learned at an early age not to pee all over my hands and fingers.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:08PM (13 children)
There are well-known solutions to this: copper/brass touch surfaces, air-filtering UVC fixtures (shielded of course!), good ol' bleach, and the list goes on. But infection prevention doesn't make people gobs and gobs of money like boner pills or statins or anything else they can force people onto for half a lifetime, so it's mostly not addressed except by the real front-line troopers, the nurses and CNAs and low-level doctors.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:23PM (10 children)
On the subject of boner pills . . .
I am not aware of anyone being forced to take boner pills for half a lifetime. Whether or not you need them, they are great. Don't knock them until you try them. Such a horrible drug to have to take in order to do extra . . . nevermind. Especially if your Dr. will write a script and insurance will pay. Now they're even generic. Your Dr. has samples to offer. Just ask and you will receive.
I have to feel sorry for half the population that cannot take them.
I avoid taking narcotic pain killers, but not boner pills.
How did people enjoy getting older in times past.
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(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:36PM (6 children)
Pretty sure a boner pill would do me no good at all due to anatomical concerns...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Snow on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:40PM
I don't have a vagina, but benefit from birth control...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:43PM (4 children)
I had considered that even as I wrote it. Your sig gives it away.
Years ago, I heard that if a female takes them it similarly affects the structure (clitoris) which would develop into a penis during gestation. Whether or not that effect would be desirable I cannot know. But asking your doctor probably wouldn't work.
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(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:09PM (3 children)
My understanding is that it's not at all helpful for women. Even for men, having an erection doesn't significantly impact either pleasure or psychological arousal, it just increases the range of activities that can be engaged in (which can admittedly have an indirect effect). Take one before watching a ball game or taking a math test, and you're just more prone to discomfort.
For men though that's typically enough - we rarely have trouble getting in the mood, it's just the physical response that some men have trouble with. (and of course the drugs can also be used to achieve superhuman stamina)
For women, the physical response is far more complicated, and while there have been some drugs developed that help with that aspect, for most women having difficulties the real problem is in not being able to get in the mood in the first place. Which sadly has thus far been far more resistant to pharmaceutical manipulation.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:43PM (2 children)
I can only speak about Cialis (generic: tadalafil). The physical response must already be working. It can only improve things. From what I am told (but do not have first hand knowledge) viagra kind of forces the issue, and only for four hours. Cialis works for almost 36 hours. So you can take it Friday evening and it's still good Sunday morning. It does not force the physical response to happen. Stimulation is still necessary. And the physical response must already be working for the drug to help. But help it does. Both in frequency and um ... responsiveness.
So if I were to ever develop an interest in watching organized sports events, I would not have any uncomfortable distractions. I am unlikely to ever take any more math tests -- but it would be kind of fun now compared to four decades ago taking a math test. But I wouldn't be hindered by any uncomfortable distractions simply due to the drug. It would require some physical or psychological stimulus.
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(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday April 11 2019, @06:32PM (1 child)
Indeed, I've heard good things about "weekenders". But throw in some attractive students or cheerleaders putting themselves on display, and you have to admit the potential for discomfort is at least enhanced.
My main point though is that sexual disfunction in women is sadly a far less easily tractable problem than for most men.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @06:42PM
Yes. And sadly it is not the only thing where women are at an unfortunate and unfair disadvantage. There are maybe some advantages, like not having a biological urge that powerfully invades your conscious thoughts in a driving way.
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(Score: 2) by Snow on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:39PM (1 child)
Further, they are frequently not covered by insurance so you often have to pay fully out of pocket.
Remember the outcry about birth control being covered by insurance? Where is the equality?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @04:50PM
It is probably a choice made by my employer. But I can assure that boner pills are in fact mostly paid for by insurance. The out of pocket cost is somewhat higher than other drugs, but not terrible. (Ironically, narcotic pain killers $5 / 30. Something seems wrong here?)
I had heard about an outcry that boner pills are paid by insurance but birth control is not. And THAT is very wrong. That probably fits with some people's religious views. Pay for men's boner pills, but don't allow abortions, and don't pay for birth control. Women should stay at home and pop out babies. Because we so desperatly need more. /s
A more sensible abortion law would be to allow abortions until the fetus is 18 AND can pass the SAT.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @08:09PM
They didn't. They died.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:59PM
don't forget the house keeping & janitorial staff, too.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Friday April 12 2019, @03:17AM
Nobody forces me to take a statin drug -- I take one because I unfortunately inherited genetic/familial hypercholesterolemia [wikipedia.org], and would rather not follow past generations of my mother's family who either died young before the right statin drugs existed or needed multiple-bypass surgery after starting the right drug in middle age. (Or in my grandmother's case, dying at age 39 during experimental bypass surgery.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:20PM (3 children)
The concern is poo, yes? OK, so you shouldn't get that on your hands anyway (toilet paper is provided) but how is that not going to contaminate the handles?
If you don't wash: your hands have poo from exactly 1 person, harmless to you
If you do wash: your hands contain poo from everybody who ever used the sink or door
There is one possible fix. After washing, leave the water running. Stay in the room until somebody else opens the door, or kick it down like a ninja.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @05:48PM (1 child)
The door handle. If it must be pulled, I tend to use the last two fingers (pinky-ring) of left hand to pull the handle open. At Disney most outdoor restrooms don't have any doors. Just a large U shaped entry way. Similarly at some airports no doors.
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(Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:45PM
Use the last paper towel you dried your hands with to open the door, block it open with your foot while throwing the wadded towel for 2 points.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:09PM
Or use a dry part of the paper towel, after drying your hands.
(Score: 2) by J_Darnley on Thursday April 11 2019, @06:23PM (3 children)
I've never seen a public toilet have actual soap. Then again I wouldn't handle a bar of soap in a public toilet.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 11 2019, @06:46PM (2 children)
I have never seen a bar of soap. It is always a gel-soap type dispenser. Push on the handle and a small handful of gel soap is dispensed into your hand.
Another type, but almost gone from existence is leaf soap. Push a button and a tiny paper like sheet of soap is dispensed into your hand.
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(Score: 2) by J_Darnley on Thursday April 11 2019, @08:56PM
Yeah, hand wash is no substitute for real soap. (Maybe it is good enough in the context of this article.) Use it several times in one day and it leaves some sort of residue on your hands, no matter how much you try to rinse it off. I can't wait to get home and use real soap when that happens.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday April 11 2019, @09:48PM
If only the liquid soap-like substance didn't smell slightly worse than the result of slapping a skunk's ass...